JewishHeart

Watch it... it is very good! www.sidroth.org/tvbroadcasts.htm

Don't get me wrong now... when you preach the gospel to the Jewish people, one of the biggest strongholds to overcome and biggest blocks for them to receive the gospel is the "Oral Law." Once you can get them to see this is not authorative (there are scriptures in Deuteronomy that show this).... then basically all you have is the Tanach. Once you come to them eye to eye from the Tanach without the oral torah... only Yeshua can be Messiah. Even with the oral torah, which I believe is futile to argue with, a case can be show that Yeshua is Messiah--- but this is only for the very educated. For the simple person... the biggest witness you can show is to show love, the power of God, and proof the oral Torah is not authorotative. Although dont show pride like you know more than the oral torah... respect it... some of it is very wise and there are people who wrote it who spent most of their life dissecting verses most christians dont even think about..... just say it may be wise... but not authoratative.

I've heard every messianic version of this scripture. Although the milk/meat thing is not scripture and the oral law should never be seen as authorative... we should at least give the sages of Judaism a chance as they were wise men, just as we would give Matthew Henry a chance in the christian world. The Jewish people have studied scriptures and have made very wise comments and much study and also very... escuse me for the comment....stupid comments (like Rivka or Rebecca was three years old when feeding Isaacs herd of camels water ). Here is the rabbinic interpretation to why they believe it is meat-milk seperation... Torah promotes always not mixing life and death together. It was considered, for instance, unclean for a Levite to step into a cemetery. It is considered unclean to touch a dead carcus that wasn't slaughtered right. Et al... Meat represents death. Milk represents a life giving substance given to the baby. The basis of the interpretation is "Don't mix life and death together." This parallels the verse from Deuteronomy 28 "uvcharta b'chaiim" ..." you have the choice, life and death, choose life." You may disagree or agree with this interpretation, maybe its speculation, but so is every other messianic interpretation (pagan roots of kid in moms milk, not humane, not killing a baby and only eating grown animals, I even heard a messianic interpretation that it is a rule for Shavuot). In other words, there are lots of interpretations to choose from when weighing the facts of this scripture, in your study, do not rule out altogher with pride the interpretation of the sages as they were wise in some extents. You have to at least admit that the rabbinic interpretation is just interesting. The rabis were just men, true, but so are you. They were capable of the same exegetical steps that you are today and are capable of the same exegetical revelations and fallacies that you are today as well. You do have something they do not have, the Holy Spirit, but hey, I have seen some awesome revelation come from the Orthodox world that I could only admit that it has to be divine and Spirit-led revelation. For instance, we once heard a rabi teach about the scripture "Build me a temple and I will dwell among you." talk about the "among you" in Hebrew is "bitucham"...his interpretation is that God wants to live inside of us and this is his heart for us to be his temple as well. It shocked us to hear a rabi say this wise revelation from the Spirit.

Sue, Great Point!

The gospel according to Joel Olsteen, Put on a smile and have your best life now.

I know there is flesh in the moves like Toronto, Brownsville, et. al. I will say this though... I would rather have Spirit with some flesh trying to win people.... than... Flesh with some Spirit ( Seeker Sensetive)...! I'm not saying G-d doesn't use the seeker gospel.... but it doesn't create disciples of Messiah that will be effective. I just got back from the Toronto Blessing... it lit my fire to preach to t he lost in a greater way! It taught me compassion and travail for lost souls (Randy Clark's message about compassion for souls was great!).

SuperJew, Hahaha, you are highly mistaken... in Brownsville 100,000's were saved. Prostitutes, drug addicts, you name it! The baptisms each night were moving! I saw the change in people's lives. Now there are over 70 missionaries on the field that were saved at the Brownsville Revival and many more former missionaries touched to go on. In Toronto many were healed. From Toronto Heidi Baker was touched which brought food, healing, and salvation to thousands in Mozambique. John Wimber taught himself the cause of the poor. Blood 'N Fire is another ministry in downtown Atlanta that was touched by the renewal and is ministering to the poor. Not to mention Provision International ( The Foundry and Fortress Felllowship).... a ministry of Rick Joyner's MorningStar.... reaches the ghettos of Nashville. Since they have been there has not been a shooting and it even made the news. Jackie Pullinger in Hong Kong who lives among the poor also was touched by renewal. MANY MANY MORE... Can't get into it all now.

SuperJew, The Presence and glory of G-d is not gnosticism! It is the inheritance of the saints.

