Cross Reference

Cross Reference, on 26 Jun 2014 - 10:25 AM, said: Yes, I do, don't I? Have you found any violation in my understanding the might contradict my believing I am saved by the grace of God upon placing my faith in Him?. . . That is truth and __ more that Paul speaks of as going far beyond the initial salvation of any individual, should they allow themselves come to understand it. Great is righteousness of any man. His prayers avail much when offered up to the throne of Grace! AMEN!! Absolutely!! Exactly!! Oh, but he did __ and four thousand years or until "the fullness of Time God could send His Son" to get things back on track and get everything "summed up in Him", as God purposes things to finish out. And through man was it to be so that the "whole world would be full of His Glory"__ Jesus being the first of the "Many sons brought unto glory", all one with God, who will accomplish it. Halleuyah to the King of Glory! Praise His Name forever!!!

nd might I add, there was no plan "B". Ah, Yes, No plan "B". I agree. However, can't we agree God a had a plan, ready to roll out, just in case Adam failed?

Why? God wants to known as Father because He is the Father of all born again. Jesus called Him Father. In your family, you are supposed to be as He is with regards to your children. That is elementary 101 teaching. And you have never considered anything beyond that as the reason??? Amazing!! Had they eaten, Adam and Eve would have been as God Himself living forever in sin and procreating children who could never be redeemed. In short the universe would have "exploded". Think about all such ramifications before having any argument with me. Now, lets extend this thinking to Jesus had He failed in His temptation. Where would we be had He failed?? Who could have repaired the damage that would have required someone bigger than God??!! Redeemed us??!! Perhaps a even a little stretching of the mind might help clear up some misundertandings we have. Try it. I've been there. Lets see what you come up with. The Bible. Did He not grow in stature and wisdom? Did He not learn obedience? The Bible. The Jewish tradition of things. Shame of you. I wonder what would have happened had God allowed Jesus to be tempted at that age __ maybe even rule the world? Is age now the criteria? make the difference? He was only a couple of days old by that standard __ and he was a baby with regards to obedience. You really don't want to argue with that, do you? Perhaps I should consider that an insult, personal attack, maybe? You profess to know the Bible. You would never prove it by what you just wrote. No speculation or conjecture on my end. The Bible holds the info for all to understand who want to know God.

misrepresentation |ˌmisreprizenˈtāSHn| noun the action or offence of giving a false or misleading account of the nature of something:

Why, when Adam, had he submitted to the "cross principle God was after from him", would have been that Divine personality we know as Jesus but who would not have had to suffer the physical cross for the sins of the world?? What is repulsive about that? . . . or, am I allowed to ask? How could you really expect Adam to have divine anything when he didn't even know good from evil and the only way we know that he could get that knowledge was to defy God. You are getting really borderline with the Gnostic teaching and even close to luciferian teaching that albert pike and manley hall wrote about Defy God?? Is that the way your children learned, by defying you?? And what would your punishment have been? In the case of Adam, there were no options. But, why did God have to kick him out of the garden? As with any father grooming his son, obedience to his commands is the initial way of beginning the program of child raising, is it not? Even Jesus went that way until He was 30 yrs old. If you are a father, you should know that. If not, when did you put your toddler behind the wheel?

Doctrine? But whose when explained?

Why, when Adam, had he submitted to the "cross principle God was after from him", would have been that Divine personality we know as Jesus but who would not have had to suffer the physical cross for the sins of the world?? What is repulsive about that? . . . or, am I allowed to ask?

I believe it is mostly a matter of perspective that separates us because I don't have a doctrinal "bent". I was taught a long time ago that for us to learn anything from what is written, we must first let it say what it says. I believe in letting the Scriptures say what they say. That method has aided my understanding as no other could possibly do. I highly recommend the procedure. If one is a dispensationlist, a cessationist [anti-Pentecostal], a lapsarian, one who believes God decreed everything, and in general, one who is of TULIP persuasion, we will have issues. Example: When I wrote, Adam only interrupted God's plan by his transgression, that Jesus brought reconciliation to, that is exactly what He did __regardless of how you wish to distort it. Do you really want to argue that out?

