TrevorL

Greetings shiloh357,

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

"Son of God" is a claim to deity, a claim to being God.

My understanding of the concept of a father and a son is that a son is begotten by a father, and this includes conception and birth. Then there is a period of learning and development in youth and then maturity. All of these aspects apply to the birth and development of the Son of God. It finally includes his resurrection from the dead and he is now in every aspect The Son of God, the Son of God the Father Luke 1:35, Romans 1:1-4. I suggest that the Trinitarian concept ignores the language and teaching of the Scriptures.

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings again KiwiChristian,

6 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Trinitarian bias?

Then ALL transators of ALL Bibles are trinitarians.

Not all translators have been Trinitarians. Please consider Tyndale’s translation of Exodus 3:14:

Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Now I do not know if Tyndale was a Trinitarian or not, but somewhere between the 1520s and 1611 there was a change agreed upon regarding Exodus 3:14. I do not know how many of the intervening Bibles translated this as “I will be”, but Tyndale understood “Ehyeh” as “I will be” in both Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 3:14, while the KJV translators translated “Ehyeh” as “I will be” in Exodus 3:12 and “I AM” in Exodus 3:14.

6 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Tell me, what translation do YOU use?

I have mainly used the KJV. I now also use an interlinear RV/KJV when I read a chapter of the Bible each morning. I now also read from a NASB Study Bible in most of our meetings. Usually the reader or speaker uses the KJV, but not exclusively. If I study a chapter or verse I sometimes compare a number of translations, and use a few reference books for understanding the range of meaning for a particular word.

6 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

The Bible clearly shows that there are three "beings" that are referred to as "God" ( deity ).

Judges and also Angels are sometimes referred to, by using the word “Elohim”, and this is because they represent God, not because they are God. I believe that there is only one God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. When the Divine titles and Name are used for Jesus, it is because he represents His Father, not because He is God Himself.

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings again KiwiChristian,

15 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

But Jesus answered them in John 10:30-36, dismissing their accusation. Jesus states in verse 36 that he is the Son of God. He also gives other answers to their accusation in these verses which should also be considered, especially where the Judges in Israel were called "gods" or "Elohim".

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings again KiwiChristian,

15 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Yes, the KJV added the word "he". Your explanation for this is just your assumption or your opinion.The KJV translated CERTAINLY knew and believed that Jesus is God.

Yes the KJV translators were Trinitarians and they show their bias in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14. But even these Trinitarians did not translate the same phrase in John 8:24 and John 8:28 as "I AM". Translating both of these as “I am he” shows that the KJV translators were not connecting these with Exodus 3:14. This rendition gives a different sense and has the same sense as when the blind man used this expression in John 9:9.

15 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

The phrase "I will be" is the ridiculous JW claim which is totally false.

Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins render the Divine Name as “I will be”. The JWs could have some credit if they endorse the future tense, but in general I do not accept JW teachings including the JW exposition of the Divine Name, especially as they use “Jehovah” instead of “Yahweh”. As stated previously the future tense is confirmed by Exodus 3:12 and 6:1-8. These speak of God’s future activity associated with His Name to bring Israel out of Egypt and into the Promised Land.

15 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

The correct original is "μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι egō ἐγώ" which shows that divine name.

The Divine Name was given in Hebrew, not Greek.

15 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

No, it does not mean that.

I suggest that you consider Peter’s exposition of Psalm 110:1 in Acts 2, where he says that God has exalted Jesus to become both Lord and Christ. Psalm 110:1 is the clearest and simplest verification of the distinction between Yahweh who is God the Father, and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, David's Lord. Psalm 110:1 is extensively quoted and expounded in the Book of Hebrews. None of these quotations and expositions of Psalm 110:1 in any way support what you claimed.

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings KiwiChristian,

2 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

1. Moses: The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Who appeared to Moses at the burning bush revealed His Name as ‘I AM’ (Exodus 3:14,15). Jesus revealed that He was the true God by stating that ‘Before Abraham was, I AM’, and ‘If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.’ (John 8:58,24).

