OakWood

Yes, you're right we won't go through the wrath of God, but the Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. The Tribulation is caused by the action of the antiChrist. The wrath of God is where God takes vengeance on the wicked unbelievers. Anybody who believes that the Trib is a wrath of God obviously can't tell the difference between good and evil. Since when has God punished the righteous? Because an awful lot of believers are going to be persecuted and beheaded. Is that God's work? We won't be able to buy or sell. Why not? Is God punishing us for something, but meanwhile he leaves those who have taken the mark alone and allows them to buy and sell? If you read my opening post, I said that I was leaning towards the Post-trib - pre-wrath position. Pre-wrath? ie before the wrath - so why are you claiming that we will not go through the wrath of God when I never claimed that we would.

Two comings with the post-trib. Jesus comes, collects us and passes judgement all in one visit. Technically it's three if you're going to split hairs about him toing back and fro while he does this. But it's not like the pre-Trib where he comes with a shout, collects us and then disappears again for a while before he comes back a Third time. The whole point about a second coming is that he has left this World for nearly two thousand years and then he returns and when he does return everybody will know about it because he is here to put the World to rights. According to pre-Trib he returns (everybody will know about it because he comes with a shout, plus we disappear) then nothing...... the entire World carries on as before as it sails into the Tribulation. "Wasn't that Jesus we saw?" asks the World. "I don't know" is the answer, "it can't have been because he's gone again. Oh well, might as well carry on with our wicked ways. I was almost ready to believe that he exactly exists then, but he's gone, so I must have imagined it". That's just how ridiculous the pre-Trib scenario is! With a post-Trib scenario, the World is already in deep Tribulation, some may even still believe that the antiChrist is a messiah of some sorts, but then the real Messiah returns and the battle begins. The first thing he does is protect us from his wrath by lifting us up in the air to meet him as he arrives. The entire World will see this and probably realise who he is - but by then it will be too late for them!

I'm not sure if they were punished by God or not, it's a bit extreme to say that they were. I can't see God punishing people who are not saved because he wants to save as many as possible. Today's unrighteous non-believer may become tomorrow's saved Christian. God will only punish the persistently unrepentant and being a patient God he will reserve that punishment for judgement day when there are no more chances left. However, I will say this. People who live unrighteous lifestyles sometimes become the victims of their own doing. These people were living a party lifestyle, a Godless existence based purely on self-gratifying pleasure. They had no protection from the Lord because they either never knew him or they had already rejected him. Whatever happened to them was an accident waiting to happen. The Lord was not there to stop it because the Lord was not wanted. God is a gentleman and he will never go where he is not wanted. But likewise, he will remember that he was not wanted and on judgement day he will tell those who did not want him that he never knew them!

By Far-right, you obviously mean 'sensible and rational'. Only the Left describes sensible and rational as being Far-right. Or to put it another way, far-right is actually 'Libertarian' or that's what it used to mean until Leftists hijacked the term and twisted it to mean anybody who stands for freedom as opposed to governance under Leftist tyrannies such as Fascism, Communism, and Nazism. In the 1920s and the 1930s Hitler's Nazi party was described as being far-left (as indeed it was), but then the Communists who despised Hitler threw their toys out of the pram and put pressure on the Media to start describing Hitler as being far-right. Eventually Leftist lies and misappropriation of words led to the Nazis being wrongfully referred to as Right Wing. The Leftist lies and distortion of words remain today, and anybody who dares to criticise Leftist policies is described as being Far-Right.. In fact anybody who understands the dangers of Muslim immigration, fears for their culture and fears for the future of their kids is wrongly branded as Far-Right in an attempt to liken their political views as being similar to the Nazis. But in reality the Nazis were far Left, just as the Communists and the Fascists were. The only racists are on the Far-Left. True Right Wingers are conservative libertarians who believe in a 'live and let live' policy, only showing anger when their own freedom and well-being is affected. In other words people who criticise the reckless immigration policies that Leftists have introduced couldn't care less about skin colour, they are only concerned about ideology and whether that ideology is a threat or not. But the spiteful and deceitful Left, the original masters of lies and spin, brand such people as being racist, even though Right Wingers do not judge people by their race but only whether they believe in a dangerous ideology or not. You see, you can't change your skin colour but you can change what you believe in, and if you believe in a terrorist ideology such as Islam, or you believe in thieving or murdering then a rational person has every right to fear you.... but the Leftists being believers in a false utopia which itself is built on wishful thinking and fantasy are liars by nature, and because they are deluded fantasists they cannot offer practical solutions to any problem, they can only use propaganda to further their cause. So doing what comes naturally to them they call anybody who disagrees with them, 'racists' or 'bigots'. They love to slander their enemies. Today is no different to yesterday, and the Left are still up to their old tricks. If you don't toe the Leftist line, and don't follow the Orwellian code of Political Correctness, you will be branded 'far-right', or a bigot or a racist. That's exactly how the Left like it because it's the only thing that empowers them!

