Heb 13:8

Scripture will trump tradition and thousands of years of religion every time.

A spirit is a spirit no matter what year it is. lol.

I do agree. No, God leaves our souls in the grave to rest. Our spirit (breath) goes back to God. People do not exist in heaven as breath and wind. Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it. John 3:8 The wind (pneuma) blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit (pneuma)." ruach : breath, wind, spirit Original Word: ר֫וּחַ Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: ruach Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh) Short Definition: spirit pneuma : wind, spirit Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: pneuma Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah) Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit Definition: wind, breath, spirit. Well, you're missing the whole point. The fifth seal is symbolism wingnut. Can Abel's blood talk? Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" The "souls" - the dead saints - crying "avenge our blood" (Revelation 6:10) is similar to Abel's blood (his life, see Leviticus 17:14) crying to God from the ground (Genesis 4:10; Hebrews 11:4). Since neither blood nor the dead talk (Psalm 115:17; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10), we know that the meaning is not literal. The "souls under the altar," then, is a symbolic picture of the martyrdom of saints. 1 Cor 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

Yes. Give me an example. Notice Paul and John did not continue to live there. That's because they weren't in there resurrected bodies yet. Even Paul felt prematurely born.. 1 Cor 15:8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

No, the soul is sleeping. Sleeping is just another word for "dead". You can't hang out if you're dead. Are you underestimating the power of God? Read Genesis 1.

No, the body decays, but the soul is asleep until first resurrection. At first resurrection, God will breathe the breath of life back into us. There, our soul and body will become alive again, similar to how the two witnesses are raised up.. Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. 1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

It does. Our soul exists because of our bodies. God breathed His Spirit into our bodies and created our soul. You have a soul correct? Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

RM, you are cleansed because you are saved. Why do you think it's called "the finished work of the cross"? Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

I do believe in soul sleep. Hades is translated the "grave", it's not a temporary place where people are alive and wait for judgment. Job 34:14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, Job 34:15 all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.

Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

No, they didn't. Soul, spirit and body cannot live without each other. And what do you think the Hebrew and Greek word is for "spirit". Do we exist as wind and breath in heaven? Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it. John 3:8 The wind (pneuma) blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit (pneuma)." ruach: breath, wind, spirit Original Word: ר֫וּחַ Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: ruach Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh) Short Definition: spirit pneuma: wind, spirit Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: pneuma Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah) Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit Definition: wind, breath, spirit. So, if Rev 12:1-5 great sign already came to pass 2,000 years ago, why can't we find it on Stellarium. This sign takes place in the heavens where the sun, moon, stars and planets reside. Stellarium is a star tracking software. On Stellarium this sign only appears once in 7,000 years, on 9/23/17.

Gotcha. Just one more question.. Does Matt 25:1-13 parable, John 15:1-17 allegory and Rom 11:11-24 metaphor prove that OSAS is false? Thank you. - Heb 13:8

No Paul does not say we have two bodies. 1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne. The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea, Acts 8:39 and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven, 2 Cor 12:2-4. Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

Right, so why do you believe souls are in heaven and hell right now and not resting in their graves?

Yes there would be a way to reunite us. It's called the power of God.

No, the building from God is the resurrected body, as it clearly states in Rom 8:18-25, 1 Cor 15:50 and 2 Cor 5:1-4. These are all first resurrection and rapture scriptures.

Correct, the resurrected body cannot be destroyed. Very good. Are you starting to get it? IF IF IF.. II Corinthians 5 For we know that IF our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, WE HAVE a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

I have a better idea. See if you can connect the dots in red here. What do you see? Do you see the first resurrection? Take your time... 1. groan 2. redemption of our bodies 3. clothe / clothed / unclothed Rom 8:18-25 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 2 Cor 5:1-4 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

You're taking one passage and drawing a conclusion from it, is sloppy exegesis. Paul here is saying he would rather be clothed in his resurrected body than be naked in the grave. The "tent" he is speaking of is our resurrected body.. Rom 8:18-25 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 2 Cor 5:1-4 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. No there are no souls under the alter. It's symbolic wingnut, similar to how Abel's blood doesn't talk.

