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JoeCanada

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  1. JoeCanada

    PRE, MID or POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE?

    Hi livingbyfaith..... There are 3 primary scriptures that tell us when the “Rapture” occurs. There are many other scriptures that tell us “about” the Rapture, but not about its timing. So, if we can figure out the timing of the rapture, according to scripture, then the pre, mid, post will all fall into place, or be eliminated. 1) The Wrath of God is the key , “For God hath not appointed us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”….1 Thes 5:9 The Wrath of God does not begin until God’s Word says it begins. “ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand”…Rev 6:17 This verse states that on a specific “great day”, the wrath of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will begin. Let’s pick it up in Rev 6:12-17: 12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the [a]commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the [b]presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Look at what it doesn’t say…..It doesn’t say that their wrath had already commenced. It does say that the GREAT DAY OF THEIR WRATH HAS COME Also, they were hiding in the caves and amongst the rocks and asking them to “Fall on us and Hide us” from the Face of Him who sits on the throne. No one asks to be hidden under rocks from something that started years earlier. This is a nonsense statement that no one would make. People only ask to be hidden from what they perceive to be a present danger and at its inception. The Wrath of God begins AFTER Jesus opens the sixth seal. This is indisputable based on Scripture! 2) EYE WITNESSES:…… 1) The inhabitants of the earth in Rev 6:17 testify as to the timing of the initiation of the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord’s Wrath, as shown above. 2) The martyrs under the altar……Rev 6:10 “ They cried out with a loud voice saying “ How long O Lord holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth” This right here precludes all five of the first seals from being God’s Wrath. 3) Joel 2:31…” The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes” Matt 24:29…..” But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 4) Matt 24:31….. “ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other” Is this the SECOND COMING or the RAPTURE? Many pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib rapture theorists consider Matt 24:31 as the same event as Rev 19:11-16. But is it? Look at the graph…. Area of Comparison 1 Thess. 4-5 Matt. 24 Rev.19 Called a "coming" Yes 4:15 Yes 24:27,37,39 No Refers to a resurrection Yes 4:16 Yes 24:31 No Likened to birth pains Yes 5:3 Yes 24:8 No Sinners are referred to as "drunk" Yes 5:7 Yes 24:49 No Presence of angels Yes 4:16 Yes 24:31 No Trumpet of God Yes 4:16 Yes 24:31 No Jesus is specified as being in the clouds Yes 4:17 Yes 24:30 No Jesus gathers the elect together Yes 4:17 Yes 24:31, Mark 13:27 No Direction of the gathering of righteous is up Yes 4:17 Yes 24:31, Mark 13:27 No 19:14 Elect descend with Jesus Timing unknown Yes 5:1 Yes 24:36 No Comes as a thief Yes 5:2,4 Yes 24:43 No Takes unrepentant by surprise Yes 5:2 Yes 24:36-39 No Rev 16:14 Satan/Antichrist aren't surprised Followed by fiery judgment Yes Ref to Rev 8:7 No No fire falls at Armageddon Trumpet and Bowl Judgments Yes Trumpet and Bowls are not mentioned No Must occur after the Trumpets and 6 of the Bowls Jesus' Robes Yes Consistent with Jesus' robes being stained in Rev 19:15 No Jesus' robes were stained prior to Rev 19:13, 15 Looking at the chart, we see that the first 11 comparisons are consistent between 1Thes and Matt 24, and the final 6 comparisons absolutely prohibit Matt 24 and Rev 19 from being the same events. Mathew 24:29-31 HAS to be referring to either the Rapture or the Second Coming; there are no other choices! Scripture is clear: There is only ONE Second Coming! Jesus’ return is indicated by four different terms: 1) Erchomai, which is “come” It is a generic word and is found 637 times in the New Testament, 2) Apokalupto, which means “uncovering or revealing”. Jesus can only be revealed to the world ONE TIME. This is a singular event. 