franciskelsey
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Posts posted by franciskelsey
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Bible doesn't say.
If John the Revelator was indeed the Apostle John and the elders consisted of some combination of Apostles and Patriarchs or faithful men and women from the Old Testament... then John would be seeing himself or there would be 23 elders.
We have enough to deal with on points the Bible is clear on. Speculation or building traditions of men on points the Bible is silent about is silly and a waste of time.
Thanks for the comments. I had thought of the fact John saw 24, thus not including himself, before but the response from some is John was seeing the 24 is a representation of the entire church and not necessarily 24 actual humans thus I had left that aspect out, but it does hold a good point any way.
I would agree with you in part on your second comment. The trouble for me is this. Many that have various doctrines use passages like these (the 24 elders) to make a case for their own doctrine. Thus, in doing so, their doctrine seems questionable from the start as scripture like this does not make anything concrete relating to doctrine. To me, that is why some off beat questions do become important. More so, when certain doctrine goes against what seems plain in the bible.
However, in the end, all intense, or heated debates are worthless if they do not include Jesus Christ is God, the only way to heaven, and the forgiver of sins. The whole purpose of being on this earth is to show Jesus, share Jesus, and hopefully be of service to God to draw others to the only family that matters in the end. Whoever is not part of Gods family, in the end, has no family.
God bless
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you make it sound like a bad thing that saints becomes angels, when with scripture we should syrely believe this to be so, John fell at the feet of an angel, and the angel said that he was of John's brethren the prophets :
Rev 22:8
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
4889 sýndoulos (from 4862 /sýn, "closely identified with" and 1401 /doúlos, "bond-slave") – properly, a fellow bond-servant (slave), belonging to the same master.
This is the implication. He, like John, was a servant, or slave, to Christ. It was relating a position of similarity and not of one stating equal with humans.
This can be known by knowing the roles the angels play. Created by God (Ne 9:6; Col 1:16) Worship God and Christ (Ph'p 2:9-11) and doing the will of God (PS 103:20; Matt 6:10)
Angels, just like stated already, are NEVER said to be saints that were transformed. In fact, they were created before man.
New Living Translation
The Lord Challenges Job
1Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:
2“Who is this that questions my wisdom
with such ignorant words?
3Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.
4“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
5Who determined its dimensions
and stretched out the surveying line?
6What supports its foundations,
and who laid its cornerstone
7as the morning stars sang together
and all the angelsa shouted for joy?
The Greek word used was translated seven times as servant but 181 times as angel, so most likely referring to an angel even more so when relating it to Revelation chapter 1:1 where servant is stated different from the word angel, however, He giveth more grace point could be justified by Revelation 6:11.
In any event, I hope all of the great responses from others help you understand saints do not become angels.
God bless
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you know this is your thread, so seeing that you brought it up, I find it amazing not amuzing that you would tear down a brother/sister in Christ as to find belittlement through laughter at their way of seeing scriptures, seeing that when "we go up" is not a salvational or gospel issue. *** edited out personal insults ***
I apologize disciple as my intent was not to offend. It was only a direct response to the above post in which it contained a pre trib view of the 24 elder. Based on that, I certainly found fit, even if not the wisest decision, to comment.
, I will paraphrase some scripture, such as Jesus said One will be left and another taken, see clearly if you understand the definition of resurrection is the raising of the dead or bringing up from the grave, this event Jesus is referring to; is taking up live people, and there is not even the first mention of any dead being raised, why for 1 thes, 4 clearly says during the taking up/rapure, the dead in Christ( not all the dead) were already raised at this point "then we which remain are taken up", and by this way of occurance this clearly can't be either the first or second/last resurrection spoken of from scriptures. also in 1 thes. 4 we can see that just the ones that are in Christ are raised."those that are asleep in Christ" the last day resurrection all the dead are raised. clearly two separate events,Though this topic should really be on another thread, and it is, I will briefly comment. Any further discussion on such should perhaps be on a newly or existing thread.
