JoeCanada

No sir. Satan is still accusing us day and night. Satan is not kicked out of heaven until rev 12. Read it. Especially 12:12....

Of course we are made free from sin..... but, not the ongoing sin that we were use to before we came to the cross. God has made us a new man.... the old man is null and void, but, he still rears his ugly head. John tells us in 1 John 2: " My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you might not sin. And, if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins...." Jesus is our mediator. Satan is there accusing us day and night...Rev 12:10 Do you think that he is there telling God how good and loving and sinless we are? No. He is there saying "Look at Joe...he is a great sinner, he is worthless, how can you possibly love him..... yada yada yada.

Absolutely! Being made free from sin by the power of God in Jesus Christ is the True gospel message. Well, I don't know anything about you; how old you are or for how long you've been a Christian. But from the moment that you were 'born again'..... I'm certain that you've committed sins since then ....NO? Maybe read what Paul says in Rom 7:14>>>>>

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that a person who is born of God's Holy Spirit, has been forgiven of their sins thru the atonement of Christ.... can now live a completely sin free life?

If that be truly the case as 1 John 3:8 says, then we are ALL of the devil, for we ALL sin. ALL Christians SIN..... I know of no Christians that do not SIN. We are not made perfect and sinless the moment we come to Christ. Paul tells us: Rom 7..... "but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin" Lam 3:22-24.......“The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness" Lamentations 3:22–24 reminds us that, in Christ, the Lord will be faithful to be there every morning with enough new mercy to get us through today's troubles, sin, and pain.

Do you have any proof that the early church fathers taught a pretrib rapture? Let's say in the first 300 or 400 years after the apostles? I'm interested.

Saying it is a "season" (fall 2025) is as good as setting a date. And to say "fall 2025 at the latest" .....well, Rev Man, like I said, we will all be here to hear you when you say "hey, I was just off a bit...it will be no later than spring 2026..... then, oh summer 2026 at the very latest. Another Harold Camping. My whole thing???? I believe its you who has said multiple times that you know more than anyone alive when it comes to eschatology. And THAT FOLKS is it in a nutshell. Its pretrib or nothing according to you. You are locked in, wrapped in chains, bolted inside a steel chamber where no-one can get at you to show you scriptures that contradict your belief. You won't listen to any of it. And why should I, or we, believe anything you say about the end times? You are TOTAL pretrib. You are out of here no later than fall 2025. So anything after the first couple of chapters in Revelation make no difference to you. You will be gone, according to your belief. You go at great lengths to explain eschatology to us, who, as you say..."have no clue". You twist things like the 1260, 1290 and 1335 days so that they are backwards. Everything is in "code"......... or "prose"........."flashbacks".....metaphors" "10 kings don't actually mean 10 kings" "The seals don't actually do anything....The Seals are METAPHORIC in nature" And on and on you go. You talk to us like we are a bunch of imbiciles. -------------------------------------------------------------- But Lord, why didn't you tell us, and he will be like, I did, via my Servant Rev Man. --------------------------------------------------------------- Good grief..........

I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse. Paul commends them on their love for each other in the midst of persecutions and afflictions (tribulation) which they are enduring. He then tells them that it is only just for God to repay with affliction to them who are afflicting the church..... and to give relief (rapture) to them who are afflicted .... WHEN?..... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire. So.... they are in tribulation and then Jesus will come and rescue them and at the same time pour out His wrath on the ungodly. This is the Day of the Lord. Here....read it again: 2 Thes 1:4-8............... "therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus." The Day of the Lord comes AFTER the great persecution, NOT BEFORE IT!

And there it is! So, Rev Man..... I will see you (figuratively speaking) at Christmas time here on the forum. Why? Because you have now set a date for the "pretrib rapture" to happen in the fall of 2025....AT THE LATEST. I can tell you for certainty that it's not going to happen. Why? Because there is NO scriptural evidence for a pretrib rapture. NONE....NADA....ZILCH The apostles never believed it. The apostles never taught it. The first century churches never believed it. The first century churches never taught it. The early church father never believed it nor taught it. None of them! NONE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NADA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ZILCH

