JesusisGod2

I'll probably be sleeping, so I wont give it a second thought

This is very true 2 generations ago. I was raised catholic and it was a day to go to church and have family dinners together all of which were not bad things and to be honest would make the world a better place to slow down and spend this day in fellowship. I remember most stores were closed and malls were unheard of. Most buisnesses were closed so fathers were home. Better get your groceries the day befoe or chances were not many stores would be open. I believe this was how White Hen Pantry and 7-11 and Convienience Marts all made their big enterances. They were the ones who started being opened on Sundays and supplied the little things that might have been forgotten to be purchased during the week such as milk, bread, butter etc... It seems that most people were catholic in those days at least where I grew up and it isnt a small town unless some consider Chicago small. I never even met my 1st Baptist until I was about 14 and never even heard of a Pentecostal or a Charismatic until I was in the Army. So the catholics dominated in those days and it was a sin not to go to church in honor of their "Sabbath" or to work on that day. So you make a good point Shiloh, Sunday until about the last 30 years was a day of rest. But anymore a lot of companies require you work on Sundays.

Hi Toothless, Actually this verse has been brought up earlier and I dont think it really has anything to do with a Christian and the Sabbath and like you said I dont really believe it is a definate reference to Sabbath being observed as it is an analogy of saying that they will worship Jesus, it will be demanded not a choice, much like what you have stated. In either case, it is definately not a strong verse for the arguement that the Sabbath will be observed, especially in reference to Christians. This is in reference to the millinial kingdom and those who have been spared Gods wrath in the tribulation. The saints will be with and rule with Christ and we will be in our resurrected bodies and not the flesh. From what I understand those who participate in the millinial kingdom who have been spared death in the tribulation and Gods wrath, and will be accountable to the law including the sacrifices, etc... Hence the wording "all flesh". They will also be able to repopulate the earth which Christians who are in Christ and have been resurrected wil not for we will not be given in marriage nor be male or female. We have already accepted the only sacrifice that is able to save and have been resurrected. The period of grace is over at this time and mankind will be accountable and judged for their sin by the true judge. I also do not believe that it has any reference to the new heaven and the new earth, because that will be for Gods people.

Hi Pilgrim, Actually there is no proof that Paul wrote Hebrews and as is the title of the epistle, it is written to the Hebrews not neccessarily believers. Hebrews is an epistle to the Jews showing how much better the new covenant is compared to the old and that Jesus is Messiah. Some call Hebrews the book of betters. As far as your question: Have you considered the the verses in the same chapter that you have quoted? Hebrews 4 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. I also find it interesting that after the book of Acts, the Sabbath is only mentioned 1 time: Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: I also find it interesting that the ony verse that reference the Sabbath in the epistles is one that tells us to not let anyone judge us according to sabbath days, it doesnt tell us to keep the Sabbath. We have entered into our rest in Christ. Hi Toothless, Pretty fair questions. In Jesus kevin

Hi abbershay, I am not sayiny that I disagree with you, but I was wondering if you could point to some scripture that points to the Christian observing the Sabbath in the millinial reign of Christ.

