Jump to content

TrevorL

Junior Member
  • Content count

    215
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

123 Excellent

2 Followers

About TrevorL

  • Rank
    Junior Member
  • Birthday 02/14/1944

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Lake Macquarie NSW Australia
  • Interests
    Bible interests include Psalms, Isaiah and Galatians, but also all the Bible and its themes. I enjoy collecting and reading general interest books, but especially Bible related books and resources.

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again enoob57, I believe that the language of Revelation 21 is figurative as there will be sea during the 1000 years. The new heavens and earth of Isaiah 65:17-25 gives literal detail as to what this expression represents and there is no hint of the destruction and replacement of Jerusalem and the earth, but a change, a transition. But the message was always there, and the Servant prophecies of Isaiah clearly indicate that the Messiah would suffer, especially Isaiah 53. Other Scriptures are Psalms 16 and 22 and many others. Jesus upbraided the disciples for not understanding these things: Luke 24:25–27, 44-48 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. Kind regards Trevor
  2. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again enoob57, I suggest that you refer again to the way Jesus uses the word “world” (kosmos S#2889) in John 17:6,9 in its context and the following are a few more examples where Jesus uses the world to describe the Jewish world and not the physical earth: John 15:19 (KJV): If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. John 17:14–16 (KJV): 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Now the earth did not hate the disciples, but the Jewish world, especially centred in the Pharisees and the Sadducees hated both Jesus and the disciples. I believe that destruction by fire is figurative language based in part from the concept of the altar of burnt offering, but also the burning or scattering of the chaff when Jesus returns to judge first his household and then the nations. For example the Parable of the Tares: Matthew 13:30 (KJV): Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:41–43 (KJV): 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. There is some indication in Isaiah that Israel would fail to respond, and there is also the teaching that the preaching would go forth to the Gentiles. Firstly Israel as a whole failed to respond to the teaching of Isaiah and Jesus: Isaiah 6:9–10 (KJV): 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. The 1st Servant Song indicates that the preaching and influence of Jesus would spread to the Gentiles: Isaiah 42:6 (KJV): I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; These two concepts are combined in the 2nd Servant Song, where Israel fails to respond and the way is open for the Gentiles: Isaiah 49:5–6 (KJV): 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. This particular passage is used by Paul to speak about his role as the Apostle to the Gentiles. Kind regards Trevor
  3. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again enoob57, Yes, I agree we seem to be not connecting here. I cannot accept the suggestion that the “world” of John 18 speaks about this earth. Rather I understand the word “world” speaks of the Jewish system of things at that time. Jesus uses the same term in his prayer in John 17, on the same day: John 17:6–10 (KJV): 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Also you speak of the first heaven and earth being destroyed by fire. Many believe that at the return of Jesus the present earth will be burnt by fire, but I believe that this is a figure for judgement, not destruction. The prophecies like Isaiah 2:1-4 give a vision of a period of judgement and then transition to the Kingdom of God. Acts 3:19-21 speak of times of refreshing and restoration with the coming of Jesus, and these times are spoken of by all the prophets. Despite some fire of judgement at his return, the net effect of Jesus’ return is times of refreshing not destruction. Also you seemed to dismiss the prophets in some respects, saying that the Messiah of Isaiah would not be realised. Kind regards Trevor
  4. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again enoob57, This is where we differ. I believe that Isaiah’s prophecies will be fulfilled concerning the Kingdom and the Messiah, when Jesus returns to the earth to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem, and will reign over Israel and the nations for 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. Kind regards Trevor
  5. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again enoob57, Possibly you could clarify this. Undoubtedly we have access to the larger picture. But say an Israelite who lived in Isaiah’s day, he had most of the books up to Isaiah in our Bible and he had Isaiah’s words and Hezekiah’s example which specifically revealed the Coming Messiah. Kind regards Trevor
  6. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again enoob57, I appreciate your comments, but I suggest that there is much more revealed during the period of the Law, for example the Psalms and the Prophets. These are important and remarkable portions of the Word of God. I especially like a selection of some of the Psalms and the prophecy of Isaiah. There are many quotations of these in the New Testament, and comparing the context of these in the OT and NT is very enlightening. Thus I possibly question some of the labels used by Dispensationalists. I have heard the expression Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, and I cannot agree with the few descriptions that I have read on this suggestion as they seem to suggest that the method and consequences of salvation is different before and after Mid-Acts. I believe that Acts 8:5-6,12 is a good example of the preaching of the Gospel and the response by those who heard Philip. Paul preached the same in Acts 28:31. Kind regards Trevor
  7. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again Enoob57, Salvation was available before the Law was given, as for example, Abraham was justified by faith Genesis 15:5-6, 22:15-18. Kind regards Trevor
  8. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again enoob57, One explanation is that the Law was there to teach the pattern of things that would afterwards be fully revealed in Christ. Again you use a title that I do not understand “Covenantal theology”. I believe that the New Covenant consists of the promises made concerning Eve, and to Abraham and David and confirmed with the blood of Christ, and this replaces the Old Covenant, the Law given to Moses. What is EMP? Galatians 3:24 (KJV): Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Kind regards Trevor
  9. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings again enoob57, I appreciate the detailed information. We need to keep some of these things in mind as we read the Scriptures. Your mention of these aspects remind me of another Dispensationalist, Ethelbert Bullinger. I have a number of his reference books including Figures of Speech used in the Bible and The Companion Bible. This gives me the impression that Dispensationalists are very analytical. I am not a Dispensationalist and do not know fully what this represents, or the various versions of Dispensationalism. For my part, I believe that there has been one method of salvation from the Garden of Eden, and that is Justification by Faith in the Gospel. As far as Isaiah 2:1-4 I would suggest the common expression “guns or butter” is similar, but not altogether literal. I do not know what is “EMP”. Kind regards Trevor
  10. TrevorL

