Cross Reference

There's always some faith left in us as a Christian, even if it's as small as the size of a mustard seed. The mustard seed faith IS of the Faith of Jesus Chrst. Could it be otherwise for Jesus to say what He declared, re the fig tree? Good point. Ya Know, Brother, if, by such declaration from Jesus, we might come to understand that it is intimacy with the Father as He had; If we could break loose from feeling the necessity of continually preaching and teaching salvation to the choir and get on being a people desirous of knowing God as Father, the Church would take off! Corporate worship would be an event steeped in the beauty of the Lord; His "train filling the temple"! I have experienced such glorious events __ but too few of them.

Thanks KwiK! I briefly remembered that of Satan you have astutley added to make sure we get the whole picture that we might see to understand what is expected of us who claim the Name of Jesus. Jesus, the man, our Brother, our role model for son-ship in the Father. .

Uh-oh.... Jesus is the Word made flesh which never goes against the written Word. Jesus always quoted.. for it is written. What can I say that will convince you that the "Word" submitted Himself to the flesh of Jesus who was made, as you know, a little lower than the angels. Everything Jesus did on earth was of His flesh steeped, consummated, made perfect, in the Godhead __ complete union with God. Understand this to understand what our being born again is really to be all about!

There's always some faith left in us as a Christian, even if it's as small as the size of a mustard seed. The mustard seed faith IS of the Faith of Jesus Chrst. Could it be otherwise for Jesus to say what He declared, re the fig tree?

There never would be that question as Jesus is the Word made flesh. Just look at Jesus response to the temptation... Matthew4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. There never will be any what if. Consider that Temptation can not ever be temptation unless there is the possibility of failure. . . .Jesus was tempted, made subject to vanity, and overcame by the written word of God. It was as Adam was supposed to do and failed. Jesus was given the option of calling on the angels to pull him out. You mention the possibility of failure, but Jesus was given a choice... neither choice would have been a failure but God's love was demostrated by Jesus choice made. Now we have life (if accepted) because of it. Sure it would. Why would you believe it wouldn't? "Jesus was given the option of calling on the angels to pull him out". Not to Him did He believe so. It was a "sink or swim" issue and He knew His Father was trusting Him for His purposes. God still makes choices on that basis today. The alllegiance of Jesus to His Father allowed God to not withold anything from He desired, even calling on the angels. Had He done so, Jesus would never have been savior and there could never again be an effort made by God to redeem man. If Jesus would have chosing to be pulled out...man would still have been saved. Jesus is the Word made flesh the perfect man which God could only accept. Jesus wanted that same love demostrated to Him available to others and so he chose to do so. How can a sinless man take on all sin?.... He had to choose. So Jesus didn't believe the Father as that being an option? There never would be that question as Jesus is the Word made flesh. Just look at Jesus response to the temptation... Matthew4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. There never will be any what if. Consider that Temptation can not ever be temptation unless there is the possibility of failure. . . .Jesus was tempted, made subject to vanity, and overcame by the written word of God. It was as Adam was supposed to do and failed. Jesus was given the option of calling on the angels to pull him out. You mention the possibility of failure, but Jesus was given a choice... neither choice would have been a failure but God's love was demostrated by Jesus choice made. Now we have life (if accepted) because of it. Sure it would. Why would you believe it wouldn't? "Jesus was given the option of calling on the angels to pull him out". Not to Him did He believe so. It was a "sink or swim" issue and He knew His Father was trusting Him for His purposes. God still makes choices on that basis today. The alllegiance of Jesus to His Father allowed God to not withold anything from He desired, even calling on the angels. Had He done so, Jesus would never have been savior and there could never again be an effort made by God to redeem man. If Jesus would have chosing to be pulled out...man would still have been saved. Jesus is the Word made flesh the perfect man which God could only accept. Jesus wanted that same love demostrated to Him available to others and so he chose to do so. How can a sinless man take on all sin?.... He had to choose. So Jesus didn't believe the Father as that being an option? " Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet." Psalm 91:9-13 (KJV) You are presumimg on a poor rendendering of the scriptures that never speak of tempting God, to support your question. Jesus never went against the will of the Father. He never tempted Him either. "If Jesus would have chosing to be pulled out...man would still have been saved. Jesus is the Word made flesh the perfect man which God could only accept. Jesus wanted that same love demostrated to Him available to others and so he chose to do so. How can a sinless man take on all sin?.... He had to choose." _____________________________________________________________________________ Jesus chose the only route possible that could only bring about salvation to man. Jesus was God's consummate man. Man as God intended man. Trusting In God's written word was part of His consummation [prerfection]. Not trusting in His written word, by taking matters into His own hands, ala calling on Angels to assist Him in His temptations, would have been a falling away from that perfection __ they weren't available anyway. hence, He would have been disqualified from being savior every bit as much Adam's transgression disqualified him from "bringing many sons unto glory" by procreation. Obeying the commands of God is key to understanding this. As with adam, the temptation of Jesus was by the Hand of God and Jesus knew it. Read Luke 4:1-14 to understand how He entered and how He came out of the wilderness for understanding of what Jesus understood..

