Spirit_Tracker

I agree it's a possibility brother. Thanks for your patience in helping me understand what you were trying to communicate. No problem... but if our relationship is real with God, then don't be afraid to ask Him whatever you would like to know. Although the evidence in the bible is in favor of God loving His animals and restoring them in the new heaven and earth, we can delve further in prayer, asking God whatever we desire to know. That's why it's called a relationship... if everything you knew about your father was in 66 minibooks, wouldn't you inquire beyond them? Despite what people may say and teach, it's not a taboo. God wants us to know about Him... He wants to share with us what we can handle. Joh 16:12-15 NASB "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. (13) "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (14) "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. (15) "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Golden Eagle "Perhaps I missed this. Where in the Bible does it say God has a covenant with animals?" The verses above are very clear of the covenant that God made with all animals. If you reject it, then that's on you. Isaiah talks about the new earth and how animals are there. If that's not the new earth then tell me where the wolf and lamb dwell together or the leopard laying with a young goat? Or the calf with a young lion? He speaks of the new earth... and God speaks of His covenant with all creatures; both man and every living thing. GoldenEagle "Are you saying that, like Paul, God is using you to reveal a new truth not found in the Bible..." Where did I say that? Why would you assume I am making that connection? I am sharing with people what I believe to be true. Did I say that this needs to be taught from the pulpit or that we need to teach this as a doctrine? This is a question that I asked to engage in dialog with others and what they believe as well. TO encourage those to pray and believe that God can answer anything we ask. GoldenEagle "And yet you agree there is no outright support for this concept in the Bible..." There isn't an outright support for or against it. However, there is more evidence that it's highly possible.

God was in the process of revealing his scripture to mankind when the Apostle Paul and the other prophets (writing and not) were dispensing the will and acts of God accompanied with miraculous signs and wonders. I prescribe extreme caution when going "outside" the Bible to find truth. First of all the Bible is the measure for truth. So how can one have truth outside of the measure for truth? I realize we cannot consult the Bible for diagrams for smart phones or computers... which is not so much truth as technology... but the principles for all truth are found in the Bible. And about the afterlife of animals... Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 (KJV) 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 (KJV) 1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; 2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: 3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, 4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; 5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Going outside of the bible to find Truth isn't as uncommon as you might think. It happens all the time, in different ways. A pastor may add his opinion to God's Word to "clarify" it. A lot of theologies are based a handful of verses or the stringing together of many and go far beyond what is said. A lot of commentaries elaborate far beyond than what is actually said in scripture. Books are written with God's authority to speak the Truth to the reader. Of course not all of them, because you can always discern with the spirit. However, again, it is not as uncommon as you want to think it is. God's Spirit is dwelling in us... and His Spirit speaks what God communicates to us. God desires a genuine relationship with us... He desires for us to listen to Him... for anything He has to say. To say that God doesn't speak outside of scripture is what carnal Christians worry about. People abuse God's Word as it is, so why wouldn't they abuse God Word outside of scripture? If a Christian is going to be deceived, they are going to be deceived for what is in scripture and what is not. Deception is deception... Those who are truly in Him and He is us, know that God speaks beyond scriptures. If you think God is telling you something, test it, examine it, compare it to scripture. Nothing God says is ever going to contradict scripture. His Spirit is sealed in us. The "caution" being used is the result of the mature Christian. One who tests and examines everything. I agree there are many who are speaking on behalf of the Spirit of God who have no business to do so. The world is saturated with carnal, lukewarm believers. Of course what I am saying is not baby food. As far the verse you quoted, if you had actually read my post, you would have seen that I already quoted those scriptures. And we must keep in mind that Solomon fell away from God. So many of his writings were included to remind us of the vanity of carnal wisdom. Wisdom didn't save Solomon... Solomon only pondered what happens to animals after they die...

Be careful with this. It is certainly good to go to the Lord in prayer, but be sure not to mistake your own ideas for God's. It's easy to wish something to be true and claim it as an answer to prayer rather than patiently waiting for God's reply. Be careful with this. It is certainly good to go to the Lord in prayer, but be sure not to mistake your own ideas for God's. It's easy to wish something to be true and claim it as an answer to prayer rather than patiently waiting for God's reply. Good reminder in bold. If i am understanding you guys correctly, what you're really saying is that you don't believe God has or will answer this question concerning our pets. ... and if He does answer us it will be along the lines of "You don't need to know right". This is the answer you expect because the outright support for it can't be found in the bible. Which is fine but I want to make sure I understand your perspective... because instead of stating what you believe in this matter, you are challenging mine. Which is to essentially say that you believe that God answering me on this matter is my imagination.

We know God doesn't have the time restriction. My understanding and opinion of it is that God exists on a single continuum. Past, present and future are all but one... Because free will is real time it would suggest that the concept of having multiple outcomes in life is possible. However, unlike what scientist believe, I don't believe that there are multiple instances of ourselves living in different timelines (See parallel universes). But rather God knows the outcome of our choices regardless of what we decide. If He allows us to be tempted, He knows the outcome for whether we overcome this temptation as well as falling into it. In simple terms, this would be considered the path He set for us. Those who walk in the spirit consistently surrendering to His Will stay on this path/timeline. However, those who do not stay on this path, falls away from it, will have a different outcome than what it would have been had they stayed on the path. God is all knowing.. including the outcome of your decisions whichever direction they may take us. From experience, I know God doesn't allow those He loves to stay off the path without providing a way back to it... not only does He provide the Way back to it, but He consistently encourages us back to it. There were times in my life when sin was dominate that God smote me and leveled me so that I fell down flat, in a pit, that had only one direction, up. I had not overcome that sin, but rather He said enough is enough and set forth a collision course (in other words He crushed the sin)... and when God has to crush sin in our lives, there are severe consequences... we get crushed with it so that we can have a fresh start.... an example for this would be a Christian sinning with alcoholism that got into a car accident that lands them into jail for 2 years or more. God would allow this collision course to happen so that the believer will lose his earthly freedom and be instantly delivered from access to alcohol. This makes sense. I was never sentenced to jail or prison, thank God... When I came to a place of ready to repent, He reached His hand down and pulled me up. Again, I reiterate that it's not easy for the believer to fall from grace. God will remain a hold of us until He decides that He has had enough. And even then His plan to let us fall might be so that we can once again repent. but repent is always a choice... there are those whom God allows to fall away that simply do not want to come back even though God provides a way to. Scientist believe that we have parallel time planes. They believe there are multiple versions of yourself on the various planes, each one making different choices in life and thus splitting off and creating different outcomes... although much of our likeness is the same across the planes. This isn't supported from a biblical perspective because it would suggest that there are literally different versions of ourselves. There is only ONE version of ourselves but multiple outcomes is certainly possible.

