Knowingtruth

Tongues did in fact cease. They all spoke in known lanquages and they are listed in Acts 2:9. What they are trying to do today is false. I was once told by a person that he could help me learn how to speak in tongues, say what?! Apparently to this person and his church, tongues isn't a gift from God! I pray for all to come to the understanding of Gods word.lol I believe the speaking an unknown tongue followed by interpretation observed in Corith ceased in the course of time. Speaking in a known language unknown to a person may have continued though I have not observed that personally.

I consider that as of lower order because Paul prefers prophesying instead of speaking in an unknown language. That is with regard to personal prayer, not in a church. Both terrible and amusing! I mean, not experiencing utterance in my spirit; I do not agree that it is the Spirit. I believe healing is possible without the ability to speak in an unknown tongue. I believe both the healer and the healed will not be saved if they are not obedient servants of God. Sincerely, I don't like to be healed no matter what the condition is though a person who claims to speak in an unknown tongue! I main thurst of this thread is to indicate that the gift of speaking an unknown tongue that required an interpreter observed in Corinth ceased for good for centuries.,,,OK in exchange for a penny! lol!

I consider that as of lower order because Paul prefers prophesying instead of speaking in an unknown language.

I too have experienced doing unexpected thing or speaking up only to find out later that I was led by the Spirit to do so! Nevertheless, I have neither spoken in unknown tongue nor want to seek for such a gift of lower order which Paul discouraged !

To summarise as I see it, the phenomenon that was only local in Corinth ceased subsequently for thousands of years. That is the way I see it.It is no longer useful today. Unless of course you actually DO practice the gifts of the Spirit of God in which case, they are ALL very useful including the one mentionned in the op. I have experienced and believe the spiritual gifts. I am only saying that the last two special gifts mentioned by Paul in Corinth that required an interpretation ceased in course of time as the church grew spiritually. God has never used an agent's agent to make His words known anywhere in the Bible!

Again my point is that it is a least desired gift. Why one should strive to get it? What is much more objectionable is claiming that the second type of speaking in tongue is a sign of the Holy Spirit annointing and for salvation!

My response in bold italics 1. I answered this first question. You pray to interpret that you might understand what the Holy Spirit within you was praying. For it is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance or words( The word translated Utterance means words ) Sorry, there is no Bible support to indicate that the Holy Spirit is uttering through a person in Corinth. That happened in the book of Acts. It is the person's spirit in Corinth. 1 Corinthians 14 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 2. In regards to your statement " On Pentecost, they were speaking an existing foreign language whereas in Corinth they were speaking an unknown language. " You misunderstand the scripture. It's unknown to the speaker. It's the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance or words. The Holy Spirit of God doesn't need to learn the language, because God made language. If you haven't, do a study of the original Greek about the word usage in Acts 2:4. It says " they ( those gathered in the upper room ) spoke and the Holy Spirit gave the utterance". The people spoke, Holy Spirit gave the utterance or words. Speaking in tongues is a act of faith and cooperation between the person speaking and the Holy Spirit. The person gives the sound, the Holy Spirit gives the words or utterance. I agree that it was unknown to speaker on both occasions. Nevertheless, in Acts it was understood by people present without an interpreter because it was the Holy Spirit that was giving utterance in many known languages! When the Holy Spirit speaks, no one has control over the speech. On Pentecost, people were speaking without understanding what was happening. There was no act faith involved there because it was happening for the first time. As for the difference between the 2, there were people from all over the known world there at the time for the feast of Pentecost. The very people they were speaking to were the interpreters. In Corinth, they all spoke the same language, and nobody was interpreting what was being spoken by the Holy Spirit of God. For it is the Holy Spirit that Gives the utterance, or words. Speaking in tongues and prophecy are much the same when operated as the bible commands. One of the few differences is Speaking in tongues edifies ( builds up ) or charges up the speaker. Prophecy does not. There was no question of interpreters because they were hearing in their own language. I do not think the different sounds they were making happened to be the same language in Corinth! Prophesying is totally different because it was given in the language understood by the congregation and no interpretation is required. So speaking in tongue in Corinthian way may charge a person but prophecy charges everybody including the speaker.

The reason to pray to interpret you own private prayers is for as Paul put it. I will Pray in the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also. It is so you know what your praying about. Also, remember, when the day of Pentecost was fully come they acted strange also. In fact they acted so strange that everyone there watching and seeing what was going on thought they were all drunk. Remember Peter's word's. We are not drunk on new wine as all of you suppose. In fact, Paul prefers the same person to interpret. I wonder, where is the need for that to pray in an unknown tongue to start with and then interpret? I think you are equating what happened on Pentecost was the same as what was happenings in Corinth. They are totally different. On Pentecost, they were speaking an existing foreign language whereas in Corinth they were speaking an unknown language.

I am not sure if I misunderstood what you said here, so I thought I would point out a few things about this subject in your post and 1 that's not. If your already aware of what I say, then please forgive me for misunderstanding you. I bolded part of the verse you quoted. The reason is this. It says clearly if no interpreter then keep quite in the church. But then says it speak to himself and God. It says to stay quite in the church if no one is there to interpret, it does not say never are you allowed to speak when it's just you and God. In your private prayer time. In fact that's exactly what it says next. 1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. Also, I saw in another post, someone said that it edifies the person. That's correct and in the bible. But, the word edify is a bad translation. When the KJV was written, there was no English word that meant the same thing as the Greek in the text so they translated it edify. But today we have a word that better matches what the Greek says in this verse. It is charge. Like you would charge a battery. A person who speaks in an unknown tongue charges himself. Inside, in the spirit. That it what the verse is saying. Which is why it is ok to still do in your private prayer. We are even told to pray that we might interpret. Firestormx Joseph I agree with you almost. However, where is the need to interpret your private prayer? It had become a nuisance in Corinth--so also in many Pentecostal churches now--so Paul brought in an unusual solution in an interpreter!