3).Epiphaneia, which means “appearing” or more specifically the “appearing of a god” 4) Parousia, is a semi-technical term, which in the Middle East of Jesus’ day meant “visit of a royal dignitary or official” Rev 19:11-16 isn’t called any of these terms. Jesus had already “come” prior to that event. Both 1Thes and Matt 24 ARE termed the “coming” or the “parousia” or “royal visit” “We who are alive and remain until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep”…..1Thes 4:15 “ For just as lightening comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be”…….Matt 24:27 PAROUSIA is used in both passages. The term is singular and is preceded by the definite article “THE”. They are both “THE” parousia or coming of Jesus; the one and only coming. 3) IMMINENCE……Can the Rapture occur at any time? “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”……Matt 24:19-20 In this prophetic passage, Jesus is promising Christians that He will be with them until the end of the age. “Tell us, when will these thing occur and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?.....Matt 24:3 Jesus responds with two references: “you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end”…Matt 24:7 “ This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come”…..Matt 24:8 Jesus is very clear. He will be with us, the church, until the end. This clearly shows that Christians will be present in the Tribulation. “ The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age”….Matt 13:39-40 Jesus is clear that at the end of the age, the unrepentant will be burned with fire. This event occurs on the Day of the Lord with fire falling at the first trumpet judgment. Jesus promises to be with His Church until that time. Therefore His Church is present on the earth until the trumpet judgments begin. So what about…..” but of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”….Matt 24:36 The end of the Tribulation period is believed by most to occur a set number of days (1260) after the Abomination of Desolation. After that horrible event, the end of the Tribulation will be a known day and thus cannot qualify for the Rapture which must be an unknown day. But Jesus tells us that for the sake of Christians, and only Christians, those days will be cut short, so they won’t be present the entire 1260 days: “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short”…..Matt 24:22 Most Christians mistranslate the verse in Matt 24:36 as saying…”no one knows the day or the hour” But the Bible actually states…”of that day” and hour no one knows” Linguistically, it must refer back to the last day that Jesus mentioned. It cannot refer to a pretribulation rapture under any circumstance. It must refer back to Matt 24:31, the last day that Jesus mentioned: “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other”…..Matt 24:30-31 Also….”Therefore, be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming”….Matt 24:42 “The Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will”….Matt 24:44 So, Matt 24:30-31 is not the physical Second Coming as pretrib believes, and it has nothing to do with the end of the Tribulation. IT IS THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE, AND THAT IS WHY IT WILL OCCUR ON AN UNKNOWN DAY! Excerpts from the book...."Simplifying the Rapture" by Nelson Walters
  2. Gunned Down For Believing In Christ: The Mainstream Media Is Silent As The Persecution Of Christians Escalates The global persecution of Christians continues to escalate dramatically, and yet the mainstream media in the United States is virtually silent about it. In this article, I am going to quote a lot of sources, but they are all either overseas news outlets or Christian websites in the United States. To a certain extent, I think that the mainstream media is extremely hesitant to report about the global persecution of Christians because it may cause the general public to feel sympathetic, and that would definitely be counterproductive to what they are trying to accomplish. Ultimately, the elite are trying to demonize Christians, conservatives, patriots and anyone else that would attempt to oppose their radical agenda for America. So they are banning us from their Internet platforms, they are mocking us on their news and entertainment programs, and they certainly don’t want to highlight the fact that the persecution of Christians is escalating rapidly around the globe. ( To read the rest of the article, click on the link below ) http://endoftheamericandream.com//archives/gunned-down-for-believing-in-christ-the-mainstream-media-is-silent-as-the-persecution-of-christians-escalates
  3. Hi everyone, I have a question. In Rev 12:17 and Rev 14:12, it says "they which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus" If we are "under grace and not law", then who is it who keeps the commandments of God? And which commandments of God is scripture referring to? Are there two groups of followers here, the Jews who keep the commandments of God and the Christians who have the testimony of Jesus? It appears that in Rev 12:17, that the dragon goes after the woman's offspring, the Christians. Does anyone have an answer?....or some insight?
