Macs Son

So by logic it follows that you don't believe any of the commandments are for Christians, since they were all given to Israel? Why did Jesus say this then? Was He speaking only to Jews or both Jews and Gentiles that would be entering the kingdom of heaven through His sacrifice? Matthew 5:18-19 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Please explain so we can have an intelligent discussion. Thanks, Pat

You did read the question? Did you not? If so, how on earth did you manage to interpret the above question in context of honoring one's parent Shiloh? Please read the above in the context it was given. Let me help you a bit with what I asked. 1. I asked you what part of the 10 commandments were both for Jew and Gentile? 2. Which commandments were excluded, just the Sabbath others? Please supply Scriptural evidence that makes that clear to us. Note the below statement also has no Scriptural support and is mere supposition on your part. Why don't you use Scripture? After all it is God's truthand really the only way to get to the truth. Let's not play Clintonesque word games here shall we? The Lord said not one jot or title would pass away from the Law and those who taught others to break it were to be called least in the kingdom of heaven. This is not something to be cute with but something that needs to be understood in the light of Scripture my friend. Specifically I will ask again, which commandments should the Christian obey and which ones have been abrogated? And yes you do need to provide Scriptural exegesis just as I have. It's not a one way street. Matthew 5:18-19 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Notice the commandments do NOT pass away until heaven and earth pass away. So unless you can clearly show us from Scripture that the Sabbath, and whatever other commandments you believe were explicitly abrogated with Scriptural support for your claims, no one here should believe you.

0. That is a strawman argument. 1. When we look at the whole of what God said about the Sabbath, it is clear that the Sabbath was only given to Israel under the Mosaic Covenant. 2. There is no commandment to keep the Sabbath given to the Church in the NT. It is the only one of the ten commandments not repeated in the New Testament. With regard to your 2 arguments 1. No, it is not clear, else we would not be having this debate. I don't believe you shown anyone that it clear and that because you have not exegeted a single verse. Just throwing out a couple of non expounded verses and persona; criticisms certainly does not equal sound Biblical exegesis brother. 2. Not in the New Testament? I'm baffled as to why you think so. Was not Jesus advocating that doing good works, and no one is good except for God so necessarily good works come from God, on the Sabbath were in keeping with the Law? Mark 3:4 Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent. Why do we have both Jewish and Gentile believers going into synagogues on the Sabbath? Act 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. We also know from the NT that Gentiles as well as Jews were keeping the Sabbath in the apostolic age Act 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks. Your logical verification method by exclusion are flawed anyway? Jesus did not mention anything about homosexuality being sin. Does that mean it is not? Also neither Jesus nor the apostles mentioned anything about abortion. Does that mean that is okay too? Jesus also didn't speak of all the commandments in the sermon on the mount either. Nor did He mention all the commandments to the rich young ruler. Does that disregard the rest of them? Talk about a straw-man argument your presumption due to exclusivity is totally irrelevant even if it were true. But beyond that, however, perhaps you can find these commandments explicitly mentioned in the New Testament Exodus 20:3 (NKJV) — “You shall have no other gods before Me. Exodus 20:16 (NKJV) — “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. In Christ, Pat

Well we have ten commandments, of which the Sabbath is one, on this we are agreed. So which of the ten commandments should the church abide by and what is the Scriptural evidence of this. As good Christians are we now free to murder, steal, commit adultery as ISIS claims their religion allows. Is that what Jesus really said, don't worry about keeping those commandments? Or did He say this. Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Notice Jesus did not say those who break the commandments whill be called least but rather those who break and teach these commandments will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. We do need to consider the fact that the Lord stated that He “in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it” As far as I’m aware the Jews alone are not exclusive to the benefits of God’s creation nor is the creation of man, for whom God made the Sabbath. So certainly your conjecture really doesn’t have much context or merit given the commandment itself. Okay.... well since you consider your opinions to be the pinnacle of Biblical exegesis may I remind you that you have given us none here, my friend. Seeing as how you have already claimed the honoring of the Sabbath was integral to the 10 commandments but they weren't for Gentiles then I suppose the Gentiles are excluded from not honoring their Father and Mother, murdering, stealing, or committing adultery either. Sounds like a great recipe for hedonism. Instead of always being the critic please provide support for your arguments. I think we'd all be better served. So my followup question here is: What commandments of the ten were the Gentiles supposed to keep and, if you agree they were both for the Jew and Gentile, specifically what Scriptural evidence can you give that the Sabbath is to be excluded? Thank you, Pat[ Nice try but you did not answer the question Shiloh. When Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man did He only mean Jewish men as you explicitly stated to us? How do you rectify the verse? But where oh where is the exegesis on those verses Shiloh that diligently show they are meaningless for Gentiles? Just putting down chapter and verse is not exegesis. Didn't God say He would write the law on our hearts or was that just meant for Jews as well? I have shown you how they are related to Gentiles as well as Jews but you have not answered me nor exegeted the verses I gave you. No comment on your comment above, since it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand my friend. Every one is entitled to their opinion but not everyone is entitled to a response. In Christ, Pat