The 90's and early 2,000's was a time in which the Holy Spirit swept His church with the glory of G-d, from places like Toronto, Brownsville, Redding, Sunderland, Brazil, Argentina, Mozambique, Smithton, Ruth Heflin, Rodney Howard-Browne, Kansas City, and Mahesh Chavda. People were beginning to hunger and thirst for the presence and glory of G-d once again. People quit relying on the arm of the flesh, and threw themselves into the arm of the Spirit. People were exploring the great depths of miracles, healings, and signs and wonders. It wasn't like the moves before in that G-d was not using superstars anymore, but "little ole me's" as Randy Clark put it. Ther were the excesses and some displays of flesh, but for the most part it was the simple glory of G-d. I remember soaking in the glory for hours and then going out to win a lost generation with the power of G-d. Now the people in this movement has fallen through the cracks in one of two directions and it just grieves me. 1.) The hyper apostle/prophetic movement- the Elijah List direction ( I am very pro-apostles and prophets for today, but what is being spoken of here is just plain exageration and prophetic nonsense). It went from presence to titles and prophecies the simple people can't reach. It went from making the presence of G-d simple to having to understand the "paradigm shift" of the apostolic move in order to receive that "breaker anointing." This grieves me! What ever happened to the simple presence of G-d? To the "Jesus Loves You" father-heart emphasis? To holiness? To the glory? 2.) Seeker Sensetive/Church Growth/Purpose Driven Church - I have seen many churches once again falling into this trap of the enemy. What was once spelled out as a move of the Spirit from Toronto that was widespread in almost every Vineyard church throughout the nineties, Vineyard now has embraced the seeker model that it has always been known for- but this time without the moving of the Holy Spirit, fueled by the "Purpose Driven Church." Church growth has become the motto. Why not? If Willow Creek, Saddleback, and Lakewood are the biggest churches in America; their successes must be of G-d! Numbers become more than substance. Leadership seminars have replaced soaking seminars. Growth statistics of today has replaced the power of yesterday. The arm of flesh is more trustworthy now than the power of the Spirit. "Cultural Sensetivity" is highrised above "Spirit sensetivity." Drama has replaced pure discipleship and good teaching. Cultural Relevance is a greater tool than power evangelism. As the Apostle Paul stated, " I have not come with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, but by the eloquence of men and cultural relevance; that your faith may not be based on the Spirit's power, but on the eloquence of men and cultural relevance." The Ten Commandments have been replaced by the Ten Keys to Grow a Church. The Vineyard is not the only one diving into this cesspool of success. The Assemblies of G-d has dived head over heals. Many AG churches do not even speak in tongues or have healings any more in fear that it might drive away a seeker. Long church services in which the glory of G-d fell and nobody wanted to leave has been replaced with pop psycho-sermons about " Your Best Life Now." The face radiating with the glory of G-d has now been replaced with the face radiating with a smile... it makes a better world. The worst part, many of the churches embracing the Seeker Driven Life for Your Best Life Now.... are churches that were once enamored by the glory of the L-rd. Can you imagine John Olsteen, a pioneer in the Faith movement, and one who stood for the work of the Spirit despite persecution... has now been replaced by his son who preaches wishy-washy messages. The church that once knew the glories now knows good stories. Why? THE VEIL! 2 Corinthians 3 talks about Moses putting a veil over his face when the glory faded, but we are with unveiled faces constantly reflecting the glory of the L-rd. We should not be like Moses who put that veil over his face. In many of these churches the glory has faded, but instead of praying and asking and waiting for the glory once again... they have nodded their heads in favor to the veil. The veil looks pretty, it allows me to go on, nobody knows the glory has faded, and I keep all my followers. Let this warn us, when the glory has faded from our lives, and the anointing has left us... let us not go on in the flesh for fleshly success results (seeker sensetive mega-churches). Let us hope in the L-rd and he will exchange our power once again, from our power to His power. Let us not go by might, and not by our own power, but by the Spirit of the L-rd! As that old hymn says, "The arm of flesh will fail you... you dare not trust your own."

