Cross Reference

1. What would have been lost had He failed? 2. Clue: It was the same test given Adam and Eve. __Think about it.

It is very disappointing that you should think I am speaking of "works Salvation", when I have not even alluded to "works" at all __ unless being sincere is a "works". I strongly suspect that is your problem. "I personally know multiple people who made that decision to follow Jesus and died the next day...... no time to do anything." So why the need for a new birth? Believe and 'confess', right? You words, not mine. OMT: I know of many who have gone to church all their lives and you wouldn't know it by their conversation [way of life]. so do I and they have not let/made Jesus be the Lord of their life and when they said they had, they lied..... simple as that..... and again I say that if you are born again, you are not saved.. Born again or saved people live a life that Jesus would approve....... but leading a life that Jesus would approve would not necessarily save or make one born again. Simple as that?? Really?? No backsliders in that mix? Both Christians you mention are capable of deserting God just as Demas deserted Paul. One would pay a greater penalty for doing so. What to venture a guess which one? So what is the sustaining substance absent from their lives Jesus possessed when He entered His wilderness experience and can it be no less that we persevere? Without it we see church failing right along with society. There is little difference any longer between them. " but leading a life that Jesus would approve would not necessarily save or make one born again." If it was about staying out of hell, I might agree. But, it isn't. For salvation, I chose. For the new birth, Jesus chooses. How I know He chooses? There is a reciprocal.

God says: I do not use temptationJames 1:13 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: KJV God says I test or try: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-tempt-us-to-sin.html You have been queried about this and your studied opinion is test-temp-trial are the same... Clearly though out in God's Word they are not... Must break His Promise (?) Where in Scripture do you find God breaking promises Love, Steven Check your Greek and Hebrew for understanding they mean the same. What you fail to take into consider is the motivation that lies behind each word when used. Context helps which reveals such motivation. "After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise." Numbers 14:34 (KJV) "Unbelief" never enters the 'fulfillment' of God's "Promises". In this case, the "natural Promised Land". For the new born of God, Christian, it is the "Spiritual Promised Land "____ Romans 8 which is a plumbline whereby each of us is able to gage our own spirituality. "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am." Genesis 22:1 (KJV) Again, what is the motive of God but to "prove" Abraham". "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12 (KJV) I hope all that helps in some way.

. . .with the realization that God does tempt to prove and must break His promise after the results are in and are not to His necessary satisfaction. Does anyone wish to call that "works salvation"?

You received all the understanding that I could have hoped for. . . You see it! Now can you see the modern day Christian and that Jesus [not as God] is indeed our role model?

Then you obviously don't understand that every gift God gives is in promise form. Also it is obvious you didn't read my references. Read them all twice and that's why I responded... might I ask what promise did God give Jesus in the desert??? Sometimes I can be dense. For what reason did God allow Jesus left alone to be tempted of the Devil after having empowering Him__God thereafter never interfered in anyway until the forty days were up..

Then you obviously don't understand that every gift God gives is in promise form. Also it is obvious you didn't read my references.

It is very disappointing that you should think I am speaking of "works Salvation", when I have not even alluded to "works" at all __ unless being sincere is a "works". I strongly suspect that is your problem. "I personally know multiple people who made that decision to follow Jesus and died the next day...... no time to do anything." So why the need for a new birth? Believe and 'confess', right? You words, not mine. OMT: I know of many who have gone to church all their lives and you wouldn't know it by their conversation [way of life].

G'mornin' Brother other! "you don't have to prove you've made Jesus your Lord to be saved...... just decide it and speak it from what I get out of scripture.... " Maybe. Wanna take that chance? What might you believe the "break point" might be if no further pursuing is evidenced? "sometimes it does take time for it to become apparent, but when the decision is made, it's made and the Holy Spirit starts working to smooth out all the wrinkles." When/If that time comes then a Pastor has something to work with, wouldn't you say, i.e., questions-inquiries being asked and answers given as a sign of hunger? . .

