franciskelsey

Interesting to note, one book at my house places I believe 19 quotes in the NT from 1 Enoch. I must say however, a known book does not make it inspired. Very interesting points you have brought up. In the sections I have read of 1 Enoch, and other such books, there does seem to be a bit of truth for sure. Adam and Even brought up the "fact" before the fall animals could talk to and like humans, thus implying how Satan was able to subdue Eve in the garden, however, in this story and in many like it, it often caters to self, Greek mythology, or almost seems to take a view point of Satan in that it expresses that side or take on some of the stories. In saying that, I have so much more to learn yet. Funny thing about me, I do not like to conclude anything is fact until I can know for certain, and can prove, at least to myself, that such and such is true. Concerning the Genesis account, I have yet to come to that point there fore at this time I am still learning much and am all ears. Concerning stories shared in many other cultures, we find this to be true of other things from Gen. as well, like the flood, the human race starting from one man and one woman, the garden of Eden, and more for sure. All of these stories, if one considers the bible historic fact, (as I do) would of had to come from Noah after the flood (and his family). It is hard to say how many years there was between the separation of the human race and the writing of Genesis, though there have been some educated guesses. That being said, is it really possible that all stories around the world came from the Jewish understanding of Genesis? Being that the believes are often much different this is almost impossible to be the case, thus it is a very convincing view concerning the fallen angels in relation to the world wide stories. I do sometimes wonder if I will come to a defining certain answer answer, even for myself, but I sure am working on it. I really do appreciate all of the thoughts that have been displayed. In knowing all the truth in Gods word we do must try to consider everything that there is believed to be some truth to it, though absolute can only be found in one source, of course. Thanks for the patience shown in regards to my timing. God bless ya all. PS Diatheosis, thank you for your story. I must say I cannot relate too much for sure. I am glad you found the true Jesus. I do believe every Christian struggles with learning to discern the spirits (the Holy Spirit versing the spirit of the fallen ones) a good share of their Christian life and walk. May Jesus always be with and guard us all from the deceptions of Satan and his lies and lead us to the one and only truth that can be found in Jesus of Nazareth alone. Praise the Lord our Father. He will prevail and we will prevail with Him, through His power alone. Amen.

Interesting point concerning the sons of God. The verse beginning with the mention of them ends with Gen 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." Were Seth's lineage some how different genetically for this conclusion? And why to separate folks into two groups since all originate from Adam and Eve? Implying the word son בֵּן (bēn) refers to a different status which it according to Strong can do, that also expands the possibilities to include other entities. I did not expect to reply yet thus I left all my study papers at home and for that matter I still have not have completely made up my mind. In Exodus we find God calling Israel His son and in Psalm we I believe 83 we find the term for what appears to be the sons of God as all who worship God. Some believe in a separation only being of those who obey God and those who did not, however there is hints of following God on the Seth side with no hints and in fact, perhaps the opposite on the other branch. All in all I see no clear passage in separating the two lines though the possibility exist. This would almost imply an attitude or way of living based on the above fact than a race of people. Knowing the term means "fallen ones" it is not certain as to what to make of it but a way of living is possible. The bible states these neps were there at (or before) the time of the debated scripture occurrence and after, there fore only the men of old and renown (men of great statue of placement) were the offspring of such and not the "giants". It is true that in the "lost books" of 1 Enoch and Adam and Eve as well is Josephus had writings or believed such as the demon (fallen angel account) and it was even Jewish historic thought from what I read. The question is what do we believe? The early church has always been against this idea and the "lost books" were never thought of is inspired and in fact, they hated these writings and called them out against God. Josephus just wrote what was Jewish tradition. If one believes in the "lost books" accounts one must also believe in all the other crazy stuff found in these writings including the 2,3, and 4th Enoch. Do we believe the word of God or Greek mythological writings? As we know, Jewish tradition has not always had things right either. To further the problem, we have to go against what Jesus states about angels and the fact they CANNOT marry, and that is what these Sons of God did, they married. Not just had sex. No where else in scripture can we find such writings. Concerning the rest of your post, praise the Lord. You have certainly have had more experiences with this sort of thing than me. On a finale note for now, I have been looking into the possibility of sons of God being leaders or judges. Look up the word for God used there you will see it was used for judges 5 times I believe and in Psalms the leaders are called Gods. Jesus quotes this in John. In Psalms you can even see the written difference of them and "men". I still have some research to do. I wish I had all of my study scripture here with me. It is an interesting topic. I also have trouble when realizing the only ones God seemed angry at was men and not the angels. The usual cross scripture used for the belief in angels just does not hold up at all. Anyhow, thanks again for bringing my interest up here. I should have a conclusion for sure by next week. I will post my concluding thoughts than with scripture. God bless,

