Rick

It amazes me how that some can see baptism as a saving experience. No one has ever been saved through baptism. Not one! If baptism alone saved, Then Christ died in vain! His sacrifice would not have been needed. Not one drop of His blood would have needed to have been shed. If the blood of bulls and goats never took away sin, why would anyone think that water baptism would? " Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." Acts 10:47-48. In the above verse its clear that they had received the Holy Ghost and had not yet been baptized. What event led to them receiving the holy Ghost before baptism? The answer lies in verses 43-44 that precedes their receiving the Holy Ghost. " To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all of them that heard the word." Thats a very simple thing to understand. And it can be seen in the context of John 3:16. " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life" John 3:16. There was no mention of baptism in John 3:16. But eternal life is mentioned. Baptism is a commandment. But it does not save. Salvation only comes through belief in Jesus Christ. Rick Ohhhh... and Gary, I understand ya just fine Bro! lol

Mobile21:

I remember hearing a preacher describe once, the difference between faith and trust. He described a scene taking place at niagra falls, where a tightrope was stretched across the falls. There is a man at one end of the falls with a wheelbarrel, who declares that he can push the wheelbarrel across the falls without falling off, or losing the wheelbarrel. Faith in the man says that he can indeed do it! That he can do what he says he can! and that he will make it across, just as he says he will. But then comes trust. lol Trusting the Lord in your faith, requires that you get in that wheelbarrel while the man pushes it across niagra falls. Faith is believing in God's ability to do what He says. Trusting requires that through faith, we put away our fears, our understanding , etc...and leave everything in God's hands. Knowing that he will deliver us to the other side, Just as He said He would. Life requires much faith. Some times more so, than at others, but in each case our faith in Jesus Christ is well founded. He can do what He says He can do! He has never, and will not ever fail. Rick

-SHOCKINGsimply shocking!!LETS HANG THA JUDGE It's a terrible shame that so many children are becoming victims of predators. Where I live we have had 6 cases that have become public in the past 2 weeks. It disgusts me to hear of some pervert exposing himself to children, or sexually abusing some innocent child. And it's not only limited to men, One case involved a female school teacher abusing a male student. Then to hear that some judge failed to protect the public from a convicted sex offender because he can see where it would be an infringement upon their rights? What about the rights of the ones who have been assaulted or abused? Is this judge aware that they most certainly will face a lifetime of torment from the memories of a single assault. That it will affect their lives in such a way that many will not be able to function normally in society, and will have a lifelong fear to live with? And that is if they survived the incident. Which some don't. I for one am fed up with the leniency criminals are being given. Its a disgrace to the law abiding citizen to see liberalism replace morality, and tolerance replace common sense. As a christian you strive to do what is right, while living in a society where anything goes. Where you have those that use their positions of authority and leadership, do more harm to society than good. But in the case of someone harming a child, No precaution to protect the safety of a child should be overlooked. If the laws protect the criminal, then they should be changed. If the elected officials will not enforce the laws that protect the innocent, then they should be changed as well. Rick

And with that post I whole heartedly, and with complete confidence, agree 100%! Nice post ! Keep em' coming!

Of course baptism didn't save Jesus, what Jesus did is to institute the sacrament of baptism and to demonstrate the true action of the Holy Spirit in it. Mobile21: Physical baptism was being performed by John before Jesus approached him. It was already instituted. Jesus did not require John to change anything in the manner in which he was previously baptizing. John distuinguished between the baptizing he was performing and the baptism that Jesus would perform. " And I knew Him not: but that He sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon Whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." John 1: 33. Jesus had already instituted physical water baptism through John. From the above verse, would you agree that it reveals that Jesus provides a seperate baptism in the Holy Ghost? If you can agree with that, since it is what the scriptures state, then a question ...If salvation came through baptism, then why would Christ have to provide a seperate baptism in the Holy Ghost? If the first water baptism caused the one being baptized to receive the Holy Ghost, then there would be no need for the second. Since it would save the one being baptized. They would already be indwelt with the Holy Ghost. But yet John distuinguishes between water baptism and a baptism into Jesus. " And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coast came to Ephesus, and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? and they said unto Him, we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance. Saying unto the people, that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them, and they spake with tongues , and prophesied. " Acts 19:1-6. This reveals that believing on Jesus preceeded baptism, and that water baptism in itself was not enough to receive the Holy Ghost. Would you agree that receiving the Holy Ghost is an integral part of salvation? Keep in mind that they did not have the Holy Ghost beforehand, but afterwards. Let's see what the scriptures say about the Holy Ghost. " But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. " Romans 8:9. So what do you think? Rick

