Persuaded

Yes, the witnesses are real men. The "two" I referred to was the "olive tree and candlestick(sic)". Their light (witness) comes from an in-exhaustible source (the tree which is the source of the oil). Sort of like a fighter jet tethered to a fuel tanker... I like the parallel with Joshua, where he sends in two "spies" into Jericho. They accomplish nothing that would further Joshua's (or the Lord's) battle plan, but instead accomplish the salvation of Rahab. Instead of two spies, maybe it's more appropriate to call them two witnesses? There are several other Joshua/Revelation parallels: - there is silence in heaven before the seventh trumpet, just as they marched silently around Jericho until blowing their trumpets on the seventh day. - ten heads and seven horns in Revelation, versus Canaan with ten kings, three already conquered and seven remaining in the other side of the Jordan. - the land being dispossessed of its usurpers. Joshua conquering the seven kings in Canaan, Jesus conquering Satan's forces that occupy the earth. - victories accomplished with signs in the sky, sun and moon. - kings of the earth saying "rocks, fall on us." or hiding in caves.

Olive trees and light bearers... (Candlestick is misleading) Refers to the tabernacle, and the seven branched lamp-stand. It was fed by pure olive oil. Oil is a frequent idiom for the Holy Spirit. These two, idiomatically, are two lamp stands/light bearers, tapped directly into the source. The Spirit gives them an in-exhaustible supply of His oil, for as long as it suits God's plan. At Pentecost, (or John 20, when Christ breathed on them) the Spirit came upon the Church. After the rapture, the Spirit (restrainer of 2 Thes 2:7) no longer indwells "those that dwell on the earth". The Spirit, in the OT pattern, becomes conditional and temporary (David: "take not thy Holy Spirit from me..."). We, today, can not validly pray that prayer. These two witnesses, in contrast to the earth-dwellers, DO have a permanent in dwelling of the HS.

Hmm. I'm aware of various gap theories that meddle with the six day account, usually trying to blend evolution and creation. In our zeal to defend creation, many Christians paint "science" with too broad a brush, lumping it all together under the evil-lution category. I'd hate to see Christians make the flat earth mistake with this subject too. I know of no scripture that refutes a gap before the six days, nor any doctrine that it would contradict. If light began with Gen 1:3, I don't think we can scientifically or theologically prove that time (as we understand it) existed previously! Your statement about the Hebrew construction is the first I've heard. My Hebrew and Greek skills are limited to use of the various interlinnears which often flesh-out word usage and meanings, but aren't useful against "construction" arguments. Regardless, there has to be a gap between John 1:1 (Christ pre existing) and Gen 1:2 where the earth, before the six days, is already created and existing. I realize I'm a noob here, and you all may have been through this once or twice already, but I thought the thread was appropriate to respond to.

The "Big Bang" is not the Christian's enemy, the way evolution is. The two ideas relate to different events. God created our universe from nothing, and the evidence for the Big Bang is just the fingerprints of that process. Between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 is an unknown time interval, during which the angels that rebelled fell with Lucifer. In Eze 28:13 he is in Eden in a glorious state, yet in pre-fall Genesis he is already fallen. I take this to mean that there was a prior "Eden". Gen 1:2 is usually rendered "And the earth was without form and void....", but many think "became" is better than "was". And Isa 45:18 uses the same word as Gen 1:2's "without form" when he says of the Lord creating the world: "Who did not create it in vain" (vain, same word as without form). So the world was not created without form, but after Lucifer's fall it became without form. And then beginning with Gen 1:3 God did his six-day work of creation.