4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

There, it seems to me, that the woman is Israel, she gave birth to a male child, a ruler over the nations who was caught up to the throne of God, how many people does that describe, I can think of only one!

It has been argued, and one can find some support for it in the OT that the the giving birth is the catching away of the body of Messiah.   Not sure that is the case, but it is curious.  Especially since Yeshua was not caught up as a child and the "caught up" is the same Greek "harpazo" that Paul uses to describe the believers being caught up to the Lord

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

So what do we have, we have the nations who get destroyed, and Christian who are dying because they will not submit, and the third group, those that escape and are protected by God. So, everyone is present and accounted for. Unbelievers are wiped out, Christian dying in persecution, but they come back with Jesus, and I know I do not have to tell you the verses you know them perfectly well, but does God destroy the Jews He just protected? Of course not.

In Matthew 25 is the judgement is occurring and there is dialogue going on between the Lord and those being judged, both the righteous and the unrighteous of the nations who are gathered when the Lord returns. So here, it is the unrighteous who the Lord is dialoguing with and stating the case....

Matthew 25:41-45 (NKJV) "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

So it would seem that the unbelievers are not wiped out as you suggest before the Lord comes.   Everyone left alive from that period is present....  those that came to faith in Messiah during that time, those that remained unbelievers, and the remnant of Israel who also will be separated out just as those of the nations are according to Ezekiel 20.  

So the conundrum for the post trib folks still remains.... if the righteous are caught up to be with the Lord at the END of the tribulation period as He is coming back, then there are no righteous of the nations to separate out from the unrighteous, complete with dialogue between the both groups of individuals and the Lord, on the physical earth in the area of Jerusalem.  The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation period will have their own separation judgement to undergo. 

So whether it is the nations or the people of Israel, there are righteous and unrighteous who will be separated out after the Lord returns. 

10 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

The Bible is a spiritual book. It did not come from the minds of men. In God's time His Word is progressively revealed to His people, and that means not everyone.

Indeed it is.   But was the Adamic Covenant not literal but just an allegory?   How about the Noahic Covenant?   Of that one, even James heading up the Jerusalem council said that was still in effect for gentiles that come to faith in Messiah.   What of the Abrahamic Covenant?  The Lord was very clear that as long as the sun is during the day, the moon is during the night, and the waves roar on the seashore, that covenant is still in effect.  Even to a thousand generations.   And Gabriel seemed to think the Davidic Covenant was literal, as he reaffirmed it to Mary when he told her she was going to bear the Messiah.

So it still remains.   If there is no objective standard to determine what is to be seen as literal and what is seen as allegory, then anyone can change the goal post anytime they want.   That leads to all sorts of confusion and misapplication of the scripture.

The HS uses many rhetorical devices in scripture, and allegory is one of them.  When the scripture says that the Lord protects the righteous under His wings, it is obvious that is an allegory because to think it is literal would imply that God has feathers.

Unless the context implies an allegory, it is not within our right to impose an allegorical meaning on the text.    The default position should always be the the text means exactly what it says unless the context suggests otherwise.   Origen and Augustine really messed things up when they incorporated gnostic exegesis into things.  In other words, making allegory the default position.   Uh oh.... that came from the minds of men!   

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

care to expand that, unravel it, with a bit more explanation to what your are trying to say?

Fair enough.

My previous post was directed to those who feel that the removal of the righteous (rapture) occurs at the same time that Messiah is coming back at the end of the tribulation period.  What is commonly known as the post trib view.   Kind of an up we go and right back down we come.

In Matthew 25 and Joel 3, the nations of the world are gathered together at the Valley of Johoshaphat (also known as the Kidron Valley and valley of decision).  That is the valley that runs between Jerusalem and the Mt. of Olives.   There, those of the nations are separated out by the Lord into the righteous (sheep) or the unrighteous (goats).    The unrighteous to condemnation.  The righteous go into the kingdom.

But if the righteous were caught up just as the Lord is returning, then how would there be any righteous of the nations to separate out from the unrighteous in the valley?   That is the kink or flaw in the post trib rapture view.  If the removal or rapture occurs at the same time Yeshua is coming back to rule over the earth, It leaves no righteous left on earth and of the nations to separate out as Joel 3 and Matthew 25 talks about.

There has to be a delineation.  Those of the nations that are being gathered and separated out are still living, mortal beings.  The righteous who were caught up earlier are changed to immortality according to Paul in his letters to both the Thessalonians and the Corinthians.    So at a very minimum, the catching up / removal / rapture has to occur some time before the end of the tribulation period when Yeshua returns and assumes His rule over the earth.  Post trib is totally invalidated.  That only leaves the pre, mid, or pre-wrath views in play.