Scripture DOES NOT tell us that believers will not enter the seven year Tribulation. 1st thessalonians 5:9 tells us that we will not enter the wrath. That is correct. We will not enter the wrath of God. because God will not punish believers, but the Tribulation is not wrath it is persecution by the antiChrist.

No, it's not three comings. Jesus returning and rapturing us while he returns is not three comings of Jesus. Jesus came two thousand years ago. He hasn't returned since. When he returns he will rapture us and we will be lifted up to him and then Jesus will fight the antiChrist. Unless there is something seriously wrong with my basic arithmetic that is a second coming. However according to pre-Trib theory Jesus comes down takes us up with him with a shout and the shout announces his coming (second coming), then he disappears for a bit (and does nothing to judge - or interact with the World, just makes a flying stop to pick us up) while the World merrily carries on with the Tribulation- and then Jesus comes back later to fight Satan. I make that two comings... plus the original coming two thousand years ago.... makes that three! Why are you insisting that the post-Trib also counts three comings when it doesn't?

It doesn't... plain and simple... it doesn't.

I intended to say that MAYBE we will be protected, because I don't know..... maybe we won't be. But what exactly do you mean by protected anyway? Does protection mean complete protection or does it mean just protected from the horrible worst? Believers will suffer to a greater or lesser extent, but God won't allow it to be more than believers can bear. It's like saying that people suffered during World War 2. Everybody did to some extent but some more than others. Some people hardly suffered at all because their warmth of character and their sense of humour got them through it. But everybody suffered to some extent because they all knew somebody that died - they lost loved ones, they lost property, they lost some freedom - but nobody was completely free from it. I realise that the Trib will be much worse than this, but not everybody will suffer to the same extent. The more you speak out for God, the more you will be a target for persecution. Only the bravest will do this and they risk being beheaded for doing so. Some may keep their heads down, but they will still feel the effects of the anti-Christ's rule in some way or another. There is nothing in scripture to say that only non-believers will enter the Great Trib, nothing at all. God has always tested his people. Why do modern Christians think that they are exempt from this? We are not special and we are not even fit to tread in the footsteps of Christian martyrs who came before us. We have had it relatively easy compared to them. So why do we believe that we are a special case? The apostle Peter suffered and died for his cause, John the Baptist was beheaded, thousands of Christians since then have been killed or suffered because of their faith, so why do we have the audacity to think that we are special, with our fancy houses, and our convenient electricity and our comfortable beds? Why do we deserve any more than worthier people who came before us to be dragged to safety when others were not?

I don't know how believers are protected, I'm sure that to some extent they may be, but I don't think believers will be raptured before it. I really don't... I think believers will have to endure it.... but with the Lord covering your back, it may be hard, but not unbearable.

Nevertheless, you claimed that unbelievers will suffer during the Tribulation. They won't. I don't care if there will be new believers who come to Christ later, they are still believers, and the only reason they suffer is because they are believers. Unbelievers will not suffer. In fact at one point they will be celebrating the death of the two witnesses, and exchanging presents. It doesn't sound as if they are being persecuted to me, it sounds as if they are having a whale of a time! BELIEVERS WILL BE PERSECUTED DURING THE TRIBULATION UNBELIEVERS WILL NOT (unless they become believers at some point during the Trib and then they will). Later on, approaching the end of the Trib, some unbelievers may start to suffer (sores on their bodies and such), but only when Jesus returns at the very end of the Trib or near the end, will unbelievers be punished - until that point they will probably be having a reasonably comfortable, if not a great time.

