Quasar93

The coming pre-trib. rapture of the Church, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul: BMt.24:31: And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out. Lk.21:36: "Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." Jn.14:2-4 and 28: "In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4]. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28]. For 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 et al: http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the-pretrib-rapture-of-the-Church#.WE7O-eQzVpw Quasar93

FYI, "the day of Christ" in the KJV is a mistranslation as I can readily prove to you in another post. It is nearly 100% "day of the Lord," in 2 Thess.2:3. Review the following facts for your edification: It's clear you are more interested in attempting to prove non-Scriptural eschatology than to learn what the Scriptural truth is. Review the following that was previously posted, you are ignoring: 2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine]. The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age. In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below. Translation History of apostasia and discessio: [2 Thess.2:3] By Thomas Ice, PhD. The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth]. The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed in verse 7-8: In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way." The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that: In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21]. The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8. From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures. Quasar03

First of all, Jesus ministry in His first advent, was exclusively to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and 10:5-6. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:13. As such, there is nothing whatever in the Olivet discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13, and Luke 21 that has a single thing to do with the Church. When Jesus returns in His second coming to earth, as recorded in Mt.24:30, which He amplified in Rev.10:14, it will be with His Church, after His marriage to them in heaven, according to Rev.19:7-8, He caught up into the sky with Him, seven years earlier, in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. In the second place, when I am confronted with those who dogmatically contradict the Biblical facts I have posted, I will let them know, I am not an amateur layperson expositor by my qualifications to teach the Bible. Not someone who is setting forth my personal views of end times eschatology. Furthermore, my guidance and direction as to what I post comes directly from my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. No one else. Quasar93

You have raised many questions in rebuke of my post on this page above, on the chronological order of end times events. My response to you can be found in the link I will post below, that consists of two posts, consecutively. The first one is the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church. The second one consists of the Scriptural proof of it. I suggest you pay particular attention to the translation history of the following verse in 2 Thess.2:3 for the precise timing of the rapture, which refutes most of your rebuttal. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the- Quasar93

FYI, there is no Bible College in the world where the amateur layman teaches the teacher. I suggest you keep that in mind. Review the Chronological order of end times events I posted on this page (43), the third post from the top for the Scriptural support it has, in the verification of it. Which is fully endorsed by the following men of God, from every walk of Christian teaching. 1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D. Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth. The following link is the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, complete with Scriptural proof. There is no such thing taught in the Bible, as a pre-wrath/mid-trib or post trib rapture, let along a post mill rapture you are suggesting. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the- Quasar93

There Were Giants in Those Days "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." Gen 6:4 In this section we take a look at some of the still available evidence that men of giant stature�even larger and more robust than �Neanderthal� man existed in the past. It�s not an area that evolutionists really deal with at all. In fact, science barely acknowledges that these giant footprints in rock or very large human bones even exist. It (very large, modern man) certainly does not fit in with evolutionary theory. Christians generally believe that there were apes and there were men in the past. Evolutionists are not willing to accept that there existed in the past giant versions of modern man because there is no evolutionary explanation for their existence, just as there is no real attempt to explain giant versions of modern day animals. (Left to Right, 6 foot Male, Goliath, "Gigantopithecus" and in comparison, Og, King of Bashan) On the other hand, those who believe that God created the world know that according to the Bible, men of giant stature once walked the earth. The Bible quite matter-of-factly states that there were giants in those days (before the flood) and also after. A Christian, believing as he does that Goliath actually existed, does not need to be concerned with the confused state of anthropology and its controversies, he might wonder if evidence of these races and countries of giant men have been found? The answer, without having to sort ape from proto-ape and alleged proto-human is yes..as we will continue to see. Finally, before begin looking at some of the evidence that giants actually lived, we want to point out one glaring, obvious fake story prevalent on the net: The Kossuth Giants. What the Bible Says About Giants 2 Samuel 21 In still another battle, which took place at Gath, there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot--twenty-four in all. He also was descended from Rapha. When he taunted Israel, Jonathan son of Shimeah, David's brother, killed him. Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. Deuteronomy 2:11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims. Deuteronomy 2:20 (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims; Deuteronomy 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man. Deuteronomy 3:13 And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants. Modern Polydactly Click and drag photo to resize. Script from The Java Script Source (Photo: an example of polydactly and a minor case of double rowed teeth)As we will see in looking at these snippets of evidence, six fingers and/or six toes and double rows of teeth are characteristics often associated with giants. Click here for Larger view and additional examples Click and drag photo to resize. Script from The Java Script Source (Photos from Last Refuge.com) "Near Braytown, on the headwaters of the Tennessee river, were found some remarkable footprints impressed in what is now solid rock. The tracks included those of a human heel ball thirteen inches wide!" The marks clearly showed that the fellow whose stride in that distant day turned to stone had six toes on each foot. Source: Stranger Than Science, by Frank Edwards Deu 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead [was] a bedstead of iron; [is] it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits [was] the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man. It doesn't make a big deal about them--no theological points about them except that God's people could defeat anyone. Scripture states that Goliath was about 9 feet tall. Og, King of Bashan described above was thought to have been taller; his bed needed to be made of iron and was about 15 feet by 6 to 7 feet wide (literally, king sized). He was thought to be 10 to 12 feet tall and proportionate. A cubit is conservatively estimated to be approximately 20 inches. Go to the following for the complete data and article: http://www.s8int.com/giants1.html See also: http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp Quasar93