You and Jie have said it. I agree that a Christian can struggle with sin... commit it, repent of it, commit it, repent of it... etc this is active battle and it can be depressing, painful and at times seem hopeless but God knows the heart and sometimes allows us to continuously be purged through the refiners fire... if the imperfections are still there when we come out, then back in we go... some do this for a large portion of their life... but struggle can't be a sin leading unto death. Sin leading to death, according to my understanding, would be a certain sin that you refuse to repent of... it leads to spiritual death. I can think of several sins that would immediately cause a huge separation between the believer and God...a few that come to mind are; bestiality, sexual perversion (child molestation), incest, murder, adultery, unrepentant drunkard, etc. Can they be repented of? I think so... but these are sins leading to death that we shouldn't bother praying for others on because God is already taking action on it. They committed sins that have specific consequences to them, both on earth and in heaven, prayer or no prayer. For instance there was a man who was sleeping with his father's wife... they didn't go to him and pray with him,... they cast him out. No if, and, or buts... hand them over to Satan... for the destruction of the flesh that they MAY be saved. It doesn't say that so he WILL be saved. We don't know for sure, but it's possible that it was his step-mother and that the father had passed... so this is not illegal in America. We don't have details as to what the case was entirely but we know that is was a "lewd" and sexual perversion. It says he had his fathers wife... could very well have been a single act of perversion... or he might have been married to her... it doesn't say. That being said, verse 11 frankly says any believer living in sexual immorality (fornicator, whoremonger), covetous, idolater, reviler, and swindler... it says don't associate with them and cast them out of your presence .. Now there is sin NOT leading unto death and those would qualify under struggles but still have to be repented of. Gluttony, smoking, revealing and improper attire, inconsistent giver, physical slothfulness, and these can be prayed upon... pray and ask God of what this whole list might be. Noticed I said, inconsistent giver, because to not give is very dangerous and is willfully sinning. The only sin that can't be repented of is blasphemy. Nowhere in the bible does it say right-out that a true child of God can lose their salvation... primarily because the bible doesn't differentiate in that manner of speaking.... there are believers that do the the Will of God (fruits of the spirit) and there are believers who don't. The believer that don't live right and doesn't have fruit may still be a true believer but we're just observing their heart in an instance of time... they can still repent and come into God's Will. The useless believers dominate our churches today... pew warmers who's only fruit is getting up Sunday morning and dragging themselves into a lukewarm church. If you were to look at my life over the span of the past up until today, you would be able to see times where I was rebellious, excessive drinker due to depression, basically a useless believer in a fallen state... etc... and had I died in that state, my salvation would have been questionable (Only God knows). However, Thanks to God, I didn't die in that state and God allowed me to repent... but not without going through the consequences. One time I fell so far from grace that He handed me over to Satan and allowed me to get a glimpse of what hell is like. The absence of His presence is a sick, cold, insane place to be.... a place of fear and trembling. Anyway, my story and testimony is long but I am speaking of all of this from experience and sharing it as such... one who knows. I know deep down in my heart there were times in my life where my salvation was in jeopardy and I thank God He didn't come like a thief and require my soul in those times.

AlexanderJ... it's possible that the Hebrews 6: people, those have departed the faith, can come back to God, but the repentance they confessed when they first believed can not be renewed (Heb 10:26 If go on willing sinning, after coming to the Knowledge of Truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins). That only happens once... "the big one"... that washes away all previously committed sins all the way back to birth, remembered or not by you, ... but I think we're getting to technical... I agree that it's possible to for them to return... I know first hand that it is possible. However, it is not a idea path and you could still die in that state... we don't know when our souls are required of us. I believe it's God who ultimately Judges each person according to His Will and if He pardons someone then it is His Sovereign Justice that does so. However, if He does not, then it is His Sovereign Justice that does so. Either way, I think we all agree why put ourselves in a position where our walk is that uncertain? Why rebel to the point that God's grace is mocked? All things are possible with God... including spitting out those who thought themselves His His children. Why get technical and say "well technically they were never really His children then"... what matters is that there are millions of Christians who believe themselves to be covered under the promise who have the threat of being spit out. All because they thought they understood what "believe" and "faith" means. I think we've covered a lot of details in the last couple of pages that aren't so theology driven. We've shared verses and shared our hearts... I hope there is enough conviction, for those who would read, to at least not get a false since of security in man-made theology. And that that they would open their bibles and read everything... not just the happy feel good verses that their pastor use but all of God's Word.

Last but not least, from what I have learned in scripture there is a difference between "works" under the law and "works of the spirit"... massive difference. One is a self-righteousness (law) and the other is the fruit of the spirit. So did Jesus pay for ALL sins past, present and future? Yes this is God's sacrificial offering to mankind... but it is by faith that you receive this gift and believe. We need to Examine our faith continually because there has to be evidence that Christ's gift is manifested in our lives... putting away the things of the flesh and walking in the spirit... the abandonment of self righteousness and walking under the grace of what He did for us. And finally, we must remain in Him until then end and not grow weary and fall away, falling into the temptation once again to return to our former state. The faith that we have when we come to Jesus is a seed... it's freely given, but when we receive this seed, we must plant it deep in our hearts.. at first a professing/acknowledgement Him in our life, which must be nurtured by having faith in what He did. For this offering to be completed, we must remain in Him unto death. Doesn't mean we'll be perfect... God's grace accounts for bumps in the road... and accounts for our sinful weaknesses. We must continually examine our walk with Him, confessing our sin that we may be forgiven and turn from them so that His joy may be complete in us. In my conviction, unless our faith is evident by walking in the spirit and remaining in Him, the sacrificial offering of past, present and future sin being offered is made void to those who's seed withers away from life's lusts. The offering is void to those who die in their lukewarm faith... However, while you still breath there is time to repent, lest He come like a thief and require your life. I've never heard of God not willing to receive back the sinning believer while we still live. Jesus said, "Your sins be forgiven you, no go and sin no more". God is Sovereign. Blessings, Bro Randy.