Indeed! Most people won't have a clue. Their minds have been 'blinded by the enemy'. And most people includes many in the churches. I hear it taught that Noah was in the ark for seven days before God unleashed the flood waters. But a very careful reading of Gen 7 paints a different picture. Jesus compares the days of Noah with the days of Lot...... "Likewise ALSO as it was in the days of Lot..... the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone.....even thus shall it be when the Son of Man is revealed" 'Likewise.... 'ALSO' .... 'the SAME DAY'..... One incident did not happen a week earlier, but on the SAME DAY that Noah and clan were sealed in the Ark.................... and Lot and clan went out of Sodom. Jesus is comparing the suddeness of the judgments. This is the deceptive teaching that has crept into the churches. "We will be taken out a week (7 years) before all this trouble starts" Jesus, among others, tells us that " When the Son of Man comes"...."even thus shall it be when the Son of Man is revealed"...... that is when fire and brimstone will rain from heaven, for the Lord comes with fire, hence the saying 'He comes as a thief in the night'! Those of us who are watching, who have lifted our heads and looking towards the heavens for His sign, we won't be surprised. The earthdwellers, on the other hand, will be caught unawares of the judgment that comes upon them.

Yes, the test IS right now, right here and now, in our tribulations and persecutions and afflictions, which many saints have endured since the crucifixion, and are still enduring trials and persecutions and afflictions today. Do you think that in the great tribulation men will devise new ways to kill and torture people? New ways that are more brutal than what the Nazi's did to Jews and Christians during the holocaust? New and better ways that Nero used, or Islam, or China or?????? The great tribulation is great not in its intensity, but in it being widespread. "Great" is "megas" and means widespread, (on a global scale.) While there are some 50 countries in the world today that are persecuting Christians and Jews, the great tribulation will be ALL countries. All countries will participate in cleansing the world of Christians and Jews. That's why it will be the Great Tribulation!

I think that the difference between ascension and rapture is this: If we look at Acts 1 where Jesus 'ascended' into heaven, it was by His will. He wasn't taken or snatched up, which the 'alive in Christ" at the second coming will be by an angel who 'puts in his sickle and reaps' (rev 14) You conclude: "So the Rapture is not a Resurrection (already taken place in Christ Jesus), But it is an ascension." I agree that the rapture is not a resurrection. But I disagree that the rapture is an ascension. Jesus was the only One who ascended and that was by His own will. Our rapture will be a sudden 'snatching away or 'reaping' or 'seize by force'. (1 Thes 4:17)

What does Paul tell the church of the Thessalonians: "We ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.... This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. The Thessalonian church was in tribulation. Heavy tribulation. Yup, getting beat up black and blue. Afflictions...."thlipsis".... tribulation! Are they not the bride of Christ? I doubt it!

Can there be a rapture without a resurrection? Not according to Jesus. Paul tells us in 1 Thes 15: "For this we say to you "by the Word of the Lord"..... (Paul is telling us that this is from the Lord Himself)... that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord , will NOT precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" Then... "We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" When we look at the whole council of God and put all the scriptures together, then we get a complete picture. Not every verse has all the details in it. Rev 14 speaks of the harvest of the earth. Matt 13 tells us that the harvest is the end of the age. The harvest of the earth in Rev 14 is a complete harvest.... those in the grave and those still alive are gathered. Then those remaining, the tares, are gathered and put into the winepress of the Wrath of God. So.... it's a complete harvest.

So...... are you saying that ONLY pure and spotless virgins, aka the bride, will be taken to the wedding? Did God not send the Bridegroom to the earth to let the bride see Him? And what did they do? They beat Him black and blue, and tortured Him so that He was beyond recognition as a human, they pulverized His flesh and then hung Him on a cross for all to see! Is a slave above His master? The very first of the virgins were ALL tortured and killed in like manner as their savior. But you are suggesting that somehow WE ARE DIFFERENT? We are the purest and holiest of the virgins? "God would never allow His bride to be beat up black and blue before the wedding"..... is a blasphemous statement! It's calling God a wife abuser; a child abuser. May it never be so!

