allofgrace

You make God out to be some sort of medium who tells the future. The Scripture did not say he knows the future, your making that up. Lets stick with the Word. The scripture list everything God knows. Golden Eagle posted a few of them. It's not God knowing, the outcome of a man. It's not God knowing Adam would sin, or he would have to destroy man with the flood. You have no scripture for that. It's God declaring that which was, which is and that which is to come. It's not fortune telling, it's God setting his eternal Word in Motion. You do know the difference between speaking something and knowing something, right? I'll tell you what God knows. He knows the thoughts he thinks toward you. Thoughts of good, and not thoughts of evil. He can't speak your doom, because he does not have those thoughts. Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. Does he know and plan ahead the man that will go wrong? You believe he does, and therefore you believe he has thoughts against his own will. You think having to judge people that have not followed him is his will, that he plans and knows? That he delights ahead of time suffering caused by turning our backs on him? Did he not say he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked? yet you believe he foreknew from the time he made the spirit of man that their death would give him no pleasure? Amazing the God you know. God has always responded to man by mans actions, he has repented to change his mind to have mercy, and has changed his mind to bring judgement. In that does man change the World being destroyed? Nope, for it being destroyed is not something God used some fortune telling powers to discern, he declared it, and the Word can not fail. Jesus Is Lord. To hear you tell it, God has sure made a lot of good guesses. Your answers are actually too foolish to answer, you must be stirring the water. He told the ending from the beginning that is the God the believer knows.

It is called faith. We don't know what the Holy Spirit prays for, we just trust that it is for the best. Are we trust God with our lives, but not with His praying for us? Why do we have to know what is being said.asked? Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. We have this very same faith when it comes to praying in the Spirit. We don't need to know what is being said to know that it is for our good. Do we know what God is going to do in our future when we pray in our own tongue? No, we have faith that His will will be done. Take one more step in faith and know that what the Holy Spirit prays for us will never harm us. Again, we don't have to know what is being said to know it is of God. I acknowledged above before that claiming that verse by faith is a blessing, but can be achieved by faith in trusting that the Holy Spirit will do as He said He would do, why is it necessary for you to say anything except thank you for interceding on my behalf, that's what many Christians do. As I said, to each his own.

I explained all this in my post to you. I covered the difference in Mark 16 with the gifts of Healing. Ignoring answers is part of the issue with this thread. Listen to those that know, have been around this a long time. Get light, not oppose with confusion. Mark 16 says if you believe in Jesus, then these signs shall follow you. If you lay hands on the sick they shall recover, they shall speak new tongues. If you fall short of this, it's not the scriptures fault, not those who through faith and patience that have inherited these promises, it's you needing to learn more and get more revelation. This constant questioning will only keep God's best from you. Don't do it!!! Jesus Is Lord. I did read but do not agree with all of it. You like others pass over what is written and exclude tongues from some passages and include it where it is not mentioned in another. Healings are like emotions in so many cases, what one says has happened, shortly disappears in most cases that I am aware of like those who walk in emotions, once the emotions leave their faith weakens. Mark 16 says "these signs shall follow them that believe" and it does not exclude any that believe if you read the print. I am content to let it rest. No one that believes in this prayer language which they do not understood has as yet tried to explain how it benefits them if they do not know what is being said. I go with Paul said when he said I had rather speak 5 words that I understand than 10,000 words that I or anyone else doesn't understand because no one is edified. That just makes more sense to me. If anyone feels otherwise, that is their business but that does not mean on open forums and in public that I have to agree with them. After all, Paul also said, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