But when do you let go and step out in faith. If you have not that kind of faith no sign will be sufficent __ and the easy one will be your choice.

There never would be that question as Jesus is the Word made flesh. Just look at Jesus response to the temptation... Matthew4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. There never will be any what if. Consider that Temptation can not ever be temptation unless there is the possibility of failure. . . .Jesus was tempted, made subject to vanity, and overcame by the written word of God. It was as Adam was supposed to do and failed. Jesus was given the option of calling on the angels to pull him out. You mention the possibility of failure, but Jesus was given a choice... neither choice would have been a failure but God's love was demostrated by Jesus choice made. Now we have life (if accepted) because of it. Sure it would. Why would you believe it wouldn't? "Jesus was given the option of calling on the angels to pull him out". Not to Him did He believe so. It was a "sink or swim" issue and He knew His Father was trusting Him for His purposes. God still makes choices on that basis today. The alllegiance of Jesus to His Father allowed God to not withold anything from He desired, even calling on the angels. Had He done so, Jesus would never have been savior and there could never again be an effort made by God to redeem man. Jesus knew that. Jesus loved His Father. He laid not only His eternal human life on the line but that of the whole Godhead which stood with Him; His rerward protection. It all hung on His "freewill" decisions. In His trials and temptations He wasn't the Word __ He was man, full of the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1), left alone without the conscience presence of His Father, only the written word of God to draw from, His insight being impeccable.. No, there would be no choice in this for Him. "For God so loved the world . . . . " Question: Can we say that about ourselves?

I agree 110%....Amen! You've not missed anything(IMO) I think many lacking in Reverence & Honor to Almighty God With love-in Christ,Kwik Thank you Kwik! I needed that. It is nice to read kind words of "Godly" encouragement.

There never would be that question as Jesus is the Word made flesh. Just look at Jesus response to the temptation... Matthew4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. There never will be any what if. Consider that Temptation can not ever be temptation unless there is the possibility of failure. . . .Jesus was tempted, made subject to vanity, and overcame by the written word of God. It was as Adam was supposed to do and failed.

Do you believe David, a man after God's own heart, knew God? How'bout Abraham, God's friend? Moses? the Book of John tell us that Jesus was in the form of God before he allowed himself to become flesh....... Moses, Aaron and 72 other people went up on the Mountain and saw the God of Israel..... says so in Exodus.... Jesus says that no man has seen the Father..... If you are to make all scripture hold as truth you must come to the conclusion that the Father was not the God that Moses knew........ it is my personal view that the God that Moses knew was Jesus in the form of God. None of the old testament people knew of the Father, just the personage of our triune God..... Jesus. As Father, I have no argument. I stand corrected. I don't believe I needed the rectification but my thinking was going in the wrong direction. Thank you for reeling me back in. , ,

Duplication deleted

Do you believe David, a man after God's own heart, knew God? How'bout Abraham, God's friend? Moses?

With love-in Christ.Kwik My Bad !!! RF should read RT! Reform Theology. I wrote the Wine and Bread were a "touch point" for us in Christ. It conveys intimacy with the Father as He possessed. Unworthily partaken of is as I wrote it to be; as Paul spoke of it. I really don't know what I missed or am missing. I believe it is accurate understanding of an act of a most Holy worship to God.

If the rest are of a incarnated grace centered doctrine, I am sure I already know what to expect. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [not grace] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 (KJV)

You can't. Not to get side tracked but, that is why God's sovreignty can never violate Himself, i.e., He can never sin. Given the humanity of Jesus that left the whole Godhead vulnerable to failure and that He did not fail only points up the fact that any man who gives himself wholly to God as Jesus did, won't fail either. Question: What was Jesus given for His success? What will man, in Him, be given for his success? Once The Truth is established One cannot go backwards in reason to the place you have in this Jesus did not come to prove Himself able in flesh to be God but God in flesh to lead us out of the lie... Love, Steven "Once The Truth is established" Waht does that mean??? How does it apply??? "One cannot go backwards in reason to the place you have in this" Sorry, Does not compute. Where is the relevance? "Jesus did not come to prove Himself able in flesh to be God but God in flesh to lead us out of the lie" But He did come to show us how to be successful in life, didn't He? You are taking away all my suspicions about you objectively advancing this kind of an argument/discussion. None of it has intergrity of intention. You want to disprove me and by misrepresention is the only way. I have written nothing that needs to be disproved__ for any reason. Perhaps if you tried reading for understanding your replies would read differently.

