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  1. The chronological order of end time events

    So it sounds like you are saying that the church (the bride) won't go thru the Great Tribulation? Is this correct? Is the Bride greater than the Groom? Was Christs' persecution, torture and death on the cross the wrath of God, or the wrath of Satan? Jesus the Groom was delivered in the hands of His persecutors by God the Father himself, to be perfected through ultimate obedience and perseverance in remaining loving, even in suffering and martyrdom. So will his followers, the Bride, be delivered into the hands of the Beast and his followers by God the Father himself. Also to be perfected through ultimate obedience and perseverance in remaining loving, also in suffering and death. Only then Groom and Bride will become a perfect match. Let not our love grow cold, not even in the face of difficult times ahead, not though we are faced with hatred and persecution.
  2. The chronological order of end time events

    The problem with the 'pre-tribulation' position is that it is against what scripture plainly teaches. They falsely believe that the 'church' will be ushered out before the 'Great Tribulation'. They rely on a few verses to supposedly support their position. Like 1 Thes 5:9...."God has not appointed us to suffer wrath"..........and Rev 3:10...."keep thee from the hour of temptation"................... just to name a few. The 'Great Tribulation' and the 'Wrath of God" are two distinct 'trials and judgments'. One is against the Jews and Christians (Great Tribulation)...the other is against unbelievers who refused to repent (Wrath of God). Scriptures tell us that we MUST go thru tribulation to enter the Kingdom of God: The Bible says: “In the world ye shall have TRIBULATION” (John 16:33). “We must through much TRIBULATION enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22). “We glory in TRIBULATIONS also: knowing that TRIBULATION worketh patience” (Rom. 5:3). “TRIBULATION, or distress, or persecution” shall not separate us from Christ (Rom. 8:35-37). We are to be “patient in TRIBULATION” (Rom. 12:12), “joyful in all our TRIBULATIONS” (2 Cor. 7:4), and faint not at TRIBULATION (Eph. 3:13; 2Thess. 1:4). The Lord “comforteth us in all our TRIBULATION, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any TROUBLE [thlipsis — tribulation]” (2 Cor. 1:4). Jesus spoke of those who receive the word but do not become rooted and “when TRIBULATION or persecution ariseth” they give up (Mt. 13:21). Look at the 'great tribulation' that 100's of thousands of our brothers and sisters are facing daily in places like the Middle East, Africa, North Korea, China and others. They are being persecuted, butchered, tortured, raped because of their faith, the likes of which we can't even begin to imagine. Where is the 'Pre-tribulation' rapture for them? How come they have to go thru tribulation? Here in the west, we are being lulled to sleep by smooth talking ministers telling us ...."Oh don't worry, we won't go thru any tribulation. God will rapture us out before it begins" .............. It's absurd!!!!! Why are we better than them? Most of us are 'pew sitters'. We go once a week and listen to a sermon about (how nice things are) This is why there will be a 'great apostasy'. It's a great falling away. The sheep who are being numbed down won't have a clue. They'll say...."well my preacher said we won't face the antichrist"......."so if the preacher was wrong about that, what else is he wrong about".......and they'll fall away, millions of them. Saying that Mathew 24 was written for the Jews only, well, you may as well include all of Mathew, and Mark, Luke and John too. since there was 'no church' yet. And 'church' isn't mentioned after Rev 4....so the rest of Rev, you may as well disregard that too. The bible is getting smaller! Is there anything else that we should 'cherry pick', you know, to conform to our "view" of scripture?
  3. Who are the 144,000...?