That these righteous that are separated out go into the kingdom are said to have eternal life is not a conflict.   Those of us that believe and place our trust in Messiah now have eternal life, as we have passed from death to life.   John told us so in 1 John.  But at the removal or rapture, we are changed from mortal to immortal according to Paul.  The righteous that are separated out of the nations also have eternal life, just as we do now.  They also have passed from death to life just as John says we have. But they are not yet changed.  They go into the kingdom as mortals to repopulate the earth

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

Omegaman, what I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense for the rapture to take place after the great tribulation. Anybody who does something as little as taking the mark of the beast (which is needed to be able to do something as basic as feeding) is damned.  

Revelation 13:17 -  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:9-11 - And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

¹⁰ The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

¹¹ And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Why would God put all of his children alive at that time in an "unwinnable" war? The tribulation saints are those who have "a change of heart" after the rapture.

The rapture is God's way out.

God bless us all 

Kenny, the big problem is that many really don't understand ecclesiology... who, what, and why the church is and why it must be removed before the the terrible period comes.  Which stems from not having a clear understanding of who is the main focus of that period and what that means for the reason the period is allowed to happen.  There is indeed a specific, unique purpose for that period to play out the way it does.  And it has nothing to do with the unique Body of Messiah nor is it in view.  Nor is the main focus the destruction of the antichrist or the world systems.   The clear reason for that period is to drive the Hebrew people to the wall and get them to finally realize their offense of rejecting Messiah and petition for His return.  Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2 and Matthew 23:37-39.  It is why Satan has expended so much effort over the centuries to extinguish the Hebrew people, so that there are none who can fulfill the prophecy and petition for Messiah's return.

Hosea 5:15 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

For the Lord to return to His place, He had to have left it.  That was the first coming.  "in their affliction" is a reference to the "time of Jacob's Trouble" that Jeremiah wrote about.  The final terrible period.

Matthew 23:39 (NKJV) for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

Cliff

1 hour ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

The blessing of being able to "compare spiritual things with spiritual" (1Cor.2) can only come from the Holy Spirit. 

" And the disciples came, and said unto Him, why speakest thou unto them in parables?

He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."                ( Matthew 13:10-11)

"if the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one risks ending up with nonsense".   Hermeneutics 101 and basic grammar."

The above statement is an example of the pride and foolishness of man.

Still leaves things open to subjectivity based on the individual reading the scripture.  It is not pride or foolishness of man to believe that there is an objective standard than can be applied to studying scripture.  It was the lack of following that objective standard that caused the Hebrew leadership of the 1st century to miss the fact that the Messiah was among them.   And Yeshua held them accountable for not knowing.

5 hours ago, Adstar said:

If you only use one book ""the book of revelation"" as your guide to the future then yeah you cannot see a rapture in Revelation 19.. That's why you use other books of the Bible to fill in the gaps and build up a picture.. The accounts at the end of Matthew say that the returning Jesus will gather His elect on the day of His return.. If Jesus has already gathered his elect before the day of His return then the account in Matthew would not reveal Jesus having His elect gathered at his return.. It would have already been done..

And you need to follow your advice on using other books regarding the "elect" of Matthew 24.

From Matthew 24:15 onward, it is speaking to those in the land of Israel.  Those that will have to flee when they see the AOD, hoping it is not on a Shabbat, etc  

And in that context, Isaiah says that Jacob/Israel is the Lord's "elect"....

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

It is arrogance on the part of those in the body to think that they are the only "elect".   Election is not the same meaning as justification.  The Justified or Redeemed of the unique Body of Messiah are indeed "elect" because of their justification thru Messiah, but that doesn't mean they are the only elect with a unique plan and purpose for the Lord.   Even the Messiah is called the Lord's "elect", but He sure doesn't need to be redeemed or justified or gathered from the four winds of the earth.....

Isaiah 42:1 (NKJV) "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

So the Lord can indeed gather the elect that makes up the unique body of Messiah prior to the the calamities of the period, and still gather the elect of Jacob/Israel at the end of the period, in keeping with Ezekiel 20:33-38.

No conflict.

4 hours ago, Adstar said:

""the sheep of the sheep"" I have no idea what you are saying here..

I said.... who would be left to be sheep, of the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25.  

If the righteous are caught up at the same time that Yeshua is then going to return to rule on the earth, then there would be no righteous left (sheep) on the earth for the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 which is the judgement of the nations as in Joel 3 when Messiah returns.

