Refined

The nation of Israel has never ceased to exist. It has been in diaspora for millennia, but it has certainly never ceased to exist. Some of the nation of Israel lives in the Holy Land, some of it lives in Russia, much of it in the United States, others in France, Germany even, Spain, etc. The nation of Israel, biblical speaking, is not the country that "came into existence" in 1948, it is the offspring of Jacob strewn throughout the world, including a number of people who are probably not even overly aware of the fact. There are plans the Lord still has left to perform through the nation of Israel, but that doesn't necessitate the existence of the Modern State of Israel located currently in the middle east. It may however include some of the geography. The Modern nation of Israel is the product of political Zionism, which although it has the name zion in it, is completely antithetical to the Zion of scripture. Hope you have a blessed day, Travis

Thank you for sharing that Wikipedia Article. I think it is commonly understood that history is written by the victors. It does not benefit the modern state called Israel to have bad publicity, so often relevant details are conveniently passed over. Here is a good overview of that day, and lots more details for anyone who is keen on searching things out: " Early in the morning of Friday, April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. It was several weeks before the end of the British Mandate. The village lay outside of the area that the United Nations recommended be included in a future Jewish State. Deir Yassin had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and one plan, kept secret until years afterwards, called for it to be destroyed and the residents evacuated to make way for a small airfield that would supply the beleaguered Jewish residents of Jerusalem. By noon over 100 people, half of them women and children, had been systematically murdered. Four commandos died at the hands of resisting Palestinians using old Mausers and muskets. Twenty-five male villagers were loaded into trucks, paraded through the Zakhron Yosef quarter in Jerusalem, and then taken to a stone quarry along the road between Givat Shaul and Deir Yassin and shot to death. The remaining residents were driven to Arab East Jerusalem. That evening the Irgunists and the Sternists escorted a party of foreign correspondents to a house at Givat Shaul, a nearby Jewish settlement founded in 1906. Over tea and cookies they amplified the details of the operation and justified it, saying Deir Yassin had become a concentration point for Arabs, including Syrians and Iraqis, planning to attack the western suburbs of Jerusalem. They said that 25 members of the Haganah militia had reinforced the attack and claimed that an Arabic-speaking Jew had warned the villagers over a loudspeaker from an armored car. This was duly reported in The New York Times on April 10. A final body count of 254 was reported by The New York Times on April 13, a day after they were finally buried. By then the leaders of the Haganah had distanced themselves from having participated in the attack and issued a statement denouncing the dissidents of Irgun and the Stern Gang, just as they had after the attack on the King David Hotel in July 1946. A 1987 study undertaken by Birzeit University'sCenter for Research and Documentation of Palestinian Society found "the numbers of those killed does not exceed 120". The Haganah leaders admitted that the massacre "disgraced the cause of Jewish fighters and dishonored Jewish arms and the Jewish flag." They played down the fact that their militia had reinforced the terrorists' attack, even though they did not participate in the barbarism and looting during the subsequent "mopping up" operations. They also played down the fact that, in Begin's words, "Deir Yassin was captured with the knowledge of the Haganah and with the approval of its commander" as a part of its "plan for establishing an airfield." Ben Gurion even sent an apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But this horrific act served the future State of Israel well. According to Begin: Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of "Irgun butchery," were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. Of about 144 houses, 10 were dynamited. The cemetery was later bulldozed and, like hundreds of other Palestinian villages to follow, Deir Yassin was wiped off the map. By September, Orthodox Jewish immigrants from Poland, Rumania, and Slovakia were settled there over the objections of Martin Buber, Cecil Roth and other Jewish leaders, who believed that the site of the massacre should be left uninhabited. The center of the village was renamed Givat Shaul Bet. As Jerusalem expanded, the land of Deir Yassin became part of the city and is now known simply as the area between Givat Shaul and the settlement of Har Nof on the western slopes of the mountain. The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is one of the most significant events in 20th-century Palestinian and Israeli history. This is not because of its size or its brutality, but because it stands as the starkest early warning of a calculated depopulation of over 400 Arab villages and cities and the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinian inhabitants to make room for survivors of the Holocaust and other Jews from the rest of the world. " http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html Blessings, Travis

OK good, then we can continue. Have you looked into the Deir Yassin Massacre before?

You seem angry, I think I will let it cool out a bit. Thank you for your responses though. Blessings, Travis

" Do you think that being baptised will change someone? " No. But I do think that if someone has been changed, they will most likely get baptized. That being said, obedience to God builds our faith, confidence, and hope. So obediently being baptized may help build those three things and help in the process of ceasing being molded by the world. Blessings, Travis

