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Well OK. How about backing up from scripture how you come to this conclusion. And I do not believe that both possitions are true. God's will is free and sovereign but how does that have bearing on both being true. LT There are too many types in the old testament and scripture in the new to go into a study. I dont have the time right now. Perhaps I will do a study sometime. Hey, I got a new project now! But, for one example of salvation in the old testament type is: The Jews were a chosen people and the Gentiles had a choice. The fact that ALL men choose is not the question. It is whether or not the can, are able to choose in the unregenerate man. The Jews were chosen but they still had to choose individually. Only Caleb and Joshua entered the promised land. The rest chose not to believe(Heb. 3:18) You claim that BOTH are true. All you have to do is show where daisy is true if you can. LT Larry I believe the crux of the issue lies in these two understandings: Ge 3:22-24 22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" — 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. NKJV Ro 3:10-12 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." NKJV If we say this was a progression of the leaven of sin so that the beginning statement of God is now null and void Gen 3:22 then you will have difficulty in two areas: Ro 1:20-23 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. NKJV Ro 9:14-18 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. NKJV In our reasoning with God (in obedience Isa 1:18-20) We are required to see Him as completely Holy (the complete absence of Sin in any form or exist) GOD 'IS' HOLINESS Ps 22:3; Jn 17:11. In His Being- Isa 57:15; Lk 1:49. In His Words- Ps 60:6; Jer 23:9, Eph 5:26. In His Works- Lk 23:34. In His Kingdom- Ps 47:8. This is enough for me to resolve my inability to set in the councils of His Sovereignty and mans freedom to choose even in sin.... BUT this much I do know if You put it all upon God then you have God responsible for sin! Allowance is not responsibility for being! As God has accredited satan for being father of sins! This is definitely a path as we see, although narrow, has two sides! >God's Sovereignty ^ Man's choice< Love, Steven Hi Steven, I have been mulling over the last comment in response to my last post for a while now and I am not really sure about your possition. To clarify my understanding, I view God as absolutely sovereign and if He decides to save someone they will be saved. His grace is INVINCIBLE (I do not like the term IRRESISTABLE). The natural man WILL NOT choose to be subject to God. He needs grace to be willing to make that choice. If God does not provide grace to the lost man whoever he may be, he will not choose to be saved. His choice is and always will be to rebell against. God. The will of natural man is subject to his fallen nature. Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. My position? Well I am finding it hard to keep up with this debate as I have been under extreme attack since posting. But I wanted to answer this. My position is that I am able to accept the people who believe they made a choice for salvation as well as the people who say they did not feel they had a choice, but were elected. I myself know I was elected, because Christ allowed me to get in a place in life where I had no more choices. For 40 years I believed in the death, resurrection of Christ, and accepted Him in my heart at 8 yrs, but was not saved. I had demon parasites attached onto my soul, which caused a habitual sin for 35 years. And if I were to die in that 40 years I would have gone to hell, I know it. In the last realization of my life, giving up my fate as I was to believe I was born this way, Jesus came to me and said to my heart "I am not going to protect you anymore, I have to have your all." Then I started to see other Christians who made a choice and scripture examples, and parables, and couldn't understand. Where in a secular TV show, it was revealed to me that God is sovereign even over time/space to where, even though we can not comprehend, God can make two different events happen for us at the same time and both are true. Hence, He is able to make two methods of salvation true with one way through Jesus. Question of logic: Does man have free will? Man has limited free will to pick an object off of a table or to leave it on the table, but not both. Does man really have free will? God in spirit and in his kingdom has full free will and is able to do both, for Himself. Not necessarily for any other creature. My point. (elect) An analogy to my salvation is this: It was like I found myself in a deep river sinking with weights tied to my feet, with only a matter of time to die. I want to live, and in the distance was a cliff the river ran over. Unknown whether the bottom of the cliff was shallow and the waters ankle deep to where I would survive, or very deep, that I could die, if I swam over the cliff. What would any one with thought do? I swam over the cliff not knowing what was behind the proverbial door, but knowing if I stayed I would die. Really? A person wanting to live, and someone telling me I still had a choice. Poppycock! That's stupid. Or, there are those that the life line of Jesus is thrown out to them, and the person sinking does not know if this Person is going to kill them or enslave them for evil once on shore; is that a choice or a chance? The choice to die or the choice to chance. That is illogical. To say, these people still had a choice takes away our soul having the image of God, with worth, value and dignity. The soul is not that stupid or devalued, not to know it is in death's grip. (choice) Yet, there are those about to step into that deep river of death, and hear the word of God not to step in, and they choose to follow the Word and not step in. If this could be real in our own existence, why not in the spiritual existence? Two ways in life, but one Person.