    Understanding is literal historical ...

    Greetings enoob57, I agree with most of the article that you quoted, but I question what he says in the above. Firstly I am not a dispensationalist, and possibly fit in with those that differ from the dispensationalist in the above statement. I would like to know if a dispensationalist demands that swords and spears and ploughshares and scythes need to be literal in the following passage, or would he be content to view this in a general sense, that money and industry that has been spent in manufacturing weapons of war will be redirected into agriculture during the Kingdom of God upon earth when Christ returns to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. In other words, does a dispensationalist demand that the future warfare preceding Christ's return, which I believe is very soon, will be fought with swords and spears? Kind regards Trevor
  11. Greetings RevJanine, I am reading two books at the moment and both have been of interest and one specifically has been very edifying. But if this thread also includes the Bible itself, I have been considering Isaiah 6 not only recently, but over the years. Many aspects are unique to this chapter and it appears to have many layers and at first difficult concepts. This chapter is also quoted in the NT a number of times and applied to the preaching by Christ. I would be interested if anyone has a perspective on this chapter and would like to discuss this here or in another dedicated thread. As a taster, please give a suggestion of what the three sets of wings represent, one pair covering the face, another the feet, and the other pair flying. I have a personal opinion on this last feature, and I have shared it with a friend who I respect as a thorough expositor, but he did not endorse my view on this. I will reserve my opinion until we progress. After writing the above I read the thread titled "Favourite scripture, Bible verses". Possibly I should have posted into that thread. Kind regards Trevor
  12. TrevorL

    Is the Trinity like 1/3+1/3+1/3=1?

    Greetings again Waggles, What you have quoted appears difficult at first from a non-Trinitarian view. In brief summary, this shows the development of the Yahweh Name, from Yahweh God the Father to incorporate Jesus the Son of God. I believe that John 8:58 is part of a theme, and in the two previous occasions where “I Am” occurs the KJV has translated these as “I am he” in John 8:24,28. Note especially verse 28 where Jesus is claiming his complete dependence on God his Father. Neither of these refer back to Exodus 3:14, neither does John 8:58. The correct translation of “Ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 is “I will be”, as per Tyndale, RV and RSV margins and KJV of Exodus 3:12. Have you had opportunity to consider Psalm 110:1, where Yahweh is distinguished from David’s Lord? Thus Yahweh in this passage refers to God the Father and not Jesus, who is David's Lord. Please also consider the numerous NT quotations of Psalm 110:1 where this distinction is maintained. Kind regards Trevor
  13. TrevorL

    Is the Trinity like 1/3+1/3+1/3=1?