Interesting point concerning the sons of God. The verse beginning with the mention of them ends with Gen 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." Were Seth's lineage some how different genetically for this conclusion? And why to separate folks into two groups since all originate from Adam and Eve? Implying the word son בֵּן (bēn) refers to a different status which it according to Strong can do, that also expands the possibilities to include other entities. What would make of the word nephilim on an other account later on? Although not scriptural, most of the civilized cultures (meaning they could record their past in one way or another) speak of beings coming down from above who began to interact with the humanity. This is not only written of but depicted on many occasion. Did all of them simply made this stuff up? Especially in Sumer their tablets speak of quite amazing things. Sure, sometimes interpreting the Word is not made easy, and the Holy Spirit even may struggle make us understand as we often are quite slow to understand things which do not fit our world view. I agree with what the other one said: the Bible is not a record of dark arts etc. It speaks of many a thing but does not go into too much detail. The point probably being, neither should we put all our time and energy on the dark side, but it sure is important to know the enemy and his ways. As for the end time perspective, I don't know the hour, but I see lots of activity gaining momentum in this world. Many await aliens to rescue us, and I even used to co-operate with some beings years ago while I doing my astral travel and other stuff. So knowing of the deception can be of importance in this sense. Hence knowing of the subject and especially how to proceed with these things may in some occasion actually make your day. It sure is not to wave the flag and show off the power of your faith, but sometimes we might be led by the Lord to put things in order. By then our thoughts should really be aligned with the Lord though. The more and the deeper we work with God, the greater the possibility we will encounter this stuff. It's not maybe everyone's calling but you never know. Come hell or high water, everything is about the name of Jesus no matter what follows. If you are new in faith and feel like it' s some cool stuff be patient in your praying and discerning what God actually wants for you to proceed with. These things may sound like 'cool' (hollywood associations at work then) but the stuff is real and must be dealt properly otherwise you just make yourself a target. Be sure to first follow Jesus in what He actually instructs us (hint: read the Bible and get born again from the spirit, then receive the gifts of the Spirit God will grand you). Although even the spirits may then be subject to you, mind not that but rejoice your name is written in the book of life and praise the Lord. The more you actually work for God will already get Satan worried. And he tries to convince us it's not worth to follow Christ. I've met the former a couple times when he was hoping I would curse God due to certain conditions back then but I find no glory in him, so I will just stick with my Savior and Creator instead. Sometimes I just find the devil so dumb. Actually rise against the Creator of all life and try to replace Him? Go figure, he used to be an angel of light. Pride doth go before the fall. But yeah, Jesus is the answer and the solution. Praise Him. Unfortunately right now I have to venture to the library to use the computer (Hoping that will change again next month) so I cannot comment much, and being there is already many topics on the same. Fact is, you have brought one very interesting thing to me in regards to the stories of many across the world concerning such. I have quite a few books at the house so, to be honest, so far on this topic my research has been on the light side, but I will dig much deeper into this in the next week and if it is all right with you I will just give you a PM of any thing new I have came across. My believe in this way of thinking is not concrete. You have asked a few god questions. Thank you for stirring up my interest in this topic. God bless

I agree with the start post but of course it is hard to back up all things with scripture on a solid level. However, concerning the Gen. account I differ, believing the sons of God were of the Seth line and not fallen angels. I can find no place that the sons of God are ever called fallen angels and I also could not find any valid claims of woman becoming pregnant with such encounters. However, I know that is most likely already on another thread. There is most certainly evil spirits all around us and they can cater to our desires to win us over. I do believe all ghost/aliens on this earth are demonic. However, there is what seems to be a variety of different creatures and/or angels in the presence of God. Are they all angels or are there other creatures up there as well. Time will tell.