Hi caroline, Funny that you use the scripture written in James to justify that we are after we are saved by keeping the law, when in fact James is showing that it it is works of faith and not works of the law the law in which a man is justified. You cant just take these verses out of the context of the whole chapter to get what James what speaking of here. He was in fact speaking of works of faith that follow the royal law of God James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: James is speaking of works such as these that will follow and accompany faith in the Living God. You see an example of this in following verses of the same chapter: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Faith is an action not a show. Like we see someone in need and we say I will pray for you brother, and yet have the means to give immediate help and do not but instead pray, our faith is usesless. This is not fulfilling the royal law of God. We are to trust God in everything, and if we trust God in everything, it will reflect in our treatment of others. James gives an example above in that say someone is hungry, and we tell them hey brother trust in God, He will supply all of your needs, go in peace be fed. And yet we have food and do not offer to feed them., we have clothes and do not offer to clothe them, we have a warm house on a cold night and do not offer to let them get warm. What good is our faith in in God and how will this show anyone the love of God. Paul expounds on this royal law in Romans. Romans 13:8-10 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Jesus also addressed this in Matthew 25: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Love is the fulfillment of the law, this is the law that God has written in our hearts. This is the new commandment that Jesus Himself has given us and says that by this, all men will know we belongs to Him. John 13:33-35 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. They will not know us by whether we follow the 10 commandments. Many people live good wholesome lives and yet they do not know Jesus. How many times have you heard "He or she is a good person, they deserve to go to heaven? Hell will be full of "good people". James is in no way speaking of following the ten commandments. Do you know anyone who can follow them? Speaking of James he also addresses this very issue in the second chapter of his epistle that you site: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. Notice in the above that 2 of the commandments he uses as examples that if you break one, you break them all, are of the 10 commandments by which you say we should follow. James points out that this, the 10 commandments is not what he is speaking of in his address offaith and works. But faith working through love (1 Cor 13 type love) thus fulfilling the royal law of God written in our hearts. If we do not have these works accompanying our faith, our faith is useless and is in fact dead and not wrought in God. Notice the very next verse in James: 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. We have been set at liberty sister, liberty to walk in Him and liberty to fulfill the royal law of God, liberty to believe in Him, liberty to rest in Him, liberty to surrender to Him, This is true freedom. I wish I lived close to a Messianic Church. I would most definately attend there and from what I understand, they observe the Sabbath as well, however they do not view it as a part of salvation, nor of righteousness, but as their day they choose honor God in worship in the same way that those who worship on Sunday. The honor the Lord of the Sabbath, Whom is our Sabbath rest. I do not believe that if I do however, that it would make me more spiritual, or more saved or hold a higher place of honor in Gods eyes, but I do believe that I would be blessed by it. My main reason to be honest though, would be to be around more Jews to whom the word of God has been handed down and learn from them. God has definately blessed them and its really neat to hear how Jesus is hidden in their very traditions including the Sabbath which is a picture of our eternal rest in Him of which we enter into when we are born again. You definately have a zeal for God sis, may you also find his rest. In Jesus kevin

She is considered a prophetess by the seventh day, so probability is that it is the same.

I agree with this guy: As far as his upbringing, there are many of us that were brought up in the sixties and seventies (teenage years) by what todays standards would be considered abuse. My stepdad, wouldnt hesitate to put knuckles upside my head and sometimes for no reason other than he could get away with it. This appeared to be the norm with most of my friends as well, some even worse. But it didnt and doesnt make us act like Jackson does as an adult. This man wants to be worshipped or so it seems to me. We should pray for but not approve of what he is and does. This man is one who has heard the Name of Jesus Christ and has rejected Him. The Spirit will not strive with man forever. He has turned to every religion and god except the God Who is able to save his soul. John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Michael is living a lie and is not living the truth but has in fact rejected the truth and believes the lie. This man doesnt need help, he needs the Truth.

Wow........thats powerful, I really never seen that before. That is a great revelation. Thanks brother!

Hi Shiloh, Amen Shiloh this is what I was trying to get at, Jesus is our Sabbath, He is our rest that once we are born again we enter into. I also appreciate the post on what works are acceptable according to Jewish law. My point I was trying to make is that there are those who adamant on keeping the Jewish Sabbath, and then go about doing their own thing until its time to go to church, in which by their keeping the law they break it. Thats all. I dont think that today, especially gentiles who have been converted, really have any conception of what the Jewish Sabbath is about or how it should by law be observed. Hi Caroline, Amen, if you feel this to be true then praise the Lord. I was using the examples that I gave as metaphores, not exacts. I would like to ask you a similar question tha Shiloh has asked Pilgrim7 and I quote:

It had to do with all work. By the way what is your opinion of regular work, or better yet what is your opinion of work that doesnt fall under regular work and is allowable by God on the sabbath? As with Otherone, I am curious on your take, not on what some site has to say (I dont mean any offence) but your own words based upon the scripture. It would really help to understand where you are coming from. When we are born again, we not only remember it, we enter into it. We rest from our own works and enter into Christ rest, He is our Sabbath, we are in Him and He is in us, we are one. By the way, the site that you refer to here is another board to which you are an admistrator and not to a specific topic, so what thread specifically are you pointing too or are you just trying to lead people to your boards? Not that there is a problem with inviting people to fellowship on other boards, but you really should point to the topic for specifics that compliment the discussion to this thread at Worthy Boards In Jesus kevin