Supposing you show me any so called demand I have made on you. And FYI, I've been posting on Christian discussion forums for 16 years now and have one of my own in addition. Let me know when you have something to contribute to the discussion! Quasar93

The prophetic chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows: 1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. 2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin. 3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27. Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21. 4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948. 5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. 6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14. 7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26... 8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end. 9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. 10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them.. 11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9. 12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10. 13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled. 14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16. 15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever. Quasar93

What I wrote in my post you quoted has precise exegesis that Scripturally supports the events the subject text is describing. If I understand you correctly, you claim the first resurrection is concurrent with the second one, said to be 1,000 years later. Review the following Scriptural facts: The Thousand Years 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. The Judgment of Satan 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The Judgment of the Dead [This is the second resurrection, 1,000 years after the first one in Rev.20:4]. 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. It may interest you to know, I earned my qualifications to teach the Bible from Dr. Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty University; the late Dr. John Walvoord, former President of Dallas Theological Seminary, and Dr. Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary. And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible? Review the next post for the chronological order of end times events. Quasar93

It has been my understanding this is a public forum. As such, it is also my understanding, it is not exclusively ordained to any member here, but rather, an open site for al members to express their views, as I have done. If you can present Scriptural rebuttal to my post, rather than op0inion, then please do so, Show me where I have not supported what I posted with Scripture. Quasar93

If we are searching, we can learn something new every day, can't we? Gen.1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Ps.24:1 "The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; 2 for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters." 2 Pet.3:5 "But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water" Hope this helps. Quasar93

You labor under false pretenses. The views I posted providing Scriptural proof for the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church are in the second and third posts of page 41. I did not mention 1 Cor.15:52-54 because it was neither necessary nor is it primarily connected to the rapture, but rather, to the resurrection, Paul was teaching in 1 Cor.15. Though many expositors believe 1 Thes.4:16 represents a resurrection of the dead in Christ, I do not, for the following reasons: Beginning with the advent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, every believer who has died in Christ, has done so, each in his own turn,, the firstfruits of every generation since then, to the present day, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:23. When and as the each die, Jesus raises them to heaven with Him, in glorified, immortal bodies, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7, in the same way all those left on earth alive at Jesus coming, in verse 15, will be translated in verses 16-17. Jesus will bring all those who previously died in Him, from heaven, when He returns, in verse 14. They will all meet together in the sky according to verse 17. In the second place, the rapture of the Church will take place seven years before the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4, Jesus informed John, will be the FIRST one. What Paul meant, IMO, when he wrote in 1 Thess.4:16, 'The dead in Christ will rise first," was the fourth, of his assurances to the Thessalonians, those of theirs who had previously died in Christ, will not miss the rapture of the Church he had been teaching them about, as recorded in verses 13, 14 and 15, as well as the one in verse 16. He did not document it as a resurrection, and it would be in direct conflict with Jesus calling the one in Rev.20:4, seven years later , the FIRST one, if he did. The fact of the matter is, even if a resurrection was intended, in 1 Thess.4:16, it wouldn't make one bit of difference to that which I have enunciated, in the final prophetic fulfillment of the issue. Quasar93