I can't get the hang of this type of HTML or whatever it is. I will go my own way and leave it up to you for understandin. Sorry.

July 28th After obedience—what? "And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side".… Mark 6:45–52 . We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God’s purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end. What is my dream of God’s purpose? His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God. God’s training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end. God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present; but if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious. Chambers, O. (1986). My utmost for his highest: Selections for the year. Grand Rapids, MI: Oswald Chambers Publications; Marshall Pickering.

Does everyone understand that what took the children of Israel 40 yrs to accomplish, Jesus did it in 40 days? This necessitates reading the account in Deuteronomy 6-8; Numbers 14:34, for an exposition of their journey from out of Egypt and into the promised land to compare it with Luke 4:1-14. See what you think . .

Does The rain falls on the just and unjust. & Many are called but few are choosen. Have room in the mix? 1. A confession is more than a profession so when one says he believes we must determine what that means. If truly a confession then the life that speaks it will reveal the evidence. I am persuaded by the scriptures that Jesus can only be "confessed" by the indwelling Holy Spirit from the mouth of such a one. Therefore, it can only be asked of new born Christian in which case my answer would be, yes___ "If he continues in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,. . . . " Colossians 1:23 (KJV) 2. I don't find it easy to explain, with regarders to Him, the scenes of my own personal experiences, I "believe", God has given me to understand. It's tough being bold with an opinion. Let me illustrate by asking you, does the word "might", in your thinking, imply a conditional act? Yes, I am going some place with this. I think you may not understand that we most likely don't disagree on the subject, but you are talking me around in circles...... if you are speaking of John 3:16 yes that is a conditional "not" in that verse and should be translated might not instead of some translations of will not perish. I don't see where it affects any part of Romans 10:9. I would say that the Holy Spirit comes after one says that Jesus is our Lord....... to say otherwise would be to say that the Holy Spirit himself picks who is and who is not going to hell from the start..... thus nullifying the scripture that says it is the will of God that everyone might be saved. You have the same freedom to go to heaven or hell as do I..... and it's your personal choice if one if introduced to the Gospel. _________________________________________________________________________ Sorry for the problem I am causing with my poor writing skills but I guess i just don't have sufficient education that "might" cover all the bases. , I was only asking for the definition of "might". John 3:16, Strongs has "might" linked with, "be saved"; three words explained together. Nevertheless, we agree it comes across as condititional. In 1 John 3:8 We see "might" as meaning: "break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off", that changes things.. The KJV use of the word leaves us with no room for making a disctinction. So for me, "might" infers a conditional act. Therefore, when reading something like this: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil" 1 John 3:8 (KJV) implies what Jesus does for us or in us is conditioned upon us being one in Him or seeking to become conformed to His image __ a process that can only begin after a new birth, when we are made "empty and swept clean"... The proving of God is what will reveal our conditition. Though it could happen, In general I don't see it as an event at the alter saying the sinners prayer. If left to Strongs I would have hard time with 1 John 3:8 I would agree that the the sinners prayer at the alter is what makes a person born again, but it is the start..... most people who quote some sinners prayer talk about Jesus coming into thier heart, but people really don't want to define what that means If that means that they have committed to Jesus being thier Lord, I would say they are saved and born again.... assuming they are not lying. I think you are making it too difficult for if you look at Romans, there the statement about being saved is non conditional..... it does day that you "will" be saved. Again people don't seem to want to understand what is involved with confessing Jesus as your Lord...... if it is true, you have either made him your Lord or let him be Lord and at that point you are committed to living a life that he would approve.... If a person does not do this, I would question them being born again. I am not quite sure if the sinners prayer has much to do with anything other than a "profession". It can't be a confession because sufficient time woud not have passed for one to be found quilty, despite any emotional experience. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3 (KJV) "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough [to enter it] , and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." Luke 9:62 (KJV) Though many new born of God have turned back, some even unto reprobate [cf Heb. 6:4-6], most all who do have never been born again but have merely had their "houseswept clean". However, in all of this we must factor in the foreknowledge of God of that individula, we are not privy to. [emphasis mine] OMT: Peter gives a great "preparation message" to the born again. Read 2Pet 1: 1-11