In Luke the story is in relation to the great flood and Sodom, which was one event and there was no seven year period after the fact. Also, Jesus will be very visible with no secret coming. Your implication on Thes. passage indicates you believe Paul and others were left behind in the first rapture, thus not being part of the church, though, they have already died. All dead are raised after the thousand years. This is the second resurrection. This is a blessed hope . I am glad through Christ we are counted worthy to be included in the first resurrection.
also one must clearly have some understanding of jewish ways and traditions to see some things clearly from scriptures, we can learn from Ester that in times past a future bride was set aside in the bride's chamber for weeks before the wedding and made over and perfumed and made ready for the marriage ceremony, so in order for the wedding to be ready, the bride would have already been separated, cleansed and purified for the BridegroomThe bible states when we die we are with Jesus. Wedding traditions forbid contact with the groom until the wedding its self. It should be noted every wedding story was not identical though the main tradition were normal -- 1 year gap, groom getting bride at her house taking her to his house, and the ceremony. Even in this there were differences.
so now some will say that revelation in not in chronological, but when John writes and then this happened and then this happened these events are in chronological order, so here are the scriptures that you seek,How many times does the sun go black, the moon turn to red, and the stars fall from the sky?
the Bride/the Church is there in Heaven :Rev 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
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Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
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And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
then we have the First resurrection and please take note here who are raised the tribulation saints, who have refused the mark of the beast and been beheaded, so John says the wedding Is come( is here ) and then the tribulations saints are raised: this has to be even before the last day resurrection: Clearly. from scriptures :
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
side note here some preach, that the church comes back with Jesus but have you ever heard of a king taking His bride to the battlefield, it is His tribulation saints He brings back with Him. now we have gotten to your resurrection where you believe 1 Thes . 4 takes place , but again please note that all the dead( the dead) are raised not just those that are asleep in Christ as those in 1 Thes. 4
Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I am not amuzed at you not be able to see two separate events, brother, but rather praying for you. and would ask your prayer for me as welll.
In Revelation things are announced before the actual event, even seen in chapter 18 and many many more. The bride of Christ is all Christians and so being, by excluding the tribulation saints it would seem they are made second class. Two resurrections. Blessed are those of us who take part in the first. I will not teary on with further explanation on this thread but feel free to start up another. I would love talking more about it. My prayers are with you too. We only have to see Jesus as King to be brothers my friend. These other differences are miner and obsolete when we see Jesus.
I will respond to the rest shortly
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The 4 beasts are angels and they cannot sit on the thrones. They are always around the Father's throne.
The additional 12 (other than the disciples) may come out of the gentile people and that is why they are not identified.
Thank you for that. However, again, questions such as above, it does not explain, like, if the beast are angels and the elders are perhaps the church, why are the angels and church both singing the song of redemption, if in fact, that is the correct translation of text, which is one key idea used that the 24 represent the church. It also lacks answer as to why the elders and saints are often mentioned separately in the same passages. It also makes one ask the question, if chapter 4 is the saints, who is in chapter 20 on the thrones. Who related the message to John? The angel as he states in chapter 1 or an elder meaning one of the saints, which to me seems awkward. Anyhow, for me, this assumption leaves more questions than it leaves answers, more so with nothing more to really assume this except for chapter 5 when the KJV puts the beast (angels) and elders all singing the song of redemption together. I do however, appreciate your input.
Leonard, thank you for your comments. I certainly do agree the the book of Revelation can be and should be used for teaching for this present day as well. Perhaps sometimes when we put to much focus on the future of revelation we forsake what we can learn from it for today.
At least one half of the equation.
What part do you agree with and what part do you differ with and why is that my brother? Thanks
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They are the 12 patriot's of Israel and 12 disciples of the Lord Jesus, 12+12=24.
You'll probably will be wanting scripture,huh, oh boy.
I could be wrong but it does seem that these thrones are given just as Jesus states, at the renewal of all things. We seem to get a clear picture of this well after Revelation chapter 4.
King James Version
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Than, if such is true, the twenty four thrones of chapter cannot be of the ones mentioned Matthew. Matthew 25:31 also implies this.
This has lead me through the Spirit to one more time take a real close look at Revelation.
This next verse is usually used as proof of the elders representing the saints of old and new.
Revelation 5
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(1) If this is correct, would not the four beast also be the saints, as they sing the same song?
(2) Why did the KJV use the word "us", when it is not found that way in the original nor do most translations translate it that way?
http://interlinearbible.org/revelation/5-9.htm It seems, as most translations put it, it should read more like this:
New International Version (©1984)
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
thus removing the implication that the elders or beast were referring to themselves when singing this song.
(3) It seems that instead of the assumption the church is represented as the elders, that the church, the part that have been slain or are now gone from earth, are under the alter of God:
Revelation 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(4) It seems to me the elders and the saints are always listed in contrast to each other rather than the same or together in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(5) Last but not least for now, it seems the bible makes clear when it is the saints who are singing the songs.
