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The Journey - I appreciate what you are saying. It is hard to convey what I was trying to mean. But I have learned there needs to be a balance between "what is written" and what is "experienced." Just as you have had problems with people who rely too much on experience (OK, I've had those encounters, too), I have had encounters with people who have their noses so deep in the Bible they can't see two feet in front of them! It's also very hard when you have ten different people with ten different opinions - and all of them have their array of Scriptural references to back it up! So which one is correct? Well, why would not using something to measure the views against be a valid means of determining which is truth and which isn't? I practically grew up under charasmatic teaching, and, yes, I found out the hard way that a lot of fluff was being preached. And, yes, I have come to believe that we need to examine what we believe and why. I have been doing a lot of that in the past fifteen years or so, and I am still sorting things out. I just didn't want to express all I have been gathering together on these topics because then I knew I'd be stirring up even more of a hornet's nest. What I wanted to be conveyed was that just as having the "experience" of spiritual activity without the Scriptural knowledge and backing is dangerous, so having all the "knowledge" but not having put the knowledge to use and having it work is - well - what? It's like this, would you want to learn how to drive from someone who has the Driver's manual memorized but has never driven on the highway, from someone who has been driving for years and years on various roads and in various conditions (assuming they have been driving safely), or someone who has at least a reasonable knowledge of the driver's manual AND has been driving for years on the roads? Nothing is wrong with the Driver's manual, but what is written in the manual does not help me know what to do on the highway in rush hour traffic in all the varying situations that occur. This is where I rely on what my dad taught me from his experience on how to handle the car and get through traffic. Does that make more sense?

Hoo-boy! We can start several new threads on what's been covered here. One thing I would like to ask of everyone involved in this debate right now: When you post your position of spiritual warfare, binding and/or casting out demons, healings, etc., would you please indicate whether or not you have been involved with such spiritual activity? For instance, have you prayed healing over anyone who was healed? Have you had involvements with demonic forces, been a part of a delivrance ministry, gone on a mission trip to places like Africa where demonic activity is more out in the open? : I ask this because I have come to learn that in all matters in life, there is a big difference from "textbook" knowledge and "experiencial" knowledge. I mean, I can appreciate those of you who take a strict position of "If it is not specifically laid out in the Word, it is not so." But, if you comapare the Old Testament with the New Testament, you will notice that the way things were understood in the days of the Patriarchs is different than the way things were understood in the days of the kings, which is different than the way things were understood in the New Testament times. (i.e. Are demons mentioned in the Old Teatament at all? A new understanding must have been given sometime between the writings of the Old and New Testaments.) I believe we too have been given new understandings. I am not saying that what is written is wrong or invalid - please do not read this that way. I am just pointing out that the people of that time were of a different culture in a different time with different understandings in general. If you have the chance to research early church history, you will notice that Christianity went through a change as the power center of the Church moved from the hands of the Jews to the hands of the Gentiles (after the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed, the center of Christianity moved to Ephesus originally; the move to Rome came later). You see, the Gentiles were heavily influenced by the Greco-Roman belief system. Greek philosophy caused many problems with the late first century, second century, and third century churches (the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds were written as a means to combat some of these problems). All that for a perspective understanding. AFAIK, Jesus is the first person to have cast out demons. He gave this authority to His disciples. But as people have been involved with casting out demons, and as those involved with pagan religions and the spiritual leaders of such - i.e. witch-doctors or other religious leaders, witchcraft, sorcery, satanism, or any other form of activity that can be associated with demons - have repented and come to Christ and have been able to share what they used to do, more knowledge of curses and demonic activity have come to light. And when people out on the mission field in places like Africa or areas still led by witch-doctors and such come back and say such-and-such happened with regards to demonic activity, and "this" is what produced results and "this" did not, I believe they would know better than what I could from researching "what is written" without the experience. Same goes for people involved with deliverence ministries. Does that make sense? ***** One word I would like to add about healing. Remember the accounts in Scripture where Jesus could not heal in certain towns or had to take a person outside of the town in order to heal him? It was not about individual belief, per se, but because there was so much unbelief in the town as a whole it made such ministry difficult. We live in a country that believes in science more than it does in God, or even the spiritual realm. Overcoming the doubt of the land is a big obstacle to overcome! I know of people who over here have prayed for healing over others with little or no results. But when they went on a mission trip to places like India or the former Eastern block countries, people they were praying over for healing were being healed right and left! This is why I am believing the faith of the land has a lot to do with the end results. Peace!