Please note that the KJV translators rendered the phrase as “I am he” in both John 8:24 and John 8:28, showing that they did not consider that Jesus was quoting Exodus 3:14 on these two occasions. I also notice that you carefully avoided John 8:28 as this does not teach Jesus’ divinity, but his humanity. These two verses set the context of the usage of this expression in John 8:58, and it also should be translated “I am he”. Thus even here, where the KJV is incorrect, Jesus is not alluding to or quoting Exodus 3:14.Rather Exodus 3:14 is better translated as “I will be” as per Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins, and has no direct connection with John 8:24,28,58. This future tense is confirmed by Exodus 3:12 and 6:1-8.

2 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

2. David: God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ (Psalm 110:1). Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God.

Psalm 110:1 does not suggest that Jesus is God, rather it teaches that Jesus would be David’s Lord. Please also note that in comparison to the title of this thread, Jesus is shown to be distinct from Yahweh, and was destined to sit at Yahweh’s right hand. The answer is David's Lord would be the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings KiwiChristian,

58 minutes ago, KiwiChristian said:

The angel said to her “that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”Lk. 1:35

Each one of your statements could be considered and answered. I noticed that when you quoted Luke 1:35 you cut off the start of the verse. This verse teaches that God the Father was to be the father of Jesus and Mary was to be his mother. Luke 1:35 says “therefore”, that is, because God the Father was to be Jesus’ father Jesus was also to be the Son of God. This is where I would start in any discussion of the role and status of Jesus

Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34  Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
There is One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings again ayin jade,

To add to my previous post, the Psalm can be considered from David’s perspective and from Jesus’ perspective. David considers the creation and gives praise to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. When Jesus considers the Psalm and considers the creation, he addresses Yahweh as His Father, calling Him Lord of heaven and earth, thus acknowledging the Father as the Creator, and gives thanks to God that an understanding of his preaching had been hid from the wise and prudent, but had been revealed to those of childlike disposition, such as his immediate disciples. Thus I suggest that although it is true that God’s work has been manifested in and through our Lord Jesus Christ, the praise to God in Psalm 8:1 is addressed by David and Jesus to Yahweh, God the Father.

Also to add to the suggestion that this Psalm was written to commemorate David’s victory over Goliath, David is also of childlike disposition as suggested in Psalm 8:2, and he was only a youth, but with God’s help was able to overcome the enemy. As a result of his victory over the chief representative of the Kingdoms of men, the way was open for David to establish the Kingdom of God, and God blessed him in the forthcoming years to fulfil that role, tentatively God put all things under David's feet. This was nevertheless only a shadow of the fullness of what was accomplished in Christ..

On ‎1‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 9:42 AM, ayin jade said:

Psa 8:5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels – It might be thought to refer to the creation of man in the image and likeness of God; but as it must be understood of the human nature of Christ. Though rather this clause refers to the humiliation of Christ in his human nature, as it is interpreted in Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Than the angels –  The authority, however, of the Aramaic, the Septuagint, the Syriac, and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, would seem sufficient to show that the meaning is that of angels.

I suggest that this phrase "made him a little lower than the angels" is a succinct summary of Genesis 1:26-27 where God the Father invited the angels to participate in the creation of man. This then is used as a framework to speak of the creation of Jesus, when Jesus was conceived and became the Son of God because God was His Father, and the Son of Man (Adam) through Mary Luke 1:35. As Mary's son he partook of human nature, and was thus subject to death as all other humans after Adam. Hebrews 2 uses the fact that he needed to be lower in nature than the angels so that he could suffer death, and through this death resulting in his resurrection and exaltation bring salvation. Hebrews 2 thus reveals all of these features by considering and expounding the terms of Psalm 8.

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings ayin jade,

11 hours ago, ayin jade said:

The occasion on which the psalm was composed is not known.

This Psalm is referenced several times in the New Testament.

