RCruise

LOL!!! At least no one voted "Female" as yet. I can't vote! There is no option for me to vote on He is neither yet, God always refers to Himself in the masculine. Jesus tells us that God is NOT a man but a Spirit yet, God did not beget a "Daughter", He Begat a Only Son. In Genesis we read: Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let US make MAN in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS: and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God CREATED MAN in HIS OWN IMAGE, in the IMAGE OF GOD CREATED HE HIM; MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM. Notice how God jumps from Plural of Himself to Singular and does the same in reference to man yet, clearly points out "Male and Female" created in His Image? He is Both, He is Neither, He is God, He is Jesus! And His Word say who and what He is so as man tries to genderize God or "neuter" God or even make Him a femenime character, man will never succeed. It's kind of lilke the clay telling the potter; "I will define you". Ain't never gonna happen.

Actually, "by faith" but, I never said he didn't have faith. It takes a lot of Faith to offer up your only son knowing God will keep the Promise He made on that son. But, the Abimelech incident was early before Isaac. And, it is obvious Abraham "feared" (he said he did to Sarah and the king) not knowing as yet or understanding the Promise God made to him when God called him out of his father's house and land. I did stiplify "Supernatureal Faith" which did grow later and exceedingly so.

Hi Rachel, It looks like you got a lot of answers in here and I really cannot add anything to some of the wonderful insights and Biblical knowledge put forth. I noticed an opposing view or two on Abraham lying to Abimelech about Sarah. The answers to any Biblical Question usually lie within The Word of God itself. As WhySoBlind pointed to, Abraham did not see himself as lying yet, it was deceiving in that Sarah was his wife and he kept that from Abimelech for fear of his life. He had told her when God called him out from his father's land that they were obviously going into strange lands that did not fear God. So he asked her to say he is her brother (not a lie) to protect his life. Abraham obviously had no Supernatural Faith that if God called him out, God would keep him safe and be with him just as God promised. God's Promise to Abraham (Abram): Genesis 17:1-9 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. Abraham's Fear: Genesis 20:11-13 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother. Amazingly, when you read all of chpt. 20, we see that Abimelech DID fear God...may not have served God but, when God spoke to Abimelech, he listened, made a defense of not knowing and did not touch her to which God replied He knew he did it honestly but that God kept him from touching her. And in a dream, God instructed Abimelech to restore her (plus warned total anihilation of him and his kingdom if he did not) and revealed Abraham was a prophet and to have him pray for him and then, God would stay his hand. Which Abimelech and his men (who also feared when they were told what God had said) restored her to Abraham plus menservants, womenservants, riches, gold, animals and offerred him total peace anywhere Abraham wish ro reside in the whole land. Now that's fear! When we get into much Study and reading in all of God's Word, we find that God has a purpose from the beginning and that is to make His Glory known throughout the Earth and All nations. When we read the words of Jesus and His promises to do whatever we ask, He will do not for much anything else than to reveal His Glory by which the Father is Glorified in the Son: John 14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. God suffered iniquity and "winked at sin" before Jesus to make His Glory known. (Acts 17:30) Biblicist posted a site I always defer to about evolution and dinosaurs: Answers in Genesis I'm not an arcaeologist or scientist of any sort (have a degree in Computer Science) but that's it. I used to debate the evolutionary and dinosaur stuff but, God says HE will prove man's wisdom to be foolish so I left that up to Him and He is doing a marvelous job using their own sciences to prove them wrong! lol! The biggest lie behind evolustion is the theory of assigning "Time" to their measuring tools. They themselves freely and honestly admit that the only way to assign a date to fossils is to have been there right when it died and fossilized, take a measurement, take stepped and precise measurements at regular intervals from that point forward up to today and they could be about 50% accurate on dating. (no way to account if there was a missed measurement during huge barometric pressure changes, changes in earth pressures or movements, etc..) So, we can see by their own admission, they really do not know how old anything really is or how long dead except stuff they have measured and checked since the tools were available....about 20 years at best.

The devil's greatest lie today is that he doesn't exist or isn't causing much of what we see in disorders and diseaase. I am not one to call every disease a demon like many do but, I do know the ways of the adversary and when a human being not Truely convered by the Blood of Jesus and Abiding in Him as He calls to do, goes violent and out of the ordinary actions to where they need to be subdued, it's a demon sure enough. The crazed man at teh tombs that Jesus cast out the many demons called legion, if he could undergo a scan and tests before Jesus cast them out, I will say it would come up a lot of imbalances of Brain chemicals and waves. Same with the man's son who threw himself down and Jesus' disciples couldn't cast it out. And, as I posted, it is written that it would only be worse today than it was in Jesus' time.

