cherubim

"You are misunderstanding this completely." That's a leap of faith:) I understand it fully. Sometimes clear action can't be taken, yet some can in the situations you described, and action should be taken. My original post was that I struggled with the imprecatory psalms vs Christ's call to forgive, because they are polarities, and I wondered if anyone else struggled with this. I can't imagine that I'm the only one who struggles with this. For instance, I could "pray for enemies" by wishing them blessings, or I could "pray for enemies that God takes them out of circulation so they can't hurt anyone else." I'm unsure which way God intends for us to pray - but I imagine that's something He'll reveal to me as He determines since it's something I've struggled with. There have been many times when I've lamented like Habakuk, seeing the wicked prosper, and times I've prayed Psalm 73. There were times I prayed the 35th Psalm.

That's a good verse - thank you. The only thing is that the affliction caused by these two evil people was not light. It reminds me of when they had all the boy babies slain, trying to kill Christ. "...Rachel weeping for her children, and refusing to be comforted because they are no more..." I would put the level of suffering along these lines - there is no comfort. I've read many sermons on it through the years, and nothing I've read has ever helped for any length of time. In fact, while we struggle with money and health pressures, after working hard and getting nothing free, the one evil individual got every government freebie you can imagine, even free windows in her entire house, and then retired with a nice fat government pension and free health care. She screwed her own sister out of her house and got her son in there, and they got multiple government grants and assistance, and own a house on an acre of land. She fools everyone with a sickeningly sweet nice-to-your-face-stab-in-the-back - and she fools a lot of people. I did warn a few people about her - but the last I heard, she's still hoodwinking people, and now with her government pension is flitting all over on various vacations - courtesy of all of us while she left a lot of carnage in her wake. So it's hard to see that God knows what she is and doesn't remove her before she damages more people, or doesn't seem to hold her accountable for the evil she did already. I have seen this with a lot of evildoers - so Psalm 73 does fit, but how can you sustain these feelings that God will repay evildoers time after time and they prosper? The other Christian evildoer is a family that owns a church. They are very very corrupt - I was warned about them, but my husband wanted to go to their church. Sure enough, the warning was true, but not before they hurt people - very badly. I have seen some wonderful answered prayers - one recently, that was extremely imperative. It strengthened my faith. But when I look in my prayer journal, I have repeated unanswered prayers. I would love to finally be able to check an "Answered" box. When you see people so vile that they break the 10 commandments, and others who are so jealous of you that they try to deliberately harm you, then you look to God and say - isn't it time God? So, I don't have the answers, but am still seeking.

The wicked do seem to prosper - and it does hurt when you take pains to do right. I identify with the book of Habakuk. I don't know where God is going to lead - but I have sensed Him very close. Maybe He is getting ready to act.

Thank you for the reminder of that verse. I prayed Psalm 73 numerous times when I saw that wicked apparently triumphed. I just don't know that it comforted me all that much when the years went by and evildoers continued to prosper. I guess I'll go back to God again and pray for enlightenment.

I think it comes down to what is our responsibility vs God's. I don't think it's a cut and dry issue. Oversimplifying the issue has led to positive harm, since people may be lulled into thinking they never have to take action. I see that no one really has more insight into this than all the sermons I've read over the years. It's something I struggle with. All the verses are plain enough, but living it out doesn't seem like it's even for everyone. I've seen cases where judgment didn't fall on an evil person until someone took action, and other cases where judgment came without anyone acting. I don't know - I think it's a hard concept. I've seen people do horrible things and seemingly walk away scot free. In at least 2 cases it was professing believers. What they did was really bad. It reminds me of the verse in Revelations about the saints asking God how long it would be before He avenged their blood.

okay

No Abby - I don't assume that - I had a strong reaction due to the situation we just had. What they attempted to push on us was insane. Scripture states: "In a multitude of counselors there is safety. I don't have all the answers, or I wouldn't be here asking others' opinions. Sometimes, a person has fought through a situation and may know a strategy that works. I'll message you.

I'm unsure what you mean?

I don't disagree with you, but your interpretation of scripture is your own, if you think about it. Why do you believe yours is the correct interpretation? I think your interpretation is to an extent accurate - but it seems incomplete. Common sense should prevail, but even pastors seem to come up with their own interpretations. I think many people have been harmed - seriously - and made to feel bad on top of an original injury. I saw this played out. We were in a church years back, and this issue arose with a situation. The pastor's wife said: "No no no no no no no! Scripture states YOU MUST FORGIVE!" I just didn't believe God would pummel someone and try to jam "forgiveness" down someone's throat. Feelings take time to heal - if they even do.