I have had an interest in Psalm 8 for a number of years, and hope to add a few brief additional comments to your fairly thorough coverage. My suggestion is that Psalm 8 has the background of the defeat of Goliath by David. This is based on the view of JW Thirtle that the titles of the Psalms are actually the sub-titles, and the title Muth-labben can be understood as the death of the champion. You have referenced the principle quotations of Psalm 8 in the NT. Another important allusion / quotation is Matthew 11:25-27. This has a bearing on how we understand Psalm 8, and this is compared with your comment below.

11 hours ago, ayin jade said:

Psa 8:1  O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

O Lord – Hebrew, יהוה  Yahweh. It is an address to God by his chosen and special title.

Our Lord – The word used here - אדני  'âdônay - means properly master, lord, ruler, owner, and is such a title as is given to an owner of land or of slaves, to kings, or to rulers, and is applied to God as being the ruler or governor of the universe. The meaning here is, that the psalmist acknowledged Yahweh to be the rightful ruler, king, or master of himself and of all others. He comes before him with the feeling that Yahweh is the universal ruler - the king and proprietor of all things.

How excellent is thy name – How excellent or exalted art thou - the name being often used to denote the person. The idea is,” How glorious art thou in thy manifested excellence or character.”

How excellent is thy name in all the earth! – How illustrious is the name of Jesus throughout the world! His incarnation, birth, humble and obscure life, preaching, miracles, passion, death, resurrection, and ascension, are celebrated through the whole world. His religion, the gifts and graces of his Spirit, his people - Christians - his Gospel and the preachers of it are everywhere spoken of. No name is so universal, no power and influence so generally felt, as those of the Savior of mankind. Amen.

Matthew 11:25-27 (KJV) ²⁵ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. ²⁶ Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. ²⁷ All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus takes up the words of Psalm 8 and interprets and applies them to his position. Instead of addressing Yahweh, he addresses God as his Father, and calls God the Father “Lord of heaven and earth”. This in itself is a succinct summary of Psalm 8:1,3. It is interspersed with a similar allusion to Psalm 8:2, speaking of the babes and sucklings. Verse 27 above also takes up the expression “all things”, and this is also the subject of Psalm 8:6 where God the Father as a result of God the Father exalting the Son of Man that then God passes on to Jesus, the Son of God and Son of Man the rulership, “putting all things under his feet”.

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings again Keras,

10 hours ago, Keras said:

It just shows that is a bad idea to guess things about the end times! Who the 24 Elders are, we simply aren't told. Leave it at that.

Glad you believe in only one way of salvation; Jesus.  But you did say 2 posts ago, that the Jews who still look forward to their Messiah, expect a different kind of salvation.  This contradicts Romans 9:27, Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5, +

Why do we differ on what God has planned for Hs people in the last days?  It is all comprehensively prophesied in our Bibles.

We only need to look at this forum to see that there is a wide range of opinions, based in each person's estimation on the Scriptures, but in my estimation each of us are to some extent subject to our environment, partly wrong deductions and other factors.

23 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The household is made up of the faithful past and present, drawn from Jews and Gentiles, such as Isaiah and Paul both Jews, the one looking forward to Jesus, the other directly confronted by Jesus. Many Gentile believers are also mentioned in the NT. Yes there is only one household of God.

 

I can see how you read the above as my statement was ambiguous. What I was trying to say was that in his day Isaiah was still looking forward to the appearance of the Messiah. I do believe that after Jesus' appearance it was and is necessary for the Jews to believe in Jesus for salvation.

Kind regards Trevor

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Despite you saying 'there is only one Household of God, you still insist on a separation, a different salvation for Jews and Christians.   I have to assume you are a pre-trib rapture to heaven for the Church and the Jews remain for judgement. This is an entirely false teaching that isn't God's plan for His people at all.

I think that the 12 disciples, plus Paul and 11 major OT prophets are the 24 Elders described in Rev 4:4 and seen again in Rev 20:4.  But the rest of the dead, great and small, righteous and evil; including Daniel,  await the GWT judgement; at the end of days.  An indisputable Biblical statement.

Of course this truth destroys the rapture theory, as a removal to heaven necessitates a change to spiritual bodies. But we WILL live in heaven: when God comes to live with mankind for Eternity. Rev 21:1-7  Only then will those accounted worthy be given water from the spring of Life.