Hi Truster! An "Israelite" by adoption perhaps. Don't know about the "no guile" thing....I pray it is gone or leaving! lol! The observation is of a "blind in the flesh" man (cataracts and use windows magnifier) whom The Lord dealt with already over this same stuff. What I received of Him, I posted. It still speaks to me as well. And yes, it is not new and it does go on in churches everywhere. I left the Lord for seventeen years because of that and worse but, in reality due to my own anger of it for they attacked several families. For a while after my return to Jesus in 1997, I was a "champion" for others when I saw it go on. They could attack me or say anything, I knew where my Faith stood and still do. But, The Lord showed me that I was returning evil even in defending others so, I still do but, with His Good Word and with Love as He teaches us in His Word. Not easy! It is also why we have recently directed Harvest Time Church to a home Study and Group format which has it's own problems but fewer and more easily resolved in Christ.

Thank you asap and thank The Lord for Confirmation! I knew it was from and of Jesus when I posted it but, there is always a wonder if it will do any good or be received. You are the second (received a PM also) to confirm someone's Pastor has taught recently what is said here. In the mouths of two or three witnesses! Praise the Lord! And don't shy away by not coming here! Please! Loving witness is needed anytime! I wouldn't post if it wasn't "Worthy" ok, no more puns... But, this is one of the cleanest Christian Boards I have ever been on. You will always get non-believers and vitriolic Christians anywhere. Not a problem just do what Jesus said; "Return Good for evil......Bless and Curse not..." This is how the Church prevails against the gates of hell. We have to storm into "hell's domain" (Internet can be hellish) into the "strongholds" locked in every heart of Believer and non to put Jesus forth. It is His Battle, not ours for we are just Loving Messengers of The Faith and why we Believe it. So do stick around. A key is to "pick your battles" and if you know one is getting nasty, post a blessing and leave that thread. It Works! lol!

Hello Wayne! Yes I did draw close! But not easily since I have a very stubborn streak He has had to work out of me over time! The Lord gave me Revelation during a very "breaking time" where at the end of that "breaking", I got to visit my beautiful Oregon for two weeks in Oct of 2006. I have had really bad cataracts set on earlier in 2006 and haven't been able to read my Bible directly for almost a year now. I use magnifier and SwordSearcher online since. But it was during my blindness of the flesh that He used to help me to see deeper Spiritually so, yes, I Priase Him for the physical blindness as well! I was working up until that trip but couldn't see very well and the boss was actively looking for someone to replace me of which I helped him to do. I took two weeks off supposing to finish out the year at least when I returned. I didn't have a job when I came back. But, the most wonderous thing happened during the trip. I have always got up early 4-5am to get ready, go find a coffee place, usually Denny's, where I could sit, relax, have my morning coffee and cigs (yes I said cigs) and read The Word and pray back in the smoking section. While staying in Oregon, a Sherri's was in walking distance (can't drive due to the cats) and so I kept my routine since I automatically wake at the same time every morning. I had been down since I could no longer read His Word but, I still prayed. Every morning while we were there, The Lord spoke to me and Scriptures would come up to my remembrance and along with them a message about His Immense Love and desire to be Intimate with us and us with Him in The Spirit! It caused me to seek deeper and I thought I was already. As far as the "job", it didn't matter, He had called me to Preach and Teach, not work for the world. We have had a few scary fincancial times but, we are just fine still almost six months later. My take home was about $650 a week average and it is missed but, we trust in the Lord and I know I must share what He has given me for the hour is darkening and many have not taken on enough "oil" to make the trip.