  4. Hi Abdicate, Not sure what you mean by...."Why can't it mean both?" If it's about "apostacy" in 2 Thes 2:3, it can't be both a "falling away from the truth" and a "rapture". That would make no sense. I do see a rapture of the righteous along with a resurrection of the dead in Christ happening after the great trib, between the 6th and 7th seal, just before the Lord's Wrath begins against all the ungodly of this world. I agree that there is a great departure from the faith happening right now. These "feel good mega-church preachers" are doing great harm to the body of Christ. And then there's the Pope, trying to meld the RCC with Islam and the Protestant Churches. "UNITY" he claims..... blah humbug! I'm shocked at what I'm seeing happening today. And it's only going to get worse.
  5. Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;....2 Thes 2:3 Second Thessalonians chapter two has been the nemesis for pretribulationism. Or what I refer to as the 800-pound gorilla in the Bible of the pretribulationist. This biblical passage has convinced more ex-pretribulationists that their pretrib theology is wrong than any other Bible passage. The reason for this is straightforward: The fundamental premise of pretribulationism is that there cannot be any prophesied events that will take place before the rapture, and consequently they believe in the novel idea of what has come to be called the “any moment” rapture (a.k.a. imminence). Paul, however, gives an unambiguous statement in v. 3 that has lead many to reject imminence and thereby understand that there will be in fact at least a couple of key monumental events that will happen before the rapture. Several pretrib teachers have attempted to get around the plain meaning of this Biblical text, but there has been one in particular that is indeed the most strained. A few years back at a Bible prophecy Conference I gave a series of lectures on Thessalonians. One of them was focused particularly on the pretrib argument that the Greek word behind “rebellion” (apostasia, ἀποστασία) can carry the meaning of a “physical and spatial departure,” thereby suggesting that Paul has the rapture in mind when he uses this word in this verse. Some pretribulationists, such as Thomas Ice, argue that the word “rebellion” (apostasia, ἀποστασία) means “physical departure”and not a “religious departure,” thus denoting the rapture. This view was first introduced in 1895 by J. S. Mabie and popularized by E. Schuyler English in 1949 In their first appeal they try to support this argument by noting earlier versions Pretrib proponents have pointed out that early English Bibles such as Tyndale, Coverdale, and Geneva have rendered rebellion in v. 3 as “departing.” The implication of the English word “depart” is suppose to suggest a “physical departing” and thus the concept of the rapture was in the mind of these English translators. But this is not correct for a couple of reasons: Appealing to sixteenth-century English versions to understand the meaning of a Greek word is naïve at best and only pushes the question back a step further: What did the sixteenth-century English word “departing” mean? Since the English word can be spatial or non-spatial in meaning. These same early English versions use “departing” at Hebrews 3:12. For example the KJV reads, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” Here “departing” is clearly non-spatial. Further, there is no evidence that these translators on this verse understood apostasia as a “spatial departure.” A second appeal is to lexical evidence. But which side is the lexical evidence on? Here is where the rubber meets the road. Is there any lexical evidence that would prove that apostasia can carry the meaning of “physical departing,” let alone in 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Word studies always begin with proximity and works its way outward: Author -> NT -> Septuagint -> Koine (Pseudepigrapha Josephus, Philo) -> Classical Greek -> Patristic New Testament: The term is used only one other time in the New Testament, which means a religious departure: Septuagint: Four Times: Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 1 Maccabees 2:15; Jeremiah 2:19. Every time it means apostasy or rebellion in a religious or political sense—never used as a spatial or physical