You are not understanding what I meant by a gift. I am not meaning a gift, like the gifts. I mean a gift like the gift of salvation. When the 3000 were baptized in the book of Acts, I have no reason to think they didn't all speak in tongues. Just because it doesn't mention it, that doesn't mean they didn't do it. How does praying in tongues edify the person praying? Because the Spirit prays for them, according to the will of God. Whenever I pray in tongues, the result is a desire to praise the Lord afterward. That does edify the one praying. Each of us speaks according to our own experience and our own knowledge. I don't rely on others to figure out what the Bible is teaching. I spend my own time studying scripture. Rom 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. This is the passage in Romans and I use it frequently but as I understand it, the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered, so all I do is thank Him for His intercession which He will pray for me according to the will of God on that matter. Why do you think it says He prays with groanings which cannot be uttered, does that not mean, no sound? Just curious. I have never heard anyone groan silently. I just take this to mean that it is not with speech that I would be able to utter, because I don't fully know the mind of God. The Spirit does, so he prays for me according to the Father's will. How can he intercede without speaking? It does not say He doesn't speak, it says it cannot be heard by others, He speaks to God, after all that is who prayer is directed toward. No where does it say He is speaking through anyone. But if anyone wants to, it would be more scriptural to groan rather than to make some form of speech.

You are not understanding what I meant by a gift. I am not meaning a gift, like the gifts. I mean a gift like the gift of salvation. When the 3000 were baptized in the book of Acts, I have no reason to think they didn't all speak in tongues. Just because it doesn't mention it, that doesn't mean they didn't do it. How does praying in tongues edify the person praying? Because the Spirit prays for them, according to the will of God. Whenever I pray in tongues, the result is a desire to praise the Lord afterward. That does edify the one praying. Each of us speaks according to our own experience and our own knowledge. I don't rely on others to figure out what the Bible is teaching. I spend my own time studying scripture. Rom 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. This is the passage in Romans and I use it frequently but as I understand it, the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered, so all I do is thank Him for His intercession which He will pray for me according to the will of God on that matter. Why do you think it says He prays with groanings which cannot be uttered, does that not mean, no sound? Just curious.

Where does it say that conclusion in Mark 16. You say tongues is a gift, which I would agree then, but so is the gift of healing but they are in the same verse and do not differentiate except in your explanation. Another above, not you, stated that tongues was an excise of faith, that is the problem with those who say they speak in this prayer language which they cannot support with a proof text. They have many different answers for the same gift that they say they use. The 3 times tongues is shown in Acts 2, 10, and 19 can just as easily and more so by their context show the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at first as the Lord said at Pentecost, the bringing in of the Gentiles in chapter 10 and going to uttermost part of the then known world. Besides I would not say 3000 being saved and each speaking in different languages would not have made print, if it had happened. Summing it up, each must be fully persuaded in their own mind. I keep reading from those that say they have this prayer language, which they readily admit they don't understand but their spirit is edified, which none can identify why that can help them or anyone else, and I wonder how they know where it comes from? If only they could point to the same text and everyone be able to read it and come to the same conclusion. To each their own.

Yep, Jesus even uses the w-word (witness) to explain the blatant act of witnessing at Pentecost, but some here would rather believe that the Apostles were just praying in languages that randomly just happened to be the same as the language of the unbelievers around them. And, then they chant that I'm ignorant. At Cornelius's house, tongues worked as a sign for Peter. Pentecostals don't believe that this "prayer language" is just for some people chosen by the Holy Spirit. They believe it's for everyone who asks. And, they believe that every "spirit filled" believer speaks in tongues at least once. Jesus said we will receive power to be witnesses after we are filled with the Spirit. He doesn't say we will speak in tongues to be witnesses. Yes, Pentecostals do believe all Spirit filled believers can pray in tongues. They don't believe all Spirit filled believers have the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues. That is what I believe, and you have said nothing to change my mind. I do not know if you are talking to me or my post was answered by the other poster, but I would like to know where in the scripture that the gift of praying in tongues is said to be for every Spirit filled believer. Mark 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” If this is the passage that you are going to mention, notice it says they will speak with new tongues, not they will pray in a tongue. Notice also it says they will take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them, do you practice these things also. And it says they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. Now it doesn't say they may recover but it says the same word will that is mentioned with they will speak with new tongues. So I guess everyone can lay hands on sick who are spirit filled will be doing this also. If that is true how many have you laid hands on the got healed? But of course this may not be your proof text so I will ask that of any of those that have used this passage as their proof to respond. thanks The Bible doesn't come out and say every Spirit filled believe will speak in tongues, but there is a pattern that starts in Acts chapter 2. You even see Cornelius and his household speaking in tongues after they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. Your second point is rather silly, and it is the same mistake some snake handling Pentecostals make. Jesus said we were not to tempt God, and picking up poisonous snakes just to prove a point is tempting God. This is only saying that someone with faith can be in a place like Paul was, where a poisonous viper attached itself to him, and he felt no harm. Yes, it does say that if someone has faith, they shall heal the sick. The key is that they have faith, and they don't waiver in that faith. Often times, we do have faith that God may heal the sick, but we doubt. Jesus said in another place that if we have faith, and don't doubt, we can have whatsoever we ask for in prayer. I don't know where you are going with this? Are you disputing what Jesus said? I would also point out that Jesus said this before Pentecost, not after, and it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues. It is totally irrelivant to this discussion. The theory that you state tongues is a pattern is not written in stone as they say. We do not see any of the 3000 that were saved when Peter preached at Pentecost and it is not mentioned again until the Gentiles are brought into the kingdom, so where is the pattern stated. It isn't. I mentioned the 16 chapter of Mark because I have read that reference here in this discussion as proof but they never mention if they have survived those poisonous snake bites and like you stated about the healing of the sick you lay the blame on their faith. The verse says they will recover, how come it is that they have the faith for the tongues, but not for the many healings that should follow? It would seems there would be many more being healed when tongues are being used because they had the faith for the tongues, why not the same doing the healings, you lay it to their faith, seems like a reasonable question to me? Besides, many would say the last 8 verses are not in the oldest manuscripts. I do not doubt God's word, it the interpretations that others have that create even this discussion, if everyone read it the same, tongues would not even be mentioned.