True, bu-u-u-u-u-t: I interract with scientist (logical thinkers, reasoners) who do not know they are evil, do not know they need God, do not even believe there is a God (can't prove a god exists, you know). Then there are the agnostics of varrying degree - from the possibility of a supreme or spiritual being existing to there definantly is one and there is an afterlife, but beyond being a good person there is no method to follow. I also have a friend who chose Buddhism: God exists, she prays to "Him," but in her mind God is unknowable and undefinable. All religious beliefs have merit, but there is no one that is more "right" than the other. ** These are the kinds of people I have to deal with on a regular basis. How can you "catch someone in sin" (something by which they see the need to repent) when they either reject the Bible's authority or have convinced themselves they are a good person or even if you could make them realize they are caught they still cannot believe that Jesus is the source of redemption? So, you know, witnessing by laying on the commands of God or presenting "the four laws of salvation" or any other "tried and true method" that I have heard of just do not work! :uhh:

rafter - Exactly!! (with regards to "witnessing" to "believers" - we can call them church-goers, religious folk, people who believe in God but never do anything with or about it, complacent or casual Christians, Christians who are still very worldly, etc., etc., etc.) Yes, His interactions with Gentiles were few, but of course, there were very few Gentiles in the area for Him to interract with! What I am looking at is the interractions He did have. I believe there was significance to those interractions. I wonder if the testimony of the man from the Gaderenes helped in preparing the way for the Gospel that was soon to come? About the line of giving bread to the dogs, I believe He was making a point with her. What do you suppose she believed about the gods of her land verses the God of Israel? What did she believe about who or what Jesus is? Did Jis reaction to her challenge any of her beliefs with regards to any of these points? What did His initial reaction to her cause her to do? Is it possible that He turned His back on her as a means of provoking faith out of her? (The video series Matthew shows it this way. When she replied about the dogs eating the crumbs, you could almost see Him thinking, "YESSS!!! She got it!) What do you suppose the impact of Him receiving her faith had on her? Well, have fun with the grandkids! :il: It's OK if you take a while, but I am glad you are looking into it.

I was thinking I should add something. I had heard a teaching about the story of the man from the Gaderenes from an historical-cultural perspective. You see, that was a Gentile land. According to this teaching, the people there were Baal-worshipers. Baal was the god of nature. Before Jesus landed on the shore, what did He do? Calmed a storm. (His power was greater than that of Baal.) Then He cast out the demon of a man whom no one could control. (Showing His power and authority again.) Also, according to this teaching, pigs were used as sacrificial animals for them. So, by casting the demons into the pigs, that was another afront to Baal. This would explain why the people of that region demanded Jesus to leave. (Note, He never spoke a word against the religion of Baal - I guess He didn't have to; He just proved through His actions that He was greater!) So, does that give you a better idea of the kind of thoughts I was coming from? (BTW, the teaching came from a Focus On the Family video series.)

Well, I want people to investigate for themselve ans not just evaluate what I say. So, I'll put it this way. When Jesus spoke with the Gentiles (the few that He did, I know), did He bring to light their sin or argue doctrine, or did He interact with them in a way that challenged their belief in religion or who He really was? (OK, I'm not wording it in the way I want this to come across, but I'm not sure how to word it correctly. )

What I am thinking of is the difference He related to the Jews, those who knew the Law - even if in sin (Zaccheus, the Pharisees and Sadducees, Herod - yes, he was a Jew - the rich young ruler, Niccademus, etc.) versus the Gentiles who did not know the Law (the centurian, the Canaanite/Phoenician woman whose daughter was possessed, the Gadarene man who was possesed by Legion).