Now that you have expressed your opinions, show me who you think the sons of God and the Nephilim are together with the origin of the demons, that I clearly delineated in my OP about them. As for the Flood of Noah, it was the second of two global floods the earth has had, The first one is described in Gen.1:2. You will have a very difficult time trying to prove there was no such thing. Explain to me, for example, what caused the following, if wasn't clearly from flood waters that covered the earth at one time. This is another subject from this thread. If you want to debate this issue, why don't you start another thread for it? https://www.google.com/search?q=Monument+Valley+pics&hl=en&biw=1067&bih=517&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=q4KOTr25Ncnr0gG3zPwx&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQsAQ&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=hc37QTKlM_5-1M%3A And there is much, much more of the above from where it came from. Quasar93

Reference to the Antichrist in my OP pertains to the one Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to in Rev.13:1-2. The beast out of the sea is the final world ruler, the Antichrist, before the return of Jesus in His second coming, at the end of the seven year tribulation, who will throw him into the lake of fire along with the False Propjet, according to Rev.19:11-21. The dragon of Rev.13, is Satan, who is identified as the dragon in Rev.12. Quasar93

Meaning everyone through a given time frame of history. Quasar93

About the sons of God, the Nephilim and demons: First of all, demons are not fallen angels, In the second place, where did the sons of God, come from ? With that having been determined, the sons of God, are spirit beings, as is God and the angels. "When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose." Gen.6:1-2. Keep in mind, Jesus inferred angels do not marry nor are given in marriag - in heaven - according to Mt.22:30. In other words, these sons of God left their first estate and citizenship in heaven, and went to the earth, with the power to become visible and appear as any physical normal man and married a daughter of human men. The offspring they had with human women, resulting in their children being the Nephilim/giants, born to them as recorded in Gen.6:4. Take note of this important fact: The Nephilim were hybrid regarding the origin of their first estate or "citizenship," because they did not come as a citizen from heaven, nor as a natural human being, which is what this thread is all about. Up to this point, we have found that the sons of God/fallen angels, who came down to the earth from heaven, and had children by human women, who then lost their first estate in heaven. God then imprisoned them until the day of judgement, according to 1 Pet.2:4 and Jude 6. The fallen angels here, were only part of those belonging to Satan, who is still very active with the rest of his angels. Reference to Satan and his angels being cast from heaven, is prophecy, as recorded in Rev.12:9, yet to come, during the 70th and final week [7 years] of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. Also recorded as Jesus Olivet Discourse of the 7 year tribulation, in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21. Prophecy yet to be fulfilled. That leaves us with the hybrid Nephilim, described in the Scriptures as giants both before the flood of Noah in Gen.6:4 - and after the flood in Num.13:33; Dt.1:28; 3:11; 9:2; Josh.11:22; 12:2, 4; 1 Sam17:4-7 and 1 Chr.20:6-8. How could the Nephilim, the giants who lived before the flood of Noah be present on the earth after the flood, as recorded in Gen.6:4, when the flood killed everyone on the earth except Noah and his seven family members? The only logical answers to that is that all the sons of God/fallen angels were not all caught and thrown into the Abyss/prison until after the flood of Noah. That more of Satan's sons of God/angels sought after the daughters of men/human women, after the flood of Noah. Remember, the hybrid Nephilim had no previous estate, "citizenship," with either the heavenly host or to humanity. Therefore, their spirit/souls were relegated to remain earthbound until the day of judgement, seeking to get into whatever body they could find to do so, regardless of whether human or animal, as recorded in Lk.8:26-33. That is what/who the demons were/are. The Book of Isaiah says that the Nephilim and their descendants will not participate in a resurrection, as will all normal human beings. Isaiah 26:14 reads: "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise." The original Hebrew word translated "deceased" here is the word "Rephaim," the name of a giant people, recorded in Jos.12:4 and in 13:12. It would have saved a lot of misinterpretation if the translators had left the word as it was in the original. The verse actually reads: "Dead, they shall not live; Rephaim, they shall not rise." The Rephaim were one of the clan of the Nephilim, and God's Word makes it clear that they will not participate in any resurrection. But with humans it is different: who will all be resurrected either to life or to damnation (John 5:28-29). Which leads us to examine the bodily death of the Nephilim, and the "binding to earth" of their spirits, seeking the bodies of others to invade, as the demons found recorded in the Scriptures, which will be covered later. From Book 1 of Enoch, is the following except from Chapter 15, he writes of the Nephilim/giants, beginning with point 6.: "But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever!" 7. "Therefore I made no wives for you, because you being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven." 8. "Now the giants who have been born of spirit and flesh, shall be called upon the earth evil spirit/demons, and on the earth shall be their habitation. Evil spirits shall proceed from their flesh, because they were created from above; from the holy watchers/sons of God was their beginning and primary foundation. Evil spirits/demons shall they be upon the earth, and the spirits/demons of the wicked shall they be called. The habitation of the spirits of heaven shall be in heaven; but upon earth shall be the habitation of terrestrial spirits, who are born on earth." 9. "The spirits of the Nephilim/giants shall be like clouds, which shall oppress, corrupt, fall, contend, and bruise upon the earth." 10. "They shall cause lamentation. No food shall they eat; and they shall be thirsty; they shall be concealed, and shall not rise up against the sons of men, and against women; for they came forth during the days of slaughter and destruction." Accordingly, the bodies of the Nephilim died, but their spirit/souls remain on earth as the evil spirit/demons present during the days of Jesus, as seen in 8:28-32. Without bodies, they try to find bodies to get into. How big does the Bible describe these Nephilim/giants to be after their spirit/souls found bodies to live in after the flood of Noah ? "Only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaites. His bed was made of iron and was more than thirteen feet long and six feet wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites." Dt.3:11 "A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp, he was over nine feet tall. He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze weighing 5,000 shekels [over 156 pounds]; on his legs he wore bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin was slung on his back. His spear shaft was like a weaver's rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels [18.75 pounds]. His shield bearer went ahead of him." 1 Sam.17:4-7 http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/4073655/SONS-GOD-DAUGHTERS-MEN-NEPHILIM-ORIGIN-DEMONS#.WErSS-QzVpy See also: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/giants.htm And: http://www.bibleprobe.com/nephilim.htm Quasar93