Hi Caroline, Just out of curiosity, do you cook on the sabbath or drive a car or even keep a light on at night? Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. Do you clean house or wash dishes or work a garden in the summer on the sabbath? Do you run errands, such go to the store ? Do you buy or sell? Do you walk or travel more than a sabbaths day journey (I believe it is approx 1/2 mile) to worship? How about the sacrifices, are these still being made? By the way, the sabbath is never called a day of worship, it is called a day of rest. However many Jews did (and some still do) worship on the sabbath and this is why many Jews lived within 1/2 mile of the synagogue and is the purpose of having so many synagogues, so they would not violate the law of riding animals or carts etc. to get there, for even the beast were to do no work. Many who keep the sabbath today are in reality only keeping parts of the sabbath without even knowing it, here is what James says about that: James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. By your keeping the law, do you violate the law? Christ is our sabbath, all of the laws of sabbath were a picture of Him, He is the rest that we now enter into. It is an eternal rest. We have entered in when we were born again, though some things are not realized yet, this what is called faith, and this is our hope.

Hi Art, Sorry if the subject got off topic of the sabbath specifically, but when one observes the sabbath and not the whole law, then what? James2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. So really the theme was on topiic in that respect. In Jesus kevin

Hi Dennis, I agree that if we go to too many verses we loose track of what the origional subject is about, which is should we observe the sabbath day which is of the law. And so I am attempting to show by scripture where the observance to the law has nothing to do with our salvation as a matter of fact it is and was actually the death of us. For the law is holy and we are not, (that is without Christ we are not.) Nor does the law make one holy, for the law reveals sin and sin takes opportunity through the law. Amen brother, I am with you on this. I know that no one is beyond misunderstanding verses in the scripture, that is why God loves for us to come together and go over His Word and His goal for us is to be of one accord, in one Spirit, His Spirit. So the purpose of these boards are not to show who is wrong and who is right, but to learn of Him and to learn to rightly divide the Word of God. Amen, nor do I see a conflict between the commandments of God and faith. However, practicing the law and living by faith do conflict with each other. Seeing as you have selected Galatians for your verses that we should discuss for now (Beautiful book by the way), lets look at what I am trying to say 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Here it say that practicing the law and living by faith are contrary to each other, for living by faith says He can, living by the law says we can of which He says we can't. It is the commandments that lead us to Christ, it is the commandments that show us that we are sinners, it is the commandments that show how far we are from being holy, how far we fall from righteosness Gal 3:21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. It is the commandments that act as our teacher and leads us to Christ and the righteousness that is based upon our faith in Him. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. Here we see the law and faith are in harmony with each other. As you have mentioned, they do not conflict with each other but compliment each other, however they do serve different purposes. The law has become our teacher, its purpose is to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith, No man can be justified by the law, only through faith in Him. Faith is that which God gives us as a gift in order that we may become righteous by belief in Him. Sorry for going on and on about this, but it is very important that one sees that we live a life of faith in Him and not by works of the law or obsevances of special days such as sabbath. For it is He that justifies us through belief in Him, whereas the law condemns us. Now to the verses you have selected from Galatians. This pretty much says what I have been saying above, so next verse one really needs to read the whole chapter here to get the gist of what Paul is speaking of here. Paul here is speaking of Peter and other Jews, whom after having been made righteous by being justified by Christ through faith, were compelling the gentiles to live as Jews to be justified by righteousness that is by the law, because of fear of the circumcision. In other words to live as if they were made righteous by the works of the law. Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. In verse 18 Paul is essentially saying if he again builds up the law as a means of righteousness, then he makes himself a transgressor of the very same. For by the law is no man made righteous, as I mentioned it is quite the opposite, it is by the law that we are found to be sinners. I am not quite sure what you are saying here. For if you are dead then to the law but alive to God, then there is no transgression of the law. If this is what you are saying then we are in agreement here. Praise The Lord!!!!!! This is what I have ben saying all along. Hallelujah!! Thank you Jesus!!!!! The letter kills, The Spirit gives life! So then do we base our righteousness upon the law? Do we base our works upon the law? Does this mean we must observe the sabbath day in order to be righteous? I am not quite sure how to respond to this at this moment as I am not really sure what you are saying, so I will pray over this and address this later if you dont mind. Actually sin was in the world but it was not imputed as such until the law was given. I see in the scriptures that salvation is complete, the work has been finished, the sacrifice has been accepted by God. You are saying that there are other steps, am I correct in my understanding of what you are saying? Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. As well as present and future, it is a completed work. Again I am not sure how to respond to this. Most of it is really beautiful, it is the born again experience but them you speak of becoming a transgressor but once we are saved we are not under law but under grace. If under grace then there is no law and therefore no transgression. 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. You cant live under both, you cannot have two masters, you have to serve one or the other. Christ has set us free, we should walk in the lberty that He has given us. Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. To get back on topic (which our discussion really hasnt been really off topic, for it has been concerning the law) this bondage includes observance of the sabbath day of rest. It is no longer something that we observe, but we having been born again have entered into this rest. You too brother, In Jesus kevin

