wonby1

I think most of us know the story of Constantine. He reportedly saw a vision of a cross and told others that it was a sign to conquer in the name of Christ. However, most probably don't know that Constantine continued to worship pagan gods afterwards, and had a dark history of murdering members of his own family. Granted, it was reported he converted to Christianity on his death bed. My main concern is, Constantine and his conquests led directly to the forming of the Catholic Church. And like Constantine, the Catholic church was a worldly political entity with its own sovereign land and own personal army. The Pope even had such power as to control kings in Europe at one time. So what did it get us? It got us Jewish ghettos and persecution, Inquisitions, Crusades, about every legitimate complaint about the church people can muster, and rightly so. Christ explicitly made it clear that his kingdom was not of this world, nor could be. That is the issue. And I think Constantine did great harm in misrepresenting Jesus and his teachings in a false light. Before Constantine, Christians met in homes privately and were thrown to the lions as their faith spread like wild fire. I suppose Constantine saw this and wanted a piece for himself for worldly power and got it.

You get asked to vote on state taxes? I suppose it's because you always voted for them, but now that you voted against them they will probably never give you the opportunity again. Usually the only taxes I get to vote on are things like school levies.

Sorry, but I don't self identify as a law breaker

I'm reminded of the scripture of Jesus being asked if the Hebrew people should pay their taxes to the Roman government. He asked to see a coin and asked whose picture was on it. They replied Caesar. Jesus then said to render to Caesar what is Caesars and render to God what is Gods. Then I got to thinking. Whose picture is on the one dollar bill? Isn't it George Washington? Yea, Joe Biden will get none of my money! LOL.

Do you think Jesus would have approved of abortion? What about gay marriage?

The term liberal has changed over the years. It used to be that the term liberal meant the opposite of authoritarianism. However, today the modern liberal is just the opposite. Today the modern liberal stands for an all powerful centralized government that will punish you if you don't buy corporate health care. It is a government who insists on spying on its law abiding citizens while ignoring their Constitutional right to privacy. It is a government that passes the NDAA, which allows the government to detain you without due process and signed by Obama himself. I think it no small coincidence that the same political ideology that upholds abortion and gay marriage as "OK" is the same one that is destroying the country in every other facet of it's existence. When I read Revelation it is plain where we are all headed. We are headed towards a system that is so oppressive and centrally controlled, that they will execute you for not taking a mark on the right hand or forehead.

The family structure is the biggest obstacle to the collectivist. It used to be that in order for people to survive, they needed to depend on the family unit in order to survive. This meant that your loyalty and focus was the family unit and it meant being selfless in supporting it so that you can survive. To subvert this structure, collectivists came up with the nanny state. No longer must we feel the obligation to take care of those in our family or have any obligation towards them since we no longer depend on them to survive. It has produced a society full of self absorbed individuals who are largely disenfranchised with the rest of society that focus on empowering Big Brother to take care of them and the rest of society.

Is it not every citizen's right and responsibility to try to change what they do not like, rather than opting out? Nope. If you disagree you must abandon the country, not fight for it. I'm sorry but that statement is simply ridiculous. Cut and run is the coward's way out. I could be wrong, but I think that statement by wonby was sarcasm. Yes.

I have to disagree. All laws involve morality. They pass laws against "bad" things and make "good" thinks legal. If not, name one law that is devoid of morality. You can't do it. The way God wired us is to adopt the morality of an authority figure that we look up to. This means that we obtain our morality from our parents, the government, clergy, etc. Whichever authority figure you look up towards the most has the most influence. That is why you see Nancy Pelosi holding to the party line on abortion while Catholic priests basically excommunicate her from the church. For her, the party morality on abortion trumps that of the clergy. We also have history to prove what I'm saying here. Before slavery was made illegal in the 1800's, by in large people thought that it was "OK", even though some thought it suboptimal. However, after centuries of slavery being illegal, the pendulum has swung the other way. Now the mere mention of slavery is repugnant to all. Still not convinced? Look at the public views on abortion. Before abortion was made legal, by in large most thought it to be immoral. However, after decades of it being legal, the pendulum has swung the other direction. Now most tend to say it is "OK", even though it may be suboptimal, much like the slavery issue in reverse. You might say that this makes us lemmings. The Bible seems to agree by calling us sheep and we all look to a shepherd, like it or not.

Is it not every citizen's right and responsibility to try to change what they do not like, rather than opting out? Nope. If you disagree you must abandon the country, not fight for it.

But the collectivist seeks to create a one world order. This is the climax of the collectivist utopia. If so, move where exactly?