The term antichrist found in the Bible: 1 Jn.2:18; 2:22 and 4:3 Titles of the antichrist in the Bible: The "Beast" Revelation 6:2; 11:7; 13:1-18; 17:8,11,16; 19:19,20 and 20:4. The "Little Horn" Daniel 7:7-8 The stern-faced king Dan.8.23-25 "And he shall confirm a covenant" Dan.9:27 The King Who "Does What He Pleases" "Magnifies Himself Above God", and "Speaks Monstrous Things Against God" Daniel 11:36-45 The "Foolish Shepherd" and the "Worthless Shepherd" Zechariah 11:15-17 The "Man of Sin", the "Son of Destruction", and the "man of lawlessness" 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 4 and 8. Quasar

1. The statement is unqualified without Scriptural verification as to where you are coming from. Xhow me the Scripture that supports that statement. 2. Your post is what is without support, leaving a person to guess at the specifics of what you are saying. While my response to you is fully supported with Scriptural verification. As a qualified Bible teacher, I am defending nothing, but rather, posting the proper interpretation for the subject being discussed. If I have posted something that makes no sense to you, then by all means spell out sp0ecifically what it is and I will be more than happy to make sense of it for you. 3. 1 Thess.4:16, is not a resurrection, as you and many other expositors believe. The time frame of the event is when Jesus returns in the clouds of the sky and all believers will meet Him there, From there, He will take us all to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28. Before the tribulation begins, as documented in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, confirming the symbolic Rev.4:1-2 and the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. When the tribulation is almost over, Jesus will return WITH His Church, in His armies from heaven, recorded in Rev.19:14. 4. All of it is that is not supported by Scripture, which then pin points the remarks you claim, or ewfutes them. Quasar83

