Sheniy

I think the main things in question in this part of the forum is what happened before Adam. Adam is a real person. The flood really happened (whether global or local). God created everything from nothing.What we're discussing here is the minor details. A literal seven day creation is not really necessary in the Christian faith, IMHO. A young cosmos is also not necessary. Is it possible? Of course. An old universe is also possible (and doesn't contradict Genesis, despite what some here say). Another possibility is that we're all inside something like the Matrix and God just booted up the program. Bam! Instant universe. And Jesus is The One! (I really like this theory, actually ) I think the only one here who wishes to disprove the bible is Jerry (although I could be wrong). I've heard this theory before. You've seen Chuck Missler's alien videos? The thing that I find interesting with this theory is how much aliens have been integrated into our culture. It was laughable decades ago, but more and more people are accepting the possibility of extraterrestrial life. So many people really wish that aliens would visit and impart their wisdom or make their lives more interesting or take them away in their time-traveling phone box ( ). It is still mostly "conspiracy theory", but that seems to be changing quickly. If this is the "great deception" and a wise alien (nephilim or fallen angel) suddenly showed up with great knowledge and superpowers, how many people on the planet right now would follow him? Wow, this was way OT. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

No, the problem is science lets the evidence tell the story, while creation science is telling the evidence what it is saying. Much of modern "science" is people taking the evidence and making up their own story. They have their story, now they do exactly what creationists do and fit the evidence to match their story. If we could filter out all scientific speculation and bias (aka man's opinion) and just look at just the facts and evidence, modern science would look much different. Awesome testimony. Time is relative, right? And God exists outside of time. God created time. Therefore, He could have created the universe in a way that took billions of years, or ten minutes, or a nanosecond. But yeah. I agree with you that it couldn't have happened without God.

I...uh...what?! The book of Job isn't history? ...Seriously? I always just assumed... I have a question, though. What you seem to be saying (and I don't disagree), is that Moses told the Israelites "the story of where we come from", aka Genesis, using a bit of creative license to teach theology as well. Isn't that sort of the same as an historical narrative? Isn't an historical narrative just a story of historical events? He was saying, "hey, guys! You know those vast, impressive temples for those other gods? Well, our God gets a capital G, and HIS temple is the whole freaking world! He totally PWNS!" (In my example, Moses uses internet slang. I...read too many web comics...) Anyway, he was less concerned with specific details and more with getting the point across. It can still be historical (i.e. God made everything, Adam is a real person, etc). It can still be the seedbed of christian theology, the foundation of the truths that we live by, but it is a story. I've heard other people say that Christianity copied pagan religions, and some of it really is nonsense. But...maybe there are some similarities (divinely inspired!) in order for us to bring the Gospel to the people in those religions. Why not? Side note: Moses using the pagan culture at the time to make a point is similar IMHO to Paul doing the same with the Unknown God in Athens (Acts 17). In verse 23 he says "I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship". He studied their religion to find a way to share the Gospel with them. Instead of pointing to the false idols, saying, "Y'all are just plain wrong," he starts with what they know and believe, and he works from there. In the atheistic worldview, they've reluctantly accepted that the universe had a beginning with the big bang, but they can't explain how it started or why. (we can!) Some are reluctantly conceding that life on this planet couldn't have started accidentally. There must have been an intelligent hand in there somewhere. Their answer? Probably aliens. So...instead of telling them how and why they are wrong, why can't we do as Paul did and say, "Hey, you know that unknown intelligence you're looking for? Let me tell you about Him." Just a thought.