Well OK. How about backing up from scripture how you come to this conclusion. And I do not believe that both possitions are true. God's will is free and sovereige but how does that have bearing on both being true. LT There are too many types in the old testament and scripture in the new to go into a study. I dont have the time right now. Perhaps I will do a study sometime. Hey, I got a new project now! But, for one example of salvation in the old testament type is: The Jews were a chosen people and the Gentiles had a choice.

Interesting view. Do you mind if I ask how God taught you this? I am always interested in learning in what ways people communicate with God. Gary Very good question. I was going to dis it, but took a closer look. God taught me just he did with the artisans in Exodus 31. Never , ever in my life have I had an auditory experience. But I have had every molecule and atom reverberated with the Father's words. And if the soul had atom's they were violently vibrated too. "YOU DARE TAKE REVENGE FROM ME!". I weep continuously for two days saying I'm sorry as you can imagine. I learnt my lesson. I was day dreaming (plaining) of revenge right after I got saved. I didnt know better till that moment. Two weeks later my client paid me. lol

Isn't Jesus our Sabbath? Our rest? In Him, not to work by or of ourselves? The law in the old testament for honoring the Sabbath was always about Jesus. This is why once Jesus came, to fulfil the law, His resurrection, was that fulfilment, and now we know of whom to have our rest instead of what.

There is a part, a section of the brain that can controls vocalizations, the vocal cords, tongue and mouth. God has taught me there are three mechanism's of influence to a person speaking in tongues. 1) The person him/her self accessing, by will, this area of the brain. 2) The Holy Spirit accessing this area 3) A demon accessing this area I have seen the emotions of a person so high and truly see them letting this area of the brain go, then ramble, and wilfully let this area of the brain ramble on its own. Not of satan or holy spirit, but of themselves. So who is going to say, if it is coming spirit good or bad?

The reason why both positions are in the bible is because both are true. God has free will to accomplish both as true.

2 types in 1 Samuel 25:14-44 Its ice-cream! Here God displays his glorious creativity and symbolism in a story of events. He puts the story together so that the construction in and of itself is symbolic, a type and an antitype. Like presenting us a bowl of ice cream half vanilla and half chocolate. Let’s read it together. Are there any types here? Any anti-types? 1 Abigail type of Christ and David type of man: a) v. 19 she sends her servants ahead of her. i. To prepare the way. ii. She is coming after them b) v. 20 She saw him first c) v. 23 She rode on a donkey d) v. 23,24 She goes to him first e) v. 24 she speaks first f) v. 24 She came as a servant g) v. 24 She offered herself up when she was innocent. “On me let this iniquity be!” Later she claims her innocence by saying she “did not see” v. 25. Jesus was innocent and has not seen sin of himself. h) v. 37 The word cuts to the heart and bone (Heb 4:12-13), even when it is stone! i) v. 41 She washed the [disciples] messengers feet 2 David as type of Christ and Abigail type of man: a) V. 14 She was witnessed too. b) V. 18 She bore fruit c) V. 19 Like some of us she realizes her impending doom and searches for her redeemer and judge. d) V. 28 She asks for forgiveness “Please forgive the trespass of your maidservant.” e) V. 28-31 Knowledge of what to do and what is, comes from God. Even though a person may mix their own works in. Obedience to the Word teaches. “He has spoken concerning you, and has appointed you iruler over Israel,” f) V. 35 Whole household is saved from the judge (David). g) V. 35 David cared about her heart, not the gifts. h) V. 37 Abigail is a witness and follows the great commission. (Acts 1:8, Matt. 28:19-20) i) V. 42 She followed the messengers (prophets of truth) j) V. 42 She was married, the old is dead and gone! (Rom. 6:2-8, II Cor 5:17) Abigail used words with intelligence. Indication of inspired knowledge about David. She used a play on words to either see David's reaction or for poetry. "…He shall sling out, as from the pocket of a sling"