Sorry Joe, sometimes I tend to skip over some post sometimes. Fantastic job for the answer. I am glad I looked into it though. Seems some things stick in my head more that way. God bless

I am sure some others can give you much more insight than me but on my findings they are certainly different. The very basics are, from what I read in my two books on the Quakers, they consider themselves a third sect of Christians (friends) meaning not Catholic, not Protestant but Quaker. They put spirituality as #1. The only true "must believes" are no war and a moral busy standard of life. They debate little is little is absolute and most things are left up to you and the "inner light" including the deity of Jesus Christ and the Trinity as well is abortion. They believe in Jesus but leave it up to each person to determine who Jesus is and/or how He relates to their inner light. They believe in spiritual baptism but do not allow water baptism. Any rituals are forbidden and though some sects have changed a bit now it was traditional to meet on Sunday and have no singing or preaching. They let the Spirit move their time together, Their seems to be no true leader and every one as held to equal standards though some have more prominent roles in leadership and decision making. They have no Creeds or real doctrines as every one decides with their own inner light. It should be notes they do consider themselves Christian and they do believe in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, though the trinity and deity is left to each person as to what to believe. The same is true for heaven and hell. There is no right and wrong answer in these regards. It is all about learning and discerning from your inner light, which I am sure is generally considered the Spirit, however, as every thing else, they have no standard on grace nor sin either. It is almost as most things are just up in the air and left up to the persons inner light though they regard the bible extremely high and read it much. They do have different sects with slightly different traditions or beliefs. In general, a sect seems to be what they are in a way. I believe many are Christian but I believe "friendship" and inner light plays a bigger role than any "Christian doctrine" or what the bible states clearly. Good, busy, holy lives are what they are all about but they go about it in a "inner light feel good" sort of way. They seem to substitute "inner light" with biblical doctrine. That being said, I believe I will stay believing what the bible states is true.

I got a book on it. Let me see if I can post their basics after a bit. My laptop is not running good right now. It has been on 2 hours straight. LOL I will post later. I gotta let my laptop take a break

OOOO K then. Other than the thief on the cross, what makes you believe in point #1? Other that OT scripture in which some speak of your body being in the grave what scripture do you use for this? Also, PLEASE address scripture I gave in the last post of the last (1st page) page of this thread. (a click on the back button.) And point #3 -- #4 -- and MOST OF ALL -- #5 Please do not keep us in wondering my friend, but it does appear you are getting some info from WAYYY outside of scripture my friend. God bless

True, and Jesus is life, but I am still not crossing on foot a busy city freeway or trying to fly like a bird when I am not one from a cliff. I think Jesus had something to say to the ole devil relating to this one. Exactly. Like going to the desert with no water or making your home in the ocean with no boat. It's like if your father made you a nice tree house but you wanted to relax in the middle of the pond instead. Truly though, I highly doubt this will ever happen. There is way too much we do not know. We do know one thing for sure. This little planet God gave us, we can live a while here. I think I will keep the gift of God. Does it not say something when every other planet in the system is believed to be uninhabitable?

If they ever truly do launch off, which I doubt, it would be a death sentence.

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION 16Lord, in distress we searched for you. We prayed beneath the burden of your discipline. 17Just as a pregnant woman writhes and cries out in pain as she gives birth, so were we in your presence, Lord. 18We, too, writhe in agony, but nothing comes of our suffering. We have not given salvation to the earth, nor brought life into the world. 19But those who die in the Lord will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy! For your life-giving light will fall like dew on your people in the place of the dead! Restoration for Israel 20Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the Lord’s anger has passed. 21Look! The Lord is coming from heaven to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed. They will be brought out for all to see. I believe a lot can be said about what you do with the connection of verse 19 and 20. If it were to be a pre trib verse why would we lock our doors behind us? To me, this scripture implies that though there is hope and a promise, until that time comes, when Gods wrath unfolds, should go inside, lock our doors until the wrath (or tribulation) is over. It can be seen all over across the oceans now on how many under ground churches that are present. They cannot be seen or known for fear of death. There could be more than one way to look at the scripture but for me, I see it is remaining in our hope and promises of God despite and through all what will come, because at the end, we have the blessed hope of His returning and resurrection. It is hard for me to understand the concept of locking our doors to our mansions in heaven. You know what I'm saying. It is an interesting area of scripture. Thanks for sharing. God bless