On 1/27/2020 at 11:52 AM, RevelationWriter said:

To believe The 1st Seal Rider is The Antichrist?

Is to actually believe it is The Lamb Who unleashes him. 

 

Yep.  Who is it that cracks the seals?  It sure isn't John or the Elders.   The wording above is faulty.  Messiah doesn't "unleash" the antichrist, He allows him to be revealed.  Just as Paul wrote....

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

2 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

The only kink in equating the catching up with the same coming where Yeshua physically returns to the earth is, if the righteous are caught up at that time when Yeshua is returning to take over and rule, then who would be left to be the sheep of the nations (Matthew 25 / Joel 3)?

 Just offering a solution to your question. Although words could be applied literally in the Bible, the words that Jesus spoke were "spirit" ( John 6:63) as well. 

 

 

So that would mean  that salvation is just an allegory also.  Where does one draw the line between literal and allegory and who sets the division?   I admit that the HS uses allegories, puns, metaphors, and other rhetorical devices in scripture, but unless the text clearly suggests that, then I stick with the "if the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one risks ending up with nonsense".   Hermeneutics 101 and basic grammar.

15 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I'm sorry I thought you knew where I was coming from. Every one of the points you made I consider to be symbolic or metaphoric language describing the kingdom of God. I call it the beautiful language of the Old Testament. One will be perpetually confused, not being able to find harmony with scripture if they consistently endeavor to interpret that language literally.

I would think the reverse would be true, since viewing the text allegorically would make things highly subjective with no baseline standard.  Every time I read where Yeshua refers to scripture, He seemed to take it at face value or “literal”, so I see no reason to do otherwise.

1 hour ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

It's not hard at all to understand. The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and being caught up is the very  last  event to occur in this sin cursed earth. Once everyone ordained to eternal life is saved in this world, it simply ends, and the new heavens and the new earth begin.

Jesus didn't pay for the sins of His people only to come back to earth to reign on that same sin cursed land. He will come to destroy it:

" Behold, the [day of the Lord] cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: The sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." (Isaiah 13:9-10)

 if you compare this  language with Joel 3 and Matthew 24, the sun , moon and stars cease to exist  because the day of the Lord is going to bring swift destruction.... like the heavens passing away with a great noise and the elements melting with fervent heat ("day of the Lord", 2Peter 3:10)

Only  God's people will be left  to " shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" ( Mt.13:43)

If Yeshua is only going to rule on a perfected earth then why...

1) does the kingdom only last 1000 years and then there is another rebellion?

2) why are people penalized by having rain withheld from their land if the do not come to Jerusalem for Tabernacles?

3) why is there still death in the kingdom?

4) why do the nations seek to throw off the rule of Messiah over them?

5) why is Messiah ruling with “a rod of iron” implying He will deal swiftly and firmly with anyone who gets out of line?

6) who is it that enters into that kingdom which would cause these issues?

4 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Ha Ha. Yes let's all worship the sacred cow of Darby and Scofield... Unmitigated drivel for the pew-warmers that want a cushy load of nonsense. Come right up ladies and gentlemen, do not forget to check you mind in at the door. Let's all sing hymn number 101; Lord send the elevators to my back yard, the TV remote is bust and I'm finding it hard...  DUHHH???

Except an early removal fo the righteous was taught long before Darby.   Darby gets far too much credit for inventing something that had been taught for several centuries before he came on the scene.  But I am honored that you think folks like me who believe in an early removal of the righteous are worthy of ridicule and scorn.  Peter was right.

24 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

The second coming is described in Rev. 19:11-14, right? I see no evidence of a rapture there. Just says Jesus comes to rule. Give me scripture evidence that shows that we go up to meet him and then come right back down with him. 

The rapture happens at the 6th seal - Rev. 6:12-17 - I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and ^[a]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the ^[b]moon became like blood. ¹³ And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. ¹⁴ Then the sky ^[c]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. ¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, the great men, ^[d]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, ¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

The idea that the rapture happens here is supported by the fact that immediately after these comic disturbances and RAPTURE (emphasis mine), the servants of God (the remaining children of God in the earth) are sealed; Rev. 7:1-8.

God bless us all

I guess the first thing that must be answered is... what is the condition that actually causes the Messiah to return to earth?   Yes, scripture (both OT and NT) is quite clear that a specific condition must be met before He will return to rule.  And no, it has nothing to do with the church or the antichrist. Nor does it have anything to do with seals, bowls, vials, trumpets or anything else that people spend a lot of time trying to determine when they happen.   There is one specific thing that must happen before He will even consider returning to this earth.   And Satan has spent at least the last 2000 years trying to prevent it from happening.