Please notice I did not ask if “Jesus, death and resurrection abrogate” “the Sabbath” but what I asked was if they abrogated, “the commandments of God”. Rightly, if everyone is agreed that the Sabbath is indeed a commandment, then one might think this is a moot point. It is not, however, since you yourself have put a qualifier on the 4th commandment to say that God intended it strictly for Jews. We probably also may want to consider Messianic Jewish Believers as well as Gentiles as part of your forthcoming exegesis. So then, while I do appreciate you providing An early opinion, we still haven’t settled on the 1rst question yet but I do see you have a post that I have not read yet, so maybe you’ve already done that. Matthew Henry, as I have indicated, like me is of the same opinion these commandments are not abrogated. You also weighed in on this as well as the others. You did, however miss my opening statement as I am not debating a Saturday Sabbath first. I think we need to see if we as Christians need to keep one of the seven days holy first. The Christian Sabbath has a long history of how it came to be on Sunday vs. Saturday but the day matters little if we don’t believe we should keep any day holy, does it? This is why my opening had this caveat: If you are telling Christians they MUST keep any certain day of the week, or that they MUST keep A day of the week as a Sabbath day, you are going beyond what the Bible says to the Christan. Again, I'm not telling anyone what to do. This thread was started by asking us what we think. I am merely trying to get to the root of what I believe the Bible has to say about us keeping the Sabbath by logically connecting Scripture in context. So we are only having a conversation based on Scripture to study the topic at hand and hopefully derive a conclusion.In Christ, Pat

Yes, I believe there is a price we pay for neglecting the Sabbath - and as the church goes so does our power to influence our culture. Almost the entire period of time between the Puritans landing at Plymouth Rock until well after we celebrated the nation's two hundred birthday the culture respected the Sabbath and most businesses were shutdown on what we used to call 'the Christian Sabbath'. Americans were taught to observe the day in their catechism and Sunday School classes but those days are over. Today the NFL is celebrated on Sunday not God's Word. Personally I think it is very sad and make n0o mistake that we arrived here by accident. In Christ, Pat

The ask was for relevancy on these questions to satisfy ourselves that we have covered all the bases, so I am open to modifying the questions to the general audience as to whether these will suffice. But again, opinions may differ on relevancy and your opinions may not be the only one in agreeing to a full frontal attack on the question at hand. I had thought we bite these off 1 or2 at a time. I certainly did not cover any support for questions 3-6 and really only covered question 1 in a fuller sense and question #2 in a partial sense (thanks to Matthew Henry). It is my belief we should cover the questions serially unless there is great objection to this method so the detail do not become obfuscated as I’ve seen on other threads. Obviously I’m open to discussion and suggestions if you or others believe there are other methods. For now I will only answer your rebuttals to questions 1 and 2 but I will give justification as to why I think it’s a good idea to also cover questions 3-6. Again I think it best to target a full answer to question 1 before proceeding too much further down the line. My 2nd question was . 2 Did Jesus; death and resurrection abrograte the commandments of God & if so what are the verses that support this? You answered Please notice I did not ask if “Jesus, death and resurrection abrogate” “the Sabbath” but what I asked was if they abrogated, “the commandments of God”. Rightly, if everyone is agreed that the Sabbath is indeed a commandment, then one might think this is a moot point. It is not, however, since you yourself have put a qualifier on the 4th commandment to say that God intended it strictly for Jews. We probably also may want to consider Messianic Jewish Believers as well as Gentiles as part of your forthcoming exegesis. So then, while I do appreciate you providing An early opinion, we still haven’t settled on the 1rst question yet but I do see you have a post that I have not read yet, so maybe you’ve already done that. Matthew Henry, as I have indicated, like me is of the same opinion these commandments are not abrogated. You also weighed in on this as well as the others. You did, however miss my opening statement as I am not debating a Saturday Sabbath first. I think we need to see if we as Christians need to keep one of the seven days holy first. The Christian Sabbath has a long history of how it came to be on Sunday vs. Saturday but the day matters little if we don’t believe we should keep any day holy, does it? This is why my opening had this caveat: After reading Matthew Henry’s commentary you stated: So really Macs son, you need to be a little more careful in picking your sources. Again, if you read my previous opening you would understand that I’m not focused on what day of the week or the history behind how the Christian Sabbath came to be just yet. It’s irrelevant if we don’t believe a day set aside for the Lord matters. I myself set aside Sunday and not Saturday but I have worshipped with Messianic believers who set aside Saturday. The history behind this is complex but will only obfuscate whether we celebrate a so called “Christian Sabbath” or the Sabbath Day specified by the 4th commandment. As far as America not celebrating a Christian Sabbath why did most states have a ban on work for Sunday. These were called blue laws in my neck of the woods. In Christ, Pat