    So lets get back to the question of who are the 144,000? Are they:............................ Jewish evangelists? ............................. Christians sealed from wrath? ............................. or the First fruits of the Jewish remnant who are saved? Amos tells us that the unsaved Jews will enter the Wrath of the God on the Day of the Lord: This time we are told the seal on the heads of 144,000 has Jesus’s name as well as the Father’s, they are saved at this point. We are also told they were redeemed as “first fruits.” The first fruits offerings that took place in ancient Israel were at once, the giving to God of the first of the harvest and second, were a “pledge” that the rest of the harvest would come in. It is the first fruits of the harvest that begins when the fullness of the gentiles has come in; the moment after which the partial hardening is lifted. After the partial hardening is lifted, then they can come to faith.
  4. The Day of the Lord

    Yes, our gathering together to Him.....at the seventh seal. When the seal is broken, then the resurrection, then the rapture, then the Day of the Lord begins. All in the same day. This is not my interpretation....it's what's laid out in scripture.
  5. Is it OK for me as a Muslim to debate bible

    Hi OneGodBeliever.....This is a conversation between a Muslim (M) and a Christian (C). It's a bit lengthy, but I think it explains the concept of God and the Trinity quite well M. You Christians believe in three Gods; Father, Mother, and Son. C. What makes you say that? M. Everyone knows that. You call it the Trinity. C. Yes, you are right that we believe in the Trinity, but it is not what you think. I know that this is what most Muslims understand. M. So explain to me what you understand. C. First of all I want to tell you that the Trinity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Secondly I’d like you to read this verse with me from the Bible. God told Moses in the Torah to tell God’s people these words: M. “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” (Deuteronomy 6:4) C. Yes, that’s right. This is one of the books of the Torah. There is no question that the Bible teaches that there is one God. Read also Exodus 20:3. M. “You shall have no other gods before me.” C. What do you think? M. Well, I did not know this is in the Bible. This sounds just like the Shahada. C. Exactly. Where do you think the Shahada came from? M. You mean the Shahada is from the Bible? C. Well, which came first? M. You have a point there. But isn’t this what the Jews believed? What about Christians? Did Jesus say that there is only one God? C. Yes, sure, here it is: please read Mark 12:28-31. This is a story of a man who knows the Torah well. He came to Christ to ask him questions and Jesus answered him. Please read the whole story. M. “One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” (Optional: read Acts 17:22-31; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6) C.What do you think? M. This is interesting. It is good that your Bible teaches the truth. But why do Christians say there are three Gods? C. Good question. Let me explain. What I know about God is a small fraction of who God really is. Do you agree that God is beyond our comprehension and he is greater than anything we can imagine? M. I agree. It is true. C. Let me draw you this picture. Here is God at the top of the paper. Let us draw a cloud around him because he is far away, unapproachable and mysterious. M. OK. C. Now let us draw down here at the bottom a man on earth. This line represents earth. Notice the huge gap between God and man. God is in heaven, man is on earth. God can see us, we cannot see him. God belongs to the invisible world and we belong to the visible world. Is that right? M. Sure. So far so good. Carry on. C. Gladly. Now let us assume that God wants to talk to human beings and tell them something they do not know. How can he do it? M. He sends prophets to speak for him. C. Great. That is exactly what happened. Who are some of these prophets? M. Adam. Noah. Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. C. Now let us take one of them. How about Moses? M. Sure. I know about Moses. C. What do you know? M. I know that God spoke to him in the desert and there was some fire. C. Yes that is good. God spoke. Now isn’t this strange that God speaks? How does God speak? What is his language? What is the volume of his voice? Can Moses understand the language of God? Can his ears handle the power of God’s voice? M. ??? C. God’s real voice is greater than the thunder. But God limited himself to the level of Moses. God spoke the language and even accent of Moses. He lowered his voice so low that Moses could hear it without hurting his ears. God used human language. Isn’t this truly amazing that God speaks to man? (Optional: Read parts of Exodus 3-4) M. Yes, I agree, but what does this have to do with the Trinity? C. The story of Moses teaches us about God and his nature. Because God loves us, he communicates with us. He spoke to Moses in the fire, through a voice in a human language. He spoke to Abraham through an Angel. (Optional: Read Genesis 18 and make note that one of the three men was called the Lord.) Now let us read an important verse from Hebrews 1:1-3. Can you read it please? M. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.” C. Thank you. As you can see God spoke through many different ways. But the main point is that every time God spoke he used a human means of communication. These are manifestations of God. Do you understand what I mean? M. Manifestations are ways God appears, right? C. Exactly. God is invisible. In order for people to understand him he uses not a heavenly language but human language and human means of communication. This shows his humility and love. C. So M, if God has done this for many centuries, is it strange that God reveals himself in a more perfect way than a voice or book? He revealed himself through Jesus Christ. Notice verse 3 in Hebrews 1: Jesus is the exact representation of God, His image. M. I think I understand it a little. It seems unreal. C. Yes it is unreal. Let me explain something else. Is that OK? M. Sure. I really want to know everything about God and Jesus. C. Let us read John 1:1-3, 14. This is another of those amazing verses that are difficult for a human mind to grasp. M. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him, was not anything made that was made.......And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth" C. Let me explain something about the Word. Before you speak what happens in the brain? M. I think about what I want to say. C. Right. You think about it before you say anything. If you order food at a restaurant, the waiter can wait for a long time without knowing what you like to eat or drink until you open your mouth and speak. So in a way your words are children of your mind. In Arabic we have a saying: “Al kalimaat banatu eshifah.” (Words are daughters of the lips.) Here in John, the gospel is saying that before God created the world, he thought about it. That “thought” is the logos in Greek. In Hebrew it is “wisdom” and in Arabic it is “Al Kalima,” or “the Word.” M. I see what you mean. But it is still hard to understand. C. I totally agree. No one really fully understands it because we are earthly humans who are talking about heavenly things. In John 3:12-13 Jesus said something like this to a high ranking religious Jew who could not understand him. Will you read it please? M. “I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.” C. Exactly. We humans are limited in our understanding. But we try our best. It is basically this: as the word is a tangible (“Ma7sous” in Arabic) manifestation of the mind, Jesus is the physical, tangible manifestation of God who is, the great mind and intelligent power. But what we need to understand is that Jesus is physically man, but in his Spirit he is God, just as when you pour water into a bucket, it is still water. The bucket is just like the body of Jesus, the water is the Spirit of God. M. A lot to think about. C. I want to give you one other example which I think will make things clear. Let us take the Sun as an example. Here are facts: The Sun is 93 million miles away from us. We cannot ever go to the sun for two main reasons. One, we just cannot travel that far. Two, if we approach the Sun, we will burn up. In the same way, God is so far away that we cannot approach him. Read this verse from (Exodus 33:20) God said to Moses: “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” (explain the context) But the Sun can come to us in some limited form. How does the sun come to us? M. By its light, I guess. C. Exactly. This is how God came down to us; through his Light, Jesus. Please read John 9:5. M. “While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” Wow. that is interesting. So Jesus is the light that came down from heaven. C. You got it. As you can see, the light that is here with us came from the ball of fire that is far from us, and yet they are one. Can we say figuratively that the fire is the father of the light? M. I see. In Arabic we have the word “waalid” and “walad.” So the “walad” is Jesus and the “waalid” is God? C. Well, M. you seem to have grasped it. Exactly like the fire has light and they are not separated even though the light travels all these millions of miles, God the Father and Jesus the Son are inseparable. They possess the same nature. This is the only way we could experience God; by him coming down to our level. We cannot possibly go to him ourselves. He came down to us because he loves us and wants us to live in the light, not in darkness. M. This is really good. But what about the Holy Spirit? C. I was just about to talk about that. Let me ask you: What does the Light bring with it? What do we experience other than being able to see everything around us? M. Do you mean the heat? So the Holy Spirit is the heat? C. Certainly. You can also call it the energy, the power, or “Dunamos” in Greek. It seems that you really have begun to understand. M. Yes, I think I do understand the concepts that you have explained to me. But for some reason it still does not make sense to me. It seems impossible for God to be like that. I’d like to believe what you are saying, and what the Bible teaches, but I keep thinking about it and I’m stuck. C. I think I know why you are stuck, and it’s not because you lack intelligence. You are very smart, but no matter how smart you are, you will never understand without one crucial element. Would you read 1 Corinthians 2:14 for me? M. “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” C. You see, God is much too vast for any human to fully understand. So God must reveal the truth to us, and enable us to understand it. If you truly want to understand this, you need to pray, and ask God to open your eyes. To encourage you, let us read this short story from Matthew 16:13-17. Jesus wanted to help the disciples understand who he was. So he asked them and this is what happened. Please read: M. “When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. C. I believe that as Peter understood by God’s revelation, you can too. Do you want God to reveal this to you? OneGodBeliever....I hope this makes sense to you.
  6. The Day of the Lord