Hi Dennis, This is exactly what I was speaking of, great set of verses you have chosen here. We have purified our souls through obeying the truth, what truth? Belief in The truth that Christ through His baptism has taken the sins of the world upon Himself. The truth that He took our judgment for our sins on the cross. The truth that He has washed all our sins away, past present and future with His blood. The truth that He defeated death by being resurrected from the dead. The truth that He is God, and has given us His Holy Spirit. And so in obedience to this truth which is faith in the above, this is counted unto us as righteousness. This is the work of God, to believe in Him Whom He sent. John 6:27-29 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Christ is our righteousness, our justification, our purification, our sanctification. It is He that works the works of righteousness in us through faith. you mentioned in parenthesis that Thy Word is truth and I have no disagreement but would like to expound further and say that Jesus is the Word John 1:1 and He is the Truth John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. So what I see in 1 Pet is Peter saying that we purify our souls as we obey Christ through the Spirit unto unfeigned or a more modern english word ..genuine love for the brethren with a pure heart. And of course the only way we can do this is by being born again which is really what this whole chapter of scripture is about. To keep in context with the above chapter you must look at verse 4-6 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Remember it is the law that exposes sin, but we are not under law but under grace., therefore there is no longer any law to transgress for those who are in Christ. Does this give us a license for loose living? In no way But I will not expound except to say read Romans 6 so as not to get this train going in too many directions. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Christ was manifested in us to take away our sin, for we are in Him and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. We sin not because He has already taken our sins upon Himself as well as our judgment and we are in Him, and in Him there is no sin. Now those who seek justification by observances of laws and ordinances continue in sin, because the law reveals sin and sin takes its opportunity through the law. Those who seek justification from the law have not seen Him nor do they know Him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. What is righteousness? Romans 4:2-4 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Righteousness is not based upon works, but upon believing in God. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4 is really a good study to get a grasp on this. James, which many use to refute this thought because it says faith without works is dead, but it is not the works of the law that James speaks of, James is agreeing with the above as far as those seeking the law for justification for by the law shall no man be justified. James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: We have already touched on this but I like what James calls it..the royal law. 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. James here is saying that if you keep the law, you are to keep the whole law, if you offend in one point of the law, you are guilty of transgressing the whole law. This is an impossibility, only Christ has been able to do so. This is when James goes into the "faith without works is dead " but the works he speaks of are works of charity as he uses and example starting in verse 15 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. This fulfills the royal law: James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: now we see as we go further into James 2 just how much he is in agreement with Paul in that it is our faith in and believing God is counted as our righteousness. 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Abraham believed God, even though God had asked him to sacrifice his only son, he was willing to offer up Issac. Human sacrifice was actually a common pagan practice of the time if I am not mistaken, but never ordained by God. So we see our works are not observances of laws and ordinances, but of love. I do not think we disagree that we are to do good and not evil, but again I believe that we have a different take on what good works are. Again if we count on the law as justification, then Christ died needlessly. What is your idea of works of righteousness? What laws are we to follow in order to be righteous? What laws if we do not follow them, will be condemned by? Well thats enough for this post, like I said I don't want to write a book (on one page anyway ) I hope to respond to the rest of your post tomorrow. I would like to close with this verse from Galatians which pretty much sums up this page. Galatians 2:20-22 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. In Jesus kevin