The verse says what it says (and pretty clearly, I might add), and what is says is not going to change. I also think that it is rather presumptuous for you to assert my ignorance in regard to the meaning of "faith" and of my knowledge of Scripture. "Faith" does not have a 66 book definition. Faith is defined by Webster's as: Faith, n. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony. You might say "We can lose salvation by ceasing to believe". If we could lose our salvation by ceasing to believe, our position as "Sons of God" would be meaningless, as would our spiritual rebirth into the family of God. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit...Ye must be born again (by the Spirit)". I ask, How is unbirth possible? How, once we have been born of God, can we be unborn back into our old position? Wouldn't this contradict the meaning of the word "Son"? A son, by definition, will always be his father's son. It doesn't matter whether the father disowns the son or whether the son disowns the father - the positional relationship of Father and Son remains unchanged. This position cannot be changed without contradicting the definition of the words "Son" and "Father. God uses the words "Father" and "Son" to show us the irrevocability of our choice. Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Sorry, I wasn't presuming you didn't know what faith is... This is just how I engage in discussion... trying not to leave anything out. For every prophet of old and new, Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works). Using a few of God's chosen, here is a basic road map to what faith really is in it's completeness; Noah - . Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works). Moses - Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works). Jesus - Faith in Father = Trust in Father = Love Father = Obedience to Father = Does the Will of Father (Works). Paul - Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works). James - Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works). Which all = evidence... Now that doesn't make us righteous, no it's Christ's righteousness give us the opportunity to have a relationship with God in the first place. Jas 2:14-26 (14) My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. (15) And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, (16) but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? (17) So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. (18) But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. (19) You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! (20) But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead? (21) Was not Ab?raham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsh?aq his son on the altar? (22) Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? (23) And the Scripture was filled which says, “Abraham believed Elohim, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And he was called, “Elohim’s friend.” (24) You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. (25) In the same way, was not Rah?ab? the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works. After reading the above verses, wouldn't you agree that there millions of self-proclaimed Christians who think they know what faith is but are not really practicing it? James says that the faith, you noted in Ephesians 2:8, is dead without works. The works is the fruit of your faith. Trust is the manifestation of faith which is the manifestation of love which is the manifestation of obedience which is the manifestation of works. How many Christian do you suppose that are lukewarm today? Going to church on Sundays, singing, listening to their lukewarm pastor read from the bible... going home thinking they know what faith is when they don't? To them Jesus is an add-on/accent for their life. A giant genie that when you rub a few favorable verses in the bible you are supposed to get what you want... fulfilled dreams, job promotions, happiness, peace, and plenty of financial blessings. Don't you know the desperation there is right now to teach them to repent? I care too much for people to sit here in this discussion and debate theology...

In a nutshell,... Visualize this; Salvation or being saved is like the following illustration... You were drowning in a sea of your own unrepentant sin... and had no hope because you were not able to deliver yourself out. Jesus walks out on the sea of sin, and pulls you out and places you safely into His Boat. He tells you have been saved from your sin but you must now abstain from sin and walk in righteousness, under His righteousness. You thank Him and tell Him that you will follow His ways so that you may not fall back into the sea of your own unrepentant sin again, like a dog returning to his own vomit. He tells you that no-one can snatch you from His protection now... and that you must live out this salvation in faith never returning to your former state of unrepentant sin. You are now saved... but the choice; not return to the former state, is ongoing until the end. Because if you do return, and many have and will, you can not be rescued again as a free gift. The rescue is only offered once... is there still hope for those who return to their former state of unrepentant sin? I believe there is hope as long as you breath... but you will be in danger of damnation at that point. The falling away doesn't happen in one big leap... it isn't something that you decide over night... the whole time you are trying to return to your former state, through unrepentant sin, Jesus has a hold of you with a strong grip... He is warning you to stop... He is warning us about what will happen if we don't repent and come back aboard... but if you pull long and hard enough, He will let you go and you will end up falling away/drowning again... and if you die in that former state, then you put His death to shame and it would have been better for you to not to have been saved in the first place. But some of you say it is impossible for this believer to return to His former state because when Jesus rescues you, He does so permanently... and it is permanent if you don't return to your former state of unrepentant sin, but when you are saved, do you lose free will? Does our freedom of will suddenly get taken away from us? Yes we are enslaved to His Will but cannot a slave choice death over slavery? Satan held a very high place in heaven... he had eternal security but he "abused" his privileges... he abused God's love and was thrown out. God didn't force him to change... He didn't say Satan you are a slave to me... Meditate on these verses in Ezekiel; Eze 33:13 "When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. Eze 33:14 "But when I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, Eze 33:15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Eze 33:16 "None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live. Eze 33:17 "Yet your fellow citizens say, 'The way of the Lord is not right,' when it is their own way that is not right. Eze 33:18 "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. Have reverence for God, Bro Randy.

AlexanderJ, review my previous comments. There are verses that define what falling away is, which is the same as "departing the faith" aka Apostasy All these verses that I reference give strong indications that the believers were living in sin, and fell away... some fell out of the Truth and could not be renewed again, whiles others were lukewarm and were rebuked and warned to repent or be spit out of God's mouth... Hebrews 6:- gives a strong indication that believers are able "turn from the truth"... why do you think they turned? Because they were never really saved? No... to say that is a cop out. They turned away because they committed adultery with God under the new covenant by following after their own lusts (sins). The bible even speaks of a "sin leading death" for a believer... 1Jn 5:16-19 NASB If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. (17) All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. (18) We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (19) We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. Apostasy; refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. The only way the once saved, always saved will work is if we elaborate a bit more... "once saved, always saved for those who remain in Christ."... again, the same goes for the "Blood at the cross forgives for past, present and future sins for those who remain in Christ by loving Him, obeying His commandments, and enduring until the end." Look up Tim Conway on Youtube under "Can I lose My Faith"... In 2 Co 13:5 NASB "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?", we are to test our faith. And is it possible to fail the test???? Now as far as Ephesians 2:8... first, there is no way to extract one verse from the bible and have a full understanding of it. All of them compliment one another and MUST be understood as the whole Word of God. Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved through faith... well what is faith? A one time feeling you get? A one time acknowledgement? Faith is a loaded word... the word, just that single word, has a 66 book definition. Second, you MUST have a full understanding of what faith means... Search on Youtube Dave Hunt "The Seduction of Christianity Part 1- faith" as he gives the best description of what faith means than any I have ever heard. It's a little dated.. but it's an oldie but goody. 1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 1Ti 4:15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 1Ti 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. Is Paul lying to them? How can we "ensure" our salvation? By walking in good works in Christ, be absorbed in the spiritual gifts given to you and by meditating on scriptures. That's what happens when we really have Christ in us. It's evident. Fear God, because we don't know it all... because apostates rarely refer themselves to being that... and I would NEVER bank off an OSAS theology, ever. Even if the verses provided in my comments don't out right say that apostates will lose their salvation, there are strong indications that God will judge them with unfavorable results. Look at what happened to Ananias and Sapphira... they were struck down for one lie. Did they lose their salvation? I don't know... I don't want to think they did... for one lie.

Agreed! Because it's not sinning that can cause us to fall away, it's continuous unrepentant sin... it's an active and deliberate rejection of His commandments, after knowing Him, based from our own worldly lusts... like the Lukewarm church in Revelation. It isn't easy to fall away but if you have huge gaping holes in your armor, the enemy will be relentless. He can cause you to go into depression... and not care. Not caring about anything will ultimately lead to delusions and perversions of Truth. Satan can and will entice those who are rebelling. However, God disciplines those He loves. He has more patience than we really know... it isn't an overnight thing... but it is certainly a possibility to fail and be spit out. This is why we must understand God's love but also have complete reverence for Him as well.