I'm unsure of separating the Old and New Testaments - Christ even quoted from the Psalms. I don't know the link, but the teaching is: "Praying the Psalms for Spiritual Warfare - is it Scriptural." - it covers some of what I'm referring to. I have to come back to the topic in awhile.

I hope that I didn't wound you further with my words - I am so close to the recent situation with my grandson, that my reactions are strong. I know how deep the pain and distress must be. I hope that my experience can help you in some way. That is your grandchild, and I don't believe it is 'God's will' that you allow this convoluted situation to continue. I would find a lawyer - if it takes food off your table - or cut out other expenses to afford to pay a good lawyer. You are not likely to win without a lawyer. Look up their reviews.

I don't know if this is possible - or even advisable - in all cases. It's a thorny issue, interpreting what God's intentions are. David prayed "...mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, has lifted up his heel against me..." It has made me cautious, since the evil was so heinous, but yet I know satan can get a foothold through unforgiveness. It's something many have struggled with through the ages.

Thank you very much for your prayers. Domestic violence causes victims many issues, making *them* *appear* to be unfit. I learned this through extensive research, and also through a psychiatrist. I don't know what legal right your daughter's friend is standing on, but it can and should be challenged. You should not acquiesce to a judge's authority - many people don't realize their own power until they flex it. We are not completely out of the woods, but I told the judge we would not accept his decision. I think it's necessary to challenge them. If you just go away quietly, it's akin to assent. That's really sad - I hope that you prevail.

I would think that most have struggled with this. When someone does evil, I think it's right to ostracize them. The church did it many years ago - even ex-communicating. Some evil is so heinous, that to sweep it under the rug is dangerous. It's a very hard, very complicated issue. I just have not found sermons that have really hit the mark, and resolved the issues in my mind. Years back Dear Abby printed a letter from a woman who said that her husband beat her (this is not my problem - I have a good husband). She said that she went to a well-known pastor, who told her to "turn the other cheek." Abby's response was to the point: "I don't believe God expects you to turn the other cheek if the first one is black and blue." So I think these verses are very open to misinterpretation. I would like to have a settled feeling about certain people - one in particular. But how can you feel settled, when that person is a danger and you are on high alert? It's a hard thing. I haven't seen teaching yet that really deals with the nuts and bolts of the issues.

I didn't mean to come across as harsh - I'm sure it's very painful. I read a long time ago that some agency refused to hire Christians because they gave up too easily, and expected God to do what needed to be done. I just had a situation that was very serious, where my daughter's ex attempted to get custody. He and his new wife use drugs, and it would have been a disaster. I prayed very very hard, and asked others here to pray. I also mounted a strong offense. If you think it might help I can let you know what I did. If your daughter has changed her life, if her child was taken due to something she did, she can petition the court for a new custody hearing. But I would believe it to be wrong advice to tell her to roll over. God gave her the child - not her friend/ former friend. For someone to keep someone else's child, ripping him/her away from a birth mother - that's evil. I encountered evil of that magnitude, and other evils throughout my life. I have a difficult time squaring that with Scripture.

That's terrible. How did your daughter's "friend" get her child??? I am far different than you. I would turn over every stone until I got that child back. How can you justify "accepting" the situation? That child was given to your daughter, not her friend. I know a believer whose life has been good - and she never fights or opposes anything; but if we never oppose anything, nothing is likely to get changed.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Your "supposed" friend very well could be a believer - I have watched believers do very bad things over the years. That's a unique way of looking at it - that they stole from God - I just don't know if I can sustain that belief for long. It's hard to forgive someone when you have to live with the results of their evil every day.

Some acts perpetrated by evil people - sometimes even Christians - are unforgivable. I know the verse that you quoted, yet what about the verse: "IF your brother repents, forgive him?" What if someone never repented? I know that people will be judged for their works - it's just very difficult to see an evildoer, sometimes even a professing Christian, continue on doing damage and it looks like God isn't stopping them. It's a dilemma I've watched play out for over 35 years. Hasn't anyone here struggled with that?

I appreciate your opinion however. Have you ever struggled with this? Apparently many have struggled with it - I've read many sermons through the years on the topic, and it never quite resolved my questions.