Greetings again Keras,

So you would also consign Luke and Timothy to not being in the 1000 years reign of Christ, as well as Daniel and Isaiah and possibly Abraham who rejoiced to see Christ's day. Talk about a separation of the faithful! I am not sure how you suggest that I believe in a different salvation for Jews and Gentiles. Isaiah's prophecy for example is full of references to the Messiah, and his Book is often called the 5th Gospel. Handel's Oratorio is witness to that. There is only one method of salvation, by faith in Christ, the things of the Kingdom and Name Acts 8:5,12. I do not believe in the rapture. We differ on many other things.

Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Keras,

54 minutes ago, Keras said:

Trevor,  Who is Jesus' household now? The Jews or Christians?

Remember there is only one people of God: John 10:16, 1 Cor 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:11, +

The household is made up of the faithful past and present, drawn from Jews and Gentiles, such as Isaiah and Paul both Jews, the one looking forward to Jesus, the other directly confronted by Jesus. Many Gentile believers are also mentioned in the NT. Yes there is only one household of God.

54 minutes ago, Keras said:

Yes, I do believe that all the dead must wait until the Great White Throne Judgement, because that is what scripture says. Rev 20:11-15  Only the Martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation come to life again..... Rev 20:4   This resurrection does not confer immortality, as that doesn't happen until the Book of Life is opened.

No, I do not accept your use of Revelation 20:4-5 in an absolute sense. Will Paul, 2 Timothy 4:8, and the Apostles be raised at the beginning of the 1000 years, or as you seem to imply, at the end of the 1000 years?

Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Also Daniel 12:2, who are the “many” and when is this? Is Daniel being instructed that he will be amongst this many, and again is this at the end of the 1000 years?

Daniel 12:13 (KJV): But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Kind regards

Trevor

13 hours ago, Keras said:

Can you please provide scriptural support for this idea?   When, exactly; is anyone resurrected before Jesus Returns?

Re my website: As there are very few preachers and teachers who even mention Bible prophecy, there is a great lack of understanding among Christians about what God has planned for His people in these end times.  Far too many just have the 'pan belief'; hoping that things will pan out for the best.  This is a poor attitude and leaves people 'in the dark'. 1 Thess 5:4

Greetings again Keras,

I believe that Jesus returns firstly to his household, to raise the faithful dead and then unite them with the faithful living. This appears to be the sequence suggested in Isaiah 26:19-20. He then judges the nations verse 21. In your previous reply you suggested that Isaiah 26:19 applies to the end of the millennium, but do you believe that Isaiah and the faithful dead up until his time have to wait to the end of the millennium before they are resurrected?

There are many Scriptures that could be quoted to suggest that Christ comes to judge his household first and then judges and subjugates the nations. A few samples:

Daniel 12:1-2 (KJV): ¹ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is similar to Isaiah 26:19-21 as it depicts the resurrection and the time of trouble, and the time of trouble is really drawn from the events of Daniel 11:40-45, a period much greater than one day as you seem to claim.

1 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): ¹ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick (living) and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; ⁶ For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. ⁷ I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: ⁸ Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.  

Again we have the same elements as Isaiah 26:19-21. Jesus is to return to judge the living and the dead, and hence he must first raise the dead. Amongst those raised and rewarded will be the Apostle Paul, as he clearly states. He will also at this time set up his kingdom on the earth, and this will involve judging and subjecting the nations with the outcome as depicted in Isaiah 2:1-4.

I appreciate the fact that you attempt to teach prophecy by means of your website. But as I stated, both in this thread and in our discussion on the thread “Jerusalem Day and the 2300 Days of Daniel 8”, I have a different understanding of these things. Without explaining how I understand the seals, trumpets, bowls and the 1260 days, perhaps the following is a clear indication of some of our differences.

21 hours ago, Keras said:

The Great tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls happens after the time gap of the Seventh Seal. It will last for 1260 days.