Amen!

True but I am not sure how you are applying this... The perfect Lamb was slain for the sins of the world and those who believe, repent and are saved receive this new covenant. It's an offering...Those who don't believe this will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The point of hammering this topic out is important because there may be those reading this thread who are believers and believe they are saved under false teachings. I am not here to vainly debate with the Christians but rather to use scripture to expose lies. It is our job as mature Christians to refute and correct any false doctrine. I am not here to win a debate but in meekness and fear to share what God's Holy Spirit has lead me to. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 1 Peter3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. I have been addressing this thread on the pretense that the OP is asking if Jesus paid for all sins past, present and future covering unrepentant and repentant sin, alike. There are Christians that believe that their unrepentant sin, no matter how many, or how often, is automatically paid for as though turning from sin is optional once the Blood has been applied. As though sin no longer exists. Thus they believe they aren't in danger of judgement for practicing sin. This is a false doctrine and needs to be discussed and debated. Why? because it's a lie. Sin is still vile and disgusting to God now, as it was any time before. It still quenches the Holy Spirit and can still cut off our relationship with God... And according to scripture, sinning after receiving God's gift in Christ, is highly discouraged and if one does sin, then they must repent or be in danger of the weed growing and strangling out the fruit. No fruit = dead tree, worthless and will be burned. I don't want to get into the debate of who is really saved to begin with and who really isn't. That is fruitless... because everyone has been given the option of believing. We must assume that everyone has either been saved or can be saved. Let us look at and expose this false doctrine for what it is. If Jesus paid for our present and future sins without the need to turn from them, after being baptized and coming under the new covenant... then consider the following illustration; Commandment; Eph 4:29-31 ‘Let no unwholesome word proceed out of your mouth, but only such a word that is good for edification according to the need at the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. False teaching; Technically optional. But if you do grieve the Holy Spirit, and don't repent, then don't worry about it, it's covered by Jesus's once and for all sacrifice. Commandment: Eph 4:32 ‘Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.’ False teaching: Technically optional. But if you do hate others and don't forgive them, and don't repent, then don't worry about it, it's covered by Jesus's once and for all sacrifice. Commandment: Matt 7:12 'So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.' False teaching: Technically optional. But if you are a selfish believer, or hoarding your income and not giving a red cent for His ministries, and don't repent, then don't worry about it, it's covered by Jesus's once and for all sacrifice. Commandment: Matt 5:14 'You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. " In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.' False teaching: Technically optional. But if you are a closet believer and act worldly in front of people, and don't repent, then don't worry about it, it's covered by Jesus's once and for all sacrifice. This false doctrine that teaches that Jesus paid for all of their sins, repentant and unrepentant alike, present and future, renders ALL His commandments optional for the sins are bought and paid for. Some have said that these people who eventually fall away from sinning, after coming to the Knowledge of Truth, were never really saved to begin with and they were always lost. However, the scriptures teach us the contrary to this incorrect teaching. Why would the Son of God waste His time rebuking those who were never really saved to begin with? People want to isolate various verses and build theology from it, without incorporating the whole of scripture. Clearly Jesus continues to reach out to those are potential believers, lukewarm believers, who may or may not be saved in the end. Why? Rev 3:2-4 NASB 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. (3) 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. (4) 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. and Rev 3:14-22 NASB "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: (15) 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. (16) 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. (17) 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, (18) I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. (19) 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. (20) 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (21) 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (22) 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" Wow, Jesus is telling the lukewarm believers that they are in danger of damnation because they aren't cold or hot. That means they, even those who call themselves believers, but are useless to God, are currently in a state of threat of damnation. But He loves them and wants to discipline them so that they might repent... repent from what? If the blood has covered them, they why would they be spit out? It is because their sin has rendered them useless... even after coming to the Knowledge of Truth. But yet, Jesus still knocks at the door... and wants to forgive them if and when they repent. These are so called believers who still have the potential to be saved. There are some that believe that this church can be applied to a lot of American churches! In conclusion I quote Matthew Henry's Commentary on Rev 3:14-22. I have said all that I can say on this matter, and it is up to those who genuinely seek the Truth of this matter to pray and ask God for guidance. Revelation 3:14-22 "We now come to the last and worst of all the seven Asian churches, the reverse of the church of Philadelphia; for, as there was nothing reproved in that, here is nothing commended in this, and yet this was one of the seven golden candlesticks, for a corrupt church may still be a church. Here we have, as before, I. The inscription, to whom, and from whom. 1. To whom: To the angel of the church of Laodicea. This was a once famous city near the river Lycus, had a wall of vast compass, and three marble theatres, and, like Rome, was built on seven hills. It seems, the apostle Paul was very instrumental in planting the gospel in this city, from which he wrote a letter, as he mentions in the epistle to the Colossians, the last chapter, in which he sends salutations to them, Laodicea not being above twenty miles distant from Colosse. In this city was held a council in the fourth century, but it has been long since demolished, and lies in its ruins to this day, an awful monument of the wrath of the Lamb. 2. From whom this message was sent. Here our Lord Jesus styles himself the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God. (1.) The Amen, one that is steady and unchangeable in all his purposes and promises, which are all yea, and all amen. (2.) The faithful and true witness, whose testimony of God to men ought to be received and fully believed, and whose testimony of men to God will be fully believed and regarded, and will be a swift but true witness against all indifferent lukewarm professors. (3.) The beginning of the creation of God, either of the first creation, and so he is the beginning, that is, the first cause, the Creator, and the Governor of it; or of the second creation, the church; and so he is the head of that body, the first-born from the dead, as it is in Rev_1:5, whence these titles are taken. Christ, having raised up himself by his own divine power, as the head of a new world, raises up dead souls to be a living temple and church to himself. II. The subject-matter, in which observe, 1. The heavy charge drawn up against this church, ministers and people, by one who knew them better than they knew themselves: Thou art neither cold nor hot, but worse than either; I would thou wert cold or hot, Rev_3:15. Lukewarmness or indifference in religion is the worst temper in the world. If religion is a real thing, it is the most excellent thing, and therefore we should be in good earnest in it; if it is not a real thing, it is the vilest imposture, and we should be earnest against it. If religion is worth any thing, it is worth every thing; an indifference here is inexcusable: Why halt you between two opinions? If God be God, follow him; if Baal (be God), follow him. Here is no room for neutrality. An open enemy shall have a fairer quarter than a perfidious neuter; and there is more hope of a heathen than of such. Christ expects that men should declare themselves in earnest either for him or against him. 2. A severe punishment threatened: I will spue thee out of my mouth. As lukewarm water turns the stomach, and provokes to a vomit, lukewarm professors turn the heart of Christ against them. He is sick of them, and cannot long bear them. They may call their lukewarmness charity, meekness, moderation, and a largeness of soul; it is nauseous to Christ, and makes those so that allow themselves in it. They shall be rejected, and finally rejected; for far be it from the holy Jesus to return to that which has been thus rejected. 