OldCoot

Well it sounds interesting but I don't see the allegory of the passage as you do.

58 minutes ago, The Light said:

 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

The land has walls.

As the images show, these are not unwalled villages. The walls do not come down until after Christ comes and the nations are at rest.

The walls are border walls. Not village walls.  So by your analogy, because we put up a border wall along the Mexican border, there is a border wall when I go to Des Moines Iowa.  Funny, was just up there today and didn't see a wall.

keep in mind the culture and timing of that prophecy.  In ancient times, many cities had walls and gates to protect themselves from marauders.  To a person living 2700 years ago, to see Israel today would seem very much like a bunch of unwalled villages.

1 hour ago, douge said:

In response to what you said here "If these were believers, then it wouldn't make sense that the writer would spend the first 6 chapters making the case that Yeshua is greater than everything that came before.  If they were believers already, they would already know that. "

Hebrews 6:9 states they are believers. They were being edified to endure to the end to receive the promises (Hebrews 6:11-12).

No it does not.  The writer is promoting the idea that they reach the goal of the works and diligence and imitate those who thru faith and patience inherit the promises.

If one takes Hebrews as talking of believers, they have a conundrum in Hebrews 6 also.....

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

To apply it to believers means that if a believer falls away, they can never be restored.  That goes against everything in scripture.

Just like Yeshua "tasted" of the sour wine and gall (Matthew 27:34) but did not take it in, the passage is talking about being enlightened and tasting of the Holy Spirit, but not taking in the HS.  The believer has taken in the HS and is sealed.  Obviously these folks were not.  And it is impossible, if they reject the knowledge of Yeshua that the writer has been showing in the previous chapters, that there is another way of salvation.   

28 minutes ago, The Light said:

Gog Magog occurs after the 1000 years

Rev 20

⁷ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

⁸ And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I would disagree.  The Gog / Magog thing of Ezekiel 38 is localized involving a specific set of nations before Yeshua is ruling on the earth.   The rebellion of Revelation 20 when Satan is released is world wide involving all the nations at the time Yeshua is ruling on the earth.  In the Ezekiel account, specific countries / entities are listed as who is coming against the land.  In the Revelation 20 there is not a specific list of countries / entities and ties more into Psalms 2 where the Lord has placed Messiah in the land to rule and the nations are wanting to throw that band of rule off of themselves. 

On 1/5/2020 at 6:00 AM, Diaste said:

It's a great omission that pretrib refuses to acknowledge the 100,000 believers that perish every year at the hand of mankind for their belief in Jesus and their testimony of His Lordship.

Where is their 'rapture'?

They have not been taken before Rev 5. Another 11 will die for Jesus today. Why don't they get a rapture?

Be careful lest you find you fit into this verse....

2 Peter 3:3-4 (NKJV) knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

That could well speak to those who would ridicule and make fun of the idea that the righteous that make up the church of Messiah are removed at the point before the Time of Jacob's Trouble begins.   Notice that Jeremiah 30 says it is the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Chruch's trouble.    

And there are differing saints.  OT saints, church saints, tribulation saints.  Yeshua even set some of that delineation in....

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Operative, being "I will build".   That is future tense so it relegates the saints that came before Acts 2 as OT saints, not of the church.  Redeemed yes, but not the church proper which is also called the body of Messiah and also the bride of Messiah.

The parable of the pearl (Matthew 13) is a good illustration of the Church as it is today.    A pearl is from an oyster, which is non kosher.  The church is primarily of a gentile construct today, i.e. non kosher.  A pearl is created in the oyster as a response to irritation, the church grows as a response to irritation and persecution in the world.  The pearl, like the church, grows by accretion, and then then it is removed and placed as an item of adornment.  Much as the church / bride of Messiah is removed and becomes an item of adornment.   And Messiah paid the high price to purchase that pearl with His own blood.

That also ties into the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual which is a great study.  Yeshua was fond of alluding to the Hebrew marriage.    