Hello to All in Jesus Christ: After reading many threads recently (been away a few years) I have seen much hurting and pain in several areas of life expressed on these boards. I have lent out my heart and help to some and offered our Ministry's help and prayers. I have reasoned with some (debated in past years until I pulled back for a while to let Jesus have more His Way in my Life) in here on issues I see but in Love and no arguing or debate (at least I pray it wasn't conceived that way). I am not bragging mind you for certainly I have my faults and failures yet but, as Paul, run the race to press for that "High Mark" in Christ Jesus. What else I have seen is some very upsetting posts supposedly by Christians even to using profanity and vile conversations to press their point. I see Three threads closed recently (some today March 11, 2007) about women preachers. A post by a person called "Hazard" had to be edited by a mod to remove profanity and / or other things highly offensive and it must have been fairly vile because what I saw remaining that wasn't edited out was bad enough. But others participated and arguements ensued and all three threads are now closed as I can see it, because of the ensuing debates and arguments and how some were treating other posters or mistreating each other. This is not edifying each other and is not edifying The Body of Christ and, within that Body, it is not Edifying the young in Christ who see and read such verbage and discord. It also puts one who does so in danger of their own soul: Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. I am not here to chastise nor is it my purpose and please do not argue or debate this for it is from much labor in Word and Prayer and given in Love. When we "Debate", we fall into what Paul was saying: Romans 1:28-32 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. This "list" Paul gives us is not an "all inclusive" requirement for each soul but a comprehensive analogy that if ANY of these exist in us, we are counted as such. And Paul did not leave it at that but spoke to it many times in his letters to other Churches: 2 Corinthians 12:20-21 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Ephesians 4:29-32 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. I have been guilty in times past until the "Breaking" of my fallen nature by the Hand of God brought me unto His Clear and Concise Wisdom bringing the Light of Jesus Christ to bear on my own sin. We are told to "Bless and Curse not.." and again; Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. I have discovered that many struggles and curses in my own life disappear Mysteriously by that simple Scripture and understanding what "fruit I was eating" by violating it. Yet, I know it is no Mystery but the Power of Christ once His Wisdom takes root from the seed of His Word. This Truth applies across the board in our lives. I would suppose the question one must ask of themselves is: Do I want Life or Death? Am I speaking "Life or Death"? For out of the abundance of the Heart, the mouth speaks. James 1:1-27 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

We are Catholics and don't use that terminology in the Catholic faith. Well Jesus won't hold that against you. It doesn't matter whether you are Baptist, Pentecostoal or Catholic, Jesus' Word is all that matters and it's His Words, not man's. I don't know if you believe The Bible (some do , some believe what they are told or taught) but, Jesus dealt with very real demons in His day. Showed and told just who and what they are. Asked them their names and they had to obey and answer. They were and are real. We have subjugated His Word as a society believing our medical sciences and advances have a better answer calling the very demons Jesus dealt with "medical problems" or "anomalies" fixable by our pharmacuetical and bio sciences. We could never be further from the Truth. Most "mind drugs" (and that is what they are) bend the brains synapsis and neural transmitting to abnormal waves and in-balances to correct yet, I have never seen anyone cured by these medications....addicted, controlled (at times, not always) and even died from them but, never cured by them. These are the last days and Jesus said satan (and his ilk) would be running and roaring more than they were back in His time. Your son needs Jesus and His deliverance. We will pray for him and put him in our Daily list. But consider finding Jesus for real and not in Religion. My Father-in-law was Catholic. He ended up in hospice before Christmas after a leg amputation failed to arrest the gangrene running rampant in his body and poisoning him. We gathered our daughters (one married with children and one at home) and went to see him one last time (850 miles away) New Year's weekend. The Lord kept telling me we could not let him die without real Grace offerred to him. I told the Lord He would have to make a way alone with Robert and, He did on Monday - New Years Day. Robert believed that being baptised with Holy Water and his last rites being done would get him into heaven. I asked him if he really believed that solidly and had no doubts. He didn't know and was scared. I told him what Jesus said to do and asked if he wanted to do that. He said yes. I laid an anointed hand on his forehead, took his hand into my right hand and we prayed. The Power of the Holy Spirit moved as He accepted Jesus for Real and plus forgave out of his heart all others. He lived exactly seven days before the Lord took him home. But much to the shock of everyone, (not to me) since they all thought he was getting better. He was uplifted and happy that whole week. My wife and I know why. Men's Religions will get you death and a lot of misery before then. Jesus is the Only Life giver and abundant Life Giver and the Only Healer. That is what your son needs.

GardenDove: You mention your son is a "good and conservative" young man. Is he a Born Again Believer in Jesus?