3. We have one cause of this indifference and inconsistency in religion assigned, and that is self-conceitedness or self-delusion. They thought they were very well already, and therefore they were very indifferent whether they grew better or no: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, etc., Rev_3:17. Here observe, What a difference there was between the thoughts they had of themselves and the thoughts that Christ had of them. (1.) The high thoughts they had of themselves: Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, rich, and growing richer, and increased to such a degree as to be above all want or possibility of wanting. Perhaps they were well provided for as to their bodies, and this made them overlook the necessities of their souls. Or they thought themselves well furnished in their souls: they had learning, and they took it for religion; they had gifts, and they took them for grace; they had wit, and they took it for true wisdom; they had ordinances, and they took up with them instead of the God of ordinances. How careful should we be not to put the cheat upon our own souls! Doubtless there are many in hell that once thought themselves to be in the way to heaven. Let us daily beg of God that we may not be left to flatter and deceive ourselves in the concerns of our souls. (2.) The mean thoughts that Christ had of them; and he was not mistaken. He knew, though they knew not, that they were wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. Their state was wretched in itself, and such as called for pity and compassion from others: though they were proud of themselves, they were pitied by all who knew their case. For, [1.] They were poor, really poor, when they said and thought they were rich; they had no provision for their souls to live upon; their souls were starving in the midst of their abundance; they were vastly in debt to the justice of God, and had nothing to pay off the least part of the debt. [2.] They were blind; they could not see their state, nor their way, nor their danger; they could not see into themselves; they could not look before them; they were blind, and yet they thought they saw; the very light that was in them was darkness, and then how great must that darkness be! They could not see Christ, though evidently set forth, and crucified, before their eyes. They could not see God by faith, though always present in them. They could not see death, though it was just before them. They could not look into eternity, though they stood upon the very brink of it continually. [3.] They were naked, without clothing and without house and harbour for their souls. They were without clothing, had neither the garment of justification nor that of sanctification. Their nakedness both of guilt and pollution had no covering. They lay always exposed to sin and shame. Their righteousnesses were but filthy rags; they were rags, and would not cover them, filthy rags, and would defile them. And they were naked, without house or harbour, for they were without God, and he has been the dwelling-place of his people in all ages; in him alone the soul of man can find rest, and safety, and all suitable accommodations. The riches of the body will not enrich the soul; the sight of the body will not enlighten the soul; the most convenient house for the body will not afford rest nor safety to the soul. The soul is a different thing from the body, and must have accommodation suitable to its nature, or else in the midst of bodily prosperity it will be wretched and miserable. 4. We have good counsel given by Christ to this sinful people, and that is that they drop their vain and false opinion they had of themselves, and endeavour to be that really which they would seem to be: I counsel thee to buy of me, etc., Rev_3:18. Observe, (1.) Our Lord Jesus Christ continues to give good counsel to those who have cast his counsels behind their backs. (2.) The condition of sinners in never desperate, while they enjoy the gracious calls and counsels of Christ. (3.) Our blessed Lord, the counsellor, always gives the best advice, and that which is most suitable to the sinner's case; as here, [1.] These people were poor; Christ counsels them to buy of him gold tried in the fire, that they might be rich. He lets them know where they might have true riches and how they might have them. First, Where they might have them - from himself; he sends them not to the streams of Pactolus, nor to the mines of Potosi, but invites them to himself, the pearl of price. Secondly, And how must they have this true gold from him? They must buy it. This seems to be unsaying all again. How can those that are poor buy gold? Just as they may buy of Christ wine and milk, that is, without money and without price, Isa_55:1. Something indeed must be parted with, but it is nothing of a valuable consideration, it is only to make room for receiving true riches. “Part with sin and self-sufficiency, and come to Christ with a sense of your poverty and emptiness, that you may be filled with his hidden treasure.” [2.] These people were naked; Christ tells them where they might have clothing, and such as would cover the shame of their nakedness. This they must receive from Christ; and they must only put off their filthy rags that they might put on the white raiment which he had purchased and provided for them - his own imputed righteousness for justification and the garments of holiness and sanctification. [3.] They were blind; and he counsels them to buy of him eye-salve, that they might see, to give up their own wisdom and reason, which are but blindness in the things of God, and resign themselves to his word and Spirit, and their eyes shall be opened to see their way and their end, their duty and their true interest; a new and glorious scene would then open itself to their souls; a new world furnished with the most beautiful and excellent objects, and this light would be marvellous to those who were but just now delivered from the powers of darkness. This is the wise and good counsel Christ gives to careless souls; and, if they follow it, he will judge himself bound in honour to make it effectual. 5. Here is added great and gracious encouragement to this sinful people to take the admonition and advice well that Christ had given them, Rev_3:19, Rev_3:20. He tells them, (1.) It was given them in true and tender affection: “Whom I love, I rebuke and chasten. You may think I have given you hard words and severe reproofs; it is all out of love to your souls. I would not have thus openly rebuked and corrected your sinful lukewarmness and vain confidence, if I had not been a lover of your souls; had I hated you, I would have let you alone, to go on in sin till it had been your ruin.” Sinners ought to take the rebukes of God's word and rod as tokens of his good-will to their souls, and should accordingly repent in good earnest, and turn to him that smites them; better are the frowns and wounds of a friend than the flattering smiles of an enemy. (2.) If they would comply with his admonitions, he was ready to make them good to their souls: Behold, I stand at the door and knock, etc., Rev_3:20. Here observe, [1.] Christ is graciously pleased by his word and Spirit to come to the door of the heart of sinners; he draws near to them in a way of mercy, ready to make them a kind visit. [2.] He finds this door shut against him; the heart of man is by nature shut up against Christ by ignorance, unbelief, sinful prejudices. [3.] When he finds the heart shut, he does not immediately withdraw, but he waits to be gracious, even till his head be filled with the dew. [4.] He uses all proper means to awaken sinners, and to cause them to open to him: he calls by his word, he knocks by the impulses of his Spirit upon their conscience. [5.] Those who open to him shall enjoy his presence, to their great comfort and advantage. He will sup with them; he will accept of what is good in them; he will eat his pleasant fruit; and he will bring the best part of the entertainment with him. If what he finds would make but a poor feast, what he brings will make up the deficiency: he will give fresh supplies of graces and comforts, and thereby stir up fresh actings of faith, and love, and delight; and in all this Christ and his repenting people will enjoy pleasant communion with each other. Alas! what do careless obstinate sinners lose by refusing to open the door of the heart to Christ!" III. We now come to the conclusion of this epistle; and here we have as before, 1. The promise made to the overcoming believer. It is here implied, (1.) That though this church seemed to be wholly overrun and overcome with lukewarmness and self-confidence, yet it was possible that by the reproofs and counsels of Christ they might be inspired with fresh zeal and vigour, and might come off conquerors in their spiritual warfare. (2.) That, if they did so, all former faults should be forgiven, and they should have a great reward. And what is that reward? They shall sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and have sat down with my Father on his throne, Rev_3:21. Here it is intimated, [1.] That Christ himself had met with his temptations and conflicts. [2.] That he overcame them all, and was more than a conqueror. [3.] That, as the reward of his conflict and victory, he has sat down with God the Father on his throne, possessed of that glory which he had with the Father from eternity, but which he was pleased very much to conceal on earth, leaving it as it were in the hands of the Father, as a pledge that he would fulfil the work of a Saviour before he reassumed that manifestative glory; and, having done so, then pignus reposcere - he demands the pledge, to appear in his divine glory equal to the Father. [4.] That those who are conformed to Christ in his trials and victories shall be conformed to him in his glory; they shall sit down with him on his throne, on his throne of judgment at the end of the world, on his throne of glory to all eternity, shining in his beams by virtue of their union with him and relation to him, as the mystical body of which he is the head. 2. All is closed up with the general demand of attention (Rev_3:22), putting all to whom these epistles shall come in mind that what is contained in them is not of private interpretation, not intended for the instruction, reproof, and correction of those particular churches only, but of all the churches of Christ in all ages and parts of the world: and as there will be a resemblance in all succeeding churches to these, both in their graces and sins, so they may expect that God will deal with them as he dealt with these, which are patterns to all ages what faithful, and fruitful churches may expect to receive from God, and what those who are unfaithful may expect to suffer from his hand; yea, that God's dealings with his churches may afford useful instruction to the rest of the world, to put them upon considering, If judgment begin at the house of God, what shall the end of those be that do not obey the gospel of Christ? 1Pe_4:17. Thus end the messages of Christ to the Asian churches, the epistolary part of this book. We now come to the prophetical part.