When a potential groom would come to take a bride, they would agree to the covenant between them and a cup of wine would be shared.  Yeshua did that at the last supper.  Then the groom would pay the dowry or price for his bride.  Yeshua did that at the cross.   Then the groom would go back to his home to begin preparation of the wedding chamber.  Yeshua said He would be doing that in John 14.   The groom in not allowed to go retrieve his bride until his father approved of the wedding chamber.  So a potential groom, when asked when the marriage would be consummated, he would respond "only my father knows".   Yeshua said the same in several passages that only the Father knows the time.

When it came time, the groom went to gather his bride.  He would not enter her house, but call for her to come out to Him.  Paul stated as much in 1 Thessalonians 4.   The groom and bride would return to the wedding chamber and remain there for 7 days / one week (Daniel 9 comes to mind), consummating the marriage.   At the end of the 7 days, they would return and the wedding feast would begin.  The 7 day period would allow those who were invited to wedding feast to make ready.   

You can find a lot of info from some very good Jewish and Messianic scholars on the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual that supports this view.

I keep things simple.  Hebrews was written to Hebrews.  Just like James was written to the 12 tribes in the diaspora.  When one keeps who the target audience is in view, then usually they don't get things mixed up.

The first 6 chapters are pure apologetic, making the case that Messiah is better than Moses, Aaron, the priesthood, Angels, Temple, etc.  In Chapter 6, the writer shows that once one is enlightened to the fact that Yeshua is the Promised Messiah, there remains no other means of salvation.  If they turn away from the knowledge of Messiah, it is all she wrote, so to speak.  There is nothing else that can save.

If these were believers, then it wouldn't make sense that the writer would spend the first 6 chapters making the case that Yeshua is greater than everything that came before.  If they were believers already, they would already know that. 

I am convinced that based on the outline of the book, it was written by Paul.  He kept his name out of it because of the bad rap he had been given by the Jewish leadership in both Israel and the diaspora.  He had a burning desire to tell his Hebrew brethren of their promised Messiah, as evidenced in Romans and other books.  But to keep from generating bias in the readers, he kept his name out of the book.

And a common theme in Jewish eschatology was that the 7 days of creation equated to the 7000 year plan of God.  "these last days" would pertain to the last two days before the 7th.  The first 2 days were equated with Adam to Abraham, days of ignorance - without Torah.  The next 2 days with the time of Torah or instruction.  The third  2 days were associated with the days of the Messiah.  And we see that right out of the gate in the book of Hebrews.  The writer associates the "last days" with the days of Messiah.  We see these delineations explicitly  pronounced in Essene writings of the Qumran community also. 

Well, it really all comes down to a problem of ecclesiology as opposed to eschatology.  A clear understanding of what and who the church as established in Acts 2 and its destiny.  Once one gets a clear handle on that, usually the eschatology is easy.

And one thing that does seem clear is that the 24 Elders are at the throne room area before the scroll is handed to Yeshua and the first seal broke open.  In Revelation 5, They call themselves Kings and Priests redeemed of all the nations.  Peter is quite clear that we are a royal priesthood.... royalty is kingship (1 Peter 2:9).   And the only division of 24 was in 1 Chronicles 24, where David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions.    And since prophecy is as much pattern as it is prediction, and that the 404 verses of Revelation have over 500 references to the OT alone, it is reasonable to assert that the 24 Elders are the redeemed of the church that have been removed and are present at the time the scroll is handed to Yeshua.

Even with that, Isaiah 26 puts the context of its passage as talking about the time of the birth pains (Isaiah 26:17) which is a reference to Jeremiah 30:6-7 which is the period of Jacob's Trouble which most agree is the tribulation period, as did Yeshua in Matthew 24:21.  And Isaiah 26:19-21 says that the righteous dead are resurrected and along with the living righteous are hidden away in their chambers (see John 14) before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.   Another key tie in is Isaiah 26:2 with Revelation 4:1 where a gate / door is open so that the righteous nation may enter.  Again Peter calls us a holy / righteous nation in 1 Peter 2:9.

Anyway, for any matter to be established, there has to be the testimony of at least 2 witnesses according to the Torah.   And the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that is applied.  They took what Paul taught them (which became a major portion of the NT) and searched the scripture (OT) to see if what Paul taught them was true.  They were commended for doing so.  Thus, for any matter to be established, it must have supporting testimony from OT and NT.  Not the NT alone.   And the above paragraphs show the OT/NT connection.

15 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

oops, maybe a double post.

All the allegories and apocalypse are just that. Too much literalism gets us into knots...

Well, it is true that the scripture uses many forms of rhetorical devices, with allegory being one of them.  But unless it is clearly an allegory, like the following, it is not wise to default to an allegorical interpretation....

Ruth 2:12 (NKJV) The Lord repay your work, and a full reward be given you by the Lord God of Israel, under whose wings you have come for refuge."

The Lord is not one who has feathers.  So the "wings" is allegorical.    But in most cases, if the plain sense of the passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one ends up with nonsense.   And Revelation, for instance, is 404 verses with over 500 references to the OT alone.  What may appear to be allegorical may in fact be defined earlier in scripture.    I would contend the opposite, that not taking the scripture literal enough is what leads to much confusion.  If one defaults to allegorical methodology, it then becomes too subjective.

Oh, if you were to talk to many Jewish theologians, the "wings" of the passage above has a meaning of the tzitzit of the prayer shawl.  Those fringes or tzitzit on the prayer shawl are sometimes referenced as "wings".   And that would fit the passage from Ruth quite well.   

I am not convinced it is Russian military forces as such as it is Russia as the main supplier to the Turkish, Persian, and N.E. African forces that come against Israel.  Ezekiel 38:7 seems to imply that Gog is more about being the supplier and facilitator, or "guard" (mismar - samar), of the coalition that comes against Israel.

One thing is for certain, 1/3rd of the Russian economy is based on natural gas and petroleum export sales to western Europe.  Israel has the newly discovered Leviathan gas and oil field in the Mediterranean.  Supposedly, enough NG to last for 1500 years.  One of the biggest finds in modern history.   Israel has just completed the agreement that would supply Greece and Cyprus with NG.  The agreement with the Italians is due in May.  And once the NG starts flowing that way, it will also get into Western Europe.  Just the initial deal is projected to eat into Russia's exports of NG to Europe by about 10%, and as it spreads out, will eat more into the Russian economic base.  And Israel plans to sell at a lower cost than Russia has been bleeding Europe for.  It also means that Russia/Putin will lose quite a bit of leverage in making Europe play their game.  I have seen wars start for less reason than all this.

I highly doubt Putin and Russia are going to just sit idly by and let this all transpire without throwing a fit.  And since the coalition nations that come against Israel are already in place and being armed by Russia, it is just a matter of time before the fuse is lit.  

When I see Putin and Russia really ramping up, then I will know Ezekiel 38 is coming to life.  All the other players are in place.  And it would seem that the latest agreement by Israel to provide natural gas to Europe, starting with Greece and Cyprus with Italy agreement coming soon, at substantially reduced prices than Russia has been bleeding Europe for will be just the catalyst to get Russia moving.   Israel's Leviathan petroleum field has enough NG estimate to provide for 1500 years.  1/3 of Russia's economy has been based on NG and Petroleum sales to Europe.  Putin  is not going to sit idly by and do nothing.   Turkey is even having a bit of a fit over the Isreali agreements to supply NG.  It is getting tough to stay on top of this stuff.  Things are moving rapid fire.  

It amazes me how so many cannot see what it going on right in front of them.

15 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Yeshua said nothing at all about the abomination made by Antiochus having anything to do with His prophecy. If you want to presume this, that is  your prerogative. The road to false interpretation is filled with presumptions.

Matthew 24:15 (NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand)

uh... Right.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

it is merely changing in form from the mega-churches and large congregations to the smaller, house churches of the first century.

I think that is the direction things are headed. 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

But, the world is FOUR-dimensional: length, width, depth, and time!

And according the Nachmanides analysis of Genesis in the 13th century and after us spending billions of dollars on particle colliders and such, we know there are actually 10 dimensions.  And the Lord has to be several dimensions more than that at least. 

Even Elijah had worried thoughts about being the only one left who remained faithful to the Lord.....

1 Kings 19:15-18 (NKJV) Then the Lord said to him: "Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria. 16 Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. 17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. 18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

I never worry about how corrupt things get, even in the churches, that there is not a remnant that will always be.  And I don't really take a lot of stock in stuff that wants to chastise others over dates.   

First off, the quote about Yeshua being born on the 8th of Tishri is wrong.   I do agree it is in the fall, but during the 7 days of the feast of Tabernacles that starts on the 15th of Tishri.   The Lord had come to tabernacle among us.

He was conceived around the feast of Hanukah, the festival of lights, as Yeshua is the light of the world.   We know that from Luke's account.   Zachariah, John the Baptists dad, was serving in his priestly division (1 Chronicles 24), the 8th division of Aviyah which would put his period of first service in the year roughly June when he was told by Gabriel about Elishavah bearing JB.   We know that JB's mom, Elishavah, was in her 6th month (period of Hanukah) when Mariam was visited by Gabriel and told she would bear the Messiah.  Miriam then went to stay with Elishavah for 3 months, which would be around Passover and the birth of JB.  To this day, the Jewish people keep a place at the Passover Seder for Elijah.  Yeshua said that JB came in the spirit and power of Elijah.    Fast forward and the birth of Yeshua would be during the feast of Tabernacles, one of the feasts that every able bodied Hebrew was required to come to the vicinity of Jerusalem.   And Bethlehem is just a few miles from Jerusalem.

So the Christmas period is not all that far fetched.  Maybe not the actual day of Yeshua's birth, but very likely the day of His conception.   But to fuss over it is to lay guilt trips on the believers.  Might be more critical for Hebrew believers in Yeshua, but for those of us who are gentiles, I don't worry about the prescriptions of the Mosaic Law, as I am to follow the Noahide Law according to James and the Jerusalem  Council in Acts 15.  

5 minutes ago, The Light said:

The point that I am making is that the kings and priests that you see in Rev 5 that come out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation, is obviously the raptured church.

I will agree with that.  There are some of the newer translations of Revelation 5 that will state something like... "made THEM kings and priests" as if the Elders are singing about another group than themselves as opposed to all the early translations clear back to the Latin Vulgate that says "made US kings and priests".   It is very evident that these Elders are representative of the redeemed of Messiah that has been removed prior to the scroll seals being opened. 

46 minutes ago, The Light said:

The real problem for those that believe in a pretribulation rapture is to figure out what to do with the coming of Christ in the clouds in Rev 14. 

I don't see a problem.  Do you not think that there will be those who, by experiencing the disappearance of the righteous, will turn to Yeshua during that period?   And Yeshua makes it very clear in Ezekiel 20, Joel 3, and Matthew 25 that all of both Israel and the Nations will be gathered and separated out.   That has nothing to do with the redeemed that were removed prior to these things.    There has to be some that go into the Millennial kingdom as mortals to repopulate the earth.  But it is the Redeemed of the Body of Messiah that were removed prior to these things who will return with Him (Jude 1:14) and reign over the earth along with Him.  Revelation 2:26-27

Well, given that 2 Chronicles lays out many instances where those of the northern kingdom of "Israel" that wished to remain faithful to the Lord migrated southward and aligned with Judah, the joining back together started before the Babylonian exile.  One of those episodes of members of the northern tribes migrating south to Judah occurred over 100 years after the Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom.

After the exile, when Ezra brought his remnant back, he referred to them a Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times.   When Nehemiah brought his remnant back from Babylon, he referred to them as Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

The kingdom distinctions disappeared and by the Hasmonean period, Jew and Israel had solidified as synonymous terms.  

So by the time of Yeshua, "whole house of Israel" had returned to the meaning of Jacob/Israel.  "whole" being the operative word.  Kingdom distinctions were gone.  Tribal distinctions did still remain, as there are at least 4 tribes referred to in the NT.   Yeshua came for the spiritually lost of all Jacob/Israel.

And Hosea 5-6 states that it is both those kingdom distinctions (Judah and Ephraim), all Jacob/Israel, that are responsible for causing Yeshua to return to His place due to the corporate, national rejection of Him.  And it will be they who will have to acknowledge that rejection of Yeshua, turn to Him, and petition for His return before He will return again.  Yeshua affirmed this in Matthew 23.

And while those who come to faith in Yeshua are grafted in and feed on the root of the faith of Abraham, they do not replace or superseded physical Israel in any way.   Literal, physical, corporate, national Jacob/Isreal has a destiny to fulfill yet.   While we may not be able to identify physically who they are, the Lord must be able to or there is going to be some prophecy that will not be fulfilled, thereby the promises the Lord made will  not be kept.

The redeemed that make up  the unique ekklesia of Messiah is, corporately, the bride of Messiah.  Jacob/Israel is the wife of Yahweh that will one day be restored to that unique relationship as per Hosea 2 and other passages.   They are not one in the same group as they each have unique destinies to fulfill.

Based on what Hosea wrote, if there is no physical descendants of Jacob/Israel that can be identified, then Yeshua will never return.  He stated explicitly in Hosea 5:15 that He would return to His place because of their offense. Well, for Him to return to His place, He had to have left it.  That was His first coming.  And He states that He would not come back here until they (all Jacob per Hosea 5:14) acknowledge their offense.   So just the context alone means that what is being discussed regarding Israel has nothing to do with the church, which by definition is only made up of those who have come to faith in Yeshua.  The church did not reject Yeshua and cause Him to return to His place.  It was not even the Hebrew people in general that rejected Yeshua, as the start of the Church was exclusively Jewish.  It was the leadership of corporate, national Jacob/Israel that did.  And it will be that same identity that will have to acknowledge that offense and turn to Him before He will come back.    And Yeshua says essentially the same thing in Matthew 23.

And I am convinced it is because of this that Satan has expended a lot of effort in delegitimizing the Hebrew people (surprisingly by many in the church through history) and out right eliminating them from the earth whenever he could.  But just like in the days of the prophets, the Lord always keeps a literal, physical remnant.    And it will be from that remnant that the 144,000.... 12,000 from each of 12 tribes of Jacob... will come from as John told us in Revelation.

On 12/30/2019 at 1:35 PM, The Light said:

We know there are more than 24 kindreds, and tongues, and people, and nations. 

We also know that there were more than 24 priests in ancient Israel.  But still, David divided the priests into 24 divisions.  So I am not sure what  point you are trying to make.

1 hour ago, The Light said:

That's not a problem whatsoever other than time. The problem is accepting what the Word says and putting things where the word says they go. Once you understand that the 70th week of Daniel does not include the wrath of God, everything lines up perfectly.

Except the events of the seals could not start if Yeshua doesn’t open the scroll in Revelation 6.  So those events by default are under His direction.   And in Revelation 5 the Elders identify themselves as the redeemed kings and priests, which is what Peter said we are.  The division of priests into 24 groups was established in 1 Chronicles 24
 

Isaiah and Zephaniah state the redeemed are hidden from that time.   Isaiah states it is at the start of the birth pains, which Jeremiah calls the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, which Yeshua refers to in Matthew 24.  Isaiah also states the redeemed, both dead and living are hidden in their chambers. Zephaniah confirms the redeemed are hidden.  Yeshua in John 14 says those chambers are in the Father’s house.   And Enoch and Zechariah state that at His return He comes with His saints.

20 minutes ago, The Light said:

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It would seem that these are the same events. This is also the coming that is seen in Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The scriptures that were listed in Matt 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14 are the same events and they occur just prior to the wrath of God.

Great.  Now you have to support your assertion from the OT, as exampled by the Bereans.    

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Hi Old Coot,

Well done. I see that you believe that the Church is removed pre trib, before the seals are opened. I also think that you believe that the seals are the tribulation period. Am I correct in this?

If so what do you make of these verses?

Matt 24
²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Do you think this is the second coming when Christ sets up His kingdom on earth?

It would seem so.  

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The disagreement comes when we ask WHEN. When during the 7 years will they begin to diligently seek Him? For most of them, they are not going to seek JESUS until they SEEN Him and SEE that He is their Messiah.  However, they may be seeking GOD, but again WHEN?

How can they acknowledge their offense (of rejecting their Messiah) when then will not KNOW He is their Messiah until they see the nail prints in His hands - in my opinion.

I am in agreement with the explanation given in the Book of Enoch... that one of the purposes of the removal before or at the start of the period  is to be a witness to the people of the earth and will move many to repentance.  It is non canonical book, but it supports the idea that every now and then even a blind squirrel will find a nut.
 

Many folks will be gone.  Not going to be able to hide that fact.  People will want an explanation.  Satan has worked overtime setting up an alternative explanation that will deceive many. If it were a bogus concept, Satan wouldn’t waste a moment on it.

You assume there is no one among the Hebrew people that has some familiarity with the Gospel.  What of the 144,000 of the Hebrew tribes that obviously come to faith and are sealed after the period starts and quite a bit before They actually see Him?  An army of Apostle Pauls testifying of the truth of Yeshua and no one can stop them.

Yes, the martyrs of seal 5 are redeemed, but so were the saints of the OT.  Doesn't make either of them the specific Body of Messiah that was conceived  in Acts 2.   While these all may  constitute the "assembly" of redeemed, not all constitute that unique identity of being the Body of Messiah.    Just like many other examples of groups and identities in the spiritual realm.  There Cherebim, Seraphim, Angels (messengers), etc.  All are part of the counsel of Yahweh, but they are not all equal in position.  

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

One of the conditions of Yeshua's return is the national recognition by Israel of their rejection of Him and petitioning for His return.  This is not a simple as it seems.

Yes it is.  

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

And Yeshua affirms  this in Matthew 23....

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why would God show John a vision (in 95 AD) of a throne room with Jesus absent?

So you are going to base an entire eschatological paradigm on the absence of the mention of Yeshua specifically in the first glance by John?

Revelation 4:2-3 (NKJV) Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.

You are aware aren't you that there is no Greek words used for those red highlighted ones, right?   They are the interpreters commentary on the passage.  You are basing a eschatological theology on what an interpreter implied the text as saying.  So using your analysis of Jesus not specifically mentioned, applying the absence of mention of a person specifically, and since there is no mention of the Father specifically or even God in general in the original Greek, we can then assume that we have no clue who was sitting on the throne.  If you do a study of Satan before he fell, he was described in similar manner regarding precious stones and such.  Of course it was the Lord, but recall, the Lord is Triune.  The One Lord is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  And Isaiah said of Yeshua....

Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV) For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

So it very well could be that Yeshua (Jesus) was there, but only seen by John in His divine nature.  Only later to be seen as the Lamb.  Both of which are apt descriptions of Yeshua.  Yeshua is sure not described as "the Lamb" when He returns to take over.

Isaiah 63:1-4 (NKJV) Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
"I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 "I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.

Your analysis is extremely weak.  One cannot make a legitimate case on the perceived absence of evidence.  Just because Yeshua (Jesus) is not mentioned specifically does not mean He wasn't there.  

Yet the passage starts out as saying "after this" which grammatically would mean after what preceded it, which was the churches.   And the only reference to 24 in scripture preceding this passage is in 1 Chronicles 24 where David divides up the priests into 24 groups.    Peter (1 Peter 2:9) calls the redeemed that make up the Body of Messiah, a royal priesthood.   And these 24 elders claim they are kings and priests (royal priesthood) in Chapter 5.... in both the TR and Vulgate.  

So while you base a timeline theology on what you perceive is the lack of evidence, I have shown a more reasoned theology based on scripture evidence relying on sound hermeneutic principles.   And since that is what anyone can test, what you think you might have been told by the Lord is subjective and does not follow the prescription by Paul to test any idea.  And the firm test is scripture.  

So, I cannot accept your analysis.

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 11:31 was specifically about Antiochus Epiphanes and his abomination of desolation of the Jewish temple in 168 BC.

That verse has no direct prophetic link to Matthew 24, which is End Times, nor to Daniel 9, which was first century AD. We have gone over this before.

Well, maybe.  But Yeshua went over it long before you showed up, and did so after Antiochus did his thing, so Yeshua seemed to think it applied to the time of the end.   And it certainly doesn't apply to the Romans, as they stopped the daily sacrifices, but they did not put the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple.    They destroyed the temple getting after the gold.

Matthew 24:15 (NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

And that is mentioned in Daniel 11:31 as well as Daniel 12:11.  Both within the same context of describing details of that.  The key tie in being Daniel 12:1 showing the continuation of the subject....

Daniel 12:1 (NKJV) "At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

"At that time" refers to the time being described that preceded that statement. Basic grammar.  So the two chapters are inextricably linked as one.  

And I know it should be understood by all of us, but it seems not to be so it bears worth repeating.... when Daniel wrote his book, he did not include chapter and verse divisions.  They came much  later.  And the same descriptions of things continues into Chapter 12, which continues  on regarding the end time period, breaking it down.   Chapters 11 and 12 are unified.

And  also bears repeating, many prophecies have dual fulfillments.   Prophecy is pattern as well as fulfillment.    And the descriptions in Daniel 11-12 mirror descriptions of the son of perdition / antichrist character in the NT.  

So... we have gone over it again.  And Yeshua makes the case that it applies to the end and not just to Antiochus.  So let's see... should I believe your analysis or Yeshua's...... no brainer.  I will take Yeshua's analysis.

While not a master, I do understand most of the basic concepts to Bible prophecy.  And I know how to apply proper hermeneutics to what I am reading, which is the key to getting things in their proper order.

Zechariah, John the  Baptist's father, was of the 8th priestly division established by King David in 1 Chronicles 24.... Aviyah.   He would have been serving his 1st period in the temple around June of the year.  That is when he was told by Gabriel that he and Elishavah would have a son who would prepare the way of the Lord.

Fast forward.....  After Gabriel had told Mariam that she would bear the Messiah, and Elishavah was in her 6th month  So Miriam got the notice from Gabriel roughly the time of Hanukah, the festival of lights, Yeshua will be the light of the world.  This would be roughly December.

Elishavah remained in seclusion for 5 months until Miriam went to see her in her 6th month after Miriam had been told by Gabriel she would bear the Messiah.

Miriam stays with Elishavah for 3 months.... about the time of JB's birth.  That would have been roughly the Passover.  JB came in the spirit and power of Elijah according Yeshua.  To this very day, Hebrew households will set an extra chair and place setting for Elijah during the Passover, whom they expect will precede the Messiah.  They are right, they just happened to miss it when it happened.

Fast forward 9 months and it is likely that Yeshua was born roughly the time of feast of Tabernacles. September.  The Lord has come to tabernacle among us.  Also, it is one of the feasts that all Hebrews were required to be present in the temple area.  The Romans took advantage of that mandatory requirement to do the taxation thing at the same time.  So this is why Yosef and Miriam were in Beit lechem which is only a few miles from the temple.

The time of Yeshua's birth has always been there in the Book of Luke.  Just so many fail to realize the time of Zechariah serving in the temple because they fail to remember that David divided the priests.  And Luke tells us what division Zechariah is in.   The scripture gives us all the info we need to determine the period of year of Yeshua (Jesus) birth.

No need to speculate.