I have a problem with my thoughts well ahead of the ability for my old stiff fingers to write those thoughts down. I meant to say, there are no GENERAL resurrections until the seven year tribulation has ended, as recorded in Rev.19:11-21. Quasar93

Critique of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the There are eschatological errors in Marv Rosenthal's book, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture." The following is a cursory view of some, which follow: The first one is the his placement of the beginning of the Day of the Lord at Rev.8 just before the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements. When the fact of the matter is, God begins His timetable to end this present age at the beginning of the 70th and final week in Dan.9:27, with the advent of the antichrist. Who He allows Satan to bring up out of the Abyss [Hell], in Rev.17:8, the man of lawlessness of 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8 who is revealed after the Church is caught up/apostasia/discessio/depart to be with the Lord. Who then takes us to our Father in heaven, as He promined us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28! The one who confirms a covenant/agreement with many and is the trigger that starts the 70th and final week/seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord, as Paul states in 2 Thes.2:2. The fact that Rosenthal sets the beginning of the Day of the Lord at the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements, in Rev.8, ending with the second coming of Christ is the next error. The antichrist is seen in the very first of the seven seals, the first of the four horsemen, riding the white horse, in Rev.6:2, confirming the "he" in Dan.9:27 who confirms the covenant/agreement with many, triggering the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord will never end after it begins with the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as pin pointed in 2 Thes.2:1-3, followed immediately with the antichrist being revealed who triggers the seven year tribulation, confirming Dan.9:27. As it also consists of the blessings of God for all His people during the Millennial kingdom of Christ here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. Another error is the fact that Rosenthal involves the Church in the tribulation, all the way through six of the seven seals, after the antichrist is revealed as the first of the four horsemen, in the first of the seven seals, which Paul clearly states will not be revealed until after the departure of the Church, in 2 Thes.2:3. The next error is the fact that the Church has nothing whatever to do with the ministry of Jesus during His entire first advent, He made abundantly clear, was exclusively to the "lost sheep of Israel," in Mt.15:24 as well as in Mt.10:5-6. His Olivet Discourse in Mt.24:4-31 and counterparts of Mk.13 and Lk.21 do not address the Church in any way, because it did not exist before the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. The Church is caught up to be with the Lord in 1 Thes.4:13-18, from where He takes us to be with our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, before the Day of the Lord/the 70th week of Daniel/the seven year tribulation begins, in 2 Thes.2:1-8. Both Post-trib as well as pre-wrath rapture positions are refuted by 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, that prove the pre-trib rapture teachings, together with Jn.14:2-3, 28. Quasar93

Greetings RCruise: Though your post is quite old as today, it is a case and point of eisegesis that is not possible by the Scriptures. Because the coming of Jesus for all believers in 1 Thess.4:16-17 is seven years apart from the first resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4. Review the following Scriptural facts: Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options! The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts: 1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11. 2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!. 3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. 4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1. Quasar93

Critique of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the There are eschatological errors in Marv Rosenthal's book, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture." The following is a cursory view of some, which follow: The first one is the his placement of the beginning of the Day of the Lord at Rev.8 just before the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements. When the fact of the matter is, God begins His timetable to end this present age at the beginning of the 70th and final week in Dan.9:27, with the advent of the antichrist. Who He allows Satan to bring up out of the Abyss [Hell], in Rev.17:8, the man of lawlessness of 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8 who is revealed after the Church is caught up/apostasia/discessio/depart to be with the Lord. Who then takes us to our Father in heaven, as He promined us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28! The one who confirms a covenant/agreement with many and is the trigger that starts the 70th and final week/seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord, as Paul states in 2 Thes.2:2. The fact that Rosenthal sets the beginning of the Day of the Lord at the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements, in Rev.8, ending with the second coming of Christ is the next error. The antichrist is seen in the very first of the seven seals, the first of the four horsemen, riding the white horse, in Rev.6:2, confirming the "he" in Dan.9:27 who confirms the covenant/agreement with many, triggering the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord will never end after it begins with the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as pin pointed in 2 Thes.2:1-3, followed immediately with the antichrist being revealed who triggers the seven year tribulation, confirming Dan.9:27. As it also consists of the blessings of God for all His people during the Millennial kingdom of Christ here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. Another error is the fact that Rosenthal involves the Church in the tribulation, all the way through six of the seven seals, after the antichrist is revealed as the first of the four horsemen, in the first of the seven seals, which Paul clearly states will not be revealed until after the departure of the Church, in 2 Thes.2:3. The next error is the fact that the Church has nothing whatever to do with the ministry of Jesus during His entire first advent, He made abundantly clear, was exclusively to the "lost sheep of Israel," in Mt.15:24 as well as in Mt.10:5-6. His Olivet Discourse in Mt.24:4-31 and counterparts of Mk.13 and Lk.21 do not address the Church in any way, because it did not exist before the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. The Church is caught up to be with the Lord in 1 Thes.4:13-18, from where He takes us to be with our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, before the Day of the Lord/the 70th week of Daniel/the seven year tribulation begins, in 2 Thes.2:1-8. Quasar93