Here's another way to look at it. In God's eyes, the land of Canaan belonged to the Israelites. It was theirs! But they still had to go in and possess the land through physical force. The Lord gave them victory in all they did (with the exception of where there was sin in the camp or were deceived into making a deal with an enemy without having sought the Lord on it or when they decided to quit before all the land was taken - lessons to learn here). So, yes, the victory is ours. No, wait - THE VICTORY IS THE LORD'S! He's already won it, but He still calls us to go forth and possess the land. We are His hands and feet here on Earth, we are His ambassaders. We are called to advance God's Kingdom. So, don your spiritual armor (Eph. 6) and go into battle!

I don't remember how I got started on this, but I was looking through the Gospels with particular interest in the difference between how Jesus interracted with the Gentiles vs. how He interracted with the Jews. I am thinking I am seeing a difference. So, here's the challenge. Does anyone else notice a difference, and can you describe that difference? With that in mind, how should we be witnessing and ministering to non-believers? (I'm a better observer than I am an interpreter, so I am having a little difficulty piecing this together as I would like to.)

Tatie - I believe you need to check out this thread. http://www.worthyboards.com/board....=4;t=12 Bottom line, there is a spiritual realm and you need to be very careful how you approach it and what you do within it. Point to ponder: the name "Satan" means "deceiver." Please consider carefully.

You're welcome! Glad I could help. :a2:

Well, it began a long time ago whe the Church began to be institutionalized. . . .

Some may see symbolism in this.

I've seen this being discussed other place (can't recall where). But there are two explanations. 1) "Three days and three nights" is an expression. (For instance, when we say "It is raining cats and dogs, we don't mean cats and dogs are falling out of the sky!) 2) If you read the passages, you will see mentioned the "High Sabbath." My memory is hazy on this, but that had to do with the Passover, that there was a special day or period within the Passover time. It could be that Jesus was crucified On the day before this High Sabbath which was Thursday or Friday - whatever it works out to. If that is the case, He was actually crucified on on a Wednesday or Thursday. Then somehow over time tradition made the day of rememberance to be on Friday (just like Dec. 25 is not really the day Jesus was born, but that is when it began to be celebrated).

Umm...err...uh...hmmm....there's a difference between "putting hands and feet to your prayers" and putting reliance on yourself to get the task done. Prayer is ultimately putting your dependance on the Lord. What this person is saying sounds more like ultimately my dependance is on me. The expression "God helps those who help themselves," came from Benjamin Franklin - a deist (the belief that God was like a watchmaker; He created the universe and then let it go and do its own thing, never more to interfere with its processes). We know this philosophy is false. In this light, I would have to disagree with the above statement. (P.S. Kind of reminds me of when Aaron's two sons offered their own fire on the altar. The Lord was not pleased with this Anyway, something to think about.)

Funny you should mention D-Z. My brother started watching that show, and curiosity got the better of me. I'll be honest and say I have mixed feelings about the show. On the negative side, there is the violence, the reliance on "self", Goku is the world's savior time and time again (actually, he is called "Earth's Hero"), and the heavy Eastern religion influence (focusing your energy and stuff like that). One minor character (seen in only a few episodes) is a witch who rides a crystal ball and has the power to bring a dead person to "life" for a day. Another character is "a dirty old man" - but on the bright side he is continuously punished for this (if only he'd learn and change!). The dragonballs themselves are "magic" objects that when brought together call forth "The Eternal Dragon," an all-powerful being who can grant any wish. Oddly enough, though, the Holy Spirit has spoken to me through this show! Go figure! The interesting thing about Goku is that he has a heart full of mercy. Many enemies who were bent on destroying him he had the chance to kill, but allowed them a second chance. Often the bad guy would take advantage of this. But with at least two of the characters (Picallo and Vegeta), this show of mercy paid off, as both later became allies - even friends - and became one of the good guys. (And they both started as heartless evil beings.) Picallo actually learned to love through Goku's son, Gohan, as Picallo began to train him for battle while Goku was away (long story). Vegeta went through a much longer transformation, as he had to learn that Goku's greater power came not through excessive training or such (Vegeta's motive was always selfish - he was obsessed with being superior) but because Goku fought out of love - to protect the earth from destruction and especially to protect his family and friends. Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. This he does many times over. Likewise, there are several characters that become better people (or creatures) because of Goku's influence. He never holds a grudge, even against former enemies, and only ends the lives of those he absolutely has to in order to save the lives of those the enemy would ruthlessly destroy (i.e. the entire population of earth). The show also has tons of humor, mostly innocent - and I need as much laughter as I can get! I normally do not like Jap-anime. Most of it has a "dark" feel to it. I don't know how or why I do not sense that from this show. The best you can do, really, is to seek the Lord about this. Maybe ask Him to show you some form of sign ("fleece") about this. You can also talk with your son about the spiritual aspects of the show, teaching him how to analyze for himself what he watches in the light of God. Hope this helps!