Scripture in part 2 Corinthians 5:6 and 8 -- while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. (I would) prefer rather be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Hebrew 12:22-23 -- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God -- to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect. It is important to note, "paradise" is another term for heaven in the NT. via 2 Corinthians 12:2,4 -- caught up to the third heaven -- was caught up into paradise. Now we can move on. (PS this was believed to be Paul when he was stoned and thought to be dead) Luke 23:43 Today you shall be with Me in paradise. (Jesus talking to the other man on the cross) Philippians 1:23 -- (I have) the desire to part and to be with Christ. (I do not believe I have to quote where Jesus presently resides - in heaven at the right side of the Father) 2 Thessalonians 5:10 (Christ died for us) so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. (that is, when we die and are in spirit we will live with Him though He presently does reside in all believers hearts through the Holy Spirit.) There are also passages in Revelation but I will not use those for fear of another rapture debate as those who believe in pre trib believe at the start of chapter 4 the saints are taken to heaven. In typing and looking up these passages it amazes me how much I do not know and how much more I want to know of our great God. The biggest thing I wanted to show and give was certainty of believers going to heaven when we die. Even on the internet these days it seems hard to find truthful sites thus I am glad I still resort to books a lot of times. God bless and take care Gods family.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXAqoZuYvyA

I know when you are going through tough times people quoting scripture does not seem adequate even though we know these are the very words that give us life and truth. I have been tempted much and have not always passed the test despite my efforts. I must say though, God is forgiving and was with me the whole time. He does understand our weaknesses. I have suffered greatly and will suffer much more, though my suffering fails in comparison to many others. Sometimes when we are suffering it seems to feel like when Jesus was dying on the cross and cried out, "Why have You forsaken Me?". Sometimes it is not until after the pain that we can clearly see and know that Jesus was indeed with us. I think it helps sometimes to read the stories in the bible and to try to comprehend what they went through and their accomplishments, failures and suffering. Remember in the midst of suffering Job cried out to God but just could not understand? There is a reason for every suffering and every failure even though we may never know that reasoning here. You may never know how many people may be lead to Christ by your endurance in faith through suffering. God has never told us He will always give us the answers we are looking for but He did say and is always with us even up to the point and through death. Reading the stories of suffering Christians are so inspiring. Reading the results bring tears to the eyes because it is then we know God was and is there continually. Be strong, keep the faith, ask forgiveness when needed, and He will show Himself truthful and faithful in the end. Remember we are called to suffer in this life. Also remember Gods promises even when we can not sense His presence. It is by this faith He rewards us greatly and trains us and gives us the ability and always and forever to live on His promises alone. Please seek help from your local Christ family as sometimes our internet family cannot give us the same personal help and touch in the way that we need. These are why we are called family, to help others in time of need and to help others see the eyes of Jesus Christ during their most painful time of suffering. Also remember time heals many things.

35adjective having foreskin, i.e. uncircumcised; — ׳ע Exodus 12:48 5t.; construct עֶ֫רֶל Ezekiel 44:9 (twice in verse); עֲרַל Exodus 6:12,30; feminine עֲרִלָה Jeremiah 6:10; plural עֲרִלִים Leviticus 19:23 20t.; construct עַרְלֵי Jeremiah 9:25 2t.; — uncircumcised person Exodus 12:48; Joshua 5:7 (P), Philistines Judges 14:3; Judges 15:18; 1 Samuel 14:6; 1 Samuel 17:26,36; 1 Samuel 31:4; 2 Samuel 1:20; 1 Chronicles 10:4; of other nations Isaiah 52:1; Jeremiah 9:25; especially as slain Ezekiel 28:10; Ezekiel 31:18; Ezekiel 32:19 9t. 32; in Ezekiel 32:27 read מֵעוֺלָם so Hi and most (see on meaning Toy31, 18); עָרֵל זָכָר uncircumcised male Genesis 17:14 (P); בָּשָׂר ׳ע Ezekiel 44:7,9 uncircumcised of flesh; figurative of fruit trees Leviticus 19:23 (compare [עָרַל] above); שְׂפָתַיִם ׳ע figurative of incapacity to speak Exodus 6:12,30; of character, לב ׳ע Jeremiah 9:25; Ezekiel 44:7,9, compare לֵבָבָם הֶעָרֵל Leviticus 26:41 (P), עֲרֵלָה אָזְנָם Jeremiah 6:10 their ear is uncircumcised (unreceptive). http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/6189.htm The word uncircumcised is used more than just a word for the physical nature but of figurative speaking of things as well and as already pointed out, concerning Moses it was his speech, perhaps Hebrew, in which was felt not up to par with what was thought to be the standard.