Hi Rachel: First, many have put forth much Truth like Booth about anger and the others also about whose responsiblity legally it was for the dog dying. I would let your Dad and the Dog's owner know just who is responsible and that the Law requires pet owners to keep their dogs under control and not a danger to society at large and that includes on streets and all car traffic roads. If I have a horse or cow and it gets loose onto a road and someone hits it, flips the body into their windshield and critiacally injures or kills an occupant, you had better believe I will be held accountable by criminal law plus civil and their insurance company as well as the injured party can sue me and my insurance for loss and damages. My animal was not supposed to be loose or on that highway. You have no legal responsiblity here and I would definitely not get angry over it. Jesus calls for us to forgive much, much more as He forgave His accusers and executioners and asked The Father to forgive them as well. This is for them as well as us. It heaps Spiritual Power to overcome and hear Jesus into our hearts and, it heaps coals of fire, conscience working Power of God's Spirit upon the heads of our enemies for their possible conviction and salvation as well. It sounds like the enemy doesn't want you serving Jesus. But, I see a deeper issue in that you admit you keep falling. The Power to sustain in Christ is in His Word. A Discipline for yourself as you have held Jerry accountable, so hold yourself to move everyday closer to Jesus. I speak this by practical experience. I love the Word of God but until, I disciplined myself to give myself to Him in prayer and reading His Word at the beginning of every day, early, even rising early to allow for time before work, I kept slipping or loosing grasp adn have fallen down in times past. And, not all we see as "falling down" is that at all. There are times the Lord is chastising us to bring out more of Himself and die to self to mold us and complete us as we so need. As one said recently, "You cannot ask God for more Faith without expecting Him to answer and get you ready for more Faith." I have had this happen recently in the last few months even. And I struggled yet knew better than to "struggle" for that is not what God wants. In fact the Word says not to struggle with God but to submit and He will exalt us in due season. I have seen times I really thought He wasn't there, I had done something terrible and He "left my building". Not so for He promises He will never leave nor forsake you". So when times come, I stand on His promises of His Word I have within me and submit. How do we "submit"? More time with Jesus. It's that simple. He says we must be "Born Again" and Peter tells us How we get "Born Again": 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Anyone not "Born Again" of His Incorruptible seed, is truly not Born Again. Notice the Word "Incorruptible" also. We are full of "corruption". We are born (as babies in flesh) in corruption, we are raised in corruption and, we are exposed and take on corruption. But when God's Word comes alive in us, all that "corruption" starts disappearing and "incorruptible" Power takes hold where we do not fall or fail. You mention that your husband Jerry does not believe "like you" and I am not sure how you believe for there are many differing beliefs even within one denominaiton often. But, if you just put all your Trust and Belief in Jesus, in His Word, doing just what He says, you will see mirocles and victory in your own soul and life plus, it will spill forth into Jerry's, I guarantee it! It will be upto Jerry whether he takes it on or not but, God won't let him be comfortable around His presence in you without a pull and desire for more being planted in him.

First, I thank you sincerely for your kind words. On this issue I would disagree with you. John 3:3ff has never had a natural birth meaning attached to it. Nicodemus is speaking of being physically born, assuming that by being Jewish he was already in the Kingdom. Jesus counters that and says that what is flesh is flesh, but what is born of the 'Spirit is Spirit. But that rebirth uses water with the Spirit. It is water and Spirit. There is no other text dealing with baptism that disagrees, they all confirm that it is truly by water and the Spirit. The Church has always separated the two into baptism and Chrismation. The annointing with Oil of the Holy Spirit as part of the baptism ceremony. They have always gone hand-in-hand. If one checks it as a Berean, one will find that this is how the Church has understood and practiced it. It was practiced and believed as such before either John or Peter recorded it for us. That is why it is stated as such in the Bible. Hi Thaddaeus! Well I pray you consider and pray about it and not keep locked in to doctrines taught. Do you mind if I ask which Church you belong to? Your theologies put forth to Mutran seem familiar along Episcopal / Anglican or Catholic?

Uh .... no! Where is it? I don't see ads "above". I have on other forums like Delphi but not here. I hope George is screening the Google ads! That just wouldn't be right on a Christian Board.

There are many "beliefs" we learn from men (as Wayne (Phil 2:12) and I have been discussing) that can only be removed by the Holy Spirit leading each of us through the Word. I have had my own theologies changed several times. Even those by Mentors and Teachers the Lord put before me, some were wrong as I pressed through The Word. The best way I have discovered is to just present it lovingly (not always adept at that but learning lol) and let The Holy Spirit have His way. Debating and arguing is not profitable for any of us and when I used to do that, the Lord showed me that I was using the "pulpit" and His Word as a whip and whipping post and He does not like that. He does not need to spank me twice over an issue! I pray Thaddeus sees the Word and checks it as a Berean and God reveals His Truth. I like Thaddeus and have seen some wise things of the Lord in his posts. Blessings in Jesus Brother Ron Cruise