Does The rain falls on the just and unjust. & Many are called but few are choosen. Have room in the mix? 1. A confession is more than a profession so when one says he believes we must determine what that means. If truly a confession then the life that speaks it will reveal the evidence. I am persuaded by the scriptures that Jesus can only be "confessed" by the indwelling Holy Spirit from the mouth of such a one. Therefore, it can only be asked of new born Christian in which case my answer would be, yes___ "If he continues in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,. . . . " Colossians 1:23 (KJV) 2. I don't find it easy to explain, with regarders to Him, the scenes of my own personal experiences, I "believe", God has given me to understand. It's tough being bold with an opinion. Let me illustrate by asking you, does the word "might", in your thinking, imply a conditional act? Yes, I am going some place with this. I think you may not understand that we most likely don't disagree on the subject, but you are talking me around in circles...... if you are speaking of John 3:16 yes that is a conditional "not" in that verse and should be translated might not instead of some translations of will not perish. I don't see where it affects any part of Romans 10:9. I would say that the Holy Spirit comes after one says that Jesus is our Lord....... to say otherwise would be to say that the Holy Spirit himself picks who is and who is not going to hell from the start..... thus nullifying the scripture that says it is the will of God that everyone might be saved. You have the same freedom to go to heaven or hell as do I..... and it's your personal choice if one if introduced to the Gospel. _________________________________________________________________________ Sorry for the problem I am causing with my poor writing skills but I guess i just don't have sufficient education that "might" cover all the bases. , I was only asking for the definition of "might". John 3:16, Strongs has "might" linked with, "be saved"; three words explained together. Nevertheless, we agree it comes across as condititional. In 1 John 3:8 We see "might" as meaning: "break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off", that changes things.. The KJV use of the word leaves us with no room for making a disctinction. So for me, "might" infers a conditional act. Therefore, when reading something like this: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil" 1 John 3:8 (KJV) implies what Jesus does for us or in us is conditioned upon us being one in Him or seeking to become conformed to His image __ a process that can only begin after a new birth, when we are made "empty and swept clean"... The proving of God is what will reveal our conditition. Though it could happen, In general I don't see it as an event at the alter saying the sinners prayer. If left to Strongs I would have hard time with 1 John 3:8

Does The rain falls on the just and unjust. & Many are called but few are choosen. Have room in the mix? _________________________________________ I sure think so. To me, just saved folk and regenerated folk are two different classes of Christian people. One is carnal while the other has come into the knowledge of what is, coming into son-ship in the Father. Chambers words it this way: "Our Lord transformed innocence into holiness by a series of moral choices. Satan tempted Him along this line: “Do God’s will according to Your own understanding; don’t sacrifice the life of nature to the will of God.” Jesus made invariably one answer—“For I am come down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me(John 6:38)." It is no different for the new born of God, i.e., by His Blood-regeneration are we made innocent to become holy for the purpose of joint-heirship with Christ Jesus. That is what God is after! for His giving His Son.

1. A confession is more than a profession so when one says he believes we must determine what that means. If truly a confession then the life that speaks it will reveal the evidence. I am persuaded by the scriptures that Jesus can only be "confessed" by the indwelling Holy Spirit from the mouth of such a one. Therefore, it can only be asked of new born Christian in which case my answer would be, yes___ "If he continues in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,. . . . " Colossians 1:23 (KJV) 2. I don't find it easy to explain, with regards to Him. The scenes of my own personal experiences, I "believe", God has given me to understand. It's tough being bold with an opinion. Let me illustrate by asking you, does the word "might", in your thinking, imply a conditional act? Yes, I am going some place with this.