Kind regards

Trevor

8 hours ago, Keras said:

This prophecy is about the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

This refers to the forthcoming terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. We are plainly told to seek shelter on that one [literal] Day.

More details on what the Lord has told us He will do at; logostelos.info

Greetings again Keras,

I believe that Isaiah 26:19 applies to the resurrection of Isaiah and the faithful before the Millennium. I believe that the "day" is a period of time rather than a literal day, again before the millennium. I have had a glance at your website and cannot endorse much of what you claim there and other detail that you mention in this thread.

Kind regards Trevor  

On ‎7‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 1:34 PM, Keras said:

Although David's Psalm/Prophecy seems to infer that the Lord's people will be removed to a safe place in the forthcoming time of trouble, nowhere is this idea clearly stated, but many prophesies reiterate how the Lord will protect His own through His Day of wrath:

Greetings Keras,

The following does seem to indicate that the faithful will be separated and protected during part at least of the time of trouble. And note verse 19 seems to also indicate that this will be the time of the resurrection of the dead.

Isaiah 26: 19-21 (KJV): ¹⁹ Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. ²⁰ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. ²¹ For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Psalm 27:5 can be applied to any time of trouble or difficulty, but it could thus also apply to the coming time of trouble.

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings “Solomons Porch”,

On ‎2‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 0:57 AM, SOLOMONS PORCH said:

I hope I am posting this in the right area, if not I apologize not sure where to post. I am working with someone trying to help them and they have been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The voices tell him hes going to hell and he is going to die this saturday. He has been on meds for 7 yrs and it hasnt helped. He said (the meds)  it only keeps them from being "not as mean". This voice tells him how much it hates the Jews and calls him Hitler, tells him that he is worthless and going to hell. The voice tells him there is a coffin under the house and constantly drives him crazy trying to make him go dig under the house, it keeps telling him this is just a game. It prevents him from praying and he feels he cant be saved. I am asking for testimonies of those of you that may have been healed and or delivered from this and if you could tell me as to how it came about. Im looking for deeper answers for him, any suggestions or experiences you could share would be great. Thank you 

I can only give a few thoughts based upon my own experience. I have been admitted to a mental hospital on two occasions but possibly my condition was and is different to your friend. There is a whole range of different mental disorders, and although I was diagnosed at the time as a paranoid schizophrenic, most of my disorder dissipated after my confinements. They were still there in a reduced form before and after, and even now after another 35 years they still persist if allowed to feed upon themselves.

Firstly as far as medication is concerned, I was given some medication after the second visit, but this was mainly to reduce mental activity, and it made me slow, dull, lethargic and nauseated and I weaned myself off these. On the other hand I have taken the responsibility to admit a close relative to hospital on five occasions, and apparently each time was when he went off his medication. It appears that he will need this medication for life, but this is modern medication that seems to be much more effective. I will leave this in the hands of the experts and his doctor.

For my own part I consider I maintain my mental health by regular physical activity, proper and consistent sleep and occupying my mind with general interest and Biblical considerations. I was also blessed in being able to maintain steady, consistent and interesting work until retirement. In the midst of my disorders I gradually learnt to rely on some Scriptures and some encouraging hymns, and these are comforts to me even now when pressures arise. These may not mean much to the casual reader, but Psalms 34, 42-43, Matthew 11:25-30 developed comfort and rest and calm my thoughts to this day. I continue to add additional Scripture for meditation and edification such as Psalm 8 and Isaiah 6, and seek to get the most out of our Bible Classes by considering the subject before and after the meetings, such as the last class, Isaiah 35.

Also in the many years I have sought replacement therapy, where thoughts and actions which I am aware as being bad or inadequate are replaced over some extensive period by edifying thoughts and actions after the examples given by Paul in Ephesians 4:20-32. These thoughts gradually replace the bad patterns of thoughts and actions as illustrated in the interesting example in v28.

I hope you may be able to help your friend to gradually improve as we wait for our Lord to return to fulfil Isaiah 35 with all its blessings, words that encouraged John the Baptist in his hour of trial.