True evidence can only really be found in the many testimonies of the many saints throughout the world and almost all of our own experiences right here on this site. Like everything else in life, it is what we choose to believe.

WOW!! How can I possibly top that last post?? As pointed out earlier, however, God is without time, thus time means nothing. So, if a theory to disproof something includes time in trying to disproof something that has no time there is no reason nor common ground for the testing or conclusion. Secondly, by your theory, it is based on knowledge, again, as pointed out, that we came up with, or created. If God created the sun, moon, and stars in six days, how many more years do you think it will take for humans to do the same? Can't say? Of course not. It is kinda like having a pet dog. If you throw a stick it might go chase it, and with food you can entice it to learn many tricks. It acts on instinct as well is learning. In time you can get a dog with the proper training to do a lot of things (though my dog never would LOL) because it has instinct to always crave better things. What the dog will never understand is why humans go to work, or how (Like they care how) we drive a car? They just want to be in the car while you are driving to work. How does all of this relate to a thing? If God created us (in which He did) and also knew all knowledge that we would bestow (in which all knowledge comes from Him and without Him there could literally not even be life in existence) how then can we measure knowledge to the same degree? How can a dog understand a human? How can a created human ever understand the love of God? As pointed out in the last post, some things are far beyond a mathematical figure. We can calculate wind but can never truly understand it. We can predict the weather and feel the rain but never get a 24 hour forecast correct. We can fall in love and experience love but truly never be able to explain it. Thus is the way with the Holy Spirit. How can the thing created say to the One that created, you cannot exist? You are a mathematical type of guy. Have you ever calculated the chances of life and order coming from an explosion, or how earth is the only know planet that is believed to be able to sustain life. Your theory is based on the knowledge of what man came up with for man to relate to. Thus it has no bearings to an unlimited source of knowledge. We only have the knowledge that is allowed to us. Even with that, a dog knows love. A dog understands when his owner cares. A dog cannot get excited enough knowing his savior is coming back again. Thus it is with me and my Savior Jesus Christ. We do not have to understand everything to be able to enjoy the King's presence and to know the best is yet ahead, beyond any numbers we can ever come up with in our heads. Eternity is placed in our hearts. Can you put a mathematical equation on either one of those two things my friend? May you too find the way into the love of God. God bless.

welcome to Worthy

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. In my research, these scriptures you brought seems to fit nicely with my thoughts as well. In one sense, The Word is another title to Christ found in the following: New International Version (©1984) Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. In another sense the word, as it is called, is found rooted in Creation: Psalm 33:6 New International Version (©1984) By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth. Wisdom 9:1 Oh God -- You have made all things by your word. I guess in my conclusion it is used as a name given, an expression of inspiration, a source of revelation. God is the word. The word is within us. The word is God breathed. A little tricky to wrap our heads around but we cannot have the word without God and cannot have God without His word. (Which He can place in our hearts without the bible if we do not have access to one) Good topic

Forgive me. For I have not dived into this thread much to say the least, but a question for those who believe Hebrews was not talking about the 'saved'. Were the following people saved: 2 Corinthians 13:5 Can we fail the test? 1 Timothy 1:19-20 Hymenaeus and Alexander -- shipwrecked? 2 Timothy 1:14 all in Asia James 5:19-20 brethren straying from the truth? 2 Peter 2:14-15; 20-22 the righteous returning to their vomit? 3 John 9-10

Hebrews 7:25 New Living Translation (©2007) Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf. The answer is yes, in that on this earth He always offers forgiveness, and He knows what sins you will do all the days of your life even before you are born. However, that does not take away accountability. If one sins, the MUST REPENT and ask Jessus Lord for forgiveness. God bless