First of all, Let me point out to who the questions were directed. You might to scroll up and check it out again. But since you have commented, lets just go with it...lol We have scripture telling us that John's baptism was just simply a baptism of repentance, and that the baptism we participate in WITH Jesus (Romans 6:1-9), that is the baptism we have now, which is for salvation (1 Peter 3:21). Jesus had no sin, he was baptized as an example of the necisity <sp?> it would later present. Whoa! Hold the train! lol If Jesus was baptized as an example of the necessity of baptism... If John's baptism was simply a baptism of repentance.. Which is it? It cant be both, Jesus had no sin..If Jesus was baptized as an act of repentance, it becomes a blasphemous statement. Since He was sinless. So Jesus's baptism was not a baptism of repentance. And the baptism did not save Him. But... If Jesus was baptized in order set an example for the believer, Then baptism does not save. It just provides an example and fulfills the commandment of God. Wait a minute! They both have the same conclusion... When Jesus came, something changed huh? lol Baptism does not save. It is an outward expression, of an inward event. It fulfills the command of God to be baptized. It is representative of our taking part in the death, burial, and ressurection of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is symbolically entering into a watery grave, and being raised to newness of life through Christ. Experiencing that newness of life comes from a baptism in Christ, through the rejuvenation of the Holy Spirit. That is a baptism that saves. " No... Don't take my word on it, take God's word on it. In Acts 8, Simon the Sorceror attempted to buy the gift of "laying on hands," and for it his salvation was lost (however, it was still possible for him to attain it again through prayer of forgiveness)." Im not taking your word for it...lol Anyone who takes anything other than God's Word would be making a grave mistake in basing their beliefs on man's word and not God's. As for Simon the sorcerer...I think you are reading something into the scriptures that is not there. Does it say anywhere in Acts 8, that Simon was lost? No it doesnt! Let's be careful not to add to, or take away from God's Word. Thats a serious error. Rick

Of course you will take his opinion, he agrees with you, even if you have no idea what he has said in that article. I personally am not up for formal debates, but please show me a link to this debate. if he is anything like Hovind, he will probably only participate in verbal debates, where it is not about facts, but persuasiveness. Of course I will take the word of a christian, a brother, a scientist, who is a professor emeritus at M.I.T. over the chat room postings of someone who did not even read the post completely, or they would have seen that he indeed does written debates, and that the link was provided in the previous post to his site. Im very careful about the sources of information I take to heart, and refuse to believe anything that isn't credible, grounded in God's Word, and isn't just the personal opinions of some mis-informed pseudo scientist trying to establish falsehood as fact, based on inerrant scientific theories. I do have my principles ya know! lol Just for the record, he likes to leave religion out of the picture and deal only with the scientific facts. Hope you enjoy ! Rick

Very well said Yod! To Mobile21: Was Jesus saved by John when he was baptized? If salvation comes from baptism, then it leaves a dilemma doesnt it? If baptism is a part of salvation, then again, why would Christ need to be baptized? Did Jesus have a need to be saved? Think carefully.... lol " Baptism in and of itself will hold no key to salvation. I'm sure we can all agree that salvation is in fact a free gift of God, according to Ephesians 2:8. " Isnt that against catholic beliefs? Just curious why you quoted it ..... , then make the statement that it is necessary for salvation. Isnt that a contradiction?

