JAG**

And how do you get "few" out of this? Genesis 22:17-18 God said to Abraham, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore . . . and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." There are trillions of stars and trillions of grains of sand on the seashore. how do you get "few" out of this?

Some believe that the numbers of Christendom will be "few". And how do you get "few" out of this? "As of the year 2015, Christianity has more than 2.3 billion adherents, out of about 7.5 billion people. The faith represents one-third of the world's population and is the largest religion in the world, with the three largest groups being the Catholic Church, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country

It is helpful to compare Revelation 7: 9-12 . . . . . After this I looked and saw a multitude to large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength to our God forever and ever! Amen.” . . . . . . with The Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go andmake disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Compare the phrase "every nation" of Revelation 7 with the "all nations" of Matthew 28. We see that The Great Commission was indeed carried out successfully, seeing as how at the end of human history the numbers of the saved are so large that they are a "multitude to large to count." The important elements of The Great Commission are (1) that Christ now has all authority both in Heaven and on Earth and the goal is to (2) make disciples of all nations. The fact that Christ now has all authority both in Heaven and on Earth is the POWER that made possible the success of The Great Commission as recorded in Revelation 7: 9-12

From the OP Take a look at Genesis 22:17-18 God said to Abraham, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore . . . and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." (1) stars (2) grains of sand on the seashore (3) all nations of the earth shall be blessed through Abraham's descendants. (In Romans the Apostle Paul teaches that the Christian Church is the spiritual children of Abraham.) Compare: Hebrews 11:11-12 By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the opportune age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. And so from one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore."

Take a look at Genesis 22:17-18 God said to Abraham, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore . . . and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." (1) stars (2) grains of sand on the seashore (3) all nations of the earth shall be blessed through Abraham's descendants. (In Romans the Apostle Paul teaches that the Christian Church is the spiritual children of Abraham.) Compare Galatians 3:6-9 "So also, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."

"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom."__Luke 12:32 Some Bible interpreters have focused on the phrase "little flock" in Luke 12:32 and have erroneously proclaimed that Christendom is always going to be relatively small numerically. After all the verse says "little flock" so they conclude that "little flock" is a general characterization of the numerical size of Christendom for all of human history. Their interpretation and application of "little flock" is obviously incorrect. "As of the year 2015, Christianity has more than 2.3 billion adherents, out of about 7.5 billion people. The faith represents one-third of the world's population and is the largest religion in the world, with the three largest groups being the Catholic Church, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country Clearly, Christianity is not now a "little flock" and it is impossible to interpret the Bible as teaching that the Christian Church is always going to be a "little flock." When was Christianity a "little flock"? Answer: It was a "little flock" at the time the Lord Jesus spoke the words of Luke 12:32. At that time there was probably less than 300 Christians in the entire world of the 1st century. The Christian Church is not a "little flock" now and will never again be a "little flock." Take a look at Genesis 22:17-18 God said to Abraham, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore . . . and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." (1) stars (2) grains of sand on the seashore (3) all nations of the earth shall be blessed through Abraham's descendants. (In Romans the Apostle Paul teaches that the Christian Church is the spiritual children of Abraham.) How many stars are there in the universe? If you google that question, you'll get something like this: "Multiplying the number of galaxies, which is about 2 trillion, by the 100 million stars in a galaxy suggests there could be about 10 raised to the 20th power stars in the universe." That would be trillions and trillions of stars. Then there is the matter of numerous "as the sand which is on the seashore" phrase in Genesis 22:17-18. How many grains of sand is there on the seashores of the world? Trillions and trillions to be sure. Clearly the descendants of Abraham, which includes all of Christendom, are going to be huge in numbers. Compare Revelation 7: 9-12 "After this I looked and saw a multitude to large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength to our God forever and ever! Amen.” Note the phrase that says, "I saw a multitude to large to count." Note the phrase that says, "from every nation and tribe and tongue." Clearly Christendom is going to be huge-enormous in numbers before human history comes to an end. The human race is now in its infancy. Its only a few days old, historically speaking. In the mega millenniums yet ahead the Christian Church will grow in numbers so that the final numbers will be as the stars in the heavens and as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashores of the world.