sense. Koine Greek Literature: In Moulton and Milligan’s, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-Literary Sources, it is demonstrated that this term is only used in the political or religious defection sense—again, never used in a spatial departure sense (pp. 68–9). Further, even pretribulationist scholar Paul Feinberg admits, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” He is correct. Classical Greek: The classical Greek Liddell and Scott lexicon lists the primary meaning of apostasia as “defection, revolt”; and “departure, disappearance” as a secondary meaning. The only example of this secondary meaning of spatial departure is found five centuries later after the New Testament. It is sloppy and simply fallacious to read back, not only an obscure meaning but one that is five centuries after the New Testament! Patristic Greek: The standard Greek lexicon for Patristic Greek Lampe has the primary meaning of apostasia as “revolt, defection” and gives only one example of a spatial departure. This one instance is found in a NT apocryphal work on the tradition of the Assumption of Mary. Again, outside of the Koine period dated to the later 5th century A.D. So what do we make of all this lexical evidence? Here are the documented lexical facts: There were five Greek sources examined. The most weighty and important sources are in the Koine period, the New Testament and the Septuagint–not a single instance does apostasia carry the meaning of “physical departure.” Instead, every instance has the meaning of religious or political departure. The last two sources—Classical and Patristic Greek—are the least weighty and important because they are the furthest removed from the New Testament. There were only two instances from these sources that have a physical departure meaning—and both of these examples are dated late well into the 5th-6th century. This is why one will not find the “physical” (i.e. spatial) meaning in standard New Testament lexicons. BDAG defines this word as “defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” BDAG‘s predecessor Thayer Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Brown) Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (Balz) A third appeal to the cognate verb So how does the pretribber respond to these lexical facts? This is where the desperate leap takes place. We have done a responsible thorough examination of the noun apostasia demonstrating that the term does not carry a “physical-spatial” meaning in the Koine period. The pretribber will make the leap by pointing to the cognate verb form of apostasia, which is aphistemi, which means “to withdraw, remove, depart, leave.” It is used 14 times in the NT and is used both in a spatial and non-spatial sense. This is where the leap happens by assuming that the verb meaning carries over to the noun meaning. E. S. English succinctly states the pretrib reasoning: “since a noun takes its meaning from the verb, the noun, too, may have such a broad connotation.” Davey goes further saying, “Since the root verb has this meaning of ‘departure’ from a person or place in a geographical sense, would not its derivatives have the same foundational word meaning.” Enter the cognate and root fallacy. Cognates and roots is not the way any responsible exegete determines word meanings (Imagine reading the newspaper this way. Or love letters!) Instead, word meanings are determined by semantic range and its usage in context. Even Feinberg rejects this naïve method when he comments on this specific word: “the meaning of derivative nouns must be established through their usage.” (emphasis his) Perfect case in point: aphistemi Apostasion is a cognate noun to this verb, which only means “divorce or some other legal act of separation.” Apostater another cognate noun which means “one who has power to dissolve an assembly” or “to decide a question.” Since these derivative nouns do not contain the meaning of a spatial or physical departure (as the pretribber will not argue), there is absolutely no basis to assume that our target noun apostasia does as well. In other words, the pretrib cannot have their lexical cake and eat it too. It is first rank special pleading. The fourth appeal: context Since the semantic range does not include “physical or spatial departure” it is moot to even evaluate context—unless someone wants to argue that this is the only instance within 500 years that the term means a “physical departure”! Nevertheless, let’s argue context. To interpret the word “rebellion” in v. 3 as the “rapture” does not comport with the context, and as we will see it