Just for the record , the information I provided in the post was a quote from Dr. Walt Brown, from the link I posted at the bottom of the page. A little information about Dr. Brown. [ QUOTE ] " Walt Brown received a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) where he was a National Science Foundation Fellow. He has taught college courses in physics, mathematics, and computer science. Brown is a retired full colonel (Air Force), West Point graduate, and former Army ranger and paratrooper. Assignments during his 21 years in the military included: Director of Benet Research, Development, and Engineering Laboratories in Albany, New York; tenured associate professor at the U.S. Air Force Academy; and Chief of Science and Technology Studies at the Air War College. For much of his life, Walt Brown was an evolutionist, but after many years of study, he became convinced of the scientific validity of creation and a global flood. Since retiring from the military in 1980, Dr. Brown has been the Director of the Center for Scientific Creation and has worked full time in research, writing, and speaking on origins. " " Written Debate The issue is: Does the scientific evidence favor creation or evolution? Dr. Brown

Jesus was baptized of John, did John save Him? Did baptizing save? According to your statements, yes it did. There's already post's that address this topic presented on the boards . As for the judgemental statements concerning traditions. Many here do not follow traditions , but the Word of God concerning what they believe. If it's truth and in God's word, we will accept it. Rick

Something to toss into the mix:

Nice Post CWJ! You can also include : " In Whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation: In Whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased posession, unto the praise of His glory." " Eph. 1: 13-14. We were bought with a price. Sealed with the Holy Spirit. " And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" Eph. 4:30 One of my favorites, since it declares unto what time the seal is in effect. Seals are very hard to open. I like to see the above verse in the light of Rev. Chpt . 5 concerning the book that was sealed. Let me know what you think after reading Rev. 5. God bless Bro!

That statement will never keep you out of that pit of hell. God saved Israel many times over, until they went beyond the point of no return. That didn't make them anyless saved before they reached it. They could have chosen not to go there, and He kept telling them that fact, but they refused to listen. Don't make that same mistake. Those that trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as the atonement for their sins will never be lost. It is only those that trust in their works or some other "god" of self that has to worry about being lost. Its very simple, if you are not trusting Jesus Christ for your salvation alone, your as lost today as you were when you started out. You can talk the talk all you want. But the fact is, if a person can claim salvation and think they can remain sinless unto salvation, they are very deceived. If you began under the Grace of God, and fall away..return unto works, I think it's addressed as being bewitched. The Galatians were bewitched in this manner. " O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you ? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the spirit, by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit , are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? If it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you, the Spirit , and worketh miracles among you, doeth He it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, forseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: For it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that NO MAN is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. " We have been redeemed from the curse of the law. Salvation is by Grace through Faith, and not of ourselves. If you think for one minute that you will be saved because you adhered to a life that was good enough to save you, you are sadly mistaken. You seem to point out those under the law as the examples you gave, did not fulfill the law and were therefore not saved. But you fail to see they could not be saved through the law. No flesh being justified by the works of the law means NO FLESH, INCLUDING YOUR OWN. Im sure you lead a fearful life. Having to make sure that every " t" is crossed and every " i " dotted, to ensure that you will be saved. Or if you forget to ask for forgiveness, or are suddenly taken before you have the chance to ask....or do not see a particular wrong as a sin and stumble along the way and become lost according to your own beliefs. You are under bondage. Being made a slave unto the law. There is freedom in Jesus Christ! For the one who the Son sets free, is free indeed! Please come to see the truth before it's too late. You can be free ! Its a plain fact. If your salvation is outside of Jesus Christ alone, you have no salvation to begin with. Being saved is only something you can hope for, not obtain. When you come to know Christ as the Saviour, you will understand that in Him is salvation, and that it is not of us. And you will understand as well, what a wonderful salvation it is, and how precious His shed blood is. Instead of arguing over what salvation is, How about recieving it and knowing in Whom it is. Jesus Christ is our salvation. We have nothing to boast of in ourselves, no works of righteousness which we have done. But we can point you to Christ! We can show you His righteousness! A righteousness that is accounted to us. Not by our works, But by His. And it is in Christ that we stand, and that we rest. In Him we have assurance of salvation. Rick