#1 Belief in Christianity comes from preaching the gospel and the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit in the human heart to convince the human person that Christianity is the truth, and NOT from our belief in evidences or dependence on the scientific method to prove to us that Christianity is the truth. "The Holy Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." Romans 8:16 How do we know that we are God's children? Answer: The Holy Spirit tells us that we are. __________________________________ "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" Romans 1:16 What is the power of God for salvation? Answer: the gospel ___________________________________ "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13 How do we know we have eternal life? Answer: Because of the contents of the epistle of 1 john . . . . . . and NOT because we read a work on Christian Apologetics (though it can be an interesting blessing to read works like that eg. William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith which is a major work on Christian Apologetics.) Consider these passages: William Lane Craig, quoting Henry Dodwell, says this: "Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot hang indefinitely in suspense while reason cautiously weighs and reweighs arguments. The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by means of the heart, not by means of the intellect. Faith is the gift of the Holy Spirit." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 35 Then Craig says a few pages later, "I think that Dodwell . . . [is] correct that, fundamentally, the way we know Christianity is true is by the self-authenticating witness of God's Holy Spirit. Now what do I mean by that? I mean that the experience of the Holy Spirit is veridical [truthful] and unmistakable . . . for him who has it; that such a person does not need supplementary arguments or evidence in order to know with confidence that he is in fact experiencing the Spirit of God . . ."__William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 43 So clearly William Lane Craig, one of America's most popular and influential Christian Apologist, agrees with Henry Dodwell. Then earlier on page 39, Craig says that he agrees with Plantinga that belief in God is "both rational and warranted wholly apart from an evidental foundations for belief." Says William Lane Craig: "Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief."__William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 39

The following may sound "child-like", anyway I sure hope it does (Matthew 18:3). Either God tells lies or He does not tell lies. He does not tell lies. Therefore when God says, "If we confess our sins, He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, He is either lying or telling the truth. When God says, "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" He is either lying or telling the truth. He is telling the truth. And if we (you and me) do not believe Him, then we are FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES calling God a liar. You might say , "Aw I'm not really calling God a liar." Yeah you are. You are if you don't believe what He said. 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."__God through the Apostle John So is God lying up there, or is He telling you the truth? Which one? _______ What God Does With Our Sins: (See the Opening Post.) https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/214222-being-forgiven/?tab=comments#comment-2696065

///big grin here That's the best and most interesting way to argue against the necessity of intellectualism --- bring in the Academic Philosophical Intellectual Talking Heads to "play the game" with aspiring Academic Philosophical Intellectual Talking Heads, so that eventually we can dispense with the bafflegab and intellectualized gobbly-gook and embrace what I call "Little Child Christianity." But we still can use the intellectualized goobly-gook to help us weaken the prestige of the intellectualized gobbly-gook. For example we can incorporate Alvin Plantinga into the discussion: I think a lot of Plantinga. He is a Christian philosopher and a true brain, and he is one of the good Academic Philosophical Intellectual Talking Heads that can pour forth with the "expanded cerebrum" with the best of 'em and help us . . . lol . . denigrate Mr. Spock and his Vulcan-induced addiction to what he called "logic." Thought For Today: "Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" 1 Corinthians 1:20

Hello again AM3, See if this helps: William Lane Craig, quoting Henry Dodwell, says this: "Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot hang indefinitely in suspense while reason cautiously weighs and reweighs arguments. The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by means of the heart, not by means of the intellect. Faith is the gift of the Holy Spirit." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 35 _____ Then Craig says a few pages later, "I think that Dodwell . . . [is] correct that, fundamentally, the way we know Christianity is true is by the self-authenticating witness of God's Holy Spirit. Now what do I mean by that? I mean that the experience of the Holy Spirit is veridical [truthful] and unmistakable . . . for him who has it; that such a person does not need supplementary arguments or evidence in order to know with confidence that he is in fact experiencing the Spirit of God . . ."__William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 43 ________ So clearly William Lane Craig, one of America's most popular and influential Christian Apologist, agrees with Henry Dodwell. _____ Then earlier on page 39, Craig says that he agrees with Plantinga that belief in God is "both rational and warranted wholly apart from an evidental foundations for belief." Says William Lane Craig: "Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief."__William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 39

Hello AM3 Christianity is a faith, it is not an intellectual argument. Its not one of the sciences either. Christianity is not based upon rational argument. It is based upon the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that regenerates and transforms the human heart and mind. Biblical Christianity lies outside your capacity to intellectually investigate it --- the world of the metaphysical cannot be investigated with the Scientific Method or with the Rationalism of intellectualized philosophical arguments. This is why the Lord Jesus said, "Have faith in God"__Mark 11:22 And why the Lord Jesus said we are to receive the Kingdom of Heaven like a little child would receive it.

I don't see any disagreements between us. My objection was to killing animals "Just for the sake of killing animals" without just cause. I enjoy eating a T-bone steak and I have never ate one that was still alive *smile* which means somebody killed the cow for me. The wife and I eat a lot of chickens too, but we have never ate one that was still alive.

Great comment. I appreciate it, bopeep.

That's a very pertinent point to make. We need to show kindness to the unborn babies too and not have them killed. I am for life, not for killing. There is enough death and killing and hurt in the world as it is, without humans deliberately causing more death and hurt to be inflicted upon humans and animals. We ought to make killing as rare as is humanly possible. Sometimes, for example, wars cannot be avoided because some men (and nations) refuse to listen to reason. Sad world. Btw, wars have only provided temporary solutions to human problems (eg. WW II got rid of Hitler) but wars have never been the solution to the problems that have plagued human beings for thousands of years. Only the gospel of the Lord Jesus can be the permanent solution to human problems. Btw Hitler was soon replaced by other tyrants that became mass murderers. Then add that ongoing mess in the Middle East, a mess that seems to never end, and appears to be militarily insoluble. Time will tell about that, but don't bet to heavily that there is a military solution, that will actually be implemented, to the mess in the Middle East. Lets stop killing the unborn. Lets pray that human beings will choose life and love, not death and killing.

Thanks Morning Glory. And thanks for the welcome too.

I was raised in a time and in an area of the country where many men considered it manly to kill animals just for the sake of killing them. They called doing that "sport." And they taught the young boys, as they grew up, to do the same thing. They explained that killing animals was merely we humans "exercising our dominion" as they put it. The results was a lot of unnecessary killing of animals (and birds) just for the sake of killing them. "Road kills" counted too. Many back then would speed up in order to "score a point" on all critters crossing the road and even score points on stray dogs and cats too. I now see all that as wrongdoing and outright sin. Its a blessings how the Lord changes the heart and makes us wiser and better as we read His word and get to know Him better. I found myself braking the other day so I would not hit a young squirrel that had just dashed in front of my truck. I am glad I did that. I will never again cause any animal death or pain just for the sake of killing the animal. I read in the newspaper where they closed that disgraceful Ringling Brothers Elephant Show. Good. It was very painful for the elephants. I have read how they "trained" the elephants to do all their tricks and performances and the "training" involved intense pain for the elephants while they were forced to go through their routines. No, I am not against hunting animals for food. I am against killing them only "for sport" and against killing them "just for the sake of killing them." No, I am not a pacifist. I believe some wars are justified, for example WW II. But I believe killing and mangling up human bodies in wars ought to be the very last resort after all other solutions have been totally exhausted. "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God", said the Lord Jesus. That means exactly what it says. On another subject: "A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal." Proverbs 12:10