I think that the movement is a globalist one. Now that countries like the USSR are out of the way, the globalists can begin the agenda to bring down borders around the world. That is one of the main reason that the US refuses to secure the border with Mexico. They say it simply can't be done, but we see that the former USSR had no problem constructing a much bigger border than the US/Mexico border. It all comes down to the will to do something or the lack thereof. You have to understand, globalists think that they are doing the "right" thing. From my discussions with a few of them, they wish to end all wars by doing away with national sovereignty. Is doing away with war a noble effort? I suppose it depends on how you go about it. What should be alarming is if you create a global government that no one can overthrow, then if that government goes bad, which it inevitably will, no one can seek justice. The bottom line is, if the US goes under then China will usher in the new world order. Scary stuff, especially with their human rights record. You also have to realize that these people don't understand the powers that direct their paths and I really think they believe they have good intentions. They think that they are in control, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes but these people vote. Sometimes I think that the only threat to the powers that be is homeschooled children.

All he had to do was say he was helping Obama and they signed all of their freedoms away. I guess this is not too surprising on the left coast.

For arguments sake, lets say the GOP is bad like you say. Does this mean we vote for the DNC who advocates murder? Vote third party or not at all.

I do not believe all who call themselves Christians are actually born again, which makes a big difference. But, there are many issues which can be seen as important to Christians. Some of these issues are emphasized in the Republican party and some are emphasized by the Democratic party. James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. The Democratic party is seen as offering more to widows, orphans, the poor, the elderly. These are things Christians should care about. So some view the Democratic party as supporting what Christians should care about. The Nazis also distributed money to the poor. In fact, they were the most progressive country in the world as they taxed the top 4% at around 50% of their earnings. They used this money to throw at their base so that their wickedness would go unchecked. Essentially, they bought everyone off. I see this today with the DNC as well as the RNC. No amount of money given to me or the poor can cause me to vote for genocide.

Well said. The Christian right put "W" in office, but for what? They simply don't deliver, do they?

Withdraw from politics, eh? This is the JW approach. They think that just voting soils them and they refuse to do it. The more I see the more sympathetic I am to that way of thinking, especially as the GOP talks more and more about being more like the DNC to win elections.

I would have to agree. Most people now identify themselves as believing in God, but at odds with organized religion. These enables them to do pretty much whatever seems right in their own eyes without any chastening from the Lord. As for myself, I'm a firm believer that we all need chastened. Jesus set up his church for a reason.

If the church is no different than the world, then they are not the church of God.

You must disagree with the notion that abortion is murder. It is the only conceivable reason how you could justify voting for the party of abortion, namely the DNC.

If you mean that they are voting for representatives who support issues such as abortion, gay marriage and a jaundiced separation of church and state which, incidentally, only ever applies to Christianity and no other religion, then you are dealing with people who might identify themselves as "Christian," but have some difficulties. They may be Liberal/Progressive Christians who don't really believe what the Bible has to say, or believe that, over time, that things that God says are a sin just "drop off" the list occasionally as society becomes more "advanced." They might be new or not-well-grounded Christians who have had poor teachers and don't realize a Christian can't support these issues in any way. They might be afraid of how their family, friends, or society in general will treat them if they stand up for biblical values instead of going along with what secular society believes. They might not even know what being a Christian actually means. There are a great many variables. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is serious about their relationship with Christ. The church that I attend have good teachings on the issue, but I just scratch my head when I see Obama bumper stickers on their collective cars. Granted, there is a good racial mix so I'm assuming most are blacks. It would seem that the issue of race is more important to them than abortion, even though they attend a church that condemns abortion as murder. It would be like electing a black Nazi just because of their race. There may be other reasons, such as not wanting to vote GOP, but then, no one is forcing you to vote for one or the other. As for the marriage issue, I tend to take a different stand than most in the church. For me, I don't understand why a secular government is even involved in marriage. What does a secular government have to say about the sanctity of marriage? It is laughable.

Looking at the US, the majority of people in the US identify themselves as Christian, however, these same people keep electing representatives who oppose Christian social issues like abortion, gay marriage, and prayer in schools etc. Can we then say that Christians in the US are the most tolerant people on earth, or are they just indifferent?

And where does it say that exactly in the Bible?

my personal opinion it is Apollyon I happen to think that the false prophet is Mohammad. Think about it. It would have to be a prophet that points to God, but one who does not represent the God of the Bible. He would also have to be a world wide figure. I've read that the Dome of the Rock was referred to by the early church as the Desolation of Abomination and have read how the calendar in Daniel points to this fact. Does it not sit on the temple mount and does it not prevent the return to the worship of God on the Temple Mount? It also strikes me that those who do not receive the mark are beheaded. Who beheads today? Are they not Muslims? Is not Islam the fastest spreading religion on earth? Are they not the most aggressive spreading religion on earth? Do they not attempt to incorporate politics with religion? It all makes too much sense to discount. Again, just my 2 cents.