    Hi Montana Marv, When does the day of the Lord start? Joel 2 30-31 tells us.... Joel 2:30-31 New American Standard Bible (NASB) The Day of the Lord 30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. 31 “The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. If we study Revelation carefully, there is only one place where fire comes down from heaven that could be the fire on the Day of the Lord: the First Trumpet Judgment: Revelation 8:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 7 The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. The mixture of hail and fire is a direct reference to Ps 18 Let's go back to what Paul says: 2Thes 2:6-10 .....it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels...... So we have "relief for the saints" (ressurection/rapture).....and this comes when Jesus is revealed with His mighty angels in Shekinah glory. It does not happen until that point. and "affliction for the unrighteous" (Wrath of God/Day of the Lord)......... In Luke 17:29-30, 29" but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and [a]brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be [b]just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed." Jesus is telling us that on the same day He is revealed (with his angels in flaming fire) and saves the righteous (pictured by Noah and Lot) punishment will be poured out on the wicked that includes fire and brimstone. In Thes 2......."to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for IT will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed......" Right there we have the timing of the Day of the Lord. ......."for IT will not come"....."IT" referring to the Day of the Lord, because the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness comes first. The seven sealed scroll contains the title deed to the earth, the book of life (all the names of the righteous) and the wrath of God. After the seventh seal is broken, there is silence in heaven for a half an hour. Zephaniah prophesied this would happen prior to the pouring out of God's wrath. "Be silent before the Lord God, for the Day of the Lord is near." Zeph 1:7 Psalm 65: 1-4........" There will be silence [a]before You,(in heaven) and praise in Zion,(on earth) O God, And to You the vow will be performed. 2 O You who hear prayer, To You all [b]men come. 3 [c]Iniquities prevail against me; As for our transgressions, You [d]forgive them. 4 How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You To dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple. This passage shows the contrast of silence in heaven and praise on earth. This happens at the seventh seal. Jesus has left heaven and has gone for his bride........the rapture/resurrection! So, the Day of the Lord begins at the seventh seal. The seal opens, the rapture/resurrection takes place, the Day of the Lord commences. The Great Tribulation begins at the midpoint of the 70th week. "Unless those days were cut short".....well, they are cut short, by the rapture/resurrection. If we, on the earth, are supposed to endure the full tribulation, that would be 3 1/2 years. But God cuts it short. So if are resurrected/raptured after enduring for a while, that would leave time for the Day of the Lord being about a year long. You said........"the 6th Trumpet takes at least 6 months or more to travel from China to the Euphrates River (1800 miles, based on 25 miles per day); and at least another month for the first of this group to reach Armageddon from the Euphrates River (700 miles) Talking about conjecture.....on your part. Are you suggesting that the army of 200 million are Chinese? And they are all on horses? As of 2012, there were only about 60 million horses world wide...... old horses, young horses, race horses, trail horses. As were the locusts of the fifth trumpet were demons, I suggest that the army of 200 million in the sixth trumpet will also be demonic. Also, note that it says "they are released" Rev 9: 13-15....Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard [a]a voice from the [b]four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of [c]mankind. "they" .....refers to the four angels. "they" would kill a third of mankind. 17 And [a]this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of [b]brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and [c]brimstone. 18 A third of [d]mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the [e]brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm. You said:......."For sure the Wrath of God begins on a day.... But Scripture does not say it lasts for only one year. Conjecture on your part." I've provided three scriptures to prove it lasts a year: For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. (Isa 34:8) To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God (Isa. 61:2) For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come. (Isa. 63:4) You said....."Here all mankind and animals were killed within the first few days. The floods and rains lasted only 40 days. So where is Gods Wrath beyond the 40th day. There is none, so your One Year and 10 days does not fly. God's wrath was not in the rain only. His judgment was a full year . Thanks for your dialogue....much appreciated
  7. The Day of the Lord

    Hi iamlamad....I respect your honesty. So what is wrong with this view? Can you be specific
  8. What would you do?