16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16-20 There are good guys mixed into every nation, tribe, and tongue. This is a correct statement. I agree 100%. Why do I call a group of people evil, or a nation-state evil? I look at it's fruit. By examining the fruit its quite easy to tell that something is over the top, extremely, incredibly, ostentatiously, severely wrong with the nation-state of Israel that so many want to give credit for being God's nation. Just because someone calls themselves Israel doesn't mean they are the Israel spoken of in scripture. It's a good ploy to get naive American Christians to back them financially and otherwise, but it doesn't actually make it so. I'm not upset with anyone here. I am upset at the lies which have been perpetuated for some time. I do hope we can keep it civil and avoid making it overly personal while discussing this matter as adults. If those in political power in Israel want to follow the Torah and call themselves Jews, I support that in every way. The Torah would tell them: 19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. - Deuteronomy 10:19 21 "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. 22 You shall not mistreat any widow or fatherless child. 23 If you do mistreat them, and they cry out to me, I will surely hear their cry, - Exodus 22:21-23 And yet there are millions of people who have a legitimate claim to land inside of Israel who are oppressed and confined to standards of living that are beyond unacceptable. How Palestinians are treated in Israel says incredible things about what are in the hearts of those running the country. Using proof text arguments about bloodlines and how the descendants of so and so deserve what they get because it's biblical prophesy is a bunch of garbage as well. Here is the whole of the law: 27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." - Luke 10:27 The modern nation state of Israel fails this in all regards. There are believers in Israel who do not fail this, they are the true Israel of God, born from above, and my brothers and sisters. It's for their sakes and others I say these things. Modern Israel is not a beacon on a hill shining light upon the Savior, it is at best salt that has lost it's saltiness. I'm not convinced it was ever salt in the first place... but that's a different story. Have you heard of the Deir Yassin Massacre. Key word there being Massacre. Blessings, Travis

Like most of Lewis's writings, it has a little value. But i find it quite deficient in others I suppose. But anyway, just opinions either way.

I suppose my point was that we are not to be ignorant of his devices, that implies that every single Christian, even those brand new to the faith should have basic knowledge of how Satan operates. I appreciate your concern but I was not endorsing diving head deep into occultism or other, just saying that there is legitimacy to at least having a basic knowledge of the subject. Going beyond what is written is of no value. Blessings, Travis

I've always considered C.S. Lewis a little light on the subject. Didn't get too much out of him. Jesse Penn Lewis transcribed a book for Evans Roberts called War on the Saints. That one is a gold mine in my opinion. The unabridged edition is the only one worth reading though. This verse should be true of every believer, but I'm not sure it is: so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs. - 2 Corinthians 2:11 You have to have some knowledge of Satan to not be outwitted by him. blessings, Travis

You are correct. God does care about the physical descendants of Abraham. He cares about those who descend from Judah as well. God also cares about Arab's, Palestinians, Chinese, Germans, Africans, Hawaiian, American Indian, and even Polish people. He will save men and women from every nation tribe and tongue, Judah being no exception. The problem is when we think the modern nation-state of Israel is the same as the word Israel mentioned in the scriptures. Its not the Israeli good guys vs the Iranian bad guys. It's the Israeli bad guys against the Iranian bad guys with the support of the US bad guys. The people running/responsible for the creation and maintenance of the modern nation state of Israel are evil to the core as well. It saddens me to see their actions attributed to God's name. God can and does use whoever he wants, no doubt, but its quite silly to think he is behind the evil they perpetuate, no matter how much they spin it to look good. God loves Jews. I love Jews. And I wish others would love Jews enough to tell them and everyone else just how evil the current nation of Israel is, and to not identify oneself with it. If you want to identify with Israel, do so with the Israel which is above, of which all who have faith are citizens there of. That Israel will never fail. Blessings, Travis

I don't know that I agree with the overall theme you are laying out. I really haven't had enough time to think about it to form much of an opinion though. One thing I do know is this, the modern nation-state of Israel is definitely not the apple of God's eye. A little research into the symbol used to represent it, the misnamed star of "David," really paints the picture for the what they stand for. They are as secular and antiChrist as most countries out there, including the United States of America. The whole world lies in the evil one, and the nation-state of Israel is no exception. Modern Israel could cease to exist as she currently does and it wouldn't make a drop in the bucket of a difference regarding biblical prophecy. Gods plans would roll on just the same, without a hindrance at all. That's because most prophecy people associate with this modern state is misplaced. Modern Israel, as with any nation, is in dire need of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The whole purpose of the bloodline from Abraham to David, from David to Josiah (Babylon), and from Jechoniah To Jesus (Christ) is a pure bloodline that culminated in Christ. Once the Christ had come, the son of God in the flesh, the bloodline had served its purpose. It is cool to be able to say you share similar bloodline as Paul, James, and our Savior, Jesus. But it doesn't make a hill of beans difference if you haven't been born again. And it surely doesn't make you better than any brother or sister in Christ to be so. Who cares what general background people's bloodlines are? The gospel is open to all. Every nation tribe and tongue. No one of any bloodline who rejected the Gospel will be saved. All people from any bloodline who do live the Gospel will be saved. Why do I say all this? I think the attention given to modern Israel from Christian leadership is distracting from the purity of the gospel and misleading to those within and outside of the church of Jesus Christ. Modern Israel happens to be located on a piece of ground that has deep biblical history. Well, Woohoo... That can change... Blessings, Travis

Hi Rusty Angel, I think I have heard something like this before, but I cant remember where. I am familiar with the verse you referenced, proverbs 18:21, but this idea that if we speak negatively, we are literally speaking death into our lives is what I am curious about. I was wondering if you could help me find where this is at in the scriptures. Blessings! Travis

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. Prayer is so hard, because true prayer is powerful. The enemy isn't going to let you off that easy. Blessings, Travis