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings again Dennis1209,

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 11:58 PM, Dennis1209 said:

But I can find no place in the Bible that explains if the four heads of the Cherubim are representations, symbolic or figurative? The rule of thumb is, the Bible is not taken literally enough.

Another factor in deciding whether the four heads are literal or not is to compare Ezekiel 1:10 where each of the four Cherubim had four faces, while in Revelation 4:7 the living creatures had only one head each, and individually these were a lion, a calf, a man, and a flying eagle.

Perhaps a reasonably simple theme to explain is the symbol of the calf’s foot. This is given in the following:  

Ezekiel 1:7 (KJV):  And their feet were straight^d feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf’s foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.  

But when we come to the Book of Revelation this figure is incorporated in the symbolic Son of Man:

Revelation 1:13-15 (KJV):  ¹³ And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. ¹⁴ His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; ¹⁵ And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.  

Both of these are allusions to the concept of threshing and the altar of burnt offering. Both figures are combined in the following:

Malachi 4:1-3 (KJV):  ¹ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. ² But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. ³ And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.  

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings Dennis1209,

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Most symbolism can be interpreted in the Bible by comparing scripture to scripture, or somewhere else in the Bible. This seems to be especially true, the New Testament explains the Old Testament. 

The symbolism in Revelation can be interpreted elsewhere in Revelation, or other places in the Bible such as Daniel, and vice versa. But I can find no place in the Bible that explains if the four heads of the Cherubim are representations, symbolic or figurative? The rule of thumb is, the Bible is not taken literally enough.

From my perspective some of the symbols in Revelation are more obscure than the Cherubim and Seraphim, and even these carry over into Revelation 4:6-9. Perhaps you have not considered the furniture of the Moses’ Tabernacle. Each of these items, the altar, the laver, the table of showbread, the lampstand, the altar of incense are symbolic of greater things. The Ark of the Covenant is likewise symbolic and the component parts and contents, the mercy seat, the cherubim, Aaron’s rod that budded and other aspects each contribute to depict the fullness in Christ.

My personal studies have given me an insight to the Seraphim, but I will not elaborate except to suggest that John 12 helps to unlock the meaning of these, both in the symbol itself and the wings as depicted in Isaiah 6.

As far as the Cherubim are concerned, if each Scripture where they occur is considered then a better picture will result. Perhaps it could be claimed that it is a quantum leap to believe that the fourfold figures of man, lion, eagle and ox are depicting a Divine representation of these characteristics, firstly angelic (so that we may learn), but principally in Christ and his disciples.

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings again Ezra,

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

Since God spoke to Ezekiel during those *visions* it should be evident that these were the real cherubim accompanying the LORD, and the apostle John also saw the real cherubim surrounding God's throne in Heaven.

Yes I agree that God spoke to Ezekiel, but I also believe that an Angel represented God and spoke on His behalf as on many other occasions. The picture supplied above is interesting as it gives a realistic assessment of one being, but having the heads of four different beings, a lion, an ox, an eagle and a man. In Ezekiel 1 there is an overall picture though, and it seems to indicate that there are four of these composite Cherubim, each with their wings outstretched and touching each other’s wings. There are also accompanying rings or wheels, and there is above, in the centre, a likeness of a throne and the likeness of a man upon the throne, and his appearance was associated with fire. The Cherubim are also active, as if going on a mission and returning. They are living creatures, and the overall vision was like a stormy wind or whirlwind at first sight. 

Later on in the prophecy the Cherubim become active in judging the city of Jerusalem and accompany the glory or the Shekinah Glory out of the Most Holy Place because of the apostasy of Judah. I suggest that all this is symbolic, revealed to Ezekiel, but outworked in the destruction of the Temple by Nebuchadnezzar.

Kind regards
Trevor

Just now, Ezra said:

I hope that you don't mean that they do not exist as described. They do symbolize Divine qualities and we can learn much from them. But they are extremely strange in their appearance, and one could even say *frightful*.