I didn't take a verse out of context - you just quoted the entire verse. I'm very aware of lifting verses out of context. I asked if others struggled with not seeing God's retribution on evildoers, as promised. In the imprecatory psalms David prayed for the destruction of his enemies, and then Christ calls on us to forgive them. Even in Revelations the saints cried out, asking God how long it would be before He avenged them. I wondered how other believers have interpreted this. I watched ID and saw where many family members pushed for "justice" for their loved one who was a victim, and prevailed. If one is a believer, they may sit back and tell themselves "God will Avenge," instead of pursuing justice or revenge. It always has made me wonder where our responsibility stops and Gods begins. Even Christ doesn't give any guidelines - such as how long you are to pray for your enemies, and what to pray. What do others pray, and how long? I know someone who is an evil person, that has gone on for years causing destruction, and not being held accountable, and I can't understand why God hasn't done something to them. I know scripture states that God causes His sun to rise on the evil and good, yet you would think He would stop an evil person. I never agreed with believers stating the blithe "we're in a fallen world." Yes, it is fallen, but God has made promises - you can't ignore that or explain it away. Then you get to the dilemma of what is "justice" and what is "revenge." It's just something I've struggled with as a long-time believer.

Yes - that is the scripture that sums it up, but what about "when the wicked are cut off you will see it"? I'm surprised more believers haven't struggled with this.

I have a question that I have struggled with for a long time. In The Old Testament psalms, David prayed for judgment on his enemies - the "Imprecatory Psalms" - then Christ said to "love your enemies, pray for those who use and persecute you." When someone does something despicable to you - how are you supposed to know whether to pray for God's judgment on them, or pray *for* them? I'm a long time Christian and this still stumps me. I have seen people get away with atrocities, and do not appear to have gotten repaid for the evil they did. Even when Christ said to pray for your enemies, he didn't say specifically *what* to pray. Has anyone else stumbled with this?

Thanks - that situation resolved and she finally backed off. I sent her an email wishing her a happy birthday, but she's holding a grudge against me, when she was the one who did wrong. I did what I could. A worse trial hit - so I'm ready for a rest.

I AM BEGGING EVERYONE WHO READS THIS TO WARFARE PRAY FOR MY GRANDSON AND US. DEAR GOD - THE JUDGE HAS SATAN CONTROLLING HIS MIND. THE JUDGE FORCED MY GRANDSON TO GO TO VISITATIONS WITH HIS AMORAL FATHER WHO I *KNOW* IS CONTROLLED BY SATAN. PLEASE PRAY! MY GRANDSON DID FACETIAE WITH ME, AND I NOTICED HE SEEMED DEPRESSED. THEN MY DAUGHTER DROPPED HIM OFF AND CAME IN TO TALK WITH ME AND SAID HE'S BEEN MOODY, MEAN TO HIS TWO DOGS HE LOVES, BURST OUT CRYING WHEN HE COULDN'T DO SOMETHING SIMPLE, AND ASKED HER WHAT HE DID WRONG IN HIS LIFE TO HAVE THIS HAPPEN. PLEASE!!! I AM BEGGING EVERYONE WHO SEES THIS TO PRAY AGAINST THIS, AND ASK OTHER STRONG BELIEVERS TO PRAY. THE JUDGE IS DESTROYING MY GRANDSON PSYCHOLOGICALLY OVER A DEMONICALLY-CONTROLLED FOOL. I AM AFRAID FOR MY HUSBAND WHO HAS TAKEN CARE OF ME WITH NON-STOP PHYSICAL PROBLEMS, AND HE LOOKS LIKE HE'S READY TO DROP! HE HAD TO PAY THE LAWYER A LOT OF MONEY BECAUSE OUR DAUGHTER DOESN'T HAVE ANY. I AM BESIDE MYSELF. I KNOW GOD HEARS MY PLEAS BUT WE ARE UNDER *SEVERE* DEMONIC ATTACK AND NEED EVERYONE'S PRAYERS. THESE COURTS AND JUDGES CAN BE TOOLS FOR BELIAL.

My grandson has been forced to supervised visitations at court. It is absolutely INSANE - her ex rammed her and totaled her car! I don't know what that judge is thinking, but it's NOT RIGHT. Her ex has assaulted her numerous times and now the judge is ORDERING HER to be near him. We have no rights with those in positions of power. But I am appealing to God. PLEASE - I NEED EVERYONE'S HELP HERE. I AM SCARED TO DEATH THAT MY GRANDSON'S FATHER WILL GET HIM AND HE WILL RUIN HIM. HE CAN HARM MY DAUGHTER, AND HAS HURT HER. THAT JUDGE IS PLAYING WITH FIRE. I AM SICK WITH FEAR. PLEASE ASK ANYONE YOU KNOW TO PRAY FOR BRANDON.