Thanks Cats! I enjoyed reading your response as well as those of traveller and yod and cheercoach. I think some terrific points have been made, and that its amazing how the Holy Spirit has touched each of our lives. I believe yod made an impact statement when he stated that a no today might turn into a yes tomorrow. I think its important to remember that our timing ( desire ) and God's timing ( will ) are not always in sync. And that the leading of the Holy Spirit is of necessity when witnessing to people about Christ. I understand that there is a difficulty that has been placed on being able to share Christ with co-workers , students, etc. in most places, since any form of religious activity is usually prohibited. But even so, there is a need to share the gospel with them as well. I see where Cats was blessed to have a boss that placed his love for the truth above what has become socially acceptable and shared with her the truth of God's love for us. I see where a radio ministry was used to reach cheercoach, and where traveller was inspired by other christians, much like myself. But in each case, it is the Holy Spirit Who is calling us to the Lord. I realize prayer is an integral part in our asking for our loved ones to be saved. But just as importantly is the life we reveal to them. Our prayers should also be for ourselves as well. That we may live a life that reflects the love of the Lord in us. And not become a hindrance to them by living a life that is in contrast to the life of Christ we share. Rick

Awesome responses! I thank each of you for sharing. Sharing your heart in this respect is a form of witnessing, and is a help to others who may need guidance in approaching someone they know who isn't saved. As for myself, My greatest inspiration was my grandparents. They were the most Godly people I ever knew. Although they were somewhat old fashioned in their approach to life, I saw from an early age that they were very loving. They had raised a large family, and lived on a meager income, but yet they still reached out to help others around them. I will never forget the times that I saw them reading their Bibles, and overheard their prayers as a small child, as they cried and called out and asked God to watch over their family, and to keep them all safe. In them I saw a meekness that was borne out of love. And yet I saw the strength they posessed as they worked hard well into their later years to make ends meet. Working on a farm was hard work, and yet they never complained, and only thanked God for what they recieved. I remember many occasions where the Lord was spoken of. I remember the times that others would come to them, and ask for their prayer's because someone was sick, or because they had a need. I think many believed they had a special relationship with God, and for some un-explained reason He would always answer their prayers. Later I too began to feel that way as I saw many of the prayers they prayed answered, in spite of what seemed like impossible odds against it. My grandparents were the ones who instilled into me my first impression of God. And although I wouldnt be saved until many years later. It was an image I would always remember. That God was real, and He was alive, and was someone who listened and cared. I was invited to a small country church in my early 20's, where although I knew about God, I didnt realize that I didnt know Him personally. I had attended the sunday services for a couple of weeks and was comfortable sitting in the back pews, near the door, in case I decided I was ready to leave before the service was over...lol I look back and I remember well, how one particular Sunday, the sermon seemed to be directed at me. I remember the conviction of the Holy Spirit being upon me, and How I looked around to see if anyone else saw the shaking that was taking place in my body, particularly my legs.....lol I can laugh now, but the truth is, that I was a sinner on my way to hell...and it was anything but funny at the time. In this particular small country church, it was common for the pastor to give an altar call at the end of the service. I remember thinking I could head out the door...but I knew in my heart, that it was not what I truly wanted. I made the trip to the altar, where I called out to God to save me. It was a decision I have never regretted. There have been times in my life that I failed to be what God had called me to be, but I knew God wasnt finished with me. I have come to learn through the years that being saved is a growing experience that continues every day of our life. And that God is always working within us to shape us, and mold us into the individuals He wants us to be. He began a work in us that He will finish. And in His love, I have found it to be a privilege to be able to call Him my Lord! And thank Him tremendously for loving me. Rick

I was scanning over the forum boards and thought of all the lives that have been touched by the posts, and how that at some point in each of our lives, we were witnessed to by someone who cared enough about our soul to share God's love with us. For we that trust the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, it was the beginning of a life changing experience for us, and also changed our eternal destination. Yet none of us would have the assurance, and the peace of mind that we have today, if someone had not brought the truth of God's Word to us. We can each thank God, that through His Holy Spirit, He led others to be vessels for delivering unto us His message of love to us. It's for this reason that I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread on personal witnessing. A way of sharing the means by which you may have heard the plan of salvation yourself, or a way that you may have shared the love of God with someone else. And hopefully submit helpful ways for others to share with their friends, family members, and other's, any suggestions, that may help make their personal witnessing more effective. Many are not taught effective ways of sharing God's Word with others, and may in fact be more of a hindrance to the Gospel being welcomed than they realize. Hopefully, we can each be blessed, not only by recalling our own personal experiences, but in helping others to be more effective in taking the message of salvation to others. Any suggestions? Rick