Greetings Ezra,

They are often revealed in the aspect of judgement, but I believe that Ezekiel 1 was a vision and not the real thing. Compare also Isaiah 6 and the vision of the King - Priest surrounded by Seraphim - again a vision and not the real thing, even though Isaiah interacts with the Seraphim. I believe that the Cherubim in Genesis 3 are angels enacting a particular role, but the ultimate teaching of all these Cherubic figures is fulfilled in Christ. The presence of these Cherubim in the Most Holy Place and inwrought on the Vail between the Holy and Most Holy point forward to their incorporation in our Lord Jesus Christ, in whom the fullness of the Divine character was inwrought. 

Kind regards Trevor

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 2:13 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Has anyone seen a picture / representation by a Christian interpreting Ezekiel's vision that 'might' accurately represent what a Cherubim looks like? Or are any of you capable of picturing Ezekiel's description in your mind? 

Greetings Dennis1209,

I suggest that the first step in understanding the Cherubim is to recognise that they are symbolic creatures representing Divine qualities revealed fully in our Lord Jesus Christ, and that each believer needs to incorporate these by following his example.

Thus Jesus reveals kingly qualities as he is the lion of the tribe of Judah. He is a servant revealing the qualities depicted in the ox. He has spiritual sight and wisdom as per the eagle and he was manifested as a man, and this could also indicate his priestly function.

Kind regards Trevor 

Greetings ayin jade,

I was interested in reading your exposition of Psalm 2. I find the Psalms very interesting and instructive. I have studied similar to your method with a few Psalms, Psalm 1, 8, 145 and a few others but now you have awakened my interest in Psalm 2 and your notes will be helpful.

It is interesting to compare the difference between Psalm 1 and Psalm 2. Psalm 1 sets out the wicked and the righteous (one) in almost a formal comparison, using figurative language and states their ultimate destiny. Psalm 2 in a sense deals with the same subject in a dramatic way, with real life events.   

On ‎16‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 8:49 AM, ayin jade said:

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

I have yet to fully analyse what you have stated, but from my initial assessment I would see the greater fulfilment of this Psalm occurring at the Second Coming of Jesus, when he will come to sit upon the throne of David in literal Mount Zion and as a result the nations will at first oppose him. But he will be triumphant and rule over the earth from Jerusalem during the 1000 years.

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings GoldenEagle,

On 6/24/2016 at 10:33 PM, GoldenEagle said:

I'd never heard this before. What do you think? 

I have listened/watched a video today by most probably the same people. This one is from a UK source. I found it very interesting, well presented with a lot of documentation.

The subject was “Brexit and the Bible – What next?”

Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL,

On ‎6‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 1:33 AM, WilliamL said:

The time of the end includes everything from the birth pangs, the Trib and the Rapture through to the very end of the end, when Jesus physically returns to the Mount of Olives.

Even in the above short statement there is evidence that we have a different overview of the sequence and detail of the events. I do not believe in the rapture (as it is generally described) and I believe that the return of Jesus to the Mount of Olives is NOT the very end of the end, but early in the sequence of events.

On ‎6‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 1:33 AM, WilliamL said:

Everything from 11:40 onward tells of events in their sequential order, just like everything else from 11:1 onward does.

I agree that Daniel 11:40-45 is sequential, but I believe that Daniel 12:1 is positioned in the middle of Daniel 11:40-45. The invasion from the north through the Holy Land and into Egypt and then a return thrust back into Jerusalem will be the time of trouble for the inhabitants of the Holy Land.

My understanding of Daniel 11:40-45 is that in 1917 the King of the South, Britain and Commonwealth countries pushed at the then King of the North Turkey and drove them out of the land. Seeing you like horses, one phase of this pushing was when our Australian farmers riding their stock horses made a successful charge at Beer-Sheba and overran the Turkish position. This overall event of removing the Turks from Holy Land is part of the larger series of events mentioned in Revelation 16:15 the drying up of the Euphrates River, that is the complete contraction of the Turkish Empire, and this started in the early 1800s. The last phase of his drying up will be when a new King of the North comes against Turkey and overthrows it, and from Ezekiel 38 I suggest that this new power will be Russia.