Excellent thread, nebula. I understand where you're coming from, having a similar experience in a church as a kid. This was a church who's view of the bible was Sola Scriptura, "Scriptures alone". They were positive that they had all the answers, and they used this as a reason to tear down other denominations and believers. There was a pastor there who was more interested in indoctrinating us with this particular brand of christianity than actually teaching about God. "This is how we're right," he'd teach, "and this is how everyone else is wrong." I learned from him how to bash people over the head with the "truth". Matthew 23:15 ""Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are." I realized later that I was being indoctrinated (and manipulated) specifically because my mom was questioning a particular doctrine that they hold very dearly. They were using me to get to her. She was just a mother and housewife and never went to bible college, but she was more devoted to the Word and the actual Truth than using the bible to defend a doctrine. She showed me where they were wrong and how they were manipulating scripture to "prove" their point. Looking back, I don't see any love or God in those teachings from my pastor. They didn't bring me closer to Jesus, but caused division in the body of Christ. I haven't seen this passage quoted yet, but maybe I missed it. It seems appropriate. 1 Corinthians 13:1-8 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away."

Definitely miscommunicating! Glad we can agree on something. lol Okay. Can you explain how the Nebular Hypothesis contradicts with my speculation of Genesis on page 1 of this thread? I did read through your other (Nebular) thread and I think I got the gist of it. You brought it up when contradicting my post, and I was just hoping for some clarification. It's not a huge deal, though. I realize that I did sort of go off on a weird and imaginative tangent, and I'm sorry for going OT, but that's how my brain works. lol

============================================================================================= Try the Generalization Thread Nah. I should have posted in nebula's creation theory thread. Too bad it's closed now.

Tired of dividing already divided quotes, so I'm posting my reply in blue. What Like Dandelions? We've talked about "Specifics" before if I recall, No? Bring Specifics Sheniy. ************* I am referring to my original post, which you seemed to have issue with (but now you don't?). What do dandelions have to do with anything? ****************** I do. Because it's not there **************** I have shown where it is possible. If you don't wish to see it, that's fine. I'm not going to twist your arm. I agree there is some speculation, but there's nothing wrong with that. **************** OF WHAT?? Were getting into "ridiculous" Sheniy **************** I agree. After my original post you mentioned something about quasi-nebula something, but you didn't explain how it contradicted. I was just trying to understand why you even brought it up. **************** If I see any, you'll most likely hear from me *********************** I did hear from you. You pointed out several contradictions which either I explained (and you have since agreed with...I think?), or I ignored because they were completely irrelevant to my original post. *********************** I've pointed out the discrepancies with the Big Bang Official Theory and The WORD of GOD quite specifically. The balls in your court whether to accept or reject. I'm not gonna twist your arm. *facepalm* I don't even know why I bother. You don't seem to even listen. I should have posted in a different thread.

I am limited in my quote boxes, so I had to combine some. What Specifically? I do. But again, you have to provide Specific Examples of some of the "Everything" you're referring too. Answer to first question: Um...anything. Provide any real actual proof (not mere evidence or conspiracy theory or speculation) that I am wrong and I will change my view. It still might not be your view. I might just alter my view to accommodate your proof...if you have any. Second answer: I did provide a specific example. The big Bang. I reject the "there is no God and it just happened on its own" part, but yeah. Yes. Conceptually they're more or less the same. The "devil" so to speak, is in the details. This lines up with The WORD but it doesn't line up with the Big Bang See...I already said I reject the evolutionary take on the big bang. I reject the parts that require that God doesn't exist. The rest (universe has a beginning and it exploded into existence), I consider as possible and in line with the bible, as I have shown. I don't see where the problem is. The Earth First. Don't know "HOW" other than HE Spoke it. As for where it "Matter" came from....pure conjecture from me: From Nothing The plain Word of God seems to indicate that the heavens were created first, or at least at the same time (Gen 1:1). *shrug* That's what it seems like to me. As for the rest, I agree. He spoke and it came from nothing. I just don't think it goes against the bible to see that creative force as mega-explosive. Please post the Specific Issue and I'll try and explain it. I don't know. You brought it up as contradictory. Shouldn't you provide the specifics? lol No there isn't. But it depends on where it is being applied. It should not be applied to Imagining other "scenarios" that are in direct contradiction to The WORD. IMHO, there is enough there in Genesis to understand the basic framework and to rule out "Concocted" scenarios. Agreement with me has nothing to do with it IMHO, Are you IN-Line with The WORD is the question..... that needs to be asked of One-Self. If I fall out Of-Line with The WORD, I would expect you to correct me quickly. 1. You already stated my post was in line with the word (see above). If it isn't in line with the Word, please show me where, in my post specifically. And please don't just attack other general evolutionary theories, as I already said I reject most parts of them. 2. If the specifics aren't exactly included in the bible and I'm doing a bit of speculating (which I've admitted to), where is the problem? As long as I'm not forcing my own speculation down your throat and demanding it be accepted as THE ONLY TRUTH, which I'm not, and as long as it doesn't change any already established vital christian doctrines, which it doesn't...where's the issue?