I agree.. i hear Christians profess that "we all sin daily, and thank God for the Blood".... and that isn't biblical. What it is--is a defeated Christian with no evident Power to overcome, or no real love as you said. To say that we sin daily is to say that we practice sin... 1Jn 3:9-10 NASB No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (10) By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. We don't have to nor should we sin daily... that would be practicing it. I stumble into temptation a few times a month... maybe up to 4 to 5 roughly, I don't keep track of the number. But these aren't the practice of sin... such as pornography, alcoholism, lying, cheating, slandering, sensuality, idolatry, strife, jealousy, rivalries, dissensions, envy, orgies, and so on... etc etc. I rarely lie, I don't practice it, but it does still happen from time to time, and I always repent of it. The other one is my anger... that is one that I have the most problem with but even it is no longer practiced but rather a weakness from time to time. I pray constantly on it and meditate on the repenting of it. I am not sinless, but I don't sin daily either. It's because of my love for Christ that I strive to be sinless. I am not saying that Christians who do sin daily are hell bound, especially if they repent daily,... but they are living in a powerless state in that they aren't over-comers. If they are a true Christian, then they need to know that God hasn't called them to sin daily and He provided the power to overcome it at the cross. Now if they practice sin, which I understand as the aforementioned practices, as well as others, then I do believe they are in danger of apostasy. An example would be someone who claims to be saved but sells used cars, and deliberately and habitually lies to people to sell one... or someone who claims to be saved but still engages in habitual immoral sexual acts; fornications, adultery, etc etc. This is the lie of Satan... that they have believed . Believe it or not, I believe there is a major difference here in sin. One sin is practiced (can you think of a sin that is practiced?) and the other is an occasional non-practiced sin/temptation that is repented of immediately and whole-heartedly prays against.

Well God can answer it absolutely though. I've been a Christian for 35 years... I've learned that for many things is best to take certain questions to God. If you pray and ask God, He can answer you too... or anyone for that matter. It's okay to ask that isn't it?

To each their own but ones personal opinions do not overrule scripture for many believers. I agree with Paul in 1 Tim 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Phil 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. I can read these verses as written and believe they are true without exception to those trusting in Christ, others cannot believe them as written because their assurance is not in trusting the word of God but their believing that those who fall away were ever saved in the first place. God forgives all sins of the believer and seals them with His Spirit unto the day of redemption, I believe as He says, He looks at the heart and knows the hearts of all men. We must agree to disagree. As I said, i agree with that for those who remain in Him. Sure, I agree to disagree. Thanks for discussion.

Perhaps you might, but I already prayed and asked God, and He answered. He loves our pets greater than we do... Because His love is superior. He formed their little personalities... gave them the ability to give and receive affection, though limited. He knows them each individually... He has a covenant with them.