Yep, Jesus even uses the w-word (witness) to explain the blatant act of witnessing at Pentecost, but some here would rather believe that the Apostles were just praying in languages that randomly just happened to be the same as the language of the unbelievers around them. And, then they chant that I'm ignorant. At Cornelius's house, tongues worked as a sign for Peter. Pentecostals don't believe that this "prayer language" is just for some people chosen by the Holy Spirit. They believe it's for everyone who asks. And, they believe that every "spirit filled" believer speaks in tongues at least once. Jesus said we will receive power to be witnesses after we are filled with the Spirit. He doesn't say we will speak in tongues to be witnesses. Yes, Pentecostals do believe all Spirit filled believers can pray in tongues. They don't believe all Spirit filled believers have the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues. That is what I believe, and you have said nothing to change my mind. I do not know if you are talking to me or my post was answered by the other poster, but I would like to know where in the scripture that the gift of praying in tongues is said to be for every Spirit filled believer. Mark 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” If this is the passage that you are going to mention, notice it says they will speak with new tongues, not they will pray in a tongue. Notice also it says they will take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them, do you practice these things also. And it says they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. Now it doesn't say they may recover but it says the same word will that is mentioned with they will speak with new tongues. So I guess everyone can lay hands on sick who are spirit filled will be doing this also. If that is true how many have you laid hands on the got healed? But of course this may not be your proof text so I will ask that of any of those that have used this passage as their proof to respond. thanks

You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come on you and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the earth. Tongues happened at Pentecost, in Acts to show that Gentiles had been given the same gift as the Jews at Cornelius house and in chapter 19 in Ephesus. It is not mentioned again in the book of Acts and only in the letter to the Corinthians. 1 Cor 12:7-11 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. One body, many members and no where as I recall does it say everyone has the same gift(s). 1 Cor 12:29-30 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? The obvious answer is no, everybody does not have any these gifts, so on the post of tongues, if only some have been given this spiritual gift by the Holy Spirit who distributes them individually as He wills(1Cor12:11) would that mean that only some would enjoy this prayer language? Don't say they got it by faith, because the text says the Holy Spirit distributes gifts individually as He wills, and they are for the building up of the whole body.