Well there is no 'Private" interpretation.... (2 Peter 1:20) "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." And please don't say this only speaks to 'Prophecy". That is too say..."there are no Private interpretations of Prophecy but many of Scripture" There is only ONE TRUE interpretation of THE WORD....That's the PLAIN WORD OF GOD. That verse in context is clearly referring to a prophet's revelation of prophecy. It's saying that the promises of God that we hope in (the prophecies of His return) were given by God and not made up by humans. If you suggest it means something else, aren't you adding your own interpretation to the text? Just saying...

Hi, Enoch. I know we seem to disagree a lot, but I do respect your knowledge and understanding on the subject, and your adherence to the Word, and your love for the truth. I share the same love and respect for the Word of God, and I in no way want to go against it. I do believe it is 100% inspired (read: God-breathed). I believe our disagreement comes from our own personal, fallible interpretations of the written text. If you can show me proof beyond doubt that I am wrong, I am more than willing to change my view. I just haven't seen that proof yet. Another thing I want to clarify (which I have explained elsewhere in this forum): I reject the evolutionary take on the big bang. I reject wholeheartedly any part of the evolutionary theory that doesn't allow for the possibility of God. Having said that, I don't think that everything in the evolutionary theory ultimately rejects God. The base component of the big bang theory is that the universe has a beginning and that it came from practically nothing, which I believe is very much in line with the bible. Well firstly, you would have to show.....IN SCRIPTURE, where this explosion is? I thought I gave a decent example here that provides the possibility of an explosion. "'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.' I found a technical translation of Genesis that reduces each word down to it's original root, which is interesting. The word for "created" came from a word that means "to fatten". To expand from something small..." It is by no means proof, but it allows for the possibility of a rapidly expanding universe at the very beginning. My question for you is this: if not a rapid expansion from nothing, then how did the universe happen? I'm not asking who: we both know it's God. I'm asking how He did it. Specifically. Where did the stars and galaxies and planets and nebulae come from? Again, I thought I covered this in my post here: "This new life needs sustenance, so He steps back from the earth into the space surrounding it, collects the nearby gasses into a ball, and lights them on fire. He regulates the temperature of this new star, and sets the earth into a particular orbit around it, giving the planet a spin so every corner is exposed to the life-giving heat and energy." Note that in my very speculative (I do not deny it) example, the sun is made after the vegetation, on the "fourth day", along with the moon and the rest of the planets. The rest of the cosmos also becomes visible at this time. In fact, I did include the events of all seven days of creation in order, starting with light and ending with rest in paradise. I did read your other thread on nebula something or other (I'm not a scientist, so much of it went over my head), but I don't see how it contradicts any of what I wrote here. Can you give me a specific example? Preferably in layman's terms? The heavens declare the glory of God. When those christian scientists in the past observed the world and realized it wasn't flat or it wasn't the center of the universe, they changed their worldview to fit with this observation. Their view of the universe expanded, and so did their view of God. I don't see how this is any different. It only becomes a danger if I use science to replace God or change the fundamental Truths that we live by, which I am clearly not doing. Mystifying, isn't it? Astounding. All that power and glory in just a single thought? Amazing. The very idea of it makes me tremble in awe. You believe God created the universe out of nothing, right? Ex Nihilo and all that. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yes but with the Big Bang Scenario......"Light" would have already been!! .....The Explosion. See It? verse 2: "and darkness was over the surface..." <--- referring to the earth verse 3: "And God said 'Let there be light,' and there was light." The earth was shrouded in darkness. The bible doesn't refer to there being darkness absolutely everywhere. My post accounts for this, as well. This is the Problem Sheniy....... "Imagine". There is enough "Light" in Scripture to summarily dismiss this rather easily. Couple that with the Inherent basic science and logic contradictions the theory has with how vigorously and dogmatic this nonsense is defended; well; the writing is.... as they say (Or as Daniel says), on the Wall. We were created in the image of the Creator. This is where our creativity comes from. Creativity requires imagination. There is nothing wrong with using this God-given ability. I have a vivid imagination, and God uses it to help me see Him better. However, like I said, it is just my own speculation on the way God created everything. I wasn't there, so I can't know the details for sure. I like speculating and wondering and imagining in order to try and wrap my limited human mind around the vast awesomeness that is God. It is, IMHO, a form of worship. What I won't do is tell you that you must agree with my speculations. That wouldn't be fair to you.