Hi Dennis, I will write my response in several post so as not to make it look like a book and hard to read and follow. (At least for me anywaylong post are hard for me to follow) I do agree that faith without works is dead, however, I think we have a different view on what exactly works are. No where does it say that the law makes us holy, nor does it equate the law to good works, as a matter of fact it actually says quite the opposite, that I agree that the law is holy, but unfortunately we in the flesh are not. But lets look at the context that Paul addresses this particular verse of scripture of the law being holy and the context he is using this in. First we see that in Romans 7 where we get this verse refering to the law being Holy., Paul is speaking of the new covenant, A covenant made in the blood of Christ. Lets start with verses 4-5 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Here Paul is saying that we are dead to the law by the body of Christ. The never could and never will make one righteous, unless of course they obey the whole law which to date no one ever has save Jesus Christ and never will. We are not alive to the law but to God. The law that God puts in our hearts is love, I will not expound on this as we have already gone through this in a prior post. But we do see that it is love that fulfills the law. But I will site the verses: Romans 13:8-10 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. So it is love that fulfills Gods law, this is not an easy thing to do, just look at 1 cor 13. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Notice here Paul says "for when we were in the flesh, the motions of sin which were by the law" What he is saying here is that sin is revealed through the written law and it brings forth fruit unto death. Without the written law sin was not imputed.. We no longer live in the flesh, but we live in the newness of the spirit which is what Paul says in verse 6 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. I think it is interesting that Paul says being held by the law we were dead, How so? being dead is being seperated from God. Look at Adam in the garden, he was told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for in that day he did he would surely die. Well he ate and he died, he was seperated from God, from God, Whom he had fellowship face to face Now through Christ, this fellowship has been restored as we walk in newness of spirit, a spirit that was dead but has been born again and now lives in Him, not in the oldness of the letter. And Gods law has been written in our hearts and has given us the power to love, therefore fulfilling the law for God is love. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. Notice that until the law was given sin was dead, We now live in the newness of the spirit, not the letter of the law. Our works of righteousness are not based upon the letter of the law, for if righteousness were based on the law, would Christ have to had died? 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Notice Paul says he was alive without the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive and he died, not the law caused his death (seperation from God), but sin taking its opportunity through the commandment did. The law can never justify a man unless he keep the whole law, if you break one of these commandments, you have broken them all. You speak of a carnal heart and what is a carnal heart but a heart that is self seeking and worldly. A heart of love is a heart that seeks after the welfare of others thus fufilling the laws spiritually as well as morally. These are the works that the scriptures speak of. I will continue my respose in another post. God bless. In Jesus kevin

Hi Dennis, Sorry about that, but as I mentioned I was on my way to work and didnt have the time to post all my thoughts. I see what you are saying and I have a few questions on your take of the above verses: Question 1 ..........in 1 John 3:3 ......My question on this verse is how does one make purify himself by works or by faith in Him? Question 2 ......You had said if one does not do the work then he denies the faith............What are these works you speak of? Question 3.....In 1 John 3:7 Again I ask the question what is the righteousness that we are to be doing? what are the works that make us righteous? By what means are they trying to decieve others as to what righteousness is? Again what are the works that make us Righteous? I am not trying to be difficult here, I am just trying to understand what you mean by abundantly clear? I am simply trying to find out what are the works in youir opinion that makes on righteous? If these works are works of the law, then what happens when we fail and fall short of keeping these laws? Wouldnt that be sin? Do you keep every ordinance of the laws daily? If so praise the Lord, if not then isnt this the same as living in and going on in sin? Again I apologize that I must cut this post short as I have to get to work but I do intend to get back on tonight and I look forward to seeing your views on thgesee questions I have. In Jesus kevin