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NO, you misunderstand what Paul was saying. That whole section is about doing things decent and in order in a church setting. Do all speak in tongues, NO!!! most should be quite and listen. My wanting to speak in tongues does not over ride the person directing the service and it's rude and immature to interrupt. When the Pastor is praying, some silently and very quite pray in tongues, at prayer night WED they pray in the natural, then everyone prays a bit in tongues. Sometimes the Pastor will speak a few tongues getting directions for the message. All that is decent and in order. I very rarely hear tongues in Church or I am not really listening. There is a time for it, and a time we should be quite. If I am visiting a Baptist Church, you can bet I won't be speaking in tongues. Jesus Is Lord. Then it should be easy for you to point out in the passage I posted to show where I misunderstood what he meant seeing as how I quoted the passage. I do have a fault in believing what is written than what someone tells me should be understood in another way. The whole point of the paragraph was that God is not the author of confusion and if there is no interpreter that means the Holy Spirit did not give the person any thing to say in a foreign language and they chattered on their own.

Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that if there were no interpreter that the person should not speak in an unknown language, he certainly did expect an interpretation or silence. 1 Cor 14:27-33 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Acts 16:30-31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 8:36-37 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” There are more that agree with these. Heb 11 is the understanding and within that element of faith is the understanding based on God's Word alone without any other evidence but God saying so men so moved to incredible actions: Abraham offered his only son, Noah labored up to 100 years to escape something he had never even seen, Moses gave up all the riches and power of Egypt for the Who of God etc. all these based on unseen yet applied faith believed the things of God Heb 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. NKJV thus belief: Nu 14:11 Nu 20:12 Ps 78:22 Ps 78:32 Ps 106:21-22 Ps 106:24 Isa 7:9 Mk 16:17 Jn 3:18-19 Jn 8:24 Gal 5:6 Heb 3:12 Heb 3:18-19 Heb 4:2 Rv 21:8 if you take the time to examine these Scriptures you will see the difference faith applied belief from the belief of demons and devils... Love, Steven I don't get your point if you are replying to my post.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Acts 16:30-31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 8:36-37 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” There are more that agree with these.

You say they heard them speak in their language and because it doesn't say they were preaching that it appears they were just praying in these languages that others recognized as their own even though it doesn't even mentioning the word praying in these verses. Why would someone assume that? Acts 2:1-12 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?” No where in the first 3 verses does it mention that they were praying nor even speaking until the Holy Spirit gave them utterance. They were confused when they heard them speaking in their languages. We do not have to guess what they were saying because v11 says they were talking about the wonderful works of God. I don't think one can get that they were praying by reading these verses. You say praying in tongues is something believers do when we let the Spirit pray when we don't know what to pray. But the only scripture that comes to my mind when I hear this is Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. But v26 says that the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. He doesn't speak any words to us but to the Father for the saints according to the will of God. So this scripture cannot be used to support what you said.

So are you saying that if one is yielding to the flesh, no one should pray that they stop yielding to the flesh? Why would John say for someone not to pray for that? I was typing when the above one was posted but the Gal 6:1 passages shows my point, we are instructed to pray if one is overtaken in a fault.

Speaking in tongues is when a person is Baptised in the Holy Ghost, and the Spirit prays through us in a language we don't understand. It can be a language like Spanish, French, German, etc., or it can be an angelic language. Some believe the purpose of tongues was so the disciples could witness to people in a language they didn't know naturally, but that doesn't make sense, given the fact they began speaking in tongues in the upper room. Why not show from scripture its beginning in the upper room in a language they didn't know and show from scripture its purpose you speak about. thanks

I wrote that in response to these comments that were made. Jesus was speaking what He heard the Father say and this was His pattern throughout His life, He always did what pleased His Father. The Holy Spirit did speak through His apostles and that is recorded as He instructed them to write. But we believe what was written was indeed the word of God because scripture tell us so. But to say that the Holy Spirit works in a manner not instructed in scripture is what opens the door to heresy if we cannot verify by the word that the instruction is true. That was my point. The Holy Spirit indeed guides all believers, some obey more than others but one does not have need the gift of tongues for that reason. That is being led by the Holy Spirit and the word of God, that is a gift of grace but not a gift of the Spirit like the gift of tongues. And why would the Holy Spirit speak in a language which the person would not know, how does that help their understanding. And it is the mind that needs transforming(Rom 12:2) which in turn renews how the new creation in Christ responds to the gospel, the spirit is reborn, it is renewed every morning Paul wrote(2Cor4:14). The examples in scripture that I gave all showed that gifts are for the building up of the body of Christ. So if that is not true those I showed and others that teach the same thing must not be true. Someone says they have a different understanding must show in scripture where that truth comes from. Just because they come to a different understanding does not make it true. If scripture contradicts scripture then the understanding is wrong, not the scriptures. Look at all the foolishness of the laughing doctrine a few years back when they were calling it the Holy Spirit filled laughter or something like that. How many that were led to believe and confessed that was from the Lord. There is no scripture for such a thing regardless of how many accepted it as truth. Each can believe as their heart convicts them, but I see that the word of God says, the word is the lamp to my feet and the light to my path. I will always object to that which has no scriptural foundation and does not walk hand in hand with the word. Others I am sure feel the same way, but just because we disagree is no excuse for not defending our own convictions as long as we support it with scripture. That is why I said if it does not go with the principles taught in scripture and someone says it could be like this, if we believe every what if that comes along, heresy will be the rule instead of the exception.