To summarise as I see it, the phenomenon that was only local in Corinth ceased subsequently for thousands of years. That is the way I see it.It is no longer useful today. When God has given a great gift of speaking intelligently distinguishing us from animals where is the question of speaking in an unknown language?

Does it follow that because you do not see or witness that phenomenon today, you believe same ceases to happen to all? Who do you believe calls the shots when it comes to speaking in tongues? I have witnessed and carefully observed my relatives who claim this redundant activity. It has given me an impression that they behave as though God has become deaf and blind that require unusual sounds and acrobatics. It is against the preaching of Jesus! (Matthew 6:5 &6)

To summarise as I see it, the phenomenon that was only local in Corinth ceased subsequently for thousands of years.

There is a misconception here. In Romans 8:26-27, it is not the Holy Spirit that is groaning! This is evident if you looked at the previous verses in the context, that is, Romans 8:22 &23. The Holy Spirit only makes known to God what a person is groaning for without expressing in words. Similarly, in Ephesians 6:18 (not 16 as indicated by you) you are taking help of the Holy Spirit--the word used is supplication in KJV--to pray, not that the Holy Spirit prays to God on your behalf! We do not see anywhere in the Bible the Holy Spirit praying to God, let alone for mortals! The Holy Spirit is our Helper to discern the truth, and not sent to pray directly for us! Similarly, Jude 20 indicates praying with the help of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, a person will continue to pray on his own and praying also for the help of the Holy Spirit in this matter. Please refer KJV Bible that is more authoratative. Paul is referring to speaking in tongue in prayer is between person and God. That is for personal edification. There is no problem in that. Paul did that personally and separately, never in a church. Therefore, claim of praying in Spirit is not Bible supported. Of course, one can pray taking the help of the Holy Spirit. Always one prays with his spirit. Sorry, IMO Paul never greatly valued this method of praying. In fact, he lists at the end, and advised not to desire this but seek the gift of prophesying. Why one should seek lower grades? Ana Baptists and Methodists were not there at the time Corinthian church.

< Grabs some popcorn. > For reference this has been discussed on the boards in length here... Let's remember to discuss the subject and not the person. Remember too that is possible to disagree on a subject/doctrine without insulting the person you are debating. God bless, GE Thank for your reference. It is going to a mine of knowledge for me. Be blessed. Typo correction.Please read as 'Thanks'.

< Grabs some popcorn. > For reference this has been discussed on the boards in length here... Let's remember to discuss the subject and not the person. Remember too that is possible to disagree on a subject/doctrine without insulting the person you are debating. God bless, GE Thank for your reference. It is going to a mine of knowledge for me. Be blessed.

The cross is complete only with both vertical and horizontal fellowships. The vertical portion is longer and strongly rooted from the bottom. Without this strong vertical portion, one cannot support the horizontal part, and it comes later with our growth in the Lord. We need to be like both Peter and Good Samaritan. The complete cross symbolizes Christian life. I agree brother/sister - the complete cross symbolized the Christian life. Perhaps the OP (Original Post on this thread) wasn't clear on this. I've added a note about loving God and loving people in red. The focus of this discussion is on horizontal grace. However, we cannot give others horizontal grace without first being grounded or rooted from the bottom into God's grace. Sometimes we're quick to recieve God's grace and less understanding in giving grace to others? I would say that I believe horizontal grace doesn't come later but starts immidiately after we come to know the Lord as a result of being comformed to the mind of Christ. I do believe and hope that as we know the Lord longer we become more loving, gracious, kind, gentle, wise, and filled with self-control. What do you think? Good thoughts. God bless, GE What I mean is that without the firmly grounded vertical fellowship, the horizontal fellowship becomes a social interaction without agape love that goes with that. I believe both vertical and horizontal fellowships are of agape love. Be blessed.

Yes this is logical. Yes. I do think in the same way

Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here). The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers. I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles.

What do Christians think about it? Will it not mock at the supreme sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

The topic of this thread interests me because I was a Hindu before accepting Jesus Christ in USA in 1977. I have already published a book "Why I Am a Believer in Jesus"(A story of a Hindu Devanga Brahmin) that is available with amazon.com Pertaining to the thread subject, a person with strong faith in Jesus Christ can go anywhere he pleases as long as it gives him an opportunity to witness his faith in Jesus. Evangelical works demand that. Only thing is that one should not get his faith shaken by such a visit. He also should not get involved with their ritual of worship. That was the tactic Paul used with Gentiles. I have visited Taj Mahal twice after becoming a believer once alone and later with my wife. We continue to visit Hindu temples, not for worshipping but for studying the architecture that are many centuries old. Higher levels of Hinduism do not accept such worships as a part of spiritual understanding.

The cross is complete only with both vertical and horizontal fellowships. The vertical portion is longer and strongly rooted from the bottom. Without this strong vertical portion, one cannot support the horizontal part, and it comes later with our growth in the Lord. We need to be like both Peter and Good Samaritan. The complete cross symbolizes Christian life.