You can't. Not to get side tracked but, that is why God's sovreignty can never violate Himself, i.e., He can never sin. Given the humanity of Jesus that left the whole Godhead vulnerable to failure and that He did not fail only points up the fact that any man who gives himself wholly to God as Jesus did, won't fail either. Question: What was Jesus given for His success? What will man, in Him, be given for his success?

Very Good, Kwik! Thank you, Brother. However, I find it a bit weak; limited in substance because of the over emphasis upon the doctrine of grace the RF church has preached for so long. What RF fails to point up is the penalty for partaking "presumptously"/unworthily by believing His grace is unconditional; __ that poor understanding of grace advanced by Luther's followers is now the new Christianity. Sins are now forgiven, past, present and future. Ergo, why abide? Where is the need? The Wine and Bread speak of "intimacy" in the Father, Jesus prayed for in John 17; "intimacy" even in understanding the preciousness of our indentification with cross.The Wine and the Bread becoming the one thing that can be 'touched'. To 'touch' it unworthily is to step behind the Curtain unworthily. What was the OT penalty for that crime that Jesus might now be our advocater? "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 (KJV) I believe you are asute enough to understand what I am advancing for anyone's profit who hasn't given it much thought. Thanks again for sharing. Lov'in Jesus,

The Atonement is made effective only by the new birth. Anything short of that leaves the mere "grace centered Christian" to be judged by his works.

Okay... I believe Christianity has made more of what Jesus did [grace] than who He was and is. Grace was not incarnated but, the Word of God.

What would have been sinful about Jesus turning stones into bread? Is there anything inherently wrong with that? What was Satan’s real motivation? Satan tempted Jesus first what he was most valnerable to which was hunger. After 40 days... yeah bread would sound good. Jesus turning stone to bread based on Satan's request rather than God's will would be exactly what Satan wanted. Satan was trying to get him to respond outside of the Father's will. Yes! To get Jesus to take matters into His own hands; to get Him to renege in His allegiance to God. What would have been the result He had done so?

Thank you Steven. I am a Christian. I am only posting up what I know; what has been my experience that you might weigh it against yours; that you might profit from it. Unless you can point out an error I would simply say lets keep going to see what is there to be seen, but overlooked. is Lov'in Jesus,

God will never allow Himself to be tempted beyond what He is willing to reveal of a thing. Gideon comes to mind. It then remains for the one asking to step out in faith in the direction he/she feels led. Van Til has it this way: Run the thing out in your thinking as far as you can and see where to winds up __ if Satan, stop. If God, proceed..

This is absurd! The Hebrew Language is a pictorial type language and the Greek is a so specific it isn't funny language. The Proving of God and the temptations of satan are the radical difference of light verses darkness! It might help you if you placed Scripture as proof text for your assertions... Love, Steven Why do you want to argue with me?? Why do you feel the need to protect anything of your doctrine?? What part of what you read from me offends you? OMT: look up the word temptation __ as in "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am". Genesis 22:1 (KJV) He "tested" Abraham. He did not tempt Abraham in terms of tempting Abraham to sin. Word usage is more important than word meaning. No kidding, Dick Tracey! You are picking fly dirt out of pepper. I well know God never tempts for malicous reasons. HOWEVER. I wrote that the word temptation means to : Prove, test, trial in both the Hebrew and Greek. You want to argue with that and there is no agrument. Check it out! Give it up and lets move on!

This is absurd! The Hebrew Language is a pictorial type language and the Greek is a so specific it isn't funny language. The Proving of God and the temptations of satan are the radical difference of light verses darkness! It might help you if you placed Scripture as proof text for your assertions... Love, Steven Why do you want to argue with me?? Why do you feel the need to protect anything of your doctrine?? What part of what you read from me offends you? OMT: look up the word temptation __ as in "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am". Genesis 22:1 (KJV)

Knowing that it is not for salvation, may I ask what other symbol does the Wine and the Bread Jesus instituted as a "type" and carries such a warning for those who partake of it unworthily, represent?