I agree with Albert Barnes notes on Hebrew 6:4 Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible - It is needless to say that the passage here Heb_6:4-6, has given occasion to much controversy, and that the opinions of commentators and of the Christian world are yet greatly divided in regard to its meaning. On the one hand, it is held that the passage is not intended to describe those who are true Christians, but only those who have been awakened and enlightened, and who then fall back; and on the other it is maintained that it refers to those who are true Christians, and who then apostatize. The contending parties have been Calvinists and Arminians; each party, in general, interpreting it according to the views which are held on the question about falling from grace. I shall endeavor, as well as I may be able, to state the true meaning of the passage by an examination of the words and phrases in detail, observing here, in general, that it seems to me that it refers to true Christians; that the object is to keep them from apostasy, and that it teaches that if they should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations. (1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians. (2) The connection demands such an interpretation. The apostle was addressing Christians. He was endeavoring to keep them from apostasy. The object was not to keep those who were awakened and enlightened from apostasy, but it was to preserve those who were already in the Church of Christ, from going back to perdition. The kind of exhortation appropriate to those who were awakened and convicted, but who were not truly converted, would be “to become converted;” not to warn them of the danger of “falling away.” Besides, the apostle would not have said of such persons that they could not be converted and saved. But of sincere Christians it might be said with the utmost propriety, that they could not be renewed again and be saved if they should fall away - because they rejected the only plan of salvation after they had tried it, and renounced the only scheme of redemption after they had tasted its benefits. If that plan could not save them, what could? If they neglected that, by what other means could they be brought to God? (3) This interpretation accords, as I suppose, with the exact meaning of the phrases which the apostle uses. An examination of those phrases will show that he refers to those who are sincere believers. The phrase “it is impossible” obviously and properly denotes absolute impossibility. It has been contended, by Storr and others, that it denotes only great difficulty. But the meaning which would at first strike all readers would be that “the thing could not be done;” that it was not merely very difficult, but absolutely impracticable. The word - a̓δύνaτον adunaton - occurs only in the New Testament in the following places, in all which it denotes that the thing could not be done; Mat_19:26; Mar_10:27, “With men this is impossible;” that is, men could not save one who was rich, implying that the thing was wholly beyond human power. Luk_18:27, “the things which are impossible with men are possible with God” - referring to the same case; Act_14:8, “A man of Lystra, impotent in his feet;” that is, who was wholly “unable” to walk; Rom_8:3, “For what the law could not do;” what was absolutely “impossible” for the Law to accomplish; that is, to save people; Heb_6:18, “In which it was impossible for God to lie;” Heb_10:4, “It is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sin;” and Heb_11:6, “Without faith it is impossible to please God;” in all of these instances denoting absolute impossibility. These passages show that it is not merely a great difficulty to which the apostle refers, but that he meant to say that the thing was wholly impracticable; that it could not be done. And if this be the meaning, then it proves that if those referred to should fall away, they could never be renewed. Their case was hopeless, and they must perish: that is, if a true Christian should apostatize, or fall from grace, “he never could be renewed again,” and could not be saved. Paul did not teach that he might fall away and be renewed again as often as he pleased. He had other views of the grace of God than this; and he meant to teach, that if a man should once cast off true religion, his case was hopeless, and he must perish; and by this solemn consideration - the only one that would be effectual in such a case - he meant to guard them against the danger of apostasy. For those who were once enlightened - The phrase “to be enlightened” is one that is often used in the Scriptures, and may be applied either to one whose understanding has been enlightened to discern his duty, though he is not converted (compare the note on Joh_1:9); or more commonly to one who is truly converted; see the note on Eph_1:18. It does not of necessity refer to true Christians, though it cannot be denied that it more obviously suggests the idea that the heart is truly changed, and that it is more commonly used in that sense; compare Psa_19:8. Light, in the Scriptures, is the emblem of knowledge, holiness, and happiness, and there is no impropriety here in understanding it in accordance with the more decisive phrases which follow, as referring to true Christians. And have tasted - To “taste” of a thing means, according to the usage in the Scriptures, to “experience,” or to “understand” it. The expression is derived from the fact that the “taste” is one of the means by which we ascertain the nature or quality of an object; compare Mat_16:28; Joh_8:51; Heb_2:9. The proper idea here is, that they had “experienced” the heavenly gift, or had learned its nature. The heavenly gift - The gift from heaven, or which pertains to heaven; compare the note on Joh_4:10. The expression properly means some favor or gift which has descended from heaven, and may refer to any of the benefits which God has conferred on man in the work of redemption. It might include the plan of salvation; the forgiveness of sins; the enlightening, renewing, and sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit, or any one of the graces which that Spirit imparts. The use of the article, however - “the heavenly gift,” limits it to something special, as being conferred directly from heaven, and the connection would seem to demand that we understand it of some “special” favor which could be conferred only on the children of God. It is an expression which “may” be applied to sincere Christians; it is at least doubtful whether it can with propriety be applied to any other. And were made partakers of the Holy Ghost - Partakers of the influences of the Holy Spirit - for it is only in this sense that we can partake of the Holy Spirit. We “partake” of food when we share it with others; we “partake” of pleasure when we enjoy it with others; we “partake” of spoils in war when they are divided between us and others. So we partake of the influences of the Holy Spirit when we share these influences conferred on his people. This is not language which can properly be applied to anyone but a true Christian; and though it is true that an unpardoned sinner may be enlightened and awakened by the Holy Spirit, yet the language used here is not such as would be likely to be employed to describe his state. It is too clearly expressive of those influences which renew and sanctify the soul. It is as elevated language as can be used to describe the joy of the Christian, and is undoubtedly used in that sense here. If it is not, it would be difficult to find any language which would properly express the condition of a renewed heart. Grotius, Bloomfield, and some others, understood this of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. But this is not necessary, and does not accord well with the general description here, which evidently pertains to the mass of those whom the apostle addressed."

Hu?? Sorry, tired and getting over a bad cold. I'll try to elaborate. What I am saying is that the common response to "will pets be in heaven with us" by most people is that the scripture doesn't support it either way. However, it's interesting that when Christians pray to God and ask for direction in their life, often times they will get an answer from God... a specific answer as to what God is telling them to do. So is it possible to pray and ask God a question such as "will my pet(s) be with me in heaven" and receive an answer from Him? Just because something isn't in the bible doesn't mean God isn't willing to answer if we ask. That's what I mean by having a living relationship with Him through Christ. It doesn't stop nor is it limited to that which is only contained in scripture. Granted, It can not contradict scripture either. One might say, well it's dangerous to believe in something that's not in the bible... hmm, really? Have you ever prayed and asked God to reveal something to you that He answered? Was His answer in the bible? Sometimes, but somtimes you won't find it in the bible... For instance someone might say "I prayed to God and asked if He wanted me to go Bible College, and He revealed to me that He did want me to go" would we doubt what God as revealed to them? Afterall, it doesn't saying anything about bible college in the bible. Why wouldn't it be possible to ask God such matters about our Pets and receive an answer?

Anyway, I am just pointing out, that from the provided scriptures we know that it is possible to fall away from the Truth, once coming to the Knowledge of it... and it is also possible to not be forgiven if one doesn't repent. Present and future sins forgiveness are conditional.

Right but I believe that if we have a living relationship with God, He can reveal Truths to us that may not be covered in the bible... His Word is alive... His Holy Spirit is alive... and in us. Because I have real relationship with God, what He can teach us is not limited to something you have to find in the bible. Look at Paul, he didn't have a script to read from... He allowed himself to be used by the Holy Spirit... I have prayed a long time for God to reveal this mystery to me... I believe He has.

He paid for them all with His death and resurrection, but they are not applied to the sin until true repentance is sought and applied. Those who believe in Universalism believe that everyone will be forgiven despite what they seek or who they follow. This is false teaching and should be avoided at all cost. Actually, I know Christians who believe that once we become a believer, get baptized, and acknowledge what Christ did for us then unrepentant sin and repentant sin are irrelevant. It's covered... they don't believe everyone is saved just those who believe. I am in no position to say whether or not they are on their way to hell, but I do believe they have been deceived. Yes, that is another false doctrine. Those who believe this also believe they can live the life to their fullest, sin as much as their flesh desires, and still remain saved. Nobody knows the heart of another, but we can see who they belong to by their fruit. Amen OneLight... I've come to the conclusion that the reason that they have been deceived is because some point along their walk, they decided that they loved the things of world... whether it's the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes or the pride of life.... so they decided they wanted the best of both worlds... and then form scripture around this sin.