none: I certainly did not mean to infer you would "run away" but, in my experience of late, two women we prayed for and counselled, one left her husband, moved in a boyfriend and claims it was based upon what I said??????? Never even indicated that! So, I cautiously put some things out there up front. No offense intended. Biblicist probably put it best though doesn't sound like he will talk with your pastor (the vampire statement) either but, it is always worth a try. You say from a "non-Christian way" you love him very much. Feed on that and feed it to him. Submission to Jesus will lead you in what you need and should do. I believe that the Glory of God in Christ Jesus will shine through from you, as Paul put it in Corinthians to bring your husband around. Pray for him, love him as you always have, don't nag him about anything. Major disagreements will occur but, he doesn't see your world as you see it. And Jesus "changes" all of us. We may not think we can be somebody lilke "Suzi-homemaker" but, He makes us better and more complete into His Image. God doesn't want you to be "lil' Miss Suzi-Homemaker" either......He wants us all to be conformed to the Image of Jesus: (Romans 8:29) That's all any of us can do and should do.

Thaddeus: If I may interject something, that is not the way it has always been understood by All Believers. There has been a dividing line all the way back as to Jesus' statement of Born Again of "water and spirit". Looking to the vernicular flow of His words and the conversation with Nicodemus we see that Jesus first pointed to "Born Again" and Nicodemus being "fleshly confused" saw no way to be "born" except by natural means out of the womb...out of "water". Please bear with me on this for I in no way exclude water baptism in doctrine but we need to see the importance through clear and simple understanding of His Word in just what is being said. Jesus then combined it saying: John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Taken together, Jesus is explaining that natural birth, flssh by water, is natural but, that man must be born of Spirit, so both to exist and see the Kingdom of God. He is separating the view Nicodemus was narrowed into from the Spiritual to exemplify the Spiritual. And even then Nicodemus did not get it as we read on and Jesus told him how could he understand Heavenly things when he could not understand earthly. John the Baptist also spoke to the Importance of Jesus' Baptism upon man over his own water baptism and that being preferred and when John did meet Jesus and baptised Him, John said he needed Christ's type of Baptism from Jesus more than John's Baptism. Peter was shocked as was the Church in Jerusalem when during his speech at Cornelious' house, The Holy Ghost fell and Baptised the Gentiles of that house and, though they did baptise them with water, ther first came before the lesser water Baptism. But in John 3, Jesus is referring to earthly natural birth out of water.

First, are you funning a scenario or two actual encounters where he said both of those statements? Not that it really matters but I am somewhat confused as you put them both as scenarios (supposed could happens). Then, how do you know he is not a Christian? Has he never accepted Jesus Christ or are you judging him by his desire to watch "garbage tv"? I don't see any abuse but I DO know many people in Christianity seek to "free themselves" from their spouse or at the least, not apply God's Word due to technicalities as they see them. God - Jesus never gave any room for "Technicalities". There is no "gray areas" even when we wish theye was. If your husband did accept Jesus Christ, you have an advocate to go to. If he has never or is not serving Jesus, (and you cannot use tv as a gauge...Jesus said fruits of the spirit), you still only have one advocate - Jesus. Paul dealt with this in Corinthians: 1 Corinthians 7:13-14 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. Basically, he is the man you chose to marry and if his leadership is not Christ centered, then place yourself under Christ's leadership and follow Him yet, giving heed and love more abounding in Christ toward your husband. Jesus never wanted you to argue with your spouse or fight with them. If a spouse is "unBeliever", they are not mindful nor will be of what you deem necessary in Life but still should receive respect as who they are to you. In your case, your husband should be acknowledged and actually treated better by you for Christ's sake. You want Love and Change, show him the Love and Change of Jesus applied personally without yokes and bonds your husband doesn't nor would understand.