Good morning Shiloh, Well you might say “of course” but realize that the question is not only directed solely at you Shiloh. There may be others that may disagree that desire to weigh in. That said I am glad that we are at least in agreement that there are not only 9 commandments but 10 though I recently just heard a pastor say the 4th commandment is no longer a commandment, basing that off a popular Christian author whom I’ll not name; at least until I’ve had a chance to verify what he said was true of his book. But I do have a few comments off the top of my head related to the 2nd part of your statement where you said (I paraphrase) … it is the only one of the ten commandment that was exclusive to Israel, which you follow up with: “when you study out everything that the Bible says about the Sabbath Relative to your unsubstantiated conjecture that the commandment was only made for Israel. 1. We do need to consider the fact that the Lord stated that He “in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it” As far as I’m aware the Jews alone are not exclusive to the benefits of God’s creation nor is the creation of man, for whom God made the Sabbath. So certainly your conjecture really doesn’t have much context or merit given the commandment itself. 2. As far as “the Sabbath being made for man”, maybe Jesus should have further qualified that and said “Israeli men”, eh? I think not. God created the 7th day for man and since He made us in His image He rested His works in us that we might care for His creation, which made the 6th day “very good”. The Sabbath, in its essence, is therefore for man; who is supposed to reflect the glory of God, and emulate Him. God created everything and gave dominion over all His works to man in six days and rested His governance and supervisional caring into man. We therefore were supposed to continue working and caring for His world as good stewards but remember the day of rest that we should set a day aside for our Creator and Lord. To me the emulation of God is common to man not to Israel, although as Jesus said,” salvation is of the Jews”, for it was given to them first and was by the bloodline of David. 3. Shiloh can you actually demonstrate from the Bible to us, the inquisitive, that the 4th commandment “was ONLY given to Israel”, which you qualify without support? All kidding aside I am interested, as I’m sure others are, in your exegesis but so sorry if we don’t just take your word for it Shiloh, as this is not how debate works. Have a great morning In Christ, Pat