Hi Dennis, Great question. I believe that the book of life is a book that contains everyone who was ever born of a woman. The ones who have been blotted out are those who have not been born again by the spirit of God. The judgement where this takes place is after the saints have been resurrected whom will not be judged in this judgement. This takes place after the millinial reign of Christ and His saints. Rev 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. If you look at Romans will will find your answers to this question. Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. We are not under law but under grace. This is a hard thing to grasp, but when we do we will find the freedom that was given to us by God when we we became born again by His Spirit. Galatians 3:18-20 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. We have the promise, the Lord Jesus Christ, we are no longer under the law as our means of justification before God, for by the law is no man justified. We are justified by the finished work of Christ. We are no longer judged by the law but by the finished work of Christ Who is the fulfillment of the law for God is Love and Jesus is God. Romans 3 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Its pretty clear by the above scripture that no man shall be justified by the deeds of the law, those who seek justification through the law are guilty before God by the very law that they seek justification. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Nitice that it is the faith of Jesus Christ, the same faith that is given to us as a gift from Him, "unto all and upon all them that believe" 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: It is only through the finished redemptive work of Christ and faith in the same, that any man will stand justified before the Father. Now back to the verses selected by you in 1 John 3 We sin not because we have entered into a new covenant with God, a covenant that was sealed with His Holy Spirit through the finished and complete work of Christ the covenant of grace through faith. The law reveals sin, and John is the reason that Christ was manifested was to take away our sins. Without faith in the finished work of Christ we remain in sin. If we abide in Him by being born again through faith in the finished work of Christ by we do not sin, if we rely upon our observance of the law for justification I.E. " whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him" But we know Him and are children of the Living God, John says that whosoever knows Him sinneth not, now if we are seek the law as justification we will see that we cannot help but sin, but through faith in Him we are no longer under the law as a means of justification. I thought I had enough time to get all my thougts down this morning, but I must run and get to work. I will try and finish this later tonight. God bless. In Jesus kevin

Along with E-sword, another good concordance is Bible-Gateway and can be found Here

Hi Dennis, I guess what I am trying to say by this statement, is that faith is something that is not of ourselves or originated from us, but from God. It is in this sense that I meant that it is automatic in that it is a gift from God. It something we must have in order to please God and He is the one Who provides this faith. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: I am not saying that one cannot deny the faith, as a matter of fact there are many who reject Christ and therefore deny or reject the gift of faith that is given freely of God. But when we respond to the grace that God reveals to us, we are given faith as a gift from God, it is in this sense that it is automatic (perhaps this is the wrong word to use) or freely given without any prerequisites. We can however increase in our faith through reading Gods word and through prayer and fellowship with God and His saints. They are a law unto themselves yes, but by following which of these laws do they obtain salvation? Paul is saying here that even without the Jewish law, man is born with a knowledge of good and evil and therefore are accountable for their actions. We are to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, which is total reliance upon and belief in the gospel of Christ, In that He by His baptism took upon Himself the sins of mankind. By His Crucifixion He took our judgement. By His blood He has cleansed us and made us pure before God the Father. By His resurrection He has defeated death and has given us eternal life. He being God Himself. It is by this belief in the above by the faith that God has freely given us that one is born again. How are we made worthy to participate in the Lords supper? by the finished redemptive work of God through faith in the same. We are not made worthy by any works that we have done which is one of the main themes that Paul addresses in 1 Cor. How are we judged and how do we judge ourselves? By believing in the above, by believing that Christ took our sins upon Himself through His baptism and also took our judgement through His Crucifixion, for we also were crucified with Him. Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. we are not judged by whether we observe the sabbath day or attend church service or if we give to the poor etc., not that there is anything wrong with the observation of and actions of such, but we will be judged on whether we are in and of Christ or not. Could it be that the faith is judged by the works, since a man created unto good works would have the evidence of the good works. So it would seem that faith and works are vitally connected. Now it is true many disagree as to what are the works, but I believe that is why God gave us the Scriptures, to show us what the works are. 'Thy word is a lamp unto my feet'. So it seems to me, that is why judgment begins at the house of God, to examine the works for they are evidence of the genuiness of one's faith. There are many professing goats and wolves in sheep's clothing that need to be separated from the wheat. God bless, Dennis The key word in the in this judgement you quote in revelation, is dead. The dead were judged. We are not dead brother, but we are very much alive in and through Jesus. Romans 6 ;11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. This is a beautiful thing. Death is simply separation from God, but through Christ we are brought near and made alive through Him and His baptism and crucifixion and His resurrection being made born again by His Spirit through faith that is provided by Him. Salvation is nothing that we have done nor can we earn it by anything that we could or should do. Salvation is through Jesus Christ and what He has done. When we believe this we enter into His rest, rest from our own works and we live and are made alive by faith in the finished work of Christ. Also I think Shiloh brings up a very good question here: I too am curious on what your take is on this. In Jesus kevin