He paid for them all with His death and resurrection, but they are not applied to the sin until true repentance is sought and applied. Those who believe in Universalism believe that everyone will be forgiven despite what they seek or who they follow. This is false teaching and should be avoided at all cost. Actually, I know Christians who believe that once we become a believer, get baptized, and acknowledge what Christ did for us then unrepentant sin and repentant sin are irrelevant. It's covered... they don't believe everyone is saved just those who believe. I am in no position to say whether or not they are on their way to hell, but I do believe they have been deceived. Heb 10:14-18 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. All sins of the believer are forgiven in the one sacrifice of Christ and there is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. What He started He will finish and He is the author and finisher of our faith(Heb 12:2) He makes the sinner into a saints(one set apart and make holy in Himself) and puts into their hearts to do His will, Phil 2:13 it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. He has determined to transform all that receive Christ that He will make them like His dear Son and in His sight all saints are glorified in Christ before the foundation of the world(Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Yeah this is what I don't want to get into... a battle of verses, as though the verse you post trump the ones I post. However, for the sake of making a point; Now I will address Hebrews 10:17... are you trying to tell me that this verse, which is really talking about having our sins wiped clean at the cross, is trumping the following verses? Heb 6:4-8 NASB For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (7) For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; (8) but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (Heb 10:26 NASB) For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:27 NASB) but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. (Heb 10:38 NASB) BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. Luk 12:47-48 NASB "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, (48) but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. Gal 5:19-21 NASB Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, (20) idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, (21) envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1Th 4:7-8 NASB For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. (8) So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. 1Pe 1:14-15 NASB As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, (15) but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 2Pe 2:20-22 NASB For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. (22) It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." On and on, I can find many verses that would appear to contradict the way you're interpreting the verse you posted... however, I think we both know that these verses don't contradict one another, but should compliment one another.. to get the whole meaning.

Will our beloved pets be with us in heaven? Randy Alcorn, who wrote a book called “Heaven” believes that animals will be present in Heaven. C. S. Lewis, and hundreds of others; the list of pastors, theologians, and true Christians are numerous. Many believe this to be true. Youtube Randy Alcorn about Pets being with us. What does the bible say about animals? Does God care less about animals as some people do? Or is God's heart more like those who love and care about animals? Why did God create animals in the first place? Why not just skip that part, and create all edible plants that would be suffice for our diet? Were animals in the garden meant to die or were they meant to be eaten? Or even meant to suffer? NO! They were created, like us, to be eternal... Because of the fall of man, ALL creation was caused to suffer... mankind and animals alike! This is not a modern day question; Solomon pondered and said in Ecclesiastes 3:18-21: “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ( or literally “spirit“); humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?” But does God care about animals? Genesis 9:9-10 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth.” Genesis 9:16; “Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.” Why would God include animals in His covenant? WOW, God loves His created ANIMALS! So much that He made the same covenant with them as He did man. Isn't it safe to say that God loves animals? Now granted, it is VERY clear that mankind's value is much greater than other creations but that doesn't mean that animals don't have any value at all... because they do have an earthly and heavenly value; (Mat 10:29 NASB) "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. And (Mat 10:31 NASB) "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows." He didn't say "You have value and they do not" but rather He said that we are more valuable than animals... they have value both on earth and in heaven, as written in; Hosea 2:18 “In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety.” ALL… And this covenant was made... it has been established. Animals will not fear death because they will be imperishable, as they were in the beginning. And again, Isaiah 11:6-9 reads, “And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.” Obviously this isn’t a picture of this old earth! Impossible! This is a description of a new earth and new HEAVEN! Isn’t that a WONDEFUL image? It will be GLORIOUS! “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away,…”(Rev 21:1 NASB) God didn't create animals as meat, originally, for mankind nor as just some chunk of expendable flesh... Unfortunately, after the fall of man, they were transitioned into an earthly value… but He does have a heavenly value in them as well... and He knows every one of them individually as their Creator. He originally designed/created them to be imperishable, eternal. And in the end, they will be that again! 1Co 15:35-42 (NASB) But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; WOW again, this sounds like all qualifying creation will be raised in an imperishable body. God's children, through Christ... but animals can't obtain eternal life through Christ, because they don’t have the soul of man, but it does obtain eternal life through God's covenant, as mention and written in Hosea 2 (See above scripture). All creatures great and small, past and future, damned and saved, will say in; Rev 5:13 (NASB) And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." ALL created things in heaven and on earth… No created thing left out, ALL… past, present and future… ALL. So the question remains, does this include our beloved pets? I believe that our beloved pets are included in "every created thing which is in heaven and on earth, and all things in them". Why would every created thing, God's people, the unsaved, heavily beings, and animals alike, be included but not our beloved pets? Why would they be specifically excluded? Absurd! Unfortunately, although the unsaved will acknowledge and say these things, they will not enjoy the reward of eternal life with God. But because of God’s covenant with His created creatures, they will not perish or suffer after this Glorious acknowledgment of Christ’s Sovereignty, but rather be possibly put on the new earth. I mean think about it, will these created things that had died and turn to dust be raised up temporarily to acknowledge Christ Sovereignty, and then return to dust once again? That’s not what I read and believe. I have a little notebook that I have kept for over 10 years... and in it I write down all animals that I have either owned, or have known, in it. Each one according to it's name. This notebook, although written on earth, is part of my treasures that I store in heaven. Now of course I have more valuable treasures, family, brothers and sisters in Christ value, that I store in Heaven, but God willing, I will hold this notebook in my hands upon reaching the pearly gates, and declare the names written in it as part of my valued treasures. And I will once again be able to enjoy their love and companionship. This is what I believe and hold to, unwavering. An Illustration for those who still don’t get it; Imagine if were a sculptor… and you loved to form and create things. One day you created a creature of some sort, it had four legs, eyes and a mouth. Once finished with it, you sat back and stared at it… and you saw that it was well done… and you began thinking of a little unique personality for it, an organic living program. Oh… you say, it would eat berries, run in the field, it will adapt to its environment, socialize with your other creations, learning to its limited ability. It won’t know right from wrong, and it won’t know corruption. It will however be lovable and, in its simplistic way, will be capable of giving affection. After thinking a while, you wanted it to be eternal like you… and after imagining every aspect of this art piece, you raise your hand to your mouth and you breathe into its mouth and behold what was not, is now alive. It is the product of your creation and you are happy with it. Now I don’t expect anyone to fully understand or relate to this… because you have never experienced this. You don’t have the ability to create living creatures. You don’t have the ability breathe life into anything… but if you were able to, could you imagine the bond between you and that creation?