"The Sands of men's doctrines and denominations...." I like that! I feel a Sermon coming on out of that!! I find it funny since you came from the SBC and I came out of the PCofG (Pentdcostal Church of God) who did not believe in OSAS but for some reason, I did. I disagreed with two main parts of their theological teachings which blew me out of ordaination in PCofG. Well the OSAS was no biggie for I wasn't locked into it but the pre-Trib on their part while I see and showed them in Scripture with no commentaries needed that only the Pre-Wrath First Resurrection held up. But the Lord, as He did with you, led me through the Scriptures. For me, the one that stood up in my face was "blot out...from The Book of Life..." in Revelation. I did a double take on that one. Even the smallest amount of education and common sense will tell a person; "Hey, wait! You cannot 'blot out' something that was not written in to begin with..." And it was on from that point. I searched and prayed and began to see all the Scriptures that warn or actually prophesy of it happening. One of those I had studied and used (2 Thess 2:1-3) to prove even Paul didn't preach pre-trib but dispelled it as a falsehood to the Thessalonians and bang...."great falling away first.." "Falling away" from what? The Faith in Jesus Christ. And again, the "many shall depart from the Faith giving heed to seducing doctrines..." These are prophecies that will occur no matter what. And of course we see it happening before our eyes especially over the last few decades. But, as I put it before, I am very careful on two fronts anymore. One to not tear up wheat pulling tares but gently show and let the Holy Ghost have His way and, we are cautioned against railing in non-profitable doctrines but to point to the one and only True doctrine in The Word. I like it that way better because when it is clear and concise in His Word, it stops all hainsaying for we can just say; "Hey! Take it up with The Author". PS: I went to my Control Center and turned on Rich Text Editor instead of Standard Editor. Next, I type the paragraph (type a few words...go back highlight, increase font and boldness for my eyes - cataracts) and then type it continuous until I want a break. Then I hit return once. It appears in the screen that it is next line but I found that if you hit CR twice leaving one space lilne, you end up with several setting the paragraphs way apart. Then it automatically puts a blank separator space line between them (sometimes) I hit preview to make sure. hope that helps

And there it is in a nutshell (no pun intended) I really don't like to debate this issue myself for I know that such debate can weaken and undermine the Word of God in a less mature Believer's heart. While Truth must prevail and will, so many circumstances in one's walk can convince a less armored soul they have lost their Salvation. And, like you pointed out and I attempted to do in a earlier post, The Lord is not going to let us get away easily and without much obstacles and beckonings to prevent us from such falling or departing. Persistent, Abiding in Christ in Intimacy of Relatioship is what He revealed to me in October of 2006. As times go forth and the enemy gets stronger and takes dominion over all the earth, many will give up for lack of that Relationship. It really saddened and stirred my soul when I saw that. We must encourage one another to stay in that kind of Faith regardless of what is going on. To draw on His Provision and Strength as He tried to get the children of Israel to do in their Exodus from Egypt. And not all of them "entered His Rest" for they could not "endure the trip" with Faithfulness and Trust but went after their own ways inspite of the many warnings and dealings God sent their way.

AMEN Sierra!! I am going to put forth my own little "gourmet" encounter here. As little as just a few years ago, I had been on Worthy and many other forums for several years. I came to a place where I got quite zealous about doctrines and debating them plus calling "an ace and ace" in Truthfulness. But, as I matured in Christ and expanded into ministry outside of forums, The Lord needed to "correct" my "recepies". The Love of Jesus Christ MUST continue in our compassion as sierra has put forth. First, no one in here is a local member of any other's local fellowship (that I know of) so "Biblical Prescribed rebuke and correction" is out the door except for those in charge of this place and from what I have seen, George has made some wise choices choosing those with compassion and Spiritual maturity in Jesus to moderate and administer the boards. I had even gotten at odds with George a few times and scolded by him. lovingly of course : What I have learned in ministry by The Holy Spirit is that we MUST have an deep Intimate Relationship with Jesus and put that forth to others. We have to show it as well as tell it. People don't desire what we have nor do young believers (babes in Christ) lean their hearts and ears to our advice if they see or feel bitter words or get "beatings" for what ails them. Christ NEVER did that I don't care how many Scriptures anyone can quote, they are reading them wrong if they say He was judging or condemning when He spoke them for He Himself said He did not judge nor come to condemn but to save and seek that which is lost. And anyone that goes beyond that still, is calling Him a liar. It is that simple and I have been guilty in my zeal for Christ and repented of it. Just like many, I am concerned over the falsehoods and itching ears but in all honesty, there is not one thing we can do about it. Nor are we supposed to! We are told of those things as warnings for our own souls and to beware of them. The Gospel and all ZProphecy Centers in and Around One Person; Jesus. It is all from Him, for Him (His Glory), about Him and, In Him. The Supreme Love of God in Grace and Mercy Reconciling men back unto Him. Man if that don't light a fire of compassion in your heart for the lost, you have to be dead! Because it did me. And if one will always look back to where they were before Jesus and honestly look to what actually drew them to Him and to accept Him, you will see it was His compassion and immense Love shining through another unto us. So must we be the same and do the same. I am still not above "rebuke" in my words but I first check them through the Master of Love else I leave the "Gourmet" feast alone and have a hamburger.....know what I mean?