This type of prophecy is common. Photo type is one way to look at it. We even saw it with John the Baptist in OT prophecies. Here are a few other prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the same manner. Yes, these type of prophecies can both be seen as experienced by the OT author as well is a prophecy. Here we go: << Isaiah 7 >> New International Version 1984 10Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11“Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.” 12But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.” 13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14Therefore the Lord himself will give youc a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, andd will call him Immanuel.e 15He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. 16But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.” with Luke 1:26-31 << Jeremiah 31 >> New International Version 1984 15This is what the Lord says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more.” 16This is what the Lord says: “Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded,” declares the Lord. “They will return from the land of the enemy. 17So there is hope for your future,” with Matthew 2:16-18 << Hosea 11 >> New International Version 1984 God’s Love for Israel 1“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2But the more Ia called Israel, the further they went from me.b They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images. with 2:14-15 << Malachi 4 >> New International Version 1984 5“See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.” with Matthew 11:13-14 If you need any help with more understanding of these verses please lat me know. There are many more just like them. Some are believed to be three fold, meaning first, a near prophecy, second, a distant prophecy (often in relation to Christ Jesus) and thirdly, a prophecy concerning the fulfillment of the end times. Though God has taught me much, He has much more to teach me. LOL However, if there is of any way I can be of help please let me know. God bless PS a couple that are just like your verse in question are Isa 53:1; Ps 41:9; Zech 11:12; Ps 35:11; and several others and in order relates to John 12:37-38; Luke 23:47-48; Matt 26:14; and Mark 15:47

1 Chron. 24 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. [Rev. 5:9,10] Thank you Joi. because this point has already been questioned (I understand, I rarely read an entire thread myself before responding), I am just going to post my earlier questions: I could be wrong but it does seem that these thrones are given just as Jesus states, at the renewal of all things. We seem to get a clear picture of this well after Revelation chapter 4. << Revelation 20 >> King James Version 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Than, if such is true, the twenty four thrones of chapter cannot be of the ones mentioned Matthew. Matthew 25:31 also implies this. This has lead me through the Spirit to one more time take a real close look at Revelation. This next verse is usually used as proof of the elders representing the saints of old and new. Revelation 5 6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (1) If this is correct, would not the four beast also be the saints, as they sing the same song? (2) Why did the KJV use the word "us", when it is not found that way in the original nor do most translations translate it that way? http://interlinearbible.org/revelation/5-9.htm It seems, as most translations put it, it should read more like this: New International Version (©1984) And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. thus removing the implication that the elders or beast were referring to themselves when singing this song. (3) It seems that instead of the assumption the church is represented as the elders, that the church, the part that have been slain or are now gone from earth, are under the alter of God: Revelation 6 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (4) It seems to me the elders and the saints are always listed in contrast to each other rather than the same or together in the book of Revelation: Revelation 7 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (5) Last but not least for now, it seems the bible makes clear when it is the saints who are singing the songs. Revelation 15 2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. I saw many other passages supporting the above statements in Revelation but will use if requested. Also interesting to note, other than Jesus, John only speaks at the beginning of Revelation as an angel relaying the messages to him. In Revelation, we find both an elder and an angel relating things to him. Are they the same? If not, are they both angels? These are just questions as most certainly I have not concluded an answer. I just like to take away some possible answers to help come up with a good possibility. thank you for replying. God bless Joi

Thanks for the comments. I had thought of the fact John saw 24, thus not including himself, before but the response from some is John was seeing the 24 is a representation of the entire church and not necessarily 24 actual humans thus I had left that aspect out, but it does hold a good point any way. I would agree with you in part on your second comment. The trouble for me is this. Many that have various doctrines use passages like these (the 24 elders) to make a case for their own doctrine. Thus, in doing so, their doctrine seems questionable from the start as scripture like this does not make anything concrete relating to doctrine. To me, that is why some off beat questions do become important. More so, when certain doctrine goes against what seems plain in the bible. However, in the end, all intense, or heated debates are worthless if they do not include Jesus Christ is God, the only way to heaven, and the forgiver of sins. The whole purpose of being on this earth is to show Jesus, share Jesus, and hopefully be of service to God to draw others to the only family that matters in the end. Whoever is not part of Gods family, in the end, has no family. God bless