A SUGGESTION I believe answering the following questions may help us to get down to crush depth without imploding our boat. I think the great macro question on the table for us to answer here is as follows: Is the Sabbath still relevant to the Christian? To do so we should first consider the following micro questions and derive our answers and discuss with much thought, prayer and Scriptural evidences 1. Is the Sabbath still part of the 10 commandments? 2. Did Jesus; death and resurrection abrograte the commandments of God & if so what are the verses that support this? 3. What was the early view of Christians and the Sabbath 4. What was the Reformational view of the Sabbath? 5. When did keeping a Day holy unto the Lord become irrelevant from the pulpit 6. When did the Sabbath become irrelevant in America? We can certainly discuss later whether the Christian Sabbath should be Saturday or Sunday but I believe at this point that is a secondary argument that is probably at least 1800 years old. It doesn’t really matter if Christians do not believe we should keep a Day holy and honoring unto the Lord, resting from our own works and resting in Him. So let our first task be to understand the relevancy of the Sabbath Day even if we disagree on what day that truly is; for after we achieved depth on this we can tackle whether that is Saturday or Sunday or if the day really matters to the Lord or not. Unto Question #1 Is the Sabbath still part of the 10 commandments? Well, since I think we all would agree that the Sabbath in integral to the 10 commandments, as they are listed as number 4 in the hierarchy of the ten, I would first ask are the 10 commandments still relevant to the Christian? Then we can establish whether Christ abrogated the Sabbath. So consider this #1a if you will. My humble opinion is they are. Why do I say this? For one Jesus taught us the relevancy of God’s higher law, which far exceeded what the Pharisees were teaching the people, and in doing so He touched on many of the ten commandments. He never spoke of abrogating or setting aside a single one so I don’t think it’s okay that we set them aside as a some kind of ancient relic either. In order to do that we would need Scriptural proof and, quite frankly, no one on this thread has shown us any. Well Jesus taught us so inferring it and integrating the commandments within the sermon on the mount. He also stated this: Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. I’ve certainly exegeted this one before but perhaps this is better coming from an established voice from the past that many of us have in their libraries. So I will defer to Matthew Henry, the early American puritan. He breaks the passage down as thus: 1. He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament; Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets. (1.) "Let not the pious Jews, who have an affection for the law and the prophets, fear that I come to destroy them.' Let them be not prejudiced against Christ and his doctrine, from a jealousy that this kingdom he came to set up, would derogate from the honour of the Scriptures, which they had embraced as coming from God, and of which they had experienced the power and purity; no, let them be satisfied that Christ has no ill design upon the law and the prophets. "Let not the profane Jews, who have a disaffection to the law and the prophets, and are weary of that yoke, hope that I am come to destroy them.' Let not carnal libertines imagine that the Messiah is come to discharge them from the obligation of divine precepts and yet to secure to them divine promises, to make the happy and yet to give them leave to live as they list. Christ commands nothing now which was forbidden either by the law of nature or the moral law, nor forbids any thing which those laws had enjoined; it is a great mistake to think he does, and he here takes care to rectify the mistake; I am not come to destroy. The Saviour of souls is the destroyer of nothing but the works of the devil, of nothing that comes from God, much less of those excellent dictates which we have from Moses and the prophets. No, he came to fulfil them. That is, [1.] To obey the commands of the law, for he was made under the law, Gal. 4:4. He in all respects yielded obedience to the law, honoured his parents, sanctified the Sabbath, prayed, gave alms, and did that which never any one else did, obeyed perfectly, and never broke the law in any thing. [2.] To make good the promises of the law, and the predictions of the prophets, which did all bear witness to him. The covenant of grace is, for substance, the same now that it was then, and Christ the Mediator of it. [3.] To answer the types of the law; thus he did not make void, but make good, the ceremonial law, and manifested himself to be the Substance of all those shadows. [4.] To fill up the defects of it, and so to complete and perfect it. Thus the word pleµroµsai properly signifies. If we consider the law as a vessel that had some water in it before, he did not come to pour out the water, but to fill the vessel up to the brim; or, as a picture that is first rough-drawn, displays some outlines only of the piece intended, which are afterwards filled up; so Christ made an improvement of the law and the prophets by his additions and explications. [5.] To carry on the same design; the Christian institutes are so far from thwarting and contradicting that which was the main design of the Jewish religion, that they promote it to the highest degree. The gospel is the time of reformation (Heb. 9:10), not the repeal of the law, but the amendment of it, and, consequently, its establishment. 2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (v. 18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;' for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura-The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law. 3. He gives it in charge to his disciples, carefully to preserve the law, and shows them the danger of the neglect and contempt of it (v. 19)]; Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least commandments of the law of Moses, much more any of the greater, as the Pharisees did, who neglected the weightier matters of the law, and shall teach men so as they did, who made void the commandment of God with their traditions (ch. 15:3), he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Though the Pharisees be cried up for such teachers as should be, they shall not be employed as teachers in Christ's kingdom; but whosoever shall do and teach them, as Christ's disciples would, and thereby prove themselves better friends to the Old Testament than the Pharisees were, they, though despised by men, shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Note, (1.) Among the commands of God there are some less than others; none absolutely little, but comparatively so. The Jews reckon the least of the commandments of the law to be that of the bird's nest (Deu. 22:6, 7); yet even that had a significance and an intention very great and considerable. (2.) It is a dangerous thing, in doctrine or practice, to disannul the least of God's commands; to break them, that is, to go about either to contract the extent, or weaken the obligation of them; whoever does so, will find it is at his peril. Thus to vacate any of the ten commandments, is too bold a stroke for the jealous God to pass by. it is something more than transgressing the law, it is making void the law, Ps. 119:126. (3.) That the further such corruptions as they spread, the worse they are. It is impudence enough to break the command, but is a greater degree of it to teach men so. This plainly refers to those who at this time sat in Moses' seat, and by their comments corrupted and perverted the text. Opinions that tend to the destruction of serious godliness and the vitals of religion, by corrupt glosses on the scripture, are bad when they are held, but worse when they are propagated and taught, as the word of God. He that does so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, in the kingdom of glory; he shall never come thither, but be eternally excluded; or, rather, in the kingdom of the gospel-church. He is so far from deserving the dignity of a teacher in it, that he shall not so much as be accounted a member of it. The prophet that teaches these lies shall be the tail in that kingdom (Isa. 9:15); when truth shall appear in its own evidence, such corrupt teachers, though cried up as the Pharisees, shall be of no account with the wise and good. Nothing makes ministers more contemptible and base than corrupting the law, Mal. 2:8, 11. Those who extenuate and encourage sin, and discountenance and put contempt upon strictness in religion and serious devotion, are the dregs of the church. But, on the other hand, Those are truly honourable, and of great account in the church of Christ, who lay out themselves by their life and doctrine to promote the purity and strictness of practical religion; who both do and teach that which is good; for those who do not as they teach, pull down with one hand what they build up with the other, and give themselves the lie, and tempt men to think that all religion is a delusion; but those who speak from experience, who live up to what they preach, are truly great; they honour God, and God will honour them (1 Sa. 2:30), and hereafter they shall shine as the stars in the kingdom of our Father. Does this answer question 1a? In Christ, Pat