I learn to take the good and spit out the bad. What the enemy does often is he sows tares among the wheats of every movement so we can destroy the whole field. The WOF movement has many needed and biblical emphasis and to deny these would be to stunt our christian growth: 1.) The Authority of the Believer (in balance). 2.) Identity in Messiah (in balance) 3.) Charismatic experience based on the word and not just on revelation 4.) Biblical Prosperity (in Balance) 5.) Positive Confession (In Balance) 6.) Faith I personally would rather have a WOFer praying for me if I were sick than anybody else. However, the authority of the believer has turned us into bossing around G-d, our identity in Messiah has turned into becoming mini-gods, biblical prosperity has been used to appease people's greed and to manipulate the sheep to make the ministers live ridiculously lavish lifestyles, and positive confession has turned into denial and naiivity, and faith has turned into this ultra-hyper-faith that only the super-christians can accomplish. I think Kenneth Hagin Sr himself warned against fringe WOF beliefs starting with Prosperity when he wrote "Midas Touch." I believe him to be a man of G-d that had a revelation of truth, but many took his teachings overboard. However, I need to know the authority Messiah has delegated to me to set people free and to provide healing in situations. I need to know who I am in Messiah in order to walk with confidence before G-d and men, I need to know that in everything G-d wants my best and is not out to make me poor so I can receive G-d's blessings just to give more to the kingdom (to those ministries that are really bearing fruit and winning souls- missionaries, etc.). I need to know that my words have power and to watch what I say as life and death are in the tongue... I don't need to go overboard by being in denial, however, I do not need to confess curses over my family and watch myself from saying things like , " she is dislexic" when she is only 2 and having trouble reading. I need to confess positively and when she is diagnosed, don't be in denial and recognize the situaiton, but pray for her healing in faith. I need to know how to operate in the faith as a mustard seed to pray for the sick and hurting in this world. We can learn this if we learn to spit out the bad and learn from the good of the WOF movement. I personally find that no denomination or movement is perfect and all of them have their excesses, but all of them also have their strengths. A wise man will build from their strengths, and learn from their weaknesses. I also learn and spit out from all of these movements: Southern Baptist, Vineyard, River/Renewal, Revival, Third Wave, Messianic, House Church, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Latter Rain, Holiness Movement, Grace Movement, Apostle/ Prophetc Movement, Presbyterians, Assembly of G-d, Foursquare, Methodism, Armenianism, Calvinism,Discipleship Movement and many more. I learn from the best and ignore the worst. The only movment I have yet to learn from is the Seeker Sensetive movement. It grieves my spirit. But I know if I look I can find some things to learn from, and alot of things to spit out. I am now writing from a computer at the bed and breakfast I am staying at in the Toronto Blessing (TACF) and am learning alot here. I have felt the love of G-d here in an amazing way more than once. I know there are some excesses and some things not of the Spirit, however there are alot of things that are of the Spirit and I want it! I would rather be in a revival where the Spirit of G-d is moving with some flesh, than no Spirit at all. It is more fleshly to not have the power than it is to have the power with outbursts of flesh sometimes. I am also a Messianic leader. There are alot of excesses in the messianic movement I would say that some is pure sin. However, I love the messianic movement and see it as a wheat field in which the enemy has sowed some tares. I tend to the wheat and trust G-d to take care of the tares while warning the sheep.

I have reconsidered some things and have now changed my stance on the disengagement to "undecided." I know I am supposed to support the government... whether it is G-d's will or not I have no idea. We will see in one week. If it happens or not.

It is funny, many movements mature over time and more of the weirdness just falls away. I am sad to see the messianic movement is getting weirder all the time. It has nothing to do with more or less liturgy, but the doctrine and attitude behind the liturgy they do. However, G-d still has a remnant. I am sure Yod remembers the beginnings of Messianic Judaism in the Jesus movment... I heard it had its problems, but it was alot simpler and purer then.

I am messianic... and attend a messianic congregation in Israel. When I lived in America I went to both a messianic congregation and a church. I loved the liturgy of the messianic congregation, but there were two in my area, and neither had a move of the Spirit. The one I was involved in and helped with was the more liturgical of the two (I might as well go all the way) and I got the moving of the Spirit at a charismatic church. However, the one I was in wasn't "orthodox" or weird like I see some today.... it is now part of MJAA, used to be part of UMJC... even though its very liturgical... it was very much into Jewish outreach, and disagreed with the UMJC's new stance. The other messianic synagogue in town didn't even have aliyat hatorah. However, one thing I always look for in a messianic synagogue is their focus on the One New Man and that they don't outright condemn the church and call it evil. You can find messianic congregations that are less liturgical and condemn the church, and you can even find messianic congregations that are more liturgical, but in a good spirit... and vice versa. It isn't how liturgical it is, it is the spirit and attitudes of the people in the congregation... and that they don't slip into too much weirdness.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pag...d=1123294991447

The Gospel, Disengagement and Civil Disobedience