Rev 19 can happen without a pre-Trib rapture. It merely describes what happens the antiChrist and the Beast are finally forced to battle with Jesus after the saints are raptured to be with Christ AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION, or do you believe that the anti-Christ and Beast are destroyed before the Tribulation? Which frankly makes no sense at all. I'm becoming more and more convinced that the post-Trib is true because the replies that I am getting from pre-Tribbers are either regurgitation of the same stuff I have heard before or an emphasis on things that can equally apply to post-Trib and pre-Trib but with a pre-Trib spin put on to it. Before I started this thread I prayed to God that he would not let me be deceived, and my initial ten reservations still remain. There has to be three comings of Christ for the pre-Trib to be true, and Jesus comes with a shout....... so there's no secret rapture or anything. Yet no matter how many times I point this out, I am told that this so-called second coming (the alleged pre-Trib rapture) is not a coming at all. I've never experienced such blindness here on the Worthy forum. A coming is a coming.... even if you refuse to call it that!

Rev 19 can happen without a pre-Trib rapture. It merely describes what happens the antiChrist and the Beast are finally forced to battle with Jesus after the saints are raptured to be with Christ AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION, or do you believe that the anti-Christ and Beast are destroyed before the Tribulation? Which frankly makes no sense at all. I'm becoming more and more convinced that the post-Trib is true because the replies that I am getting from pre-Tribbers are either regurgitation of the same stuff I have heard before or an emphasis on things that can equally apply to post-Trib and pre-Trib but with a pre-Trib spin put on to it. Before I started this thread I prayed to God that he would not let me be deceived, and my initial ten reservations still remain. There has to be three comings of Christ for the pre-Trib to be true, and Jesus comes with a shout....... so there's no secret rapture or anything. Yet no matter how many times I point this out, I am told that this so-called second coming (the alleged pre-Trib rapture) is not a coming at all. I've never experienced such blindness here on the Worthy forum. A coming is a coming.... even if you refuse to call it that!

The unbelievers? What you mean the ones get beheaded for refusing to take the mark and are not allowed to buy and sell, but then are later rewarded by reigning with Christ for a thousand years? Are those the unbelievers you are talking about?

The attack took place at a gay club, but I'm still betting that the LGBT crowd will not recognise Islam as being a problem, but will still have an axe to grind with Christians.

When you say that the second coming comes after the rapture you really mean the third coming don't you, seeing as Jesus has to come (with a shout) to collect the elect to be raptured. Let's just hope that nobody hears that shout otherwise people might think that Jesus is returning!

I'm voting to leave.

Correct. Already there are more holocaust denial books being published.

Rather than blaming in on Islam.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637414/Everyone-running-Gunman-bursts-gay-nightclub-Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html

Simple answer: Muslims. In the Palestinian territories Mein Kampf is the second best selling book after the Q'uran. Mein Kampf is anti-Semitic rubbish. The false prophet Mohammed hated the Jews, therefore Muslims love books like Mein Kampf. It's not Politically Correct to say so, but Islam is spreading throughout the West like a disease and Muslims are lapping up stuff like this.

I'm leaning towards post-Trib. I cant be certain - but with pre-Trib you have to make assumptions. Both theories are valid but pre-Trib only works if you already assume that there is a pre-Trib rapture. If you didn't know either way you would conclude that the rapture is post-Trib. Seeing as assumptions are usually made when people already believe that they have the answer before the question is asked, I can only conclude that the pre-Trib is the weaker of the two theories. So let's say at this stage I might be what you call a 'Post-Trib Agnostic'.