The example given of the Holy Spirit just speaking to a few in the crowd cannot be shown by any scripture either, just a what if this happened. We are to be instructed by what has happened otherwise heresy has an open door. 1 Pet 4:9-11 Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. 10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. Gifts are given for the ministering of it to one another, not only to oneself. That is a principle shown in the NT. Rom 12:6-8 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Eph 4:11-16 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Reading those passages we can see that everywhere gifts are given to some, not all have the same gift(s) but every member does have 1 or more as given by the Lord for the building up of the body of Christ. No lone ranger gifts are demonstrated. When everyone in the group speaks the same language why would one need to speak a language that only they know? They did not have the completed scriptures in the NT first century but we have. Scripture does not contradict itself and these passages each one state the same principle, gifts are to be used for the benefit of others to build up the complete body of Christ.

That is a direct quote from Romans 8:9, it is the word of God that you don't agree with with, not my opinion.

One cannot even be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit in their heart. Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Then why don't you take this passage and explain to us what it really means, 1 Cor 15:42-54 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Until this was added in I would have agreed . Adding in that one is regenerated before conversion in order that they may believe is where the conflict comes in. I do believe that it is all of grace and that faith comes by hearing and the gospel is the power of God unto salvation just as Romans 1:16 says. Paul says in Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. To take John 3 and say that one is born again prior to believing is reading into the passage what one wants to see, not what is there. To condemn all who have no opportunity to repent makes the call to repentance a farce and condemns all who are born because of simply being born and doing as they were programed to do and is not my idea of God who shows no partiality. Of course those who see it differently are blind to that reasoning and call it just. They don't mind one child of theirs being an elect and the others going to hell because they were simply not elected, they thank that its just grace and tough for their non-elect children. Wonder how many of them tell their wayward children, if you only were elected, it would have been different, but that's the way it goes. They say God doesn't love the non elect so they can't do like Him and love their children, but wait, God tells us to love our enemies and they tell us He doesn't love His non elect. That doesn't sound scriptural, but they are blind to that also. Good thing we all have a copy of the word of God and then we can all be fully persuaded in our own minds by the word of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. You can tell, I don't agree with the all not meaning all who will receive Him, I believe all means all who receives Him He gives the power to become the children of God(John 1:12) They also say they come freely by their own will and receive Him just after they tell you his call to the elect is irresistible. They cannot resist the call and it makes them believe but they do come on their own. It sounds confusing, but not to them. It may sound like I am making light of their reasoning but this is the way I have heard it countless times, if I misstated any facts correct me, thanks.

It is a difficult subject. I just thought about the passage in Romans 1 also where it declares that all are without excuse because His creation reveals His invisible attributes and it is written on the hearts of men but those who reject this light suppress that truth in their lives willingly and a small child could not reason this out in their hearts and purposefully suppress this truth at an early age. Romans 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Rom 7:7-12 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. What does Paul mean by this passage? How did he know about the evil of covetousness, the law said you shall not covet. Tell me how he baby knows about committing any known sin. Where there is no law there is no sin. As for the Matthew passage I do not believe it would apply to someone that did not willfully know to choose good or evil. It would have to come from the heart. This is something that you will have be persuaded of, I cannot see God sending a baby to hell for being born. I forgot about your statement that David's son was like Noah's children, no I don't see the exception lying there for only those, after all they were grown children I believe.