I understand, other. Hope you will read my brief testimony and it helps you in some way to sort out the issues. . I read everything I could find, but the sites search of our posts doesn't always work..... I'm still not sure what you mean by new birth and what it takes to have that happen... also as Joe asks what you mean by "a grace centered Christian" and how they would be judged by thier works...... and if someone is something besides a Grace Centered Christian why they would not be judges by thier works... I really don't know if I agree or disagree with you for I don't really understand what you mean. ____________________________________________________________________________________________ G'mornin' Brother other! A “grace centered Christian” presumes upon his salvation to make be the all in all of his faith. It is not a faith in Jesus Christ and need not be in his thinking. In reality it is, “I have faith in my faith that I am saved”; my faith in God’s grace is the extant of my faith”. 1. For understanding, one must first see the fallacy of “arbitrary predestination” that strips one of any assurance of his salvation. This persuasion came about partly by those of Luther’s followers mis-construing what he found for himself to be true concerning God’s grace, that it is a costly grace. It was a finding out of the truth from God’s word that rectified his thinking that might have begun a process of revitalization of the Church of Jesus Christ . The “mis-construing” gave rise to a false grace; for believing a false/incomplete understanding of the outcome of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. It was soon to become a doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” or OSAS with sins having been forgiven, past, present and future. While there is little difficulty with believing for the past and present forgiveness of sins, assuming repentance, forgiveness for future sins [is] presumed upon because of the ‘warped’ understanding, easy believe-ism ‘grace’, a spiritual product produced by Jesus that can be purchased by man with no price that seals him to eternal heavenly bliss __ but, strips him of incentive for knowing God in an intimate. Such a Christian now advances __ nothing __because there is nothing in him to advance. He is happy he is saved and believes Jesus wants him to be happy until he dies. Anything more than nullifies such grace and is looked upon as an anathema. Consequently he doesn’t want to be disturbed by any further teaching of the scriptures. 2. I believe the new birth is Christ Jesus choosing us to be His disciple no differently than He choose the twelve. He does so after we make the commitment from ourselves. Our allegiance to Him is the tie that binds. He foreknows such allegiance and uses it for His purposes/will. Judas comes to mind in this. Once “accepted in the Beloved”, we see this as an actuality in our lives, i.e., something that is quickened to us. For the twelve, it was in the natural. For us, it will be our spirit that comes alive unto Him: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him [foreknowledge] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:” Ephesians 1:3-10 (KJV) One who is born again is a worshipper. One who is born again will be proven with always the possibility of failure. Hence, the warnings against presumption. Interest or identification? I have been crucified with Christ. Gal. 2:20. "The imperative need spiritually is to sign the death-warrant of the disposition of sin, to turn all emotional impressions and intellectual beliefs into a moral verdict against the disposition of sin, viz., my claim to my right to myself. Paul says—“I have been crucified with Christ”; he does not say, ‘I have determined to imitate Jesus Christ,’ or, ‘I will endeavour to follow Him,’ but, ‘I have been identified with Him in His death.’ When I come to such a moral decision and act upon it, then all that Christ wrought for me on the Cross is wrought in me. The free committal of myself to God gives the Holy Spirit the chance to impart to me the holiness of Jesus Christ. “… nevertheless I live …” The individuality remains, but the mainspring, the ruling disposition, is radically altered. The same human body remains, but the old satanic right to myself is destroyed. “And the life which I now live in the flesh …,” not the life which I long to live and pray to live, but the life I now live in my mortal flesh, the life which men can see, “I live by the faith of the Son of God.” This faith is not Paul’s faith in Jesus Christ, but the faith that the Son of God has imparted to him—“the faith of the Son of God.” It is no longer faith in faith, but faith which has overleapt all conscious bounds, the identical faith of the Son of God." I hope this all helps clear up some of what I have tried to convey. It is by no means etched in stone for me. Perhaps you have some thoughts to share? Lov'in Jesus, *Chambers, O. (1986). My utmost for his highest: Selections for the year. Grand Rapids, MI: Oswald Chambers Publications; Marshall Pickering. 03/22.