    Greetings Waggles, Have you ever considered that the way Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom as a Wise Woman and is not a literal person here, is a precursor to the language of John 1 where the Word is personified, and is not a literal person? Wisdom and the Word pre-existed, not Jesus. Have you ever considered Psalm 110:1 where Yahweh, God the Father is distinguished from David's Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is now seated at the right hand of Yahweh, God the Father? Kind regards Trevor
  14. TrevorL

    Is the Trinity like 1/3+1/3+1/3=1?

    Greetings Hazard, I said in my previous post, that I was taught from my youth, that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I also at the age of 19 onwards became more aware that local churches taught the Trinity, and I suggest that what you have stated in your latest Post is a typical example. I could answer most of what you have said, one portion, or one Scripture at a time, but a few may suffice. The most obvious one is that despite Waggles objection, and without addressing what he stated, you continue to quote 1 John 5:7 again. I suggest that you look at a few Trinitarian commentaries, and even they reject this verse. Barnes NT Notes for example gives a reasonable coverage. Please note that most modern translations simply exclude this verse. I suggest that some Trinitarians must feel desperate if they need to quote 1 John 5:7. Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Please note that there is a distinction made between Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, David’s Lord. In the Hebrew “LORD” and “Lord” here are two different words. The two “Lords” are only in English. Even the KJV translators distinguish the two words in Matthew 22:44. I suggest that the one Name is Yahweh, and that this not a Trinity formula. Yahweh God the Father worked in and through the Son of God partly by means of God’s power, the Holy Spirit to accomplish God’s purpose, revealed in His Name Yahweh. The three elements are found in the following: Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yahweh’s salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins. Acts 2:22–23 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Neither of these quotations match the Trinity concept. Kind regards Trevor
  15. TrevorL

    Is the Trinity like 1/3+1/3+1/3=1?

    Greetings Your closest friendnt, I appreciate your interest and invitation. What I would like to present is what I would teach our children as a framework or basis to consider other aspects of this subject. This was my experience up to say the age of 19, when I then needed to consider additional concepts such as the meaning of Yahweh and Elohim and the subject of God manifestation and also compare other ideas, such as the strange teaching in a few local Churches, called the Trinity. Our Sunday School teaches at three levels, Junior, Intermediate and Senior, and subdivide the lessons into five years in each category, staring with Genesis and ending with the Apostles. This makes 15 years, and is suitable to cover all this from the age of 4 to 19. We are introduced to the one God as creator in Genesis 1-2, the promise concerning the seed of the woman who would overcome sin and its effects in Genesis 3:15. We learn of Abraham and his call to the land that he and his seed would receive for ever, and see in the offering of Isaac a pattern of greater things to come, in the offering up of God’s Son, in his crucifixion, death and resurrection. The Angel of Yahweh appeared to Moses, and revealed the Name of God as Yahweh, “He who will be or become”, and this Name was revealed to indicate that God would be active in delivering Israel out of Egypt. We read of the promises to David concerning his seed who would also be the Son of God. Coming to the NT, we read of the conception and birth of Jesus the Son of God in fulfilment of this promise to David in the following terms: Luke 1:30–35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. As a result Jesus was born as a human, a man child, a descendant of Adam through Mary his mother, and yet was the Son of God because God was his father in the conception / birth process. God is the Father, first because he is the father of Jesus the Son of God, in his conception and birth, and then also the Son of God in his character and in his resurrection. Luke then records that Jesus grew in wisdom and understanding: Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. At the time of his ministry, John records that they beheld the moral glory revealed in Jesus, the only begotten of the Father: John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. When Paul wrote his Letter to the Romans, he states that the Gospel is centred in the fact that Jesus is the son of David and Son of God by birth, and declared to be the Son of God by his moral character, and because he has now been raised from the dead, and he is now seated at the right hand of the One God, His Father Psalm 110:1: Romans 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Kind regards Trevor
×