Some learned men believe Solomon wrote the book.

Sorry, "very good" doesn't say all that. That understanding came from a biased opinion purposed to lead away from the full intent of God set in Himself that necessitated the creation of man. In other words, man is necessary in His plan.. Sorry Bro., but all that is just religious jargon. Nor was it lost in Adam. Better stated: All the original intent by God in Adam was only interrupted by his sin. Here, you have it correct to affirm my last. But we certainly know by Jesus Christ what it is like, don't we??

As the "Son of man", Jesus later reveals to us: God had, from before the foundation of the earth, purposed in Adam a Divine human habitation for Himself with Jesus, "The Word", as the "Head" of this habitation of sons, born of Him, to rule and reign throughout all His creation. Though, initially by procreation was the means by which, this vast family of Divine sons was purposed, Adam never altered God's will that, by procreation, he still birthed them into existence, however, they now needed to be redeemed because they were born in sin. Enter, by sinless birth, Jesus, God's consummate Son, 4000 yrs later. "I have not come to arouse and invite and call the righteous, . . ." [just redeem them] Luke 5:32 (AMP) Speaking of Jesus we have this by Paul: "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." ". . . . . . and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." All of that was purposed for Adam to perform within his heart in overcoming "vanity"! "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name . . . . . ". There is no doubt in my mind that, had Adam not transgressed and fulfilled God's original intention, making redemption totally unnecessary, his name would have been changed to "Jesus", The Word incarnated into created Flesh by eating of the tree of Life... ". . . that every knee would bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;" Adam would have been the "human flesh" that defeated Satan. Mark 13:26 Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV) Hebrews 2:10 (KJV) John 12:28 (KJV) Philippians 2:9 (KJV) Philippians 2:10 (KJV)

That would be conjecture. I deal with what is plainly stated in Scripture. Being as is not is. As one of us is used in comparison meaning like. Please stop redirecting with questions. I will ignore them. Great! Then you should be able make the comparison with Jesus Christ because He was/is the SECOND ADAM! What He became was intended for the FIRST ADAM! So conjecture it isn't!

What did God have in mind by doing so?

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Genesis 3:22-23 (KJV) What do think the consequences would have been had Adam eaten of the tree of Life before he transgressed? After he transgressed?

Jesus learned? But was sent by the Father. Whom the Father revealed all things to as Lord? Heb. 5:7-9 Who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who is able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His Godly fear, though He was a Son, He learned obedience (faith which obeys God's will) by the things that He suffered. And having been perfected (completed) He became the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him,---NKJV + the complete Wordstudy Dictionary NT 1 Peter 1:6-9 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of you faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it be tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith---the salvation of your souls. There is no doubt that our faith is tested and tried. This is especially true of Jesus at the beginning of His ministry and at the end of it. And it is those whose faith endures to the end that shall be saved. Our faith is an ongrowing process from when we are first born again till our new bodies are given us. But from the time the Holy Spirit cries Daddy in our hearts we know that God has sealed us for eternity. This seems to be more experiential than doctrinal. It comes as we learn to walk in obedience to His Holy Spirit of love, and we learn to allow Christ in us to express His love and forgiveness. Now, I really didn't understand much of what Cross Reference was saying. But I did agree with most of what others said. I hope that Cross Reference is not fishing for specific answers and ATTEMPTING TO TEACHING IN THE STYLE OF SOCRATES. It is not allowed that people teach here, but rather we discuss and exchange ideas. Only Staff can teach. I have completely lost track of the question(s) and am totally confused. Endless questions that seem to take us nowhere is , well, tedious. Some of us don't have the patience for this sort of thing. Jesus did nothing and said nothing but what the Father gave for Him to do or say. He obeyed perfectly while in the flesh as perfect Man. At times He learned to obey at great cost, especially at the cross. He did not yield to the temptations of satan in the areas of the world, the flesh, and worshipping/obeying the devil. Jesus remained lowly and submissive to His Father to accomplish His will and purpose. Yes, He is our example in overcoming. But more than that, He did it perfectly because mankind is unable to do anything perfectly. Even with Christ in us and the Holy Spirit guiding us, we remain imperfect. And any imperfection is sin. The just shall live by their faith. Christ justified us at the Cross by our faith, and we continue to live the Christian life by that same jusifying faith, just as the old testament saints believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Gen. 15:6, Romans 4, 16, 21-22, 5:9 We overcome by our faith in the character of our God of the Bible who stands behind His Word. We overcome by the Blood of the Cross and our testamonies. Jesus received thirty years of preparation before being sent into the world as God's consummate Son.. Lets not forget that little thing. . .