Hi Shiloh,Please remember we are having a conversation, hopefully about what Scripture has to say about the Sabbath and if it is relevant or not. My position on this as a Christian is that I want to obey God's Word, not because I am living to the law but because I love Christ and because I want to worship the Father in Spirit and Truth. If you had been able to show me that the Bible has abrogated the 4th commandment and it is no longer relevant, with Scriptural exegesis, I would change my position in a heartbeat; for this is what I did in affirming the relevance of the Sabbath after being a Christian for many years after I found substantial evidence for it. Anyway all I'm stating here is that we need a Scriptural dialog and as Christians we ought to be able to have one that is focused on the facts. Amen? Now ith regard to your accusation that I am spreading a false dichotomy let's explore the 4th commandment First the lead in to the Lord's commandment concerning the Sabbath is that He shows mercy to those who love Him AND keep His commandments. I don't think as Christians we should gloss over that or change the subject; not because we can ever earn our salvation but because it has already been won for us by the one we love. I obeyed my mother and father not because I feared being thrown out of the house but because I knew they loved me and ultimately were after my good. In short I obeyed them because I loved them so I don't believe it's an accident that the Sabbath commandment falls between Honoring God's name, our heavenly Father, and Honoring our earthly father and mother Exodus 20:6-11 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. Please see the underlined portion Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you. So you see I am not spreading a false dichotomy but merely quoting Scripture. It was the Lord Himself who told us the reason for the commandment and it is just as I had stated ["The difference in Sabbath vs. Sabbaths is that the first Sabbath in the ten commandments was not a foreshadowing of Christ but a reminder of when the Lord rested from creation."] I have no right to tell people what the Bible says yet I hear now pastors preach from the pulpit that the Sabbath has been abrogated and there are only 9 commandments not ten, with very little Scriptural backing? I've seen pastors go off to win a job at the gym instead of preaching on Sunday and what has happened to America in the last 3 or 4 decades has been decadently appalling. More Christians honor football these days than taking a day to rest in the Lord. Historically America had blue laws because it was generally accepted that the Sabbath be not profaned. Those days are bygone and now the Church itself no longer sets a day to rest in God? Yet some of the same preachers get angry when people show up late for their sermon. Shouldn't they expect that seeing they have set aside the day of worshipping the Lord? Now I could go off ranting about false teaching, twisting Scripture, etc, etc, etc but I'd just rather discuss the facts and derive at a Scriptural conclusion instead of continuing in adhominum attacks, philosophical sophistry, or mandate by popular vote. Let's remember that when Israel turned away from the Lord they did so with a vast majority of adherents who though worshipping Baal was a good idea. I don't have much time this morning but as far as my being off base let's consider some very prominent Christians from our heritage. Not that we should rest on what any man has to say about Scripture but to illustrate how far we have digressed and what is happening to the Church of God in order to be aware of it so we can have a true discussion on the Scriptures without the straw man perceptions that become so prevalent in our debates. The new covenant does not abrogate that law, but puts it into the heart of every Christian. Jamieson. From Charles Spurgeon Catechism Which is the fourth commandment? A The fourth commandment is, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor they cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. What is required in the fourth commandment? A The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12). How is the Sabbath to be sanctified? The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days (Le 23:3), and spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship (Ps 92:1,2 Isa 58:13,14), except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and mercy (Mt 12:11,12). There are, of course, many more writers from the past that we esteem that were proponents of honoring a Sabbath day but I'm out of time this morning. I will post these too but even moreso I also want to more fully explore the Scriptures. There is much to gain by discussing this. May the Lord Bless, Pat

Hi Coheir, I'm just catching up here. Yes, I believe the Jews had both the commandments and ordinances; the ordinances being observing the Day of Atonement, the Passover, circumcising on the 8th day, etc. The ordinances and customs merely foreshadowed Christ and Paul taught that as well, as I posted this passage before. Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. So the things that pointed to Christ are done away with; Christ rose on the 8th day in triumphant resurrection first fruits of the newness of body we too shall inherit when He comes to raise us; the atonement was paid on His cross; We have passed over from death to life - the curse has turned to blessing; all these ordinaces, two of which were Sabbaths are no longer needed. Now the Lord proclaimed that the Day of Atonement, which was only a foreshadowing to Christ, was forever. Leviticus 16:31 “It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. But we as Christians remember this day as the Lord's Crucifixion - Good Friday whereas the Jews observe the foreshadowing of Christ in Yom Kippur. The difference in Sabbath vs. Sabbaths is that the first Sabbath in the ten commandments was not a foreshadowing of Christ but a reminder of when the Lord rested from creation. The commandments; Thou shall not take the Lord thy God's Name in vain, honor thy father and mother, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not murder I simply do not believe were ever done away with but that God wrote them in our heart. Jeremiah 31:31-33 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Now Matthew Henry writes of this ... for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit as formerly it was written in the tables of stone. God writes his law in the hearts of all believers, makes it ready and familiar to them, at hand when they have occasion to use it, as that which is written in the heart, Prov. 3:3. He makes them in care to observe it, for that which we are solicitous about is said to lie near our hearts. He works in them a disposition to obedience, a conformity of thought and affection to the rules of the divine law, as that of the copy to the original. This is here promised, and ought to be prayed for, that our duty may be done conscientiously and with delight Jesus also said: Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. And John 1John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. So I think the crux of this really comes down to is this: Is the commandment to keep the Sabbath the only commandment to be excluded from the ten commandments, so that we only have 9? That to me is a very big question and one that I believe we need to totally understand in the light of Scripture. May God Bless, Pat

Hi again Belle, I just responded to you on another thread and will add this to my payers for you. There is great reason for the body of believers here to pray for you. I would just encourage you that you should not feel alone in your struggle for if you are abiding in Christ then be assured He is in your struggles. I am glad these forum Christians are praying for you, that is the bond of Christian love for one another, but you should also confide with others in your church because that physical community of saints can and should help you and be a source of collective strength to you. With drugs you certainly are right not to enable their disease and their poor life choices. Sin's power is to enslave us towards ungodly things and I have seen first hand, with respect to drugs and alcohol, things I believed people would never do. It is the ruin of sin on steroids, that will continue to corrupt the beautiful mind, heart and soul that God initially created. The devil comes to steal and destroy but remember Christ has overcome all enemies and frustrated the will of the evil one and so you too, through faith in Christ, shall be able to overcome all evil adversity launched against you. John 10:10 “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. Isaiah 54:17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me,” Says the LORD. Again sister rely on the Lord for every decision, protecting your family as a mother, and being faithful and true to look to Him and His Word in following the right path for you and your children. There is still hope God could turn it all around so I would encourage you to wait on the Lord. May God Bless you, Pat

Setting our minds on the things above, rather than the things of earth, looks to me exactly like the love of the Father for Christ, and the love of Christ for the Church and for the lost. Romans 15:6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Corinthians 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1Corinthians 2:16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. Philippians 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 1Peter 1:13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; In Christ, Pat

Dear Other One, Accusing someone of twisting Scripture is a very serious accusation and you should at least have the decency to back it up, which you have not. I consider that as a baseless attack. Now when I jumped into this thread I sincerely thought we were going to have a discussion on exegeting the Scriptures with regard to the Sabbath Day. Now, as I have stated before, initially I believed something entirely different with regard to the Sabbath but, through the years, as I have studied it I have come to my current position on it and my intention was to only show why I believe what I do, for that was the original query of the author of this thread. Now if someone convinces me from Scripture I am in error I would gladly accept it because I base my belief of Scripture and not men. So I do not agree with your persistent accusation that I am twisting Scripture. Now on to what I really said: I never said the Lord was NOT doing work on the Sabbath. What I did say was that He was doing "the work of the Lord", which I agree we "should do on the Sabbath" Contrary to profaning the Sabbath it glorifies the "Lord of the Sabbath", which is what we are supposed to do. My understanding is that the body was not to do servile work on the Sabbath - Jesus was certainly NOT doing that. So you misunderstand me. Hopefully we have cleared that up and you will no longer confuse a misunderstanding of what I was saying for the grievous sin of twisting the Scriptures. May God reign in helping us to reign in our words brother, Pat I'm leaving on a three week vacation...... if you really want to discuss this further, see me in three weeks or so. Hi Brother Other one, Well I hope you and your family have a fine vacation. I was merely trying to clear up your confusion over my statement and put us back on better footing. May the Lord Bless, Pat

Brother Shiloh, Did the Apostles observe the Sabbath? Did Paul observe the Sabbath? There does appear to be evidence that they did in the Scriptures - is there any evidence they did not? Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. Act 17:1-3 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ." Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks. You may say these are merely inferences but to that end and your responsibility to exegete the counter position; what then are the Scriptures that point to its abolition? In Christ, Pat

No, you can't. I have not made any claims that I need to support with Scripture. All I am saying is that you have not supported your claims with Scripture that addresses your arguments. You offered Scripture, but it is Scripture that you have misapplied to issues they were not intended to address. Well, since I have not claimed the Lord abolished it, I guess it follows that I don't have to support a statement I never made. How about you actually address what I have said instead of trying to refute arguments I never raised. Think you can manage that? Once again, I don't need to do that since my argument isn't that the Sabbath was abolished. My argument is that the Church is not required to keep the Sabbath. So far, and I have asked you several times for this, you have not yet provided ONE verse of Scripture that tells us that the Church is required to keep the Sabbath day. So far you have danced around and ignored the issue I raised because you know you can't provide it and can't admit it. So it is easier to assign values to me that I didn't express instead of just addressing what I actually said. Brother Shiloh,Neither have you, speaking of dancing, and as I previously mentioned, provided a single verse to me that the Sabbath was abolished. I'm all ears. In Christ, Pat

Dear Other One, Accusing someone of twisting Scripture is a very serious accusation and you should at least have the decency to back it up, which you have not. I consider that as a baseless attack. Now when I jumped into this thread I sincerely thought we were going to have a discussion on exegeting the Scriptures with regard to the Sabbath Day. Now, as I have stated before, initially I believed something entirely different with regard to the Sabbath but, through the years, as I have studied it I have come to my current position on it and my intention was to only show why I believe what I do, for that was the original query of the author of this thread. Now if someone convinces me from Scripture I am in error I would gladly accept it because I base my belief of Scripture and not men. So I do not agree with your persistent accusation that I am twisting Scripture. Now on to what I really said: I never said the Lord was NOT doing work on the Sabbath. What I did say was that He was doing "the work of the Lord", which I agree we "should do on the Sabbath" Contrary to profaning the Sabbath it glorifies the "Lord of the Sabbath", which is what we are supposed to do. My understanding is that the body was not to do servile work on the Sabbath - Jesus was certainly NOT doing that. So you misunderstand me. Hopefully we have cleared that up and you will no longer confuse a misunderstanding of what I was saying for the grievous sin of twisting the Scriptures. May God reign in helping us to reign in our words brother, Pat

Hi once more Shiloh, Who is not addressing your questions? You asked me to show you where the military were exempted, mocked my first example to you, so then I gave you another; which you simply ignored and chose not to answer. You didn't give any examples of the military being exempt from the Sabbath. You provided an example of David and his men (who were fugitives not an army) who took the bread from the tabernacle while running from Saul. That has nothing to do with the military being exempt from the Sabbath. Jesus used that example to defend His disciples from the accusation that they were violating the Sabbath when they weren't; they were violating rabbinical rules. I didn't mock your answer. I refuted it. Your comparison is an attempt to force a passage to address what it wasn't meant to address. Your second example didn't need a response because it was the Lord who fought for Israel. There is nothing in the OT about the Church age. So there cannot be any OT passages that say that the Sabbath is for the Church or believers in Jesus. Gentiles who choose to join themselves to the Jewish nation are bound to observe the Sabbath Day, according to the law. It says no such thing in reference to the Church. You are taking "Gentile" and super-imposing "Church" onto that word. It is talking about Gentiles who choose to embrace the covenant. The Scriptures nowhere say that Gentiles are bound to Sabbath observance like Israel was. You are, again, grasping at straws. The Bible treats the Sabbath day differently. There is no commandment to the Church to keep the Sabbath day. All of the other 10 commandments are repeated as commandments to the Church. The Sabbath day is never commanded as NT observance, even once. You are relying on OT passages that have nothing to do with the Church or Church age to impose an observance that is not required for Christians. Well you need to keep studying, because your exegesis is way off kilter. I have responded to the texts where I felt I needed to respond. The fact is that you STILL have not provided ONE text that says that the Church is expected to keep the Sabbath. Your argument remains unsupported at this point. Shiloh, I could say the same thing to you. You have not supported with any text to convince me that the Lord abolished it, have you? Since I only care about what the Word of God establishes and not men, please give me an exegesis on why the Lord Jesus, in speaking with His disciples on future tribulation, speak of the Sabbath in the future (post gospel going out throughout the earth) if He knew He was abolishing it? Matthew 24:13-22 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. In Christ, Pat

I already answered this in a previous post #48 point -4. 4. "Therefore do not let anyone judge you … with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ" (Colossians 2:16-17). Hope the references help brotherIn Christ, Pat So for those who are accusing me of twisting the Scriptures it follows that they also probably think Jamieson, Fausset & Brown and Charles Spurgeon did too. Amazing!

Hi Other one,Again you miss the point that Jesus was performing the priestly function, as I've mentioned before. He is quite clear that priests performing the work of God are exempt from working because the work itself is the work of God and not servile work. In Christ, Pat Yes you have stated that before, and I still say that you are twisting that scripture with you mind to make it something that it's not. The Jews told him that he was wrong for working on the Sabbath and he said that he was working and the Father was too. He didn't tell them that they were wrong and he was doing something different, he admitted to the Jews that he was actually working on the Sabbath. Now you can rationalize that away any way you want to to settle that in your mind, but the Word plainly says that he was working on the Sabbath. He agreed with the Jews that he was doing what they accused him of. I am NOT twisting Scripture!What does "perpetual" mean to you?

Hi once more Shiloh, Who is not addressing your questions? You asked me to show you where the military were exempted, mocked my first example to you, so then I gave you another; which you simply ignored and chose not to answer. I also provided much evidence from Scripture that God not only stated that the Sabbath observance was "perpetual", but it is integral to the 10 commandments. Also the Scriptures even infer that Gentiles are to partake in the Sabbath Worship just as the Jews were. That was just in case someone thinks "perpetual" is only for Jews. Of course few would hardly argue that refraining from murder, stealing, committing adultery and the other commandments is mere poppycock, so why exactly are you singling out the Sabbath again? I want to make it perfectly clear that I absolutely have nothing to gain here by telling everyone why the Scriptures have convinced me of this. In fact I did not always believe this as a Christian until I studied this more deeply than I previously did. I also don't expect to convince others of my opinion but I do pray that people will at least search the Scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to convince them of His truth. If God is telling you something different than so be it. So this is a matter of conscience nor some trivial debate for me. Again, I'm simply trying to state what I believe the Scriptures say, which is what we were asked to do regarding our understanding of the Sabbath. I'm simply trying to follow Scripture here myself and always believe God can provide me or anyone else with His light of understanding if we ask for it. However, that said I certainly don't believe you have proved or given substantive arguments to the contrary that the exegesis of these Scriptures are unfounded on my part. Not just for Jews but for Gentiles Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.” Do not let the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; nor let the eunuch say,"Here I am, a dry tree." For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, and hold fast My covenant, Even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant— even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations." Jesus quotes the last verse of this passage from Isaiah Himself when He threw the moneychangers out of the temple, the temple being a foreshadow of the temple, which is Jesus Himself. I end on an exhortation. Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. In Christ, Pat

Hi Other one,Again you miss the point that Jesus was performing the priestly function, as I've mentioned before. He is quite clear that priests performing the work of God are exempt from working because the work itself is the work of God and not servile work. In Christ, Pat

I don't really see how that answers my question. In Matthew 12 Jesus was responding to a complaint that His disciples were violating what really amounted to extra-biblical rules about the Sabbath. They were not violating the biblical edict of the Sabbath. So your comparison isn't really valid. If the Sabbath is required, then it is required absolutely and there are no exceptions. God doesn't have a sliding scale for disobedience. In Matt. 12:5 Jesus was talking about people who were ministering in the temple. That cannot apply to policemen or firemen or doctors. Hi Shiloh, Jesus was using the example of David, and the youth under his military arm, why it was permissible in eating the shewbread. Normally this would have not been permissible. His apostles were gleaning the grain with their hands for substantive nourishment as they followed our Lord Jesus in His ministry work. So Jesus was comparing His apostles to an army, an army of the Lord to be exact. In Christ, Pat LOL, Yeah you are really reaching on that one, Mac. Jesus was addressing an extra-biblical issue that the Pharisees had imposed on the people. My point is that the disciples were not violating the Sabbath, they were violating man-made rules imposed by the religious leaders. So your position that it is permissible to violate the Sabbath in some cases is not supported by that text. The root of the problem is that you haven't even supported the view that the Church is required by God to keep the Sabbath Day, in the first place. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist? Hi Shiloh, Being "servile work," on the Sabbath it was prohibited on the sabbath day and was regarded as sinful but since you do not accept this you merely have to go to the Battle of Jericho where God's army marched around the city for seven days. On the seventh day the walls fell and they took the city. In Christ, Pat No, I am not a 7th Day Adventist I am a Christian first and a Baptist 2nd

Hi Terraricca,The simple answer is I'm doing no such thing. I'm advocating for keeping the Sabbath Holy, which was God's perpetual ordinance. If you read my preceding posts you will see that doing the Lord's work certainly is keeping the Sabbath holy and not profaning it. I am not advocating for the skin deep letter of the law the Pharisees followed but something that is indeed pleasing to the Lord, who said the Sabbath was a perpetual covenant and one of the ten commandments. Exodus 31:16 ‘Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. I don't think they'd be quite as much kickback on this if we were talking about the things we are told to avoid within the ten commandments as Christians; such as avoiding idolatry, taking the Lord's Name in vain, stealing, coveting, murdering, bearing false witness, or committing adultery. These avoidances are integral to the ten commandments and yet we don't hear much argument out there on dismissing them in our Christian walk. Likewise, on the positives side of His commandments I never hear that we shouldn't honor our father and mother. So just why is it apropos not to keep the Sabbath holy? When did Jesus ever say not to? He did and so did the apostles with Him and those who were taught by those apostles. Quite frankly I don't get why there is opposition to this within Christian ranks. In Christ, Pat

I don't really see how that answers my question. In Matthew 12 Jesus was responding to a complaint that His disciples were violating what really amounted to extra-biblical rules about the Sabbath. They were not violating the biblical edict of the Sabbath. So your comparison isn't really valid. If the Sabbath is required, then it is required absolutely and there are no exceptions. God doesn't have a sliding scale for disobedience. In Matt. 12:5 Jesus was talking about people who were ministering in the temple. That cannot apply to policemen or firemen or doctors. Hi Shiloh, Jesus was using the example of David, and the youth under his military arm, why it was permissible in eating the shewbread. Normally this would have not been permissible. His apostles were gleaning the grain with their hands for substantive nourishment as they followed our Lord Jesus in His ministry work. So Jesus was comparing His apostles to an army, an army of the Lord to be exact. In Christ, Pat