Revelation 15
2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
I saw many other passages supporting the above statements in Revelation but will use if requested. Also interesting to note, other than Jesus, John only speaks at the beginning of Revelation as an angel relaying the messages to him. In Revelation, we find both an elder and an angel relating things to him. Are they the same? If not, are they both angels?
These are just questions as most certainly I have not concluded an answer. I just like to take away some possible answers to help come up with a good possibility.
God bless you all and thank you for reading and your responses.
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Thank you for that passage. After looking up the word throne, there is no reference to that word apart from, or assuming because of it's wording, the saints who will reign with Christ for the thousand years. Good point made. thanks
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Thank you Joe for your time in looking the topic up. I kind of find it amusing how many that believe in a pre-trib rapture use questionable photo types as proof yet deny or try explaining away clear scripture. Anyhow, I guess that is for another thread. LOL I truly do appreciate your time. Perhaps the reason I am quite often unsatisfied with answers as I, like Thomas, always want clear and visible proof.
God certainly has gave me more than enough to believe and to put my trust in Him over the years. -
In Revelation 4:4 it talks about 24 elders sitting on the 24 thrones. Other passages as 4:10-11 and 11:16-18 mention also these elders, but is there any certainty on who these elders may be? Some say they represent the church. If so or even so, is there an actual 24 elder scene on the thrones? In other words, there are many photo types but always using a real person or group in both the photo type and the fulfillment. Thus would indicate there really was/is/ or will be 24 actual elders on the thrones unless I am seeing things a little off which has been known to happen from time to time. LOL
There seems to be hints in regards to white robes and crowns but nothing that seems concrete to me as even in chapter 11 their prayer may or may not include themselves as the saints. All in all, just a bit baffled. If anyone could show clear indication or direct cross references as why one believes as they do that would be great.
Maybe there is no concrete way of knowing on this side of heaven, but God does desire us to learn as much is we can. Thank you in advance for your helpful responses as this site is often more than full of very knowledgeable brothers and sisters.. God bless
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Everything that Jesus did and had is now availible to us. It is possible for a Christian to live a perfect life but because of the desires of the flesh it is highly unlikely.
So far only Jesus has been able to do that.
Can you show one verse that shows this outside of the wrongly perceived idea of perfection? It seems Paul was more humble about his own sin the closer his earthly life drew to an end more so than any other time. Thanks Mass
OneLight, on 20 January 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:When God looks upon us, ask yourself if He is seeing us or is He seeing Christ in us? Christ is the only perfection we will even have in our lives. We, as human, will never be perfect. Only He in us is perfect.
Can you provide scripture that shows that when God looks at us that he sees Christ even if we are being disobedient to Christ? I would like to understand this doctrine better. I only see the scripture saying that God sees me as me. That if I put on Christ and walk in him then God sees me as Christ, the cleft of the rock that I have hidden myself in as I am conformed to his death by picking up my cross, denying myself and walking in him. If I come out of the rock and walk in disobedience, it appears that scripture says that the wrath of God abides upon me being a child of disobedience. How is it you say he sees me as Christ still when I am not truly walking in Him? Where is my scriptural reference that guides me to understand this to be true?
My dearest brother Gary, it is not that God sees Christ when He looks at us but rather the blood of Christ. In other words of course, Jesus is God, thus He cannot look upon Himself when looking on us, however, He looks on what the blood has done for us. Before He died, as you know, we could not stand before God. Our sin or disobedience separates us from God. In Hebrews it is clear that turning back to the world after we are giving the Holy Spirit can be a fatal thing to do as Christ blood cannot be shed twice. Hebrew states that if God did not put up with the sins of people of the past that had not the blood and Holy Spirit, how much less will He put up with those that disobey on continual bases after the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Point being. We are called to obedience, and in this obedience we are made perfect or better put mature. God looks at the blood, and Christ looks and judges us based on what we did with His blood that made us Holy. God cannot look at us without condemning us without looking through His Son's blood.
Have a blessed day my family
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I have decided to comment at least one more time as I was thinking about the belief of being able to live a perfect life, when the word perfect is implied to mean never falling short of the glory of God, or never having a thought or action that is not all it can be toward Jesus, that is, never having any unrighteous found, or any imperfections found, in a Christians life and walk with Christ.
Many who believe we can reach this state in our walk with God, believe without this way of thinking we at the get go lose all hope, lose all ambition, and lose all motivation to be like Christ Jesus as in this way of thinking we can never achieve such a feat. Also it is believed that this way of thinking allows Christians to walk any way they will and not worrying about the commands of God because we will never obey them all in perfection any way.