Yes, I believe David was a man that pursued after the heart of God. So he was after God's own heart and Christ's promised righteousness. Here's the pursuit in his own words: There's a lot more but it still all points to Christ his righteousness. Hope that helps. In Christ, Pat Nope. Sorry. Lets be honest or nothing is achieved: It points to both the Psalmist' and the Lord's righteousness. Remember, this is the OT __ indwelling here. I have a plethora of more examples that speak the same message.

Consider, the issue of vanity, the venue for sin, began with Adam and would have been extinguished had he obeyed. The fact he didn't has sealed it to us to it to deal with but now from a fallen nature must we overcome. I believe it is the power of Sin that Jesus conquered. The first of this was with Cain. Jesus told him:"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt/must rule over [your vanity, desire for self-gratification] him. Genesis 4:7 (KJV)

Without the fear of the Lord, Adam became vanity personified. Because his (nature) was subjected to vanity not because of something Adam did but by the will of God Who so subjected him to it to prove him— with the hope Adam would respond in the only way he might have the victory in his hour of temptation. cf Romans 8:20 Jesus, the human Head of a new creation, was tempted in like manner [with the possibility of failure] however, He did fear God and overcame vanity by His love which fear and love manifested itself as one.

To prove Job __ to himself. To reveal to him [by the accuser] what was yet in his heart he had to deal with irrespective of his steadfast allegiance to God. We have this oft quoted verse by Job for which we think highly of him: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" Job 13:15 (KJV) Have you ever read the next part?: " . . . . —nevertheless, I will maintain and argue my ways before Him and even to His face. Job 13:15 (AMP) But God did__ and raked Job over the coals for his self righteousness! It was made evident to Job why, to which he repented. I hope helps

"Jesus *said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." To which Paul could state: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God". Reiterating the words of David[?]: ". . . . . righteousness and peace have kissed each other." ___ by the shed Blood of the Lamb. Mark 2:17 (NASB) Romans 5:1-2 (KJV Psalm 85:10 (KJV)

I therefore have no righteousness of my own but I do have a righteousness through Christ who paid my debt in full, sits at the right hand of the Father and has His home in my heart through His Holy Spirit who unites us in love and purpose. In Christ, Pat Excellent post, Macs Son. Hi Pat!! So what about David? What do we do with him, "a man after God's own heart"? IMO, we need to remember what David spoke: 1) Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. Psalms 32:1-2 David spoke these words shortly after committing adultery and than murder. He even confessed to God his sins, Psalms 32:5. All this happened after David was called a man after God's own heart, I Samuel 13:14. All one has to do is check thru David's life and you can easily see places he missed up and sinned. But if you want to model yourself after a man of great faith, you would be hard press to find a man more faithful to God, than David. I am not interested in something else David may have said. I want you to address those two verses I posted__ face value. Here's another like it: "Therefore the LORD hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight." 2 Samuel 22:25 (KJV)

All God's promises are conditional. There are over 1400 mentions of the word "IF" in the Bible study them out. Here's one: "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us". Deuteronomy 6:25 (KJV) Read the whole along with Chp 8.

Let me help you.... The God of Israel that I worship never breaks his promise, we humans break it for him.... God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? Num 23;19 Psalm 89:34 I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. The text clearly states God is not a man, we humans break promises, it is a human condition, not a God condition. If God breaks a promises the God is guilty of sin, as I said there are a number of violations God commits if he had to break his promises Leviticus 5:4-5 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these. And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing: Your interpretations contradicts scripture, God "DID" Not break his promise with Israel Please, spare me your 'help'.

Then it has to be me, right? No worries. I'll work through it.