Wow, the song "The First Christmas Gift" is awesome as are the others. Hope you dont mind me linking this as well The First Christmas Gift

Awesome song, thanks for the link!

Romans 4:4-6 (King James Version) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Works do not automatically flow from the believer and it is a good thing that it is not by these works that we are justified before God or we would all be in trouble. Faith however does automatically flow from the believer (not to say that it does not increase as we learn to trust and get to know God), this is the gift from God that allows us to believe in Him and approach Him for salvation and justification through the finished work of Christ. It is this faith that pleases God, and it is this faith that was given to us by God that we exercise in our pursuit of Him. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. This faith and pursuit of Him is what produces good works, works that are wrought in God that were prepared for us from the begginnig of creation. Now what are good works? Everyone I am sure has a different opinion of what they entail. Here is what Jesus told some to report back to John to show that He was indeed the Messiah: Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. Are we preaching the gospel the poor or are we just feeding them? Now feeding them is all good, but if they arent hearing the gospel, they are going to hell on a full stomach. Are we opening the eyes of the blind? many are spiritually blind and we can be a part of this presenting the gospel of our Lord and He will open, this along with cleansing them of the leporacy of sin, the lame to walk freely in the Lord, the deaf to hear what the Lord is saying to them through the gospel. Our greatest work is to introduce someone who is lost to the Lord Jesus and let Him perform the miracle of raising the dead by forgiving them their treaspasses against God, and giving them life in this world and the next. We do this by faith, and it is by this faith that God considers it to us as righteousness and by which we see the rigteousness of God. Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. It is by this faith that is God origionated by which we are justified before Him, not by any particular deed, or good work but by faith in Him. We are not to seek good works but we are to seek God and in our pursuit of Him we cant help but produce good works, but good works that are origionated in Him. It is by these works that people will reconize us as children of the Living God and bring glory to the Father. Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Luke 8:15-17 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. We are to let our light shine so that others may see and glorify God. These are the good works that the scriptures speak of. Luke 11:36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light. John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. The laws that were written our hearts were not a set of rules by which we seek justification for it is written all over that we are not justified by them but by faith: Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. but the fulfillment of these written laws is love: Romans 13:8-10 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. in otherwords as we grow in Christ we become love, for we become like Him and He is love: 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love Him, because He first loved us. This is the fulfillment of the law, to become like Him. In Jesus kevin

Just out of curiosity, by your statement Above, what value do you put on your opinion? I as well think you should read Wordsowers post. Instead of reading it and judgeing its merit, you have focused on the point that it was copied and pasted. I agree that it is a long post, and I havent read all of it, but plan to finish reading it later today (I work swing shift and was tired when I started reading it so I read only half so far) But from what I read, it was very good. If wordsowers views happen to agree with what this man has written. What is wrong with that?

I am glad you addressed this I.R., I was about to do the same when I read the last post here and you have taken care of it. By the way Wordsower, I liked at your site and although I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet, I do like what I have seen. Powerful testimony God bless you sis. In Jesus kevin