Once one gets a handle of what that one condition is, then they can understand what  the purposed of the tribulation period is and who is the main focus.  Then everything else is easy including understanding not only the timing of the removal of the righteous, but the reason.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

The density of some minds is astounding. Trying to prove a point that has nothing to do with the replied to post. Post faith religion has made the 'rapture' an object of worship, conjured by the mind of man spurred by dark whispers, fashioned by the hand of man, prepared as spiritual food and force fed to the masses. Literally ripped from the truth the result is the same as consuming forbidden fruit; taken from that truth, refuted by the very bedrock from which it's taken; cuddled and nurtured by post faith religion and grown to immense, uncontrollable proportions like the rebellious progeny it is. 

There is no dispute over the reality of the gathering of the elect at the appointed time. The dispute is the wasted mind and heart destroyed by post faith religion through nonexistent church 'truth', a manufactured truth, fleshy, not of the Spirit, fear based, diluted pseudo sustenance, at which the people greedily feed. 

All of those words with little substance.   like clouds with no water.

1 hour ago, Adstar said:

The Rapture is coming .. But at the second coming of Jesus.. Those children of Jesus who are alive and remain at the second coming will be caught up into the sky to meet up with Jesus upon his return.. We shall be coming right back down to earth with Jesus to rule the world with Him..

 

If that is the case, and the righteous are caught up and immediately come right on down with Yeshua to rule with him, then who would be left to be the sheep of the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 and Joel 3?  It would seem if the righteous were gathered as you suggest, that when Yeshua lands on the earth, all that is left is goats.  But it says the judgement is after He assumes control and judges the nations.

On 1/25/2020 at 3:59 AM, Diaste said:

Some people have gone out of their way say the 'rapture' is a thing that happens apart from Jesus 'coming'. Fact is they get the event from the same scriptures that never mention a 'rapture', but do tell us about the Coming of Jesus and the gathering. 

No such thing as 'rapture'. 

There is only the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect, both occurring in the same time/space moment.

 

Oh, there is indeed a removal of the righteous or “rapture” if one wants to use that word.  The OT has many passages that support the idea the righteous, both dead and living just like Paul wrote, will be “hidden” in their “chambers” in the pavilion of the Lord.   Isaiah, Zephaniah, David, et al all wrote about it as happening before or at the start of the “time of Jacob’s Trouble, which is the calamities many call the 70th week or “tribulation” period.

The only kink in equating the catching up with the same coming where Yeshua physically returns to the earth is, if the righteous are caught up at that time when Yeshua is returning to take over and rule, then who would be left to be the sheep of the nations (Matthew 25 / Joel 3)?

When one analyses all that Hitler said and did, along with the total Nazi experiment, it was just a dress rehearsal for the future Antichrist who will warp things more than even Hitler thought to do.  The truly bizarre thing is, many in the Nazi regime thought that they were carrying out God's will and just taking Luther's nationalism and antisemitism to the ultimate level.  Along with Luther's rampant Jew hatred, he was a virulent national socialist that disagreed with individual liberty.    It is truly sad that the guy started out really getting things right regarding justification by faith alone, and then went into the sewer of demon inspired hatred in his latter years.

6 hours ago, K9Buck said:

Do you recall where you read or heard this?  Thanks.

Try taking a look at some of Hitler's speeches and read Mein Kampf and you will have your answer.   Hitler at one rally stated specifically that...

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

From a Treatise done by Daphne Olsen at Rollins College in 2012.....

Yep, Iran is a a happening place for the Gospel!   Many Persians are embracing the Gospel at great risk.  I am firmly convinced that this is a major move of the Lord as time is getting short and He desires to save many before the major calamities of the end times come upon the earth.    The Iranian situation is a great example of how the Lord will reveal Himself to those who have very little or no exposure to the traditional Gospel message.   I have talked with several missionaries to the middle east and they are enthralled at how the Lord is moving among the Islamic nations.

Yeshua equated a pearl with the righteous in Matthew 13.   A pearl is started in an oyster as a response to an irritation.  It grows by accretion over time.  When ready, it is removed from the oyster and set as an item of adornment.   So is the wonderful believers in China and other countries where persecution is the order of the day.   What a wonderful, eternal adornment these believers will be for the Lord forever!

As has been stated so aptly before in many venues.....   we have indeed entered the twilight zone.

Romans 1 is in full bloom right before our eyes. 

Agreed, Paul does not give the time of the rapture in 2 Thessalonians.  He merely says that it will happen before the man of sin is revealed.  

Agreed, the "that day" being referenced in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to the aforementioned topic of the passage, the "day of the Lord" from verse 1.   But likewise, verse 1 is also talking about the gathering or rapture as part of that.