-VERY GOOD post--VERY interesting statements----I agree that GOD has been & is calling OUT HIS -BRIDE---& I am FIRMLY convinced that HE is using these very boards to;CALL-OUT-HUMBLE-TEACH-- -EQUIP-UNIFY-PURIFY-CLEANSE---PURGE OUT THE DROSS---of HIS BRIDE----- -IF ya look around these boards you will find that GOD{in HIS-SOVERIGNITY}HAS delivered-- -rescued & called out many that were in cults--DECEIVED-BY & LED-into those cults by false-brothers -wolves in sheeps-clothing----SOME would say "coincidence"??}that these sheep {FOUND??} this -ministry??- {yupp & pigs fly}THESE sheep have been loved--taught{GOD'S TRUE WORD!!} -LOVED-held in the arms of these{MINISTERS OF GOD} comforted--consoled--{RESTORED!!!}NOW -these same sheep are teaching{while still learning}the new sheep that GOD is leading to THIS -ministry----THIS PLACE IS church--school--fellowship--FOOD---for those that can NO longer abide -the hypocrisy--deception--corruption--deadness- of the so-called "CHURCH"that neither teach nor -KNOW GOD'S WORD.......SO look around in these threads---you will FIND THE BRIDE OF CHRIST here -in TRAINING---fellowship---BUT more importantly A BRIDE LEARNING TO LOVE HER BRIDEGROOM & -TO DRAW CLOSER TO HIM........ AAAAAAAMEN!!!!!!!

Unbelievable! I often wonder why it is that people that claim to be saved can't see the truth in God's Word. His son, you quote a verse because it uses the word endure? LOL Read what it is your posting up son! lol There is a meat that endures unto everlasting life, That the Son of man ( Jesus ) shall GIVE you. ( Not meat that you are earning or working for, but is given unto you.) Read the Word of God! Pray for understanding from the Holy Spirit. Chew on that meat for awhile, before you swallow....lol !

Amen!

Yap I know what you mean. Just trying to figure out what they are trying to say gets my head a spinning and my eyes strained. Then I wander if it's worth going back and reading it again so that I might figure it out. After wasting an hour or more trying to figure out their first few words I just give up and try harder the next time. Do you think I'm being counter productive? :upsided: :bright: Brad, Im sorry for the frustration you experience in reading our light hearted, silly attempt at amusing each other. Sometimes I read them and scratch my head too. Most times I wonder if it makes sense as well. So in order to make it easier to understand, Gary and I have compiled a book " Unnerstanden da sudder'n Jibberish fer Dummies". It's not actually on the market yet, but we hope to see it become a best seller. It can be purchased directly from either Gary or Myself at: Make Gary and Rick Bodaciously Wealthy!! P.o. Box 2311 Nashville, Tn. 37413 or, For those that need instant clarification or understanding of any part of the message post, you can call our clarification hotline at : 1-800- WAZZZUP (You will be charged $19.95 per minute on your phone bill. If placed on hold, please wait until an operator finishes what they are doing , as we anticipate a high order volume. Avg. waiting time is 1.5 hours.) Also, Please refer to which post you are having a problem in understanding when ordering. And hopefully you won't take this seriously either...lol God Bless! Rick

His son, Once again you use your personal experiences to confirm your beliefs. Using an analogy of being in the woods does not provide credibility to your statement. I too live in an area with a large wooded section. I could use the analogy that When I Knew where I was going, and knew how to get there, I never got lost. Its only when you have to stumble around in unfamiliar ground with no direction that you become lost. With Jesus providing the direction, and the Holy Spirit guiding each step of the way, it doesnt become an issue of where are you going, but when will you get there. Rick

Maybe it would help if you read the whole thread. That issue has already been addressed and explained. Rick