Hi, Kelly - I participate on an astronomy-related bulletin board from the badastronomy.com web site. We have a whole forum devoted to the myth of Planet X. I do not know what this other board is claiming about it, but the main claims are that it will be closest to Earth on May 11, 2003 or so, and that it will cause major havok. If such a planet existed, it would have to be within the range of "naked-eye" visibility within the solar system. (Brown dwarf or other type of planet, we would see the sun's light reflected off of it, just like Mercury,Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus.) Such an object in our solar system does not exist. Even if there were some government conspiracy to hide it, there is no way it could be hidden from the thousands? of amateur astronomers (every day citizen with a pair of binoculars or a telescope who view the night skies for fun). If you need some web resources that debunk Planet X, let me know and I'll PM them to you. ::

Some have interpreted these seven churches to prophetically be the church ages. That is, the characteristics of these seven churches can be seen predominantly within the last 2000 years in order. The church of Ephesus represented the early church where they started out on track, but over time lost sight of their first love (as the Gospel spread to the Gentiles, the Greek philosophies wreaked havoc on the faith of the believers). The church of Smyrna represented the age of persecution. And on down the list with the church of Laodicea being our current age - the lukewarm church (neither hot, that is springs of healing water, nor cold, that is springs of refreshing, but lukewarm, that is neither, ineffective and good for neither). Others interpret these seven churches to be symbolic of any church. That is, any given church will be an expression of any one of these. Thus, you can see individual churches that are full of zeal for the Lord but have lost track of just being in love with Jesus and enjoying Him (Ephesus). You can see Christians in persecuted lands even today (Smyrna). You can see churches that are devoted to Christ and those that are committed to service (such as the social gospel and service missionary work) but have compromised with the world and entertained sin in their lives and in their doctrine, such as the philosophy of "open-mindedness" or accepting homosexuality and lesbianism (Pergamum and Thyatira) - ::resisting mentioning certain denominations:: :x: . You can see churches that are nothing but dead religion (Sardis). You can see churches that are spreading the Gospel and advancing the Kingdom :il: (Philadelphia). And you can see the churches that are physically wealthy and honorable but spiritually depraved and sick (Laodicea). It is possible that the interpretation is a mixture of both. ****** BTW, catsmeow, I liked the name you had on "the other board." It reminded me of a song. There was a series of albums that came out in the '70's called Songs of Praise. One of the songs in this series was "The Spirit is a Movin'." (The Spirit is a movin' all over, all over this land). One of the verses went: Filled with the Spirit we are sent to serve, we are called as His brothers, we are called to work. Anyway, thought you'd appreciate that - and I thought it would be good to put my post back on the topic of this thread!

Wow! I just read "Giant Faith." This is a pretty impressive piece of work. Lanakila - there was something your husband mentioned in here that really, really struck me. (Background, I am a science major.)

passionatefury - Just pick-up your own English-version of the Koran and read it. My pastor did that, and he extracted all these passages about conversion-through-force. Muhammad was most definantly not a man of peace. But, to tell these folks, if you have the Koran with you, all you have to do is open it and show 'em. Make sense?