Jess: I don't know if you are still around but I pray you are. I had similar but different situation growing up (violent physical abuse by my dad) but what I have noticed as an adult and especially since going into Ministry is that many many people carry a lot of burdens, disappointments, anger, etc... even into their service in Jesus Christ as Ministers and Preachers let alone the many more who are in Christ as members of His Body. I have prayed and sought for answers and requested of God for wisdom to deal with each and every situation in helping people with these things as well as my own healing I needed. What has come forth is one answer with multiple steps and necessities of fellowship in Jesus Christ. What I noticed most throughout all you post is that you still have pain and disappointments left over and enforced by some of their still current ways. We cannot change anyone, not even our spouses or children to be totally honest and, let alone our parents. The "Changing" is still up to God in Christ Jesus though we would love to help Him along! But, if one reads the Word in total honest and open heart, we see that every Word written is to be taken inward on a Personal basis and never was meant any other way. This is hard and not easy but, a necessity. It is necessary for our healing and wholeness to go forth onto the "next Glory" in Christ "from glory to glory". Jesus said that if we have "any ought" against anyone, we need to rectify that lest we are not heard nor our gifts of Praise and Prayers are falling on "cutoff ears". We have to come to a place of total forgiveness of everyone (parents too) unconditionally and that as God does for us; with forgetting all past trespasses. There is no other kind of forgiveness. When we do this, being open and willing to forget as well as forgive, look out! I am serious and speak from testimony, He will take it away and fill Himself back in in immense and overflowing proportions! Money is not the issue, their souls are. You have said they do not believe and I can tell you that except they ever see a Loving Light of Jesus beaming past all disappointments and pain and trouble, they probably never will. Give or don't give them money as your Spirit is so guided by Christ, none of us has that right to say. The bigger issue is Souls with Jesus. And our own souls that they not fall into trappings and snares of satan who loves to keep those things in a person's heart that he can throw up in our face disappointments that have not even come. If he can "roar like a lion" in our faces long enough knowing what is already inside of us to "prick at" with his roaring, then he will devour us.....by us being consumed in petty grief and anger and all things against the nature of He who saved us, Lord Jesus. These facts are true for every situation we will ever face. Be strong in His Word and in prayer and He will direct your feet on His path and talk with you openly and clearly and you will know the Wisdom of the Lord in not just this matter but, in all matters.

I have been there! I never realized it but, long before I came to Jesus, I always sought assurance of my being needed and worth in most every field of endeavor. In every job, I had to be the best over others, etc.... That did not go away when I came to Jesus. I never got "acceptance" from my dad growing up. No matter what I did, he could do it better (though he really didn't or couldn't). God HAS accepted us! Period! We can never do enough to win His acceptance or too little to loose His acceptance. His acceptance of us is based solely on Jesus' work on the Crose, our acceptance of His "Finished Work" and that He IS God revealed in the flesh and Rose Again. You don't "earn that" ..... You "Accept that" willingly and lovingly into your heart and follow Him out of the Same Love He Loves us with. You speak of "getting yourself into trouble..." and I don't need more info or clarification but believe I fully understand what you are saying. None of us are perfected when we come to Christ. He cleanses out many things perhaps right away and takes up residence in us. We can "Grieve Him (The Holy Ghost)" by several types of willful acts that we bulldoze right through His convictions but, we keep slipping into bad decisions and habits because we fail to go all the way and abide always in Him. When we put more of our life, time, effort into Jesus, His Word, Prayer, just talking openly even with Him, than we do all the other things and issues and people in our lives, we lack that Strength and Power He is trying to give us. That is why He said to Love Him more and Abide in Him...not for His Benefit but ours. Oh it is a benefit to Him in His Pleasure for we were created for His Pleasure, to be Loving and Loved in His Wonderous Presence. I did a sermon recently showing that though we were Created in His Image, we no longer are since Adam fell. This is proven in one Scripture: Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. We need to be "Conformed" to Jesus' Image and we are "Predestinated" to be so. If we were still or already in His Image, no need to be "Conformed to His Image". So, taking this deeper, Jesus also said we must be "Born Again" and hear me on this for many people really miss this.., The Scripture confirms HOW we are Born Again in : 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Keep hanging in there and get deeper into His Word and keep going back over the Word repeating it to yourself and finding Jesus in every place from OT through the NT and hide His Word in you repeating it to yourself and Believe all He said. Soon, you will be less of your "doubtful self" and more Jesus and His Strength. This seems like a foolish "child's game" for first graders but, I tell you it works! And did not God say He calls the Foolish and does the Foolish things to confound the wise? Amen! And again He says to us to become like little children to see and accept His Kingdom. Amen! You will never feel accepted or assured until you get into accepting His Assurances and Acceptance. I know! Amen!

I don't about Florida but, in Oregon, to disolve a marriage under the same conditions (used a self file paperwork) I had to file at the County where she resided and serve her as well. There wasn't any issue, she wanted the divorce but, refused to go with me to sign in a Notary's presence. All information had to be detailed on the filing papers. Because I left the "Children" area blank, I had to amend it plus lilst all her previous names from her maiden up to mine (last names). I didn't know one of them so the clerk looked up our marriage, came back with a gimaced look and said "no wonder..." That is when I found out I was #10 she had married within her 40 year old life. Anyway, you should have been served or notified. They also may not have your address or correct address. If you have the filing docket number, you should be able to check the status. That is what I did and found out I needed the anddendum about "No Children". They claim they mailed it but I never received it and wouldn't have known if I hadn't called.

If it is helpful or encouraging to someone, I pray it helps. It is not easy for me to tell of my marriage plight for I always wanted to be married once and forever. My family was plaqued with divorce, adultery, etc... and Mom always raised us to "not air your dirty laundry.." Amazingly, it was the Lord that led me to first share my testimony with others and it touched and changed several. Then He reminded me that we reach people by our testimonies. For a while I cleaned it up but that was dishonest and He convicted me for it. Much that happened in my married life was either me or poor decisions. I put no blame (I used to) on any ex-wife. I was not faithful after I found my first wife was not. After I gave up in that first year, I went back to my old ways and slept around also. Once busted for the drugs is when I decided to make a change and gave her a chance for I had really been no better by cheating just because she was. I never did that again yet, I had many other issues including a bad rage temper instilled by my dad in all his boys. I praise God He got that out when He called me the first time. I have no doubt had I not got angry and backslid, that marriage might have worked but, I cannot know and certainly would not trade what I have today for it or anything else! Funny, though, God knew it would end by the vision He gave me 17 years before it did end. That fact also helped lead me back to Him for by that vision, I knew in my heart He knew then what path I would take and, like the Prodigal son, He loved me and wanted me to come back to Him inspite of my ways. And when I finally focused all my energy and needs into a Relationship with Him, not compromising or settling for less than His best and His Choice......man! Did He ever deliver! But the most beautiful to me is that He made my heart so new and vibrant and actually, not like anything I have ever had before in Him!

Far too much emphasis regarding loss of salvation is based on works... verse 15 clarifies that all of an individuals works may be burned but that individual is saved by grace through faith, yet so as by fire removing the works that are not deemed righteous unto God...if nothing remains, well it is only salvation that you have and will be looking up at those in the Kingdom who have achieved a greater reward for the works that were refined by the fire and not destroyed by it. I think the parable of the Kings talents in Mathew 25 is also a great example. Works is about rewards, working out your salvation is working out where you will stand in the Kingdom. In Christ CJ Blessings in Jesus CJ, The term "working out our salvation.." is not a bad term yet it is definitely about "Salvation". What I have found through much prayer and study is that James also dealing with Faith with or without works plus all the Scriptural evidence against OSAS concepts leads to a very clear and evidential dividing of terms. There are "works of the flesh" and "Work of Faith". The "Work of Faith" is bound up in Abiding and Living in Jesus, the True Vine. When you take all the evidential Scripture that points to "losing one's salvation" (which I don't believe you can lose it but must forsake or depart willingly and against many odds and struggles of Christ beckoning and calling out to us), we see that a different work than flesh is evident. Throughout the Whole Gospels Jesus emphasized a Relationship with Him beyond any we have ever or will ever have with anyone else so that it makes the others appear as "hate" by comparison. He commanded this and even said that any who do not are not worthy of Him. Taking all He put forth (and remember His Words alone are LIFE....not any other man's) we see a necessity that if we are to stand strong against all the wiles and attacks of the enemy from every front, only this "ABIDING" .... In communication and prayer and His Word (Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God), will increase Jesus within us and lessen "self" so that we don't fall prey to the lusts of the flesh and not only that but His Power only comes through that deep Intimacy to conquer and overcome ALL within us. This is the "Word of Faith". It is inherent and intrensic ro our Faith in Jesus. And by it, we are cleansed, strengthened and made wise in God and produce the other "good works" naturally which are good and fruitful but not dependent upon Salvation. The Work of Faith is wrapped up in the "...through Faith.." part of Eph 2:8=9.