If exiled on a desert island with only two of my choice, they would be my Thompson chain and the complete works of Chambers. Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: The Complete Works of Oswald ...

I understand, other. Hope you will read my brief testimony and it helps you in some way to sort out the issues. . I read everything I could find, but the sites search of our posts doesn't always work..... I'm still not sure what you mean by new birth and what it takes to have that happen... also as Joe asks what you mean by "a grace centered Christian" and how they would be judged by thier works...... and if someone is something besides a Grace Centered Christian why they would not be judges by thier works... I really don't know if I agree or disagree with you for I don't really understand what you mean. It has been a long day with family, other. I do appreciate your questions. Tomorow, after a good nights rest, would be a much better time for me to reply. The post I was referring to is #6. Perhpas if you would review it and ponder my experience it might make it easier for me to clarify my position should you still need it. Thank you Lov'in Jesus,

Stay tender in Him, Sis Sis, You might to consider that what God gives us is in promise form not unlike He gave the children of Israel before Jesus ever comes into the picture. For them it was messiah. Here: "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:" Deuteronomy 6:5-6 (KJV) For us, this side of the cross, when we seek to live that commandment it reveals something to be Jesus as the reciprical of His Love and then the sky opens up! cf John 6:44

Yes!! I am eating them with insight as i have never done before! I am born Again!! Thank you for sharing . .

I understand, other. Hope you will read my brief testimony and it helps you in some way to sort out the issues. .

Amen With love-in Christ,Kwik Many say "I am saved" but it just may be a lot of lip service????Do they really have Faith?Do they really love Jesus? That is between each man & God...........but let us not judge,lest we be judged........... Indeed. I posted the thread from own experience. In my youth, several prophecies were spoken over me. Even though they were in "promise" form like: "Wait on the Lord and I say wait", I expected God at some point in time, regardless of my "waiting " on Him, to just wave His "magic wand" and I woud be 'tranfigured'. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I didn't know then what I know now and have questioned why not since I did consider myself a born again Christian? Certainly it was me who failed in those years of presumption, however, being told I could never lose my salvation presumption only gave way to outright gross sinning since with no regard for spiritual consequences and I fell away to that as one you would believe never went to church __ and seldom did except from time to time being invited I would go to see if there was anything different that might 'move me' to a more sincere repentance, if there was such a thing.. Never happened. Same ol' stuff that never worked. I have often thought about this instance in my life I could give no account for until of late: As a youth I sang, church, events, etc. One afternoon at a 1950 Jerry Owen evangelistic crusade, I sang a duet with him on his platform, "I Fell in Love with Jesus". At the alter call, myself and a young friend who later pioneered 5 churches, "assisted" others praying at the alter __[God's lil helpers] ____ With my tears and snot, I soaked my hankerchief until was of no longer of any use. I was 12 yrs old. When all was complete and i was back at the loge where my family was seated, my aunt said to me: "We couldn't figure out who was getting saved, you or the one you were praying for". For all these many years that has haulted me to question, not God's hand upon me but, was I really born again? Had God save me but could not at that time give me His new life? I now know that to be true. He did chose me for His new life but much had to be destroyed in me for me to receive it; the penalty for stomping all over it was too great! Because of what I 'see' the new birth to represent, I believe God witheld it from me until I was 'able' to protect it with my life!! __which required of me to love Him for Who He is __ not for what I get out of the deal. Those tears I shed at that alter were tears of sorrow and pain I would soon bring upon myself for what was to come in my life that would push me to brink of reprobation. In summary: God, indeed, has saved me and placed within me His new Life. Though the "scar tissue" remains, I know I have Christ Jesus as my Lord and He is taking Home. I am His. I Love Him

Oh My, LOL!!! Where would we be if we weren't informed of the "nature" of things. . . .

I have wrestled with the issues for many years. Sorry to say I paid a heavy price for it all I really didn't have to pay ___ but He knew what it was going to take. I should have been a castoff many years ago. Bless His Holy Name. He indeed is Faithful. Thank you, My Brother.