I do believe there are mansions in heaven, but scripture doesn't go into much detail of what our seven years in heaven will be like. Think of it this way. 12,000 stadia in Rev 21:16 in height extends well into space and well beyond the borders of Israel. John gave us unrealistic numbers to show us that he is in fact describing the beauty of the church. CITY/CRYING/GATES/WALLS Scripture also uses walls and gates as symbolism for salvation and praise, and there will no longer be weeping and crying and pain in the NJ. It also references believers as a city... Isa 60:18 No longer will violence be heard in your land, nor ruin or destruction within your borders, but you will call your walls Salvation and your gates Praise. Isa 62:12 They will be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD; and you will be called Sought After, the City No Longer Deserted. Isa 65:19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. Rev 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Rev 21:15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates (praise) and its walls (salvation). DIFFERENT NAMES FOR BELIEVERS Scripture gives multiple names to describe believers. It's all referring to the same people, believers.. 1. The bride Psa 45:13-14, Isa 61:10, Isa 62:4-5, Rev 19:6-10 2. The church Eph 5:25-27, Rev 2:26-29 3. Born again Christians John 3:3-7 4. The New Jerusalem Rev 3:12, Rev 21:2 5. The Holy City Rev 21:2, Rev 21:9-10 6. A great multitude Rev 5:9, Rev 7:9 Rev 19:1, 6 7. The armies of heaven Rev 19:14 8. The wife of the lamb Rev 21:9-10 DIMENSIONS OF THE NJ I do believe 375 miles in width, length and height are figurative numbers to describe the body of Christ.. Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. Rev 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, Rev 21:16 Barnes' Notes on the Bible - And he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs - As eight furlongs make a mile, the extent of the walls, therefore, must have been three hundred and seventy-five miles. Of course, this must preclude all idea of there being such a city literally in Palestine. This is clearly a figurative or symbolical representation; and the idea is, that the city was on the most magnificent scale, and with the largest proportions, and the description here is adopted merely to indicate this vastness, without any idea that it would be understood "literally." The length, and the breadth, and the height of it are equal - According to this representation, the height of the city, not of the walls (compare Revelation 21:17), would be three hundred and seventy-five miles. Of course, this cannot be understood literally, and the very idea of a literal fulfillment of this shows the absurdity of that method of interpretation. The idea intended to be conveyed by this immense height would seem to be that it would contain countless numbers of inhabitants. It is true that such a structure has not existed, and that a city of such a height may seem to be out of all proportion; but we are to remember:

The New Jerusalem is not a material building, it's actually the body of Christ. Scripture describes the Holy City, New Jerusalem as the bride/the body of Christ in the following. Also take note of the symbolism in Isa 60:18, Isa 62:12 and Isa 65:19 below.. Psa 45:13-14 / Song of Solomon 1:4 All glorious is the princess within her chamber; her gown is interwoven with gold. 14 In embroidered garments she is led to the king; her virgin companions follow her— those brought to be with her. Isa 61:10 / Job 29:14 I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. Isa 62:4-5 / Isa 54:1-6 TRAVAIL / Isa 60:18 WALLS&GATES / Isa 62:12 CITY / Isa 65:19 CRYING / Hosea 2:19-20 No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah ; for the LORD will take delight in you, and your land will be married. 5 As a young man marries a young woman, so will your Builder marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you. John 3:27-30 To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.” 2 Cor 11:2-3 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. Eph 5:25-27 / John 3:3-7 / Rom 10:9-10 / 1 Cor 6:10-11 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. Rev 3:12 / Rev 2:26-29 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. Rev 19:6-10 / Matt 1:20 HOLY SPIRIT CONCEIVED Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. 8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.) 9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” 10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.” Rev 21:9-10 / Rev 19:7 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

Nah, hollywood says otherwise Job 34:14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.

Paul here is saying he would rather be clothed in his resurrected body than be naked in the grave. The "tent" he is speaking of is our resurrected body.. Rom 8:18-25 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 2 Cor 5:1-4 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Why is that weird.

Teknon the church in Rev 12:4-5 is referring to the body of Christ that already believes.