Matthew 13:30: Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn. Notice what it says: "Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles TO BE BURNED"........ "TO BE" is not an immediate action but a later one. If we look at Matt 13: where the disciples came to Jesus and asked Him to explain the parable of the wheat and tares, Jesus's explanation does not show timing: Matt 13:39 .......... "and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels..." Then: Mat 13:40.......Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. Mat 13:41......The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, Mat 13:42......and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:43......Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Rev 14 which you quoted above, I think shows the order of events: Jesus is sitting on a white cloud when an angel comes out from the temple and says to Jesus: “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” 16 So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. This is the harvest of all the righteous. This happens at the end of the tribulation just before God pours out His Wrath on all the ungodly and unrighteous. Then: "Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia. This is the gathering of all the unrighteous. Do you see the order here?.... The angel FIRST gathers the "ripe crop"...... then the second angel gathers the "clusters of grapes".... and we know that clusters of grapes go into a winepress, the "winepress of God's Wrath! I agree. And.... they are separated at the same point in time, not 7 years apart as many would like to believe.

Hi Roy, Yes, good points. So neither Altar was actually in the Holy of Holies. The Altar of Incense being immediately in front of the curtain to the Holy of Holies.... and the Altar of Burnt Offerings being outside of the Holy Place. The only Altar referenced in Rev 6:9-11 would be the Altar of Sacrifice (or Burnt Offerings) as the saints that were under it were said to be slain for their testimony and for the Word of God. So in reality they were sacrificed. There is no mention of incense or prayers so we could probably rule out the Altar of Incense.

I believe that those in front of the Throne are in God's presence in the Holy of Holies, and those under the Altar are not in the Holy of Holies, because the Altar was for sacrifices, and that Altar was always outside the Holy of Holies. These martyrs loved not their lives unto death, and so they sacrificed themselves to God.

I don't think so. Scripture says this ...... Ephesians 4:5....... "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. Will he let people choose whom they wish to worship?

Can you expand on this please. If Jesus had 'teachings... plural' that the wicked are taken out first, I would like to see them.....and also the 'many others' teachings Thanks alot

Which church are you referring to? John wrote letters to SEVEN different churches in Asia. There was not "ONE" church, but "SEVEN" We are ALL tribulation saints....... and the "church" is still here! Rev 1:9......"I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." 2Th 1:4......"therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure." Jhn 16:33......“These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." Rom 2:9....."There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek" Rom 5:3......."And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance" 1Th 1:6......"You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit"

It all depends on the context. In 1 Thes 4:13, Paul begins by saying to the Thessalonians: "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus." In this context, "those who are asleep" are the ones who have died. Paul reaffirms this when he tells them that God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. (those who have died in the faith) We can also see this in Matthew 27:52: "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised".... these saints had died and were resurrected. But, in Matthew 28:13: “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep".... So it's the same word, but context tells us the meaning. In this case, it was actual sleeping. Yes.... I haven't thought about it but you are correct. Jesus commands the church to WAKE UP in Revelation 3: Rev 3:2.... ‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. Rev 3:3....‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. Koodos!

I certainly do believe that Islam will dominate in the last days. It will be THE tool of the antichrist. I know of no other religion that still uses a sword for execution. During a declared global jihad by the antichrist there are some 2 billion Muslims worldwide who could potentially wage war against Jews and Christians. There will be a great slaughter!

The Anti-Christ will wipe out Islam and ALL False Religion WOW! Let's see..... FALSE RELIGIONS: Islam.... 2 billion Secular/Atheist/Agnostic... 1.2 billion Hinduism.... 1.2 billion Buddism.... 500 million Chinese Traditional Religion..... 400 million Ethnic Religions.... 300 million African Traditional Religion.... 100 million All others including.... Sikhism, Spiritism, Judaism, Shinto, Unitarian Universalism, Cao Dai.....etc..... approx 100 million And let's not forget the BIGGEST FALSE RELIGION of all, according to the antichrist...... CHRISTIANITY....... over 2 billion. Well that pretty much takes care of the global population doesn't it?????

Well, that is true. The word "church" is not found after chapter 4. It is also not found in the Gospel of John. If we apply that same argument to the gospel of John, we have to conclude that the gospel of John isn’t for the church because the word church isn’t even mentioned in all of its chapters. Can that be true? While the word "church" is not found, what do you say about the "saints" that are mentioned 13 times.... or "bondservants" mentioned 8 times.... or brethren that are mentioned 4 times? Are the "church members" never called saints, or bondservants, or brethren in the New Testament?......... you know they are. The overwhelming evidence is that the church is indeed present during the 70th week of Daniel regardless of whether the word is used or not. What one believes must be squarely built on what the Bible clearly says, not on what we might like it to say for whatever reason.