I think this is one of the first threads I posted in when I joined this site last month, but my view of Genesis 1 was very limited. I spent most of my life seeing the first chapter of the bible as just an account of creation that must (MUST) be accepted as word-for-word-literal, so I never allowed myself to look deeper. I've since rejected the need to see it as such (not that I can't view it as literal, but it's no longer a necessity). I had recently stumbled onto the idea that the specific 7 day creation week was meant to parallel the 7 day jewish work week (which I posted here last month). Since then, seeing the different ideas of people here and really diving into the Word, Genesis has exploded with new meaning. Like a big bang. haha. In Genesis 1:2, the Spirit of God moved over the earth. This is the Strong's definition for the word "moved". The Spirit of God moved over the earth like an eagle broods over or cherishes her young. There was love and tenderness, not just creative power.

I still don't understand why christians can't believe that the universe exploded into existence. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." I found a technical translation of Genesis that reduces each word down to it's original root, which is interesting. The word for "created" came from a word that means "to fatten". To expand from something small... I sort of imagine God creating the world like an artist working on a piece of artwork (it clearly is that, at least). An idea forms in His mind, and this reality begins with a spark of thought. BANG. The explosion isn't entirely chaotic as He guides it, shapes it, like a potter working with clay. I can see Him really getting into it, getting his hands dirty with cosmic space stuff, swirling the galaxies with his finger (anthropomorphically speaking ). He leans back, closes one eye for perspective, then adds a dash of Pleiades to the glittering Cosmos. Then he looks around for it...there. Buried in masses of swirling space debris and dust, it hangs in space. This tiny rock, formless and empty and dark, but full of His purpose. He hovers over the surface like a protective parent, inspecting the depths and dark places, pushing away bits of asteroid and space rock that threaten to destroy this tiny world. This is where His creation truly begins, and His grand plan echoes through time. "Let light be," He says, and a nearby rock bursts into flame as it approaches, its light flares and flickers above the earth's surface, burning away the darkness. The waters glisten blue-black as the light grows brighter, and He catches the blazing comet before it crashes into the sea. He holds it over the world like a torch, then nods in satisfaction. He moves the waters, separating them, creating the atmosphere for life to exist. The lower waters recede as land appears. This is the first time His creation comes out of the water, clean and new, but it will not be the last, and He smiles. He touches the earth, pulling out the elements in the dirt and forming them into complex mechanisms that house the blueprints for an even greater, more complex, self-replicating machine. He plants the seed into the ground and it dies, then a greater life springs forth. This is the first time in this creation that life comes from a death, but it won't be the last. He smiles, and life fills the earth with a vibrant green, life in many different flavors and kinds. This new life needs sustenance, so He steps back from the earth into the space surrounding it, collects the nearby gasses into a ball, and lights them on fire. He regulates the temperature of this new star, and sets the earth into a particular orbit around it, giving the planet a spin so every corner is exposed to the life-giving heat and energy. The comet He was holding He launches into space, setting it on a trajectory that will bring it back to light up the sky again someday. He sweeps up the dust surrounding the planet like a curtain being pulled away, and the distant stars and galaxies can now cast their light upon the earth. He forms the dust into a ball and hangs it nearby to reflect the light of the sun on the dark side of the planet. He cleans up the rest of the solar system in this way, adding several more bright spots to the night sky, and sets them in orbit around the sun. He examines His handiwork from the perspective of the earth, and is satisfied. He then reaches into the sea and pulls out some clay. Again, using the elements of the earth, he creates a tiny mechanism encoded with self-replicating life. Some of these, he throws into the sea, others he tosses into the sky. They grow into more life, different from the plants and trees, but still connected by the stuff of the earth they were made from. The variations in this life are numerous, from the luminescent jellyfish and the playful dolphins to the joyful songbirds and the colorful hummingbirds zipping from flower to flower. He shapes some more life out of the earth and places them on land, and they grow into graceful felines and creeping lizards and a myriad of other animal. He smiles again; His work here is almost done. He reaches for the earth again and pulls out some more clay. This particular piece is special. He forms it like the creatures he made before; the same encoded life, the same biological format, with a few differences in appearance and function. But the biggest difference, the one thing that sets apart this creature of dirt from all the rest is when He breathes into it His own breath of Life. This Life, this spirit, is more true, more real, than the mechanical life on the earth. It is an aspect of Himself that now resides inside this dirt man, who is now an image, an earthly "copy" of Himself. The dirt man awakens and recognizes his Creator, and the Creator smiles. It is nearly finished, but it is not good for this man to be alone. He causes the man to fall asleep, then He takes a portion of the man's flesh from his side and forms a partner, a bride. Now it is finished. This is the first time in this creation that this happens, but will not be the last. His creation is complete. The man and woman awaken and become one again. The Creator places them together in the paradise He made for them, and He dwells among them. And He decides that this is very, very good. And that is how I imagine it.

TRUTH!

Hi. First of all, I want to say THANK YOU! This post was so neat and clear, and I didn't feel like I was being whacked over the head with a textbook or the bible. Also, I didn't feel overwhelmed with the amount of data you were giving me. Thanks for keeping it short and focused on one specific thing. Okay, so even though this is specifically about spiral galaxies, I'm seeing three different points here. (please bear with me) 1st point: Really distant spiral galaxies should have less twist because they're too old. 2nd point: The light we see from the really distant spiral galaxies is from when they were not old enough to form spirals. 3rd point: The universe declares the Glory of God. (I happen to agree with this one) It could be my sleep-deprived brain (sorry...still haven't caught up yet...), but it seems like point 2 counters point 1 by saying that the light we see from the oldest galaxies is from their beginning...when they were young... As for the third point, I'm sure you have one, but...other than "the universe was made by God", I don't know what it is, and I don't want to assume incorrectly. I have more questions and opinions on this (of course, lol), but we'll just start with that.

I am Absolutely Stupefied Connor. Here's an emoticon that perfectly illustrates a complete summation of this statement, I think you might understand this one..... I must have posted a demonstrable 1 + 1 = 2, CLEAR and Obvious, Thoroughly Documented Scripture Laden Rebuttal to this @ least 20 times....I'm @ the end. Connor you seem like a Good Man to me...... so it's not personal. If my replies have come off as Condescending or Arrogant I am Truly sorry, it's not and wasn't my intent. But I have provided Counter Arguments with a METRIC TON of Support. There's not much else I can do. I stated the case....I rest. I have to admit, Enoch, your posts are sometimes so...loud, that I don't even read them completely (if I don't, then other's likely don't as well). I will skim them over and reply to some bits here or there, but I'm sure there is a lot that I missed, and other parts that seemed a bit off topic and so I disregard them. From your perspective, you've given a "metric ton" of evidence, but I haven't seen that much. Some, yes. But likely not as much as you think. Although, I did just confess to not reading all of it...so... Anyway, my point of this is that you left out the second part of connor's sentence, which is important to his argument (I think...). Using scripture as evidence doesn't really work if your intended audience doesn't agree with your interpretation of that Scripture. I am pretty sleep deprived right now, so I hope this makes any sense...