So I guess one could say that the rapture does precede the "day of the Lord", but the trigger that starts that period is the affirming of the covenant of Daniel 9:27, which many feel is done by the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist.   And 2 Thessalonians is pretty clear that the departure or removal must occur first, then the man of sin is revealed.   Likewise in the same passage, it says that He who restrains is taken out of the way, then the Lawless One (same guy) will be revealed.  The only thing that can restrain evil is the Holy Spirit.  And the redeemed are sealed by the Holy Spirit.  So if He is taken out of the way, so are the redeemed that He is sealing.

And Isaiah 26.. front to back... is pretty clear on the timing.  Right out of the starting gate, there is a tie in with Revelation 4:1....

Isaiah 26:2 (NKJV) Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

the Hebrew and the Greek have equivalent meanings.  And the "righteous nation" is a tie to 1 Peter 2:9, which likewise is a tie back got Revelation 5:10 regarding the 24 Elders, which has its own tie to 1 Chronicles 24 where David established the 24 courses of the Priests.

further down, Isaiah ties this happening at the start of the birth pains, which ties into Jeremiah 30:6-7....

Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child is in pain and cries out in her pangs, when she draws near the time of her delivery, so have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

And there is the tie in to Matthew 24 Olivet discourse regarding no day being like it.

And later in the passage, the dead are resurrected and the righteous are told to come and enter their chambers which is a tie in to John 14 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.....

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Which also ties into Zephaniah 2:3...

Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV Strong's) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Cliff

One must also view any verse in the context of the passage it is in.  In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the departure is referenced as occurring before the man of sin is revealed.  That is supported further in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8.   Every English translation prior to the KJV, and including the Latin Vulgate, state it is a departure, not a falling away or rebellion.   Both verb (aphistemi) and noun (apostasia) require a subject to what is being departed from to determine if it is spatial physical departure or a spiritual departure.  And in verse 3, no subject is provided as to what is being "departed" from, so we have to use the general context of the passage, which is a gathering to the Lord.

For instance, a spatial departure is in view in...

Luke 2:37 (NKJV) and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart [aphistemi, verb form of apostasia] from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

And a spiritual departure is seen here....

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart [aphistemi, verb form of apostasia]  from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

The only other use of "apostasia", the noun form, in scripture is in Acts 21:21, where the specific object of what is being departed from is mentioned....

Acts 21:21 (NKJV) but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia, noun form] Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

In that context, it is both a spiritual and spatial departure or distancing from Torah.

The idea that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of a spatial "departure" and not a "spiritual departure" or "falling away" or "rebellion" is in keeping with both the grammar and context.  The context is laid out in verse 1, our gathering to the Lord, not our departing from the Lord.

And in conjunction with many prophets in scripture, it is further supported that this is a reference to the removal of the righteous prior to the end time calamities, with the specific in 2 Thessalonians 2 being  before the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist is revealed.

Where people tend to get confused in equating the coming to gather the righteous in the air to be with the Lord with the coming where the Lord returns with the righteous and sets foot on the earth and vanquishes the enemies coming against Jerusalem.    One is outside the earth, one is on the earth.   One is to gather the righteous, one is coming with the righteous.  Two unique events. 

Also, these Thessalonians had been told thru a forged letter (verse 2) that they were in the Day of the Lord, which is a common reference to the tribulation period.  Probably because of intense persecution these folks were experiencing.  Paul had to allay their fears and remind them that "that day" would not come unless the departure comes first, then the man of sin will be revealed.

On 1/21/2020 at 6:05 AM, Sonshine said:

Many so-called Christians believe the Jews crucified Jesus, but this is not true.  It was the fake Jews, those following Satan that did this.  

Revelation 3:9 King James Version (KJV)

⁹ Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

It was everyone who crucified Yeshua (Jesus), not just Jews....

Acts 4:27 (NKJV) "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together

Your application of Revelation 3:9 is faulty.  That is speaking of those who lay claim that the church has replaced Israel, i.e. Replacement Theology, Two House Theology, and the myriads of off shoots... those that say they are Jews and are not.   Indeed, within Messiah there is neither Jew nor Gentile, just as there is neither male or female, and likewise, being in Messiah does not make a gentile a Jew and being in Messiah does not take away a Jew's lineage as a Jew.   Just like even in Messiah there is still a physical earthly distinction of male and female, there is still a physical, earthly distinction of who is of Israel and who is not.  Even Paul noted that distinction and still called Jews his brethren who had yet to come to faith in Messiah (Romans 9:3).