Ted - 't's OK! (Edit - I just noticed from another thread that you are in the military. I can see why you reacted as you did, misunderstanding though it was. Hey, I'm behind you all the way in this. I'd say "God be with you," but it seems silly to me to plea for something that God already promised He'd do - I'll never leave you nor forsake you!) Hey, if you haven't already, commit Psalm 91 to memory before you head out, OK? ) ****** You know, it was cool how Iman chanted the Shmah as they flew over Jerusalem and stuff like that while in orbit.

No, no, no! That's not what I meant. :uhh: I was thinking along the lines of symbolic or prophetic significance, not punishment. :x:

I just got this in an e-mail list report. Unfortunately, I cannot find a link to this info. I guess it isn't up yet. ********** Dozens of National Leaders Call for Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem Dr. Jack Hayford to Address National Gathering in New York City May 29 & 30, 2003 New York City "A number of Christian leaders from throughout America are calling for believers to gather in New York City for a Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem. One of America's most respected pastors, Dr. Jack Hayford, is scheduled to serve as the keynote speaker. Hayford states, “The issues regarding Israel and the Jewish community around the world we are seeing and hearing about every day, demonstrate that we are all in a critical hour in which the Church needs to be aware and informed in our intercession. I believe that our coming together to understand how to respond in prayer to these issues is both our timeless biblical mandate and our current responsibility.” Hayford is urging leaders to gather together in New York City for this event. In addition, it has been announced that Consul General of Israel, Ambassador Alon Pinkas, frequently seen on CNN, will be a featured part of the program. Co-chairing the event are Robert Stearns, Executive Director of Eagles' Wings, Dr. Friedhelm Radandt, President Emeritus of The Kings College, and Rev. Don Finto, Leader of the Belmont Family of Churches in Nashville, TN. Other participating organizations include the Billy Graham Association, Concerts of Prayer Greater New York, City Covenant Coalition, Pastor Walter Healy of Church of Grace and Peace, and Pastor Roger McPhail of New Hope Fellowship. Stearns says, “There has probably never been a more critical time for believers to gather together in prayer for Jerusalem. Many people mistakenly think of the troubles in the Holy Land as something far from home, but it is clear that Western civilization, and its Judeo-Christian roots are under extraordinary attack. The Church must unite as a House of Prayer in educated and informed intercession around what is probably the defining issue of this generation.” The event begins with a Prayer Banquet on Thursday evening at the Grand Hyatt in Manhattan. Friday there will be a Special Diplomatic Prayer Briefing at the Israeli Consulate hosted by Ambassador Pinkas for the leaders attending the event. At the same time, various plenary sessions will be occurring at the Empire State Building, taught by exerts on Israel, Islam, prayer, and various other issues regarding Christian response to the current state of the Middle East. The event is open to the public. Individuals interested in learning more are invited to contact Eagles' Wings at 1.800.519.4647 and request an information packet." Eagles' Wings website: http://www.eagleswings.to

Fabrice - I can tell you most assuredly, your dream was not of the devil. How do I know? The devil would never give you such a beautiful image of The Father and your heavenly home! If your father belongs to Jesus, he most certainly will not go to H*ll. Remember, things are not always what they seem in dreams. For instance, sometimes another person in a dream can be representative of some aspect of yourself or other things. I am making a guess, but your father in your dream could be representative (symbolic) of your life on earth or the power of your flesh or something along those lines. Does that make sense? If it helps, I too had a dream of my death. I haven't shared this with many people, but I believe it might help ease your thoughts and feelings. Well, I guess I'll be blunt. In my dream, I was martyred. There's two things that stick out to me about it. For background, I've never been afraid of death because I know what is on the other side, but I was terrified of the process (I do not like pain :uhh: ). But in my dream, all of a sudden there was Jesus and He carried me through the death - and I felt no pain at all! Wow! The second thing that got me was that when I awoke, I realized I no longer felt fear over the death process. It was completely gone! So, I would say your dream was from the Lord, and He was showing you something very special. Just remember what it was like for you when you heard The Father calling you home and treasure that in your heart. :il: