4 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Yup - sounds like severe discipline to me.  Do you see in that where someone ceases to be a child of God (their Father's life is removed from being in them)?

Well I expected as much from you.

I believe you want to corrupt Gods word against itself. You wanted something precise and a gave it to you. 

Like I stated once before.  I'll see At the judgement seat. 

19 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

There is certainly discipline for God's children (AKA - after they are born-again with His life in them) and consequences "for things done while in the body" as per 2nd Corinthians 5:10 at the Judgement Seat of Christ. (FYI: I plan to start a sperate thread on this soon)

^{gal 5: 19-21} Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

²⁰ idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, quarreling, rivalry, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

²¹ envying, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like. About these things I tell you again, as I have also told you in times past, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.   

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

please note that Jesus gives the gift of eternal life WHEN a person becomes a believer, per John 5:24.  And in 10:28 He says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And Rom 8:38 says that even nothing in the present or future shall separate us from the love of Christ.

So, from the MOMENT one believes and receives eternal life, they shall never perish.

That is grace.  We are saved by grace through faith.  Eph 2:8

Jesus also said those who Love me keep my commandments. Those who live after their flesh willfully  are not keeping His commandments . Does God look the other way? Those who sin willfully will not enter into Gods kingdom.

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Exactly.  And that's the point.  Those who don't have clearly unambiguous verses that say what they believe are aware of that.  

I'll take your comment as tacit admission that you don't.

Thats fine Believe what you want.

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Look a bit more closely and see that I didn't say "precise" but rather "unambiguous".

I HAVE unambiguous verses on eternal security.  John 5:24 with 10:28, plus others.  But these 2 verses are THE most unambiguous of all of them.  

It is impossible to misunderstand them, unless someone just wants to do that.

Do you have a problem with clarity here?

Why emphasize verses that aren't clearly unambiguous and ignore the actual unambiguous verses?

3 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I'm waiting for those verses too, that @FreeGrace alluded to . . .

I wouldn't hold your breath.

38 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Your judgments lack accuracy.  This is what I asked for (want):
 I asked for you to provide an unambiguous verse that says what you say.  I'm looking for proof.  It's called "trust but verify".

And you seem rather unwilling to provide any verse.

And they have all been shown to NOT be about what you seem to think they are.

That is why I am asking for clear verses, unambiguous in their words.

Like what Jesus SAID in John 5:24, that those who believe possess eternal life.  And in John 10:28, that those given eternal life (that would be believers) shall never perish.

Those verses are unambiguous and teach eternal security.

That means that there are NO verses that teach loss of salvation.  If there were, then the Bible would be conflicted, which is impossible.

And if they are not precise that means you are right and we are wrong?

12 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

OSAS discussions invariably end up in the weeds and get locked, and this thread is nearly there, so here's a thought . . .

If apostates were never saved, what are they apostasing from?

One has to have been a believer to be apostate.

16 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Why the snarkiness?  Of course I read my Bible every day.  I read from Acts through Rev every month, for about 2 decades now.

I never suggested or said you lied.  I asked for you to provide an unambiguous verse that says what you say.  I'm looking for proof.  It's called "trust but verify".

Games?  You are offended by my asking for proof of what you say.  If you can provide a verse that unambiguously says what you claim, I would love to see it.

Maybe a freudian slip here?  If you do know the truth, it should be easy to provide a verse that clearly says what you say.

When posters get offended when I ask for evidence or support for what they say, usually indicates that they don't have any.

Just saying.

There is not enough time to fight this out and that what you want. I really don't care what you think of me. Many scriptures have already been given.

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please provide a verse that unambiguously says that.  Your statement places your own faithfulness and obedience to believe as the ultimate Savior.  Maybe you hadn't thought about it.

Again, please provide a verse that unambiguously says that.

What verse says salvation is through confession of sin and repentance?

Thanks.

You have a bible sir and I suggest that you might read it. Do you think I would lie about it.

I believe you think this is a game you play and I'm not playing this game with you. I have been born again for over forty years and I no the truth.   

3 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Vine Abider

'Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth
Born to give them second birth
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the new-born king" '

Scripture warns of wolves in sheep's clothing. 

1st Peter 5:8 

Brother and sisters, Be Sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil as a roaring lion walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

There are many false teachers in Christianity in these last days. Don't be a victim.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Actually, not so well.  Jesus never said this.  What He did say in John 10:28 is this:  "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish".  

Which is quite DIFFERENT than what she said above.  So she doesn't understand.

We know who the "them" are in v.28 because in v.27 Jesus describes the POLICY of what His "sheep" do, which is to hear and follow.  There is nothing in either v.27 or v.28 that makes "hearing and following" criteria for being given eternal life.

So, where do we find a verse that does tell us the criteria for possessing eternal life?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This is quite unambiguous.  "whoever hears and believes...HAS (possesses) eternal life".  

iow, the MOMENT one believes, they ARE a "believer" and therefore possess eternal life.

So this verse establishes WHEN a person possesses eternal life;  WHEN they believe.

There is nothing about following as a requirement for receiving eternal life.

This is how Paul explained how to receive eternal life:

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

This verse affirms John 5:24.  Believe and receive.  

So, from the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, before ANY works are done, the believer possesses eternal life and "shall never perish" according to Jesus.

So, any notion of loss of salvation is contradictory to what Jesus taught.

One has all of the promises as long as he believes and remains in it. If any turns back from his faith and belief, will not enter into Heaven. One must confess his sin and repent! You need to repent! 

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I UNDERSTAND eternal salvation.  I UNDERSTAND that for those who follow and obey because THEY have been made a NEW creature, born of the SPIRIT  who follow the commands as Christians, will never perish.  They won't go to HELL at the first death, and they won't go into the lake of fire the 2nd death.  

I got the eternal salvation.  You got eternal salvation, FOR THOSE WHO DO IT RIGHT.

but those who 'turn away' 'DON'T receive the love of the truth', turn to the ways of the world, may  END UP WITH eternal salvation

but NOT till they do it by WORKS cause they BLEW IT as to doing it through faith.  

A

I understand at the death of the natural body those who have NOT TURNED BACK are fit for the kingdom of God and they are assured of salvation and will receive their immortality when they rise in glory and power to the judgment seat of Christ and that they will be RETURNING with Him when He returns with a rod of iron to rule the world.  

On that, WE AGREE

 

Now MOVING ON TO THE GIFT OF SALVATION, aka the NEW COVENANT brought forth so that those who 'have sin' not repented of FALL UNDER GODS GRACE, and DON'T HAVE TO GO TO HELL.  



BUT for those who have tasted and left, how far they have gone, I HAVE NO IDEA but God does, and Jesus is quite clear

there is no more sacrifice for sin.  WHAT does that mean?  If one doesn't have the blood of Christ, then one doesn't have the gift of salvation.  EVEN IF they are ETERNALLY SAVED, 

they are still GOING TO HELL TO PAY THE PENALTY OF DEATH.  


as there is no going to heaven WITH SIN.  You have to GO THROUGH CHRIST to rise up at the first death.  If you don't rise up BECAUSE you don't know the way the life the resurrection, you CAN'T FOLLOW HIM.

Those are just the hard core facts of the LAWS OF GOD.  


You like the grammar right?  GO and check it out yourself  it is he that HAS AND THAT IS A PRESENT TENSE HAS

NOT A PAST TENSE HAD

that HAS eternal life.  If I am incorrect please come and show me because I would have had to be looking at the wrong lines on those verse and would like to know if that is true.  If so and it actually says HAD or says at one time HAD rather than has
I will be the first to apologize.  BUT

If it is a PRESENT TENSE hath then I can not give to anyone what is not given to me to give, 

NO MATTER WHAT MY PRESENT BELIEFS MAY BE.  

I hope I have showed you that I UNDERSTAND THE POINTS you are trying to make, and YOU HAVE MADE, and why I disagree with them. 

 

Thank you


Why the CHURCH thinks they are  'different'  I don't know
 

9And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

10And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

11But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

12Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

We got a NEW COVENANT so those who are TRYING don't have to go to hell.  

Jesus DIDN'T get crucified so people could just DO AS THEY PLEASE.  IF you REFUSE TO ANSWER WHEN HE CALLS, OR HEAR WHEN HE SPEAKS

you are going to hell to pay a penalty.  If all you were ever taught is OSAS then you can't hear when He calls so you can't answer, so you will do evil and you will choose to do the things HE doesn't delight in and you are going to hell because you are going to hear I NEVER KNEW YOU because the CHURCH keeps putting forth OSAS is a truth LIKE THEY DON'T KNOW THERE ARE FALSE TEACHERS JUST LOOKING FOR ANY WAY TO STEAL SOULS AND THIS DOCTRINE JUST MAKES THEM LOOK LEGIT.  

How MUCH WORSE it will be for those under GRACE...who have received THE HOLY SPIRIT and STILL WON'T stay the course....


So, make your claims in the reply post but I feel we have completely covered our points of views and let it go from there.  

Thank you for your time.  
 

Well spoken Deighann 

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What isn't true is your mischaracterization of what you "think" I want.  In fact, God holds EVERY believer accountable for their lives.  Aren't you aware of 2 Cor 5:10?

 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Again, you have no idea what you are claiming.  It would be absurd to "want to erase" any Scripture.  And I am very confident that there are NO verses that "say different".  So please illuminate any Scripture that teaches different than eternal security.

That's exactly what I do.  And I keep trying to get those who believe salvation can be lost to prove it with clearly stated verses.  And NO ONE has been able to do it.

Maybe you know a verse or two that clearly SAYS that salvation can be lost.

So please educate me.

No thanks! We've been there and done that. See you at the Lords judgement seat.

38 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No, once in God's hand, you are secure.  Believers that are disobedient or unfaithful will be painfully disciplines.  Count on it.  Heb 12:11

I don't know what a "sin bath" is.  Could you explain so I can follow your comments?

Any believer can sin any time.  Do you think otherwise?  If you do, where does the Bible say believers don't sin.  I'll prove that idea wrong.

What you want though is to say we never have to account to God for sin and that is not true. You want to erase all scripture that says different and that we need to confess our sins so that the Lord can apply His grace. This is dangerous teaching and it is false teaching otherwise the other scripture would not even be there. We need to see the whole of scripture and its teachings.

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The Bible doesn't describe the posture of God's "hand" but the first part of 10:28 is clear enough.  Those given eternal life by Jesus shall never perish.  So it doesn't matter what posture God's "hand" is in.

One who has believed IS IS IS very secure.  IF IF IF you believe what Jesus said.

Yes while one chooses to stay in His hand,  right? You do have a choice, right? You  can choose to take a little sin bath any time Right? Stay right there and bask away.    

Truth ALWAYS has an answer to false teaching.  ALWAYS.  And I never hesitate to combat false teaching by giving clearly worded verses that refute the false teaching.

Since you won't directly address either verse (Jn 5:24 or 10:28), I can only conclude one thing.

True no one couldn't take from His hand, but are you in His open hand or is He keeping you in a closed fist?

On 8/16/2023 at 8:53 PM, Vine Abider said:

Bothers & Sisters in Christ - As we’ve been conversing a bit about the “once saved – always saved” (OSAS) teaching in various recent threads (and actually it’s a significant ongoing discussion on the Worthy forum), I’ve been thinking and considering this matter.  Various people have brought up good points, both pros and cons to OSAS. This has me thinking about how salvation looks from God’s side, in light of the matter of life.  (FYI: I mentioned this in a few of the OSAS threads, but I wanted to more fully elaborate, with verses, in this new thread. And sorry for the longer post, but it seems necessary and hopefully is an easy read and a blessing.)

God is all about life! He is the sole Creator of life.  He made the earth to team with an abundance of life.  And Jesus said in John 10:10, “I am come that they might have life and have it to the full” and in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth and the life” and He also said, and “I am the resurrection and the life.”  His purpose was to defeat death and bring life back to man. So let’s look at the matter of our salvation from this  perspective – the perspective of life.   (presented in three sections + summary/concluding thought)

A) We should all agree on the finality and efficacy of that what Christ did on the cross.  Right before He gave up His life He loudly proclaimed, “It is finished!”  Those words were not spoken lightly and are very far reaching indeed!  So what was finished and what happened as a result of Christ’s death and resurrection? 

Here are a couple verses regarding what happened at that wonderful event (i.e., beyond paying the ultimate penalty for our sin):

“The Last Adam (Christ) was made a life-giving Spirit.”  1 Cor 15:45b

“Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone.  But if it dies, it brings forth much fruit.” John 12:24  (Jesus speaking of His crucifixion and what would be produced)

B) Jesus spoke several times about the importance of humans being “born-again.”  When something is born a new life occurs.  He told us, “Unless one is born-again, they cannot see the kingdom of God.”  (John 3:3) Therefore, as Christians we know that unless someone receives Christ into them, they cannot be born-again. Therefore, they cannot receive God's eternal life and see the kingdom.

Here are some verses related to the matter of being born-again and what that means:

“Born-again, not of corruptible seed . . .” 1 Peter 1:23

“Whoever is in Christ is a new creation.  Old things have passed away – behold the new has come!” 2 Cor 5:17

“I give them eternal life, they shall never perish and no one snatches them out of My hand.” John 10:28

“That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6

“I will put My Spirit within you.”  Ezekiel 36:27

“He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.” 1 Cor 5:17

“I am in my Father, and you are in Me and I am in you.” John 14:20

"Whoever is born of God . . . His seed (‘sperma’ in Greek) remains in Him” 1 John 3:9

 “Conformed to the image of the Son of God . . . the Firstborn” Rom 8:29

“Christ in you, the hope of glory.”  Col 1:27

C)  Another significant thing Jesus did was to make the Father’s name known to His disciples. In the Old Testament the name of Father was used for God very rarely.  In the New Testament the name of Father is used abundantly, and Jesus was the initiator of speaking of God as Father, and this is in relationship to both Himself and His disciples.

Here are just a few verses related to God being our Father and His relationship with us:

“[Father] I have made Your name known to them.” John 17:6

“I am ascending to be with My Father and your Father.” John 20:17

“Our Father, which is in heaven . . .”  Matt 6:9

“Bringing many sons to glory.”  Heb 2:10

“Now we are children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be . . . we shall be like Him.” 1 John 3:2

“It is of God that you are in Christ Jesus.” (not our doing) 1 Cor 1:30

Summary of A, B & C: Putting the verses in these three sections together, we get a picture of a loving Father who desires to have many children. Christ said He came that we might have life, and in order to do this, Christ first had to pay the ultimate price for our sin.  And then, in resurrection He became a life-giving Spirit that could be received into those who accepted Him.  As per 1^st Corinthians 6:17, His Spirit became joined to our spirit and we were born-again of incorruptible seed (sperma).  Now we have His very life! The old was done away with (old self & life was crucified in Christ) and now we are a new creation in Him - “Behold I make all things new!”  Just like in the rest of God's nature, what is born of God the Father, cannot be unborn. 

My concluding thought is that the title of father is given to someone who has offspring, or in other words, gives life and existence to another.  As humans, we father children who possess our biological life and many of our attributes – they are born and become our children.  We then love and care for them so that they may grow in life effectively.  At some point our children may become very rebellious and even seek to disown us as being their father or disavow they even possess our life as children.  However, we know it’s probably a phase they are going through, and we continue to look out for them and care for them.  This care may mean they need some discipline for their good, so they may get back on track toward growing and becoming mature, productive and loving adults themselves.  No matter how rebellious they become, they are always still our children with our life in them, and we would never think of killing them if they misbehave, but rather correct them to grow properly.  If this is the case with us, imperfect/fallen humans as we are – how much more is our infinite, loving heavenly Father – the giver of life!?

“I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

“Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!”

Hebrews 13:5 & 2 Corinthians 9:15

This is to long winded. Could you be more concise? However, God has given us chioce. He does not force anyone. God said to Israel " in my hands is life and death, therefore CHOOSE LIFE". 

Jesus is as a lifeboat. You need to grab His hand to get in. 

7 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

God will not let his children perish. He will bring you to your senses if you are born again

I would say then let the enlightened of the Lord depart from those who error.

In the part of your post where you are asking me about those people who deny their faith.  "Are they still saved?" We are saved because we believed...but not every one who believes will continue to believe all their lives. Some for deferent reasons they will stop believing and embrace some other religion like Islam or Buddhist or even become atheist. 

If that happen out of their own free will and it was their own univocal decision then these people are not believers in Jesus Christ anymore. They do not have the faith of Jesus in their heart, and for that reason they cannot be under the blood of Jesus Christ anymore...they are not saved anymore...they were saved as long as they believed...but now they do not believe, they are not saved anymore. 

Thank you for your answer Friend and we can then contend that those who do not repent of known sin are also denying their faith and will lose their salvation.  

14 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Yes, he repented and was received back.  And after Christ's resurrection He became born-again of the Spirit, to become a child of God - he was in Christ & Christ was in Peter.  So then Peter had God's eternal life.  

What is born cannot be unborn, and nowhere in nature does this happen.  It certainly doesn't happen with believers who are joined to the Lord's Spirit in them, as per 1 Cor 6:17.

Of course, His children still do dumb things that need to be repented of, but God doesn't kill His children because of that, He disciplines us.

We are talking about born again of the spirit not the flesh. You are talking like Nicodemus. Could you give an answer to my prior question about the great falling away? 

15 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

What the scripture says about those things is important.

To call a believer to repentance about something...Definitely you are not telling him that he is not saved anymore and he needs to repent to be saved again...when we sin we are not lost unsaved till the time when we repent then we are saved again...

This is the way of the old Sinai Covenant. 

As believers we are asked to repent....and we are his before we repent.  

Let me ask you something. The great falling away in 2nd Thes: 3-4 comes to me. This takes place before the man of sin is revealed. Tell me if these people who deny there faith, are they still saved? It says in Revelation that we need to be overcomers. It says "and they overcame him (satan)by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they loved not their life to the death" Are those who fall away still saved?

4 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Do you see in scripture that you are in Christ and is He in you?

Did Peter deny Jesus three times and repent in teers?  Was Jesus in him and he in Jesus. 

4 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This parable Jesus said before the Cross and before the Gospel was preached...but still we can give it a place in the Gospel because we still have people who abuse their position of trust.

Jesus after exposing and demoting someone and put him together with the hypocrites can not tell him that "I forbidden you to believe in me and call upon my name for repentance and forgiveness...and for help to rehabilitation. 

Jesus definitely will never do that...in the Old Covenant where not all sins were forgiven...yes that time they did not accept the repentance and offer forgiveness to the violator of the Sabath...what was left for them it was the punishment described in their Law...

 

Im not talking to the repentant but the unrepentant. One has to come out of the dark to find grace. You say one can retain his salvation without repentance. We may as well go back to wild west. Twist it any way you want.