makes Paul unintelligible, even humorous. First, Paul is making a contrast of what precedes and what follows. The “gathering” (rapture) and parousia/day of the Lord is what follows (“For that day will not come unless”) the rebellion and revelation of the man of lawlessness. The pretrib view would have Paul in essence saying, “The rapture cannot happen until the rapture happens” But Paul is clearly marking certain events as signs or conditions that must take place before Christ’s return. Second, Paul does not simply mention “rebellion” (apostasy) and leave it at that. But the verse begins with Paul’s exhortation, “Let no one deceive you in any way.” This is followed by “For,” which in this case is called an “explanatory hoti (ὅτι).” That is to say, Paul is connecting the exhortation not to be deceived with the fact of rebellion and the man of lawlessness being revealed. In addition, some pretrib teachers have attempted to argue that since there is an article “the” before “rebellion” it indicates that the Thessalonians were familiar with some previous teaching by Paul. This is baseless, since they have to assume that it refers to the rapture. It is classic begging the question. But what does the context show us? Since this word in the Koine period always meant a “religious or political departure” should we then not be surprised that Paul makes references in this very context to “the truth” and “the Christian faith”? Indeed, he does: v. 2 “not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed” v. 3 “Let no one deceive you in any way” v. 10 “they refused to love the truth” v. 11 “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false” v. 13 “through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth” v. 15 “stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” In addition, the rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness are not two disconnected or unrelated events, but should be seen as a two-fold unifying event: “first” refers to both of the events that must happen before the day of the Lord. And what is the connection between Antichrist and the apostasy/rebellion? “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9–11. I recognize that there are other viewpoints of who actually apostatizes: My own position is #2 because I believe the immediate context in chapter 2 of the Antichrist’s activity informs us of the identity of the rebellion. Nevertheless, this is not particularly essential to my point in this article. Here is the big picture: The pretribulational “Physical Departure” argument fails on all four levels: It fails on appealing to early English versions It fails on appealing to five bodies of Greek literature It fails on appealing to its verbal cognate form It fails on appealing to context. Even the most noted pretibulational scholar John F. Walvoord did not take this “physical departure” interpretation: In the first edition of his popular book The Rapture Question (1957) he defended the “Physical Departure” argument. But after considering some of these arguments put forth by Robert H. Gundry, Walvoord rejected this common pretrib argument which he notes in his second edition of The Rapture Question (1979). Also, noted pretrib scholar Paul Feinberg writes, “there is no reason to understand Paul’s use of apostasia as a reference to the rapture” (When the Trumpet Sounds, 311). https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/09/11/does-apostasia-in-2-thessalonians-23-refer-to-a-physical-departure-i-e-the-rapture/
  6. The Timing of Christ's Return and Why it Matters Dawn of a New Day is an exciting new series of eight short, 10-minute videos which may offer the most up-to-date, convincing, and scripturally-sound arguments ever assembled regarding the Tribulation, Rapture timing, God’s Wrath, and preparing for Christ’s return. Many of us have based our understanding of End Time Events on long- outdated and disproven ideas. This video series will inspire you to consider new evidence.
  7. Dawn of a New Day is an exciting new series of eight short, 10-minute videos which may offer the most up-to-date, convincing, and scripturally-sound arguments ever assembled regarding the Tribulation, Rapture timing, God’s Wrath, and preparing for Christ’s return. Many of us have based our understanding of End Time Events on long- outdated and disproven ideas. This video series will inspire you to consider new evidence. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/228768-the-timing-of-christs-return-and-why-it-matters/ These videos are a "must" view. Please share them with everyone.
  8. JoeCanada