Is this view true? Perhaps, for those who are looking for an excuse to not obey Jesus or to remain in His love it could be.
I got to thinking though. A boxer. Does he train to be a better boxer in the hopes of being at a state where he can never be defeated or never misses a punch or the opportunity to do so? Does his hope rely on a perfected state of boxing in regards to winning every fight and and never messing up? How about a skilled worker, like a nurse or construction worker? Do they get better at what they do because they have the hopes of being perfect in their job and the belief they will never mess up? If not, do they really have a reason to try to be better?
My nephew loves video games. Most kids do. Sometimes it takes him a while to become good at one he is playing. In what seems to be no time though, he is whipping my butt in almost every game we play. You see, he loves video games. His aim as to be as good at that video game as he can possibly be. Even though their are certain games where he is very good, he knows he will always make mistakes and will never play a "perfect" game.
When we become Christians, we fall more and more in love with Jesus Christ. Not because of our doings, but His love He has toward and for us. Our aim is to become more like Jesus Christ everyday we live. We want to do this. Why? Because we have been born again and have been given a new heart. A heart that has an interest, a heart that has a love, a heart that wants to serve our Lord Jesus Christ better and better everyday and to become like Him more and more as we grow, just as a child wants to be just like his father (in good households) though knowing he will never be exactly like his father. The principle as he wants to follow after his fathers foot prints and wants to live his life as his father did.
The word perfect as we understand it here now is not the way in which it was meant to be or how it was understood in the bible times. Mature, or holy, or walking with God with a clear conscious and a clear heart as a follower who no longer looks to the world for joy and no longer is swayed by the wind to forsake Jesus, this is the way the word perfect was understood. This can be seen when reading everywhere the word is used.
We are to strive for perfection, and strive to when the prize, but let us not misunderstand the word perfection and in the way it was used in the bible. If we can not understand the word properly, we set ourselves up for a life of disappointment. We will never achieve perfection as we see it in our own eyes. How does Jesus view perfection? Those who come to Jesus are made perfected and are able to stand before God the Father. If when living our Christian life, we rebel against the Holy Spirit, and continue a life of such, we are certainly no longer considered perfect before the Father. Could anyone here live such a life where without Jesus Christ we could stand in front of the Father and say, "Here I am Lord, standing perfectly before you"? Job didn't. No one ever recorded in the bible has except through Christ Jesus.
So are we hopeless for not believing we can grow to live a life of never making a mistake again?
Not at all. We serve because we want to. We strive because it is now in our hearts. We thrive because Jesus takes us there. Our perfection rest in the Lord and the blood that He shed for us. Our maturity relies on obedience on what the Lord shows us and tells us. I never would want to think I was better than another Christian as I am saved by the same way, the same blood.
It is a relieve knowing we can have victory over our sins on this earth. It is a blessing to know we will be made perfect at the resurrection. It is perhaps, the grandest however, to know what the Father deems as perfect, as obedience, not perfection as some understand it. Who can stand perfected apart from the blood or by our own works. Our perfection is in His blood. Our perfection is in our growth. Our perfection is in our obedience. Our perfection is in standing before the Holy Lord with a clear and clean heart.
That, to me, is a God worth living (and dying) for my friends and family. Perhaps Paul would have been afraid to write Romans chapter seven if he believed any other way.
God bless you all
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Part of the Obama health care allows a future (detailed directly) where all persons have one card, as this would cover their criminal record, license information, bank and credit cards, and social security cards as well. In fact, you would have no other cards or numbers, not even library cards most likely. If and when this will happen is in question, but it has already been approved as it is part of the new health care system. (PS. Also allows the GOV to withdraw from your bank account whenever for any reason)
I am not so sure even this would be the mark of the beast, but certainly can see, with the rising of one world Gov. that inserting chips inside the body could certainly be a forced stance not too long after. These are just the signs, my family. As a good song sings, "People get ready".
God bless
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Well it seems that everyone here is following the same pattern of thought.
How would you explain what these verses say about baptism?
1 Peter 3:18-21
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
It says that just as Noah's family (eight souls) was saved by water, that baptism also saves us.
I am hoping brother, that the many responses here clearly answer your question. If you have more, please share. I was saved for ten years before I was baptized. This is not something I am bragging about by any means, but I certainly do know I would of been with Jesus if I would of died before that time. This hope was given to me when I first accepted Jesus. ANY WORKS BEYOND SALVATION is adding to the gift of Jesus Christ. However, we will know those who belong because with a truly changed heart we will want to follow Jesus and His commandments. Jesus judges on our heart and the knowledge in which He has given us and our response according to such. Not one person alive was ever able to keep all the commandments and none ever will, but we are made holy through the blood of Jesus Christ.
This does not mean we live in a depressed state thinking we can never become perfect, as living perfect is being holy before God without having a heart that condemns us, but means instead of focusing on ourselves, as in we could ever do something to repay our dept to Christ, to always focus on Jesus and His love for all man kind. As we grow in Christ and His love we will share more and more of His love and always want to do as He commands or wants us to do. Once we know what Jesus wants is what is always best for our eternity, it is then we can truly hold on His love and share it around the world.
God laid baptism on my heart, and in time, I obeyed. All should be baptized. Sooner the better. However, not at all how we get to heaven. However, grieving the Holy Spirit can lead to separation. I guess that, however, is a different topic.
God bless
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Examples of -- perfection?
not in order -- my imperfection. LOL
1 Kings 14:8 New International Version (©1984)
I tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you, but you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commands and followed me with all his heart, doing only what was right in my eyes.
2 Samuel 12:13 New International Version (©1984)
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.
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2 Kings 18:6 New International Version (©1984)
He held fast to the LORD and did not cease to follow him; he kept the commands the LORD had given Moses.
2 Chronicles 32:36 New International Version (©1984)
Then Hezekiah repented of the pride of his heart, as did the people of Jerusalem; therefore the LORD's wrath did not come upon them during the days of Hezekiah.
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2 Chronicles 17:4 New International Version (©1984)
but sought the God of his father and followed his commands rather than the practices of Israel.
New International Version 1984
2Jehu the seer, the son of Hanani, went out to meet him and said to the king, “Should you help the wicked and lovea those who hate the Lord? Because of this, the wrath of the Lord is upon you. 3There is, however, some good in you, for you have rid the land of the Asherah poles and have set your heart on seeking God.”
2 Chronicles 20:37 New International Version (©1984)
Eliezer son of Dodavahu of Mareshah prophesied against Jehoshaphat, saying, "Because you have made an alliance with Ahaziah, the LORD will destroy what you have made." The ships were wrecked and were not able to set sail to trade.
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Psalms 119:176 New International Version (©1984)
I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands.
Isa. 53:6 New International Version (©1984)
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
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New International Version 1984
The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold
5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.
18Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.”
19The angel answered, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time.”
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Genesis 6:9 New International Version (©1984)
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
Genesis 9:21 New International Version (©1984)
When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.
Hebrews 11:40 New International Version (©1984)
God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
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1 Kings 15:14 New International Version (©1984)
Although he did not remove the high places, Asa's heart was fully committed to the LORD all his life.
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Job 1:8 New International Version (©1984)
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
Job 9:20 New International Version (©1984)
Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
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Mark 6:20 New International Version (©1984)
because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled; yet he liked to listen to him.
2When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, “Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?”
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My intent is hardly to pick on the likes of John the Baptist and Noah which I am not worthy to compare, but I feel this needed to be done to show the proper usage of words such as perfect and righteous, blameless and holy, and obeying the commandments of our God. We all fall short of the glory of God.
I want to end with a passage from perhaps the most beloved Christian of the new Testament.
New International Version 1984
An Illustration From Marriage
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Struggling With Sin
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”b 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Paul makes clear here he continually had a struggle with sin and in regards to our sinful nature, a slave to the law of sin.
New International Version 1984
37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
I am not sure about all of you, but these two commandments by themselves seem to, without the very blood of Christ, keep me far from perfection. I wish I could say every thought of my mind was about doing His will, or my heart never craved anything other than Christ Jesus, or my inner most soul sometimes did not have side ventures it wanted to go on.
When ever I become prideful, the Lord humbles me. Whenever I believe I am above another, the Lord shows me I am not. Are we doing our best to obey, follow, and learning to lean on the Holy Spirit to forever more become more like Him, Jesus Christ?
There is only One who I will compare myself to. Jesus Christ our Lord. Let us lean on Him, keeping pure hearts which do not condemn us. Let us always be in prayer and in the word, for God often uses the words in our heart to defeat the devil when temptations arise.
In the end, every one is entitled to believe as they will. My only hope is, we all always stay humble and right before our God Almighty, and always strive to be like Him, perfect in every way.
God bless
I would love to hear what any one might have to add, be it different or not.
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Thank you Gary for your post. There is certainly often more than one way to see scripture.
Here, I want to present, perhaps, a slightly variant view.
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New International Version 1984
18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
So what does this mean? He states we know Jesus lives in us because the Holy Spirit that Jesus gave us reveals this to us. He states that if our heart does not condemn us we have confidence before God. In stating this, he says we can ask what we will and receive because we are obeying Gods commandments. Those who obey His commandments live in Him, and He in them.
Let me rephrase. John writes if our hearts do not condemn us when we have the Holy Spirit guiding our lives we are obeying His commandments! Now this does not take away bible reading and such, and does not take away our learning from His word, but being that the Holy Spirit guides us through the word and speaks to us through it, and many other things, is not obeying Gods commandments obeying the very Holy Spirit that lives inside of us? Living a life with a heart toward God and in a way as so our heart, guided by the Holy Spirit, does not condemn us?
That would seem to fit Revelation 12:17
New International Version (©1984)
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus
Another verse that sticks out to me, or calls me, is
New International Version 1984
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5hec predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
We know He foreknew those that would chose to love Him. We also know He knows and knew in advance all who would be holy and blameless in His sight. That is, He knew of those that would believe in His name and follow after Him and His ways.
As Christians, we are always being conformed more and more, closer and closer, to the image of Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:18 New International Version (©1984)
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Romans 8:29 New International Version (©1984)
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
1 John 2:29 New International Version (©1984)
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. (or practices, lives out what is right)
In these passages, it never seems to state we will stop growing, or stop learning, at some point while in this body. I also have not known anyone that truly could claim this.
Thirdly, we know, from what the bible tells us, all have sin, or, sin nature.
Job 15:14 New International Version (©1984)
"What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?
New International Version 1984
4How then can a man be righteous before God?
How can one born of woman be pure?
5If even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not pure in his eyes,
6how much less man, who is but a maggot—
a son of man, who is only a worm!”
ECC. 7:20 New International Version (©1984)
There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins
Hebrews 7:25 New International Version (©1984)
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
( this seems to indicate He lives, forever, to forgive us of our sins and to make us Holy before the Father consistently. Not that we live sinful lives, per say, but still have our sinful nature that cannot be accepted by the Father apart from His Son )
James 3:2 New International Version (©1984)
We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
Proverbs 20:9 New International Version (©1984)
Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?
Though this last one can be debated as to who it was directed, I am still including it.
1 John 1:8 New International Version (©1984)
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Kings 8:46 "When they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to his own land, far away or near;
Here it does seem our sin nature does stay with us, though granted, we, through the Holy Spirit, must learn to gain control over this nature, through miracles of Jesus Christ. None the less, a sinless being? A human that has no sin? How can this be? Yes, indeed, our sins are washed away. Yes, indeed, we live live pure before the Lord. But does this mean we have no more imperfections? Does it mean we no longer fight on occasion to read the bible, or obey the Holy Spirit?
In my next post, which I will have out, hopefully shortly, I want to go through some people in the bible that were called perfect or said to have obeyed Gods commands, and show that the word perfect, or obeying Gods commands, most certainly did not mean perfect. My intent, even as I continue to learn, as to show it is a matter of our heart toward Christ Jesus and of His Holy Spirit as to us being called obedient or perfect, versing rebellious.
I will have more shortly and will finish my thoughts in the next post.
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Be perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect.
for the perfecting of the saints.
Why the poll?
Jesus Is Lord.
I never thought there to be any disagreement of much of this kind before but in my studies I have found there are many, many believers who think we can be at a point of perfection, and, or, should be there at the beginning of our walk with Christ. Most are quite sincere in this to say the very least. Because of the sheer numbers of sites out there with the perfection stance, I thought it might be interesting to see how many of this family also believed in that way regarding perfection and the living of.
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Blessed by the best, I think you just may be.
I have never heard an answer expressed in that way before, and I have did much research. I'll have to take some time and study that prospective out. Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. Truly a interesting topic to research deeper into. Analogies are found through the entire bible, so just maybe you got something real. I will let you know if I have further questions in relation to this aspect when, if they come up. -
I won't answer the poll for a few reasons, but that really does not matter. Scripture tells us that we can overcome the world if we have enough faith in Him. Yet, it also tells us that we are in constant battle with our flesh. WE also know that we are all different, even from one minute to the next. We also have to take into consideration how much sin is before our eyes every day, and through our ears also, compared to the times scripture was penned.