It's just more of the over-complicated stuff that made me suspect the pre-Trib in the first place. Pre-Tribbers are thinking too hard - they are making the simple complicated. Both theories are valid but pre-Trib is more complicated and somewhat unnecessary, and I believe that's what wishful thinking does to people. ~Almost nobody had heard of pre-Trib including great Christian thinkers until Darby proposed it and such a popular and comforting theory has become widely accepted. If it makes you feel better to think that Jesus returns wearing a banana-colored superman cape then there's nothing in scripture to say that he won't.

You've made some good points but it still seems to me that you've used the pre-Trib as a foregone conclusion and then made scripture fit it. Your first point: Of course wicked men will still be on the Earth while we are raptured but that apllies to Post-Trib just as much as it does pre-Trib. Christians endure the Trib and then they are snatched away while the wicked are still on Earth. There is nothing here that suggests we will be raptured before that. It works either way. You're just using the pre-Trib rapture as a foregone conclusion and then imagining the story to make it fit. Other points: Jesus calls with a shout. It's not secret, it's not subtle - therefore that is the second coming. If he comes again there is a third coming. Pre-Tribbers can't seem to get their heads around that and they attempt to ignore this second coming and pretend that it's not really a coming at all, when it is. So what if Israel are God's chosen people. That does not mean that Christians will be raptured before the Tribulation. The Jews have always been God's chosen people so it makes no difference -and once again, it's just an assumption made to fit in with the concept of a pre-Trib rapture. pre-Tribbers claim that the time of the gentiles will be over therefore Christians have to vanish. No Jews vanished during the time of the Gentiles did they? While all the above points show that a pre-Trib rapture is possible and it can't be ruled out, a post-Trib view fits just as well. Now when you consider that extra info as to be added to make the pre-Trib work (such as three comings of Christ) then I still conclude that the pre-Trib rapture is a fantasy. It requires a work around to make it valid. While the workaround is not unscriptural and therefore there is nothing wrong with that, you still have to add to scripture and why would you add to scripture unless you want to make your theory work? You have to assume that Christ comes to cllect us first before things get really bad, and then comes again to carry out judgement. If you'd never heard of the pre-Trib rapture you would never come to that conclusion. Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. I'll leave you with this verse. a verse for all those pre-Tribbers who think that they won't be around to find out who the antiChrist is: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

No you are. Answer these questions and don't run away from them. Do you think that God punishes the righteous? If you think that the Tribulation is a judgement of God then why are only the righteous being punished? Does God punish the righteous? Did he punish Noah and Lot or did he rescue them? Why during the Tribulation is the antiChrist punishing those who refuse to serve him by beheading them? Why does he punish believers by not allowing them to buy or sell? If you think that the Tribulation is a punishment from God then you can't know God. The Tribulation is NOT a judgement of God. If you think that it is then you must believe that the antiChrist is God, because during the Tribulation it is the antiChrist who carries out wrath against those who refuse to bow down to him. The judgement of God comes at the end of the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns and destroys the antiChrist! If you can't understand the difference between good and evil then I pity you. Christians are being punished and the sinners are rewarded - in your eyes this is a judgement of God. Christians are persecuted and beheaded for practising their faith - in your eyes this is a judgement of God. Christians refuse to take the mark of the Beast and they are punished for not taking the mark - in your eyes this is a judgement from God. Whose eyes do you really see through? So according to you, Noah and his family should have drowned but everybody else should be left alive, because God punishes only the righteous -right? So according to you Lot should have burned in Sodom but every other citizen of that city should have been spared - because God only punishes the righteous and saves the wicked. Is that right? ...and during the Great Tribulation God is punishing those who refuse to take the mark by beheading them - because God only punishes the righteous and spares those who take the mark, because God really loves it when people take the mark of the Beast and worship the Beast... but he hates righteous people who refuse to take the mark - well according to you he does! So is the Tribulation a judgement of God or not? Since when has God been in the business of punishing righteous people but sparing sinners? Give me one example from the Bible where God takes vengeance upon the righteous by destroying them but spares all the bad people! The Great Tribulation is an act of the antiChrist. God allows it to happen but then he stops it and takes revenge and judges the wicked. God's judgement is the wrath that comes afterwards, it is NOT the Tribulation itself!