    The Measuring of the Temple

    Hi Last Daze, I've just read your booklet. In it, you state: "There’s a common misunderstanding about the mark which is that those who are deceived into receiving it and worshiping the image have sealed their fate by doing so. Suffice it to say that worshiping the man of sin is idolatry and will be forgiven if repented of. Revelation 14:9-12 describes the fate of those who persist in worshiping the man of sin, those who refuse to repent of their idolatry" I think it's a dangerous statement to say that "those who worship the beast and his image will be forgiven if repented of." Rev 14: 9-10 is pretty clear...."If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (Rev. 14:9-10) Worshiping the beast or taking his mark is an unforgivable sin. Why?.....simply because God's word says it is. This could very well be the 'time of testing for the whole world'....Rev 3:10 It is a test of whether or not someone has "saving faith" It's off topic, but since you put it out there to view your booklet, this jumped out at me. Respectfully........
  9. JoeCanada

    First time being here

    A very warm Worthy welcome Joe. Golly, I really like your name.....
  10. JoeCanada

    RESURRECTION

    Hello all... This has been a pretty good discussion. Hazard, Cobalt and others have made some great points regarding "observance" that I had not considered. I have also been questioning the "Sabbath observance". Seems like if we stumble on any part of what is required in keeping the Sabbath, then we in essence break the command of observance. We break the law! My questioning on keeping the Sabbath comes from Rev 12:17 "these are they who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus". So, which commandments are we to keep? Is it the one that Jesus gave in "John 13:34 ...I give you a new commandment, "Love one another as I have loved you"? (short version)......Or are they the 10 commandments?.....Or are these two people groups, Jews who keep the commandments and Christians who hold the testimony of Jesus?
  11. JoeCanada

    Who is the Bride

    Hi n2thelight, Well, I think this is a worthy question. I have been thinking, studying, praying on this since I read your question, but I don't have a solid answer......yet. In Rev 14, it describes the 144,000 standing with the Lord on Mount Sion. They sing a new song, which only they know. They are said to be chaste, not defiled with women, they are virgins...... They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. In their mouth was found no guile, and they are without fault before the throne of God. This couldn't be the Church.....they just don't meet the requirements. And the Church, being in the hundreds or thousands of millions, don't follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Only 144,000 do. This fact, of following the Lamb wherever He goes, seems to describe what a "Bride" would do. Wouldn't she stick to her husbands side? Also, in Rev 19:7....."His wife hath made herself ready"....... I don't see this as being the Church. Christ, by the shedding of His blood, He has made us ready. I also believe that the Church is the body of Christ, And we, the Church, are guests at the marriage supper, we are not the Bride. Like I said, I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards this. More studying-praying needs to be done before I can reach a conclusion. Great question though!
  12. JoeCanada

    Looking for Resurrection TRUTH

    Hi Abdicate.... Words of wisdom. Thank you. John 4:23-24 seems to sum it up pretty good. As for Rev 14:12.....I had this thought, probably from the Holy Spirit. Tell me if you agree. There are two groups of people here. Israel, "those that keep the commandments", and the Church, "those that have the testimony of Jesus". Does this make sense? In Rev 12:17, "the dragon goes to make war with those that keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus". Satan hates Jews and Christians, so it makes sense that he goes after them to annihilate them.
  13. JoeCanada

    Looking for Resurrection TRUTH

    Hi Abdicate.... Yes. He rose on Saturday. As I said in the OP...." So, a Wednesday crucifixion on the Passover, buried at the end of the day……”evening and the morning were the first day” (Gen1:5)…….and ‘the evening and the morning were the third day” (Gen 1:13)……..Wednesday evening, Thursday evening, Friday evening. Thursday day, Friday day, Saturday day. Three days and three nights. Jesus was, thus, in the tomb on Wednesday at evening, and rose from the dead Saturday at evening. So, my questions are these : Should we, as Bible believing Christians, follow the Sabbath (Saturday) for worshiping? Does it matter which Day we keep? In Rev 14:12, it says "they which keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus"........is He talking to believers?....... So do we have to keep the commandments? I know we are saved by grace...not by law. But I'm a bit confused about Rev 14:12. Who is He talking about?
  14. This just came to my attention. Will Saudi Arabia control the Temple Mount? Very interesting short read....and very prophetic! https://www.jerusalemonline.com/headlines/will-saudi-arabia-replace-the-jordanian-waqf-on-the-temple-mount
  15. Hi Alan.... The problem with those who hold to a "pre-tribulation" rapture is that they have to TWIST scriptures to make it fit. Of the 195 countries in the world, there is Christian persecution in 53 of them. That's more than 1/4 th. Of the 7.4 billion people on the earth, just over 2 billion are Christians. Of the 2 billion Christians, there is persecution/tribulation for 250 million of them. That's 1 in 8! Where is the promise of pre-trib rapture for them? They are beaten, raped, put in prison, tortured, beheaded, their homes are taken, their churches destroyed. They have no food, no jobs. They have no safety. They are on the run! Is it only the "saints" in North America who will be raptured before the "great" tribulation? Is it not a "great" tribulation for our brothers and sisters who face persecution/tribulation today? What do you say to those 250 million?.............Oh don't worry, it's not "great" yet. How much "greater" will it get? When tribulation comes "knocking" on our doors, and it will, what will we do then?
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