Do I think it is possible, perhaps it is if one could meditate completely on Jesus 24/7.
Personally, I see this as a never ending debate.
A couple good points you brought up. One -- we are all different. Could it not be, due to being different with different interest, and this is not even to get into different levels of growth but just every one being made different, that if there were to people that considered themselves perfect, they would never consider the other perfect?
Concerning the times, however, Lot, Noah, Paul and many many more knew what living holy in the midst of sin was all about so I guess in my own prospective I could not use that as a reason for sin.
You are most likely right in regards to this topic, like many others, could go on forever, but hopefully, for those with listening ears and an open heart, some conclusions can be made. I feel it is important to try to fully understand as much as possible as so we can answer when needed and be a help to our brethren and sisters when needed.
I wouldn't have voted if I'd known I would be the first one.I voted it depends because in the verse, the word that's translated "perfect" in some translations, is translated "holy" in other translations. While I don't believe we can ever be perfect if the definition is completely without sin from now till death, I do believe we can live holy lives, if the definition is sincerely desiring to please God, even if we fail at times.Yes, there seems to be many translations and we find that with every Hebrew and Greek word in translation. One thing God seemed to lay on my heart last night, and I will use scripture later on, as the focus of the heart. Davis was said to obey all of Gods commandments, yet he was a murderer, a cheater, and a liar, at least om one or two occasions, but interesting enough, when he lied to the priest to get food for his men it was never counted against him, though the priest entire family was put to death. Also interesting he is still said to have obeyed all of Gods commands. The thing that struck me was this.
It is said that David had a heart for God. How wonderful! Is this where the truth lays? The heart? Many others were called perfect, righteous or holy though they had committed sin clearly stated in the bible. Even Peter. Even Paul writes his struggles in Romans 7. But all of these men (and woman) had one thing in common. Their heart, and their desire to worship and to please God Almighty.
Point being, perhaps you nailed the answer pretty good.
Another option I would have included is, 'It depends on how the word 'perfect' is used.and what is the definition.
Merriam-Webster
a : being entirely without fault or defect
It's too late in the night to run references, so I won't. Nevertheless, I believe the word could have the meaning of being mature, or complete, lacking nothing, I am persuaded that Jesus is the only perfect man. Our bodies are not redeemed now, we try to keep our bodies under us and we override the body with our spirit, but at the end of the day it is still corrupt.
Positionally, we are perfect, complete in him.
Colossians 2:9-10a
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him
Some good words there. Mature in Christ. Realizing our sinful nature, thus sin, is not completely done away with. We stand holy before God because of the blood of Jesus but understanding we are yet to be made perfect, when this body is gone. Perhaps a difference would be, justified versing made to perfection, though hopefully all Christians grow into a mature walk with Christ.
New International Version (©1984)
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Me and a good brother was talking about the topic of being able to live a perfect Christian life. This has brought me to my knees in prayer, and beyond that, an understanding that I am never as good as I might start to think I am. Thank you Jesus for Your mercy.
Amen And Amen~!
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No No No
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10
Never In My Righteousness
Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers: Job 8:20
Will I Make Myself Perfect In The Eyes Of The LORD
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 1 Peter 3:12
But
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:21-28
Jesus~!
Thank you for the scripture. Your answering with the word of God is always inspiring, thoughtful, and often right on.
Yes, with an emphasis on it being by faith in the righteousness of Christ on which I stand. I do not believe in the sinless walk by the actions of a believer. The believer is perfect in Christ. 2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. So in our position and trust in Christ, we are perfect, but in our walk it is a growing process. Maturity comes into focus as we put off the deeds of the flesh by following the Holy Spirit's leading as Paul says in this Phil 3 passage; Phil 3:12-16 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. John puts it this way in 1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. And as I stated, faith plays an important part always in the life of a believer, those that fear dropping away or losing their salvation have a fear that is not necessary for the saint. 1 John 4!7-19 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us. The more our faith in Christ becomes a reality, fear vanishes. This perfect here I believe is more complete in love, we are already perfect in every way in Christ and that is why we must please toward the mark of being holy in our walk and that will be accomplished in glory.
Nothing more that I can add to that right now. A growth, a race, a heart ever reaching out for God, a desire to become more and more like Christ. Perfect through Jesus alone, mature through His Spirit.
Thank you all for your responses and wisdom.