The prophetic chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows: 1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. 2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin. 3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27. Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21. 4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948. 5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. 6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14. 7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26... 8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end. 9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. 10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them.. 11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9. 12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10. 13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled. 14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16. 15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever. Quasar93

It is clear, you have not read the two other posts of mine I added to this thread this morning. They are the culmination of my research and studies under the late Dr. John Walvoord, former President of Dallas Theological Seminary and Dr. Dwight Pentecost, Dean at the same Seminary. Covering a period of 34 years. What you have presented is meaningless opinion, without supporting Scripture to verify your claims. One thing I notice you fail to understand, is the fact that Jesus ministry during His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, He made abundantly clear, in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.There are only three passages of Scripture in the combined Gospels that have anything to do with the Church at all. They are all posted on the first of my two posts about the pre-trib rapture of the Church, today. FYI. there are NO resurrectios that will take place BEFORE the first one in Rev.20:4, after the seven year tribulation has ended. I will post the proper Biblical chronological order of end times events, in my next post, for your evaluation Quasar93

Greetings seeking the lost: I explained by Scripture, why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection. Paul is addressing the [Thessalonian] Church. Seven years later Jesus is revealing to John, the tribulation martyrs/saints are the FIRST resurrection in Rev.20:4. The tribulation martyrs/saints are the same multitude as those recorded in Rev.7:9-17, who are brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in Rev.7:1-8, God will place on the earth in the absence of the departed Church, as He will do with His two witnesses in Rev.11:3. They were the ones left behind, when the Church is Caught Up. raptured, to be with the Lord, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as documented symbolically in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. As explained in the first, of my two posts covering the Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. Unless I mistake what you have implied, those who RISE first in 1 Thess.4:16, have nothing at all to do with the FIRST resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4. The two evens are seven years apart, in the first place, in the second place, the Church age ends at the rapture of the Church. Those who are resurrected in Rev.20:4, do not belong to the Church. In the third place, Jesus returns to earth from the marriage to the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus , in heaven, WITH His Church, all believers prior to the tribulation, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 24, PRIOR to the FIRST resurrection in Rev.20:4. After Jesus return to the earth, in Rev.19:14, He will establish His kingdom on earth for 1,000 years, according to Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:10 among many other passages. The second resurrection will take place at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth at the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev.20:11-15, according to Rev.20:5. Every believer who dies before the Lord returns for His Church, left here on earth alive at His coming, in Jn.14:2-3 and 26 and 1 Thess.4:16, is going to return from heaven with Jesus when He comes, as recorded in verse 14. They are all firstfruits, who each died in his/her own generation, until the major harvest takes place at the pre-trib rapture of the Church. None of which has a thing to do with any resurrection. I have purposely left out other events that also take place in between these relevant events, because they are irrelevant. What Paul meant in 1 Thess.4:6, by the dead in Christ rising first, was the fourth of his assurances to the Thessalonians, that their dead in Christ would not miss the rapture of the Church he had been teaching them about, beginning in 1 Thess.4:13, in 14 he explains why, mentions it again in 15 and ends it in 16. God Bless! Quasar93