One voice of protest at the northern invasion is the Merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof. While in 1917 Britain was involved as a land based military force in pushing Turkey, the passage in Ezekiel 38 seems to indicate a naval power, and again I believe that this will be Britain.   

On ‎6‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 1:33 AM, WilliamL said:

Like so many, you want to explain away the testimony of the text. Birds don't eat trucks and tanks and other instruments of modern warfare. The text says here and in Rev 19 that the birds will eat "the FLESH" of horses, and that is precisely what it means. Likewise, the text says,

Ezek. 38:11 ...a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’—

and that is precisely what it means. Nothing in the verse above describes the Jews in "their present position in the land," like you say.

I will let you grapple with the ‘horses’ concept and the un-walled villages. Evidently part of Isaiah 2:2-4 is inscribed on the wall at the UN building, but I doubt that anyone suggests that swords and ploughs are meant to be literal. We also use the term “guns or butter”. The reverse of Isaiah 2 is found in Joel, where at the beginning of the time of trouble they start to turn ploughs into swords. Does this fit into your literal view of some of these terms depicting warfare, and does the Joel reference fit in with your sequence?  One thing that may change is if the Arabs and Israel arrive at a comprehensive peace treaty, allowing Israel to feel more at ease. I am happy with my present understanding of Ezekiel 38, but some understanding of the detail of all these prophecies could become sharper as time progresses.

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL,

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Ezekiel 38, Zech. 14, and Rev. 16 and 19, yes. Dan. 11:40 - 12:1ff., no.

I can appreciate how you can arrive at a different sequence, emphasising and building upon various pieces of detail. But despite this I will hold onto my view of these being parallel for the moment.

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Dan. 12:1 clearly tells of the beginning of the Tribulation, the time of trouble such as never was, which is soon coming: the beginning of the End Times.

But Daniel 11:40 states that the events depicted in v40-45 are “the time of the end”. I believe that some of the events depicted in Daniel 12 are overlapping Daniel 11:40-45. In other words I believe that the resurrection occurs before the King of the North is destroyed 11:45.

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Ezekiel 38-39 tells of a time unlike today, when people will be living pastoral lives in unwalled and ungated communities in Israel. They are then attacked by armies of horsemen, which horses the birds thereafter eat, as Rev. 19 also says. This is therefore clearly the end of the judgments of the End Times, after the earth has already become depopulated by many physical cataclysms upon earth, and by the wars, famines, and plagues. Therefore, civilization has by that time lost most of its technology, and has reverted back to more primitive modes of existence, including armies mounted upon horses, and most people living in agricultural villages.

I would be reticent to rely upon the language of horses in warfare to establish the sequence. This is written initially for the audience that heard the prophecy, using terms that they could understand. Isaiah speaks of beating swords into ploughs, but we understand the inference that warfare will cease and the huge wealth spent on armaments will be turned to agriculture. But in the days of Isaiah steel or iron was scarce and they would improvise their ploughs for swords before a battle, and after remodify them for ploughing. I do not believe the present walls in Israel are meant to serve the same as walls around a city achieved in the time of the prophet. No present existing wall would stop an invading army using modern weapons and equipment, while in the days of the prophets they besieged a city for 2-3 years before it fell. My belief is that Ezekiel 38 aptly describes the return of the Jews to their land and their present position in the land as agriculturalists and traders, and their confidence in their military security.

Kind regards
Trevor

48 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Ezekiel 38 has nothing to do with the King of the North of Daniel 11. Daniel 11:40ff. deals with events leading up to the Trib; Ezekiel 38-39 deals with events during the close of the Wrath.

Greetings again WilliamL,

I appreciate your response and the difficulty of piecing all these pieces together and the resultant many views on the sequence. This may be your understanding of the sequence of events, and your confidence "has nothing to do with ...", but my assessment is that there is only one King of the North and that the events depicted in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40b-45 are snapshots of the same event. I also believe that these same events are depicted in Zechariah 14, Revelation 16:12-16 and other Scripture.

Kind regards
Trevor