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New International Version (©1984)
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Me and a good brother was talking about the topic of being able to live a perfect Christian life. This has brought me to my knees in prayer, and beyond that, an understanding that I am never as good as I might start to think I am. Thank you Jesus for Your mercy.
I am doing much study as we speak and further input would be awesome. I know we are called to live as Christ, and to be perfect, just as He is perfect. However, we also know our sinful nature never leaves, though with the Spirit we can over come. Does this however mean we can get to a state in our Christian walk where we walk perfectly and have not one sin to confess, or perhaps better put, unknown sins, even if this is concluded in the definition of sin, where all unrighteousness is sin? Who here can say they always have 100% of their heart and mind pointing directly toward God?
Sometimes, it is not until I look in the God mirror where I realize I am not free from all sin and rebellion, though I have no sin that I know of right now that is an ongoing sin in which I am being convicted of. What does the word perfect mean being that scripture is clear that we all are conforming and growing to be more like Christ, or Christ like everyday of our lives and that the blood of Christ was shed not just for our past sins, but present and future sins too.
This topic is kinda laying heavy on my heart to get to a true understanding of it all so any input would be of great help.
I would like to share what I have discovered with the help of the Holy Spirit and through all of you after I am done with all research in relation to this.
I was going to just respond on another thread but could find no others that dealt with the teaching of perfect living.
Forgive me for my long start post. LOL Just so many questions.
God bless
I felt compelled to seek more answers before trying to conclude without full knowledge. Thank you for your help.
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I really enjoyed this teaching. I believe it teaches in the truth. You, of course, can comment regardless if or if not you watch this video, but I would strongly encourage you to take a little while to listen.
I rarely start topics but felt compelled to share this video. If any one has differences of opinion in this area, it would be fun to discuss.
God bless
(ps I think the best part is the last third)
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Sometimes it is easy to get caught up in minor doctrines. It is refreshing to see the basics of salvation established once again. Grace given to the father. What love. Great watch.
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I only take pictures with a cell phone with no zoom,(
) but I sure am enjoying looking at the ones on this posting. Breathtaking how beautiful Gods creation is. Thanks guys for sharing. -
Yes indeed. beautiful. So was the church they sang in.
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It is touching to read stories such as this. I wish these stories would make the news more often. Thanks for sharing.
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What a spirit you have for God. I often find that God was there working miracles the whole time but I could not see them until the time was right. God is good, despite our lack of understanding, and always, He is right there by our side. Keep the faith. Keep the praise. You will be rewarded. Praise God only through His power can I do this. He is soo good yet sometimes I praise Him soo little.
God certainly has gave me more than enough to believe and to put my trust in Him over the years.
WHO ARE THE TWENTY FOUR ELDERS
in Theology
Posted
Thank you Joi. because this point has already been questioned (I understand, I rarely read an entire thread myself before responding), I am just going to post my earlier questions:
I could be wrong but it does seem that these thrones are given just as Jesus states, at the renewal of all things. We seem to get a clear picture of this well after Revelation chapter 4.
<< Revelation 20 >>
King James Version
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Than, if such is true, the twenty four thrones of chapter cannot be of the ones mentioned Matthew. Matthew 25:31 also implies this.
This has lead me through the Spirit to one more time take a real close look at Revelation.
This next verse is usually used as proof of the elders representing the saints of old and new.
Revelation 5
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(1) If this is correct, would not the four beast also be the saints, as they sing the same song?
(2) Why did the KJV use the word "us", when it is not found that way in the original nor do most translations translate it that way?
http://interlinearbible.org/revelation/5-9.htm It seems, as most translations put it, it should read more like this:
New International Version (©1984)
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
thus removing the implication that the elders or beast were referring to themselves when singing this song.
(3) It seems that instead of the assumption the church is represented as the elders, that the church, the part that have been slain or are now gone from earth, are under the alter of God:
Revelation 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(4) It seems to me the elders and the saints are always listed in contrast to each other rather than the same or together in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(5) Last but not least for now, it seems the bible makes clear when it is the saints who are singing the songs.
Revelation 15
2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
I saw many other passages supporting the above statements in Revelation but will use if requested. Also interesting to note, other than Jesus, John only speaks at the beginning of Revelation as an angel relaying the messages to him. In Revelation, we find both an elder and an angel relating things to him. Are they the same? If not, are they both angels?
These are just questions as most certainly I have not concluded an answer. I just like to take away some possible answers to help come up with a good possibility.
thank you for replying. God bless Joi