You have piqued my interest. Especially that bit on Pleiades being considered good. And the bit on Orion, because it is my favorite constellation. (Yes, I have a favorite constellation. I'm a nerd. ) Apparently I need to learn what especially means. This is what sleep deprivation does to my brain.

I've heard a theory that uses time dilation as a possible explanation that (I think) allows for both old and young earth. Or...maybe it was old earth with an "as written" interpretation of Genesis 1. It was interesting. I'll have to see if I can find it again. I forgot, I was going to comment on the issues you were having with quoting. I've noticed that sometimes the quote button doesn't always work. If I refresh the page, it seems to fix this problem. Hope that helps!

LOL. My Mother would Sternly disagree with you. Only Adam was CREATED from Dust, Love. And most importantly for our discussion....in VIOLATION of all known "Scientific" LAWS. Sorry about that. I try to be concise but I have much to say. Do I use appropriate Transition? LOL I was just teasing about the posts. I'm thinking that maybe your emphasis is a bit to...emphatic? I feel like sometimes you're SCREAMING AT ME!!!!! I know you don't mean it that way, but it's a little unnerving. Maybe...tone it down a bit? There are other ways to get your point across that won't make someone's eyes bleed. As for the created from dust part...I guess I don't understand your point. As for you not being created, I disagree. Whether you refer to the natural process created by God that turns elements into minerals, drawn in by vegetation, converted to nutrients that are absorbed and assimilated as part of a complex biological system that builds a human being from a speck to a whole person (made from dust), or the direct hand of God that ordains every life's beginning (breath of life), you are created. Read Psalms 139 for more proof. Are you asking for a living example of someone created exactly the way Adam was? Really, all it says is that he was created out of dust, which is really not all that different than anyone else. We don't know the specific details of Adam's creation other than 1) made from dust, 2) breath of life. So...what do you want an example of that I've not already given? And...again, I've risen to the challenge without understanding why. (Why do you tempt me?! lol) So...what's this have to do with breaking laws?

I've considered that view, as well. I've considered the full spectrum of views, actually! As of right now, though I'm still on the fence. (It is entirely a creationist fence, though. Just to clarify )

The bible can only get it wrong if you're assuming it (or rather, the author) is trying to be scientifically or chronologically accurate. There's nothing in the text to indicate that it was intended to be taken as such. It was not written by a scientist for scientific exposition, nor was it written by an historian, but by a shepherd prince (that's a cool title ) to the people who followed him. As some of us have shown, the text seems to indicate an historical narrative (aka STORY) with a mythical bend whose intended audience was the Israelites, from whom the text probably came and who would have known it well and recognized its parallels (even if you do not). Other cultural comparisons confirm this. Evidence has been provided, but you've already rejected it without grounds (other than belittling our ability to understand the bible). If you'd like, it can be posted again. If you'd like evidence of the importance and value of cultural perspective when reading a text, I can give a clear example from Scripture. Several, actually. Thank you for clarifying that first part. I still don't understand what your point was, though... Actually, Enoch's link about speed slowing down might fill in the gaps for me. I'd never heard it before.

Hi, Tolken! When you say that the stars "became visible" on the fourth day, are you suggesting they were created earlier? Like in Genesis 1?

Your posts are alway so long, Enoch! It's hard to find the two lines I actually want to quote. lol This challenge was easy, actually. Look in the mirror. YOU are created from dust. We are 65% Oxygen, 18% Carbon, 10% Hydrogen, and 7% other elements like Iron, Calcium, Magnesium, Nitrogen, Sodium, etc, all elements found in the earth. (This is, of course, not counting the water in our bodies) We are living clay men (and women), made of dirt and water, and our bodies are completely biodegradable when we are done with them. "to dust you shall return" Now...forming a man from dust without a designer...that's another story.

This song is on my worship playlist! And I love Jesus Culture!

I think he was referring to 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" But I think this is referring to us as believers in Christ. Still...I see his point. What point is that? I was getting to it, but I would like to back it up with scripture. I have some in mind, but I can't remember where they are. That means I need to do some digging.

Hmm...fascinating. I'm going to look into that more. This also can be evidence of a big bang, you know.