    Hi Gleason 92:...I'm replying to your post. Here are my thoughts: I don't believe it will be a physical mark. In Ephesians 1:13, it says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit after we believed. In Deut 6 4-8 it says: Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as [a]frontals [b]on your forehead. In Rev 13:17....And that no man may buy or sell save he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, OR the number of his name. Also in Rev 14 11-12....."who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receiveth the mark of his name".....and here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" So it has to do with worship. I can't see a chip being implanted in the forehead or in the hand as being anything. Can you imagine the time it would take to implant everyone....especially in places like India or China, going around to all the villages. Time will tell. Guess we won't know till the antichrist makes his debut. I found an interesting line in Daniel 11:43...."but he shall have power over the treasures of silver and gold"
  9. Does Daniel 8 tell when the final Judgement begins?

    Like so many others, you've missed the most important verse in Daniel 8....... He said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.” Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright. He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.” (Dan. 8: 17-19 NASB) Many believe that Daniel 8 was fulfilled thousands of years ago by the Persians and the Greeks because events then were similar to the prophecy. The Angel Gabriel makes 3 separate references that this vision applies to the time of the end and the final indignation God sealed the book of Daniel so its meaning was incomprehensible until the “time of the end.” (Dan. 12: 4) The fact that we can now understand Daniel 8:17-19 proves we are in the time of the end. Daniel Chapter 8 clearly prophesies this event as the first step in a prophecy that leads to the revealing of the Antichrist. In the vision a ram head butts its way westward, northward and southward (Dan. 8:3-5). The ram is then attacked by a shaggy goat who defeats the ram (Dan. 8:5-7). After the Angel Gabriel informs Daniel that this vision applies to the time of the end (further proof this is end time prophecy), he identifies the ram and the shaggy goat. The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia. The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece (Dan. 8: 20-21 NASB) These verses are one of the primary stumbling blocks of historic expositors. They see the names of ancient kingdoms and think, “aha! this has an ancient fulfillment.” Nothing could be further from the truth. One verse earlier Gabriel advised Daniel that the entire vision concerns the appointed time of the end. Media and Persia disappeared over a thousand years ago. So why did the angel use the names of these ancient kingdoms? The name of Iran (which occupies the same land as ancient Media and Persia) would have meant nothing to Daniel who lived 2500 years ago. The angel gave Daniel names of the ancient peoples who occupied that piece of land that currently is Iran. Those names Daniel was familiar with. There is no doubt that if it “headbutts” west, north and south, Iran will fulfill Daniel 8. Who is the goat? The Hebrew word translated “Greece” is actually Yavan. Yavan were an ancient people that occupied eastern Greece and western Turkey. The principle city within the region is Istanbul. The Angel is not referring to Greece but rather to the Yavan people who occupy modern Turkey! Turkey is the goat. Daniel has instructed us that a great war is about to take place between Iran and Turkey and Turkey will prevail. It will be a war between Shia Muslim and Sunni Muslims. There have been wars throughout history. Why does scripture highlight this particular war? Because it launches the career of the Antichrist. Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. (Dan. 8: 9 – 11 NASB) The little horn is the Antichrist. His coming is ushered in by this war we are about to witness. Every Christian needs to aware of this prophecy. Iran’s invasion will mark the beginning of the end.
  10. The Day of the Lord

    THE DAY OF THE LORD In Chapter Two of 2 Thes, Paul seems to indicate that the Thessalonians received a letter that he says appeared “as if from us” saying the Day of the Lord had already happened and Christ had returned. It appeared that Paul had been informed that the Thessalonians were distressed and shaken by the news. In response then, Paul wrote this letter which he says only re-explains what he told them in person when he was with them:
  11. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    This is a fantastic debate. Well done. Brotherly/Sisterly love. Iron sharpening iron. I'd like to share this article that came in my mail box this morning. Very relevant. It's written by Alan Kurschner from Eschatos Ministries. by ALAN KURSCHNER Many of us were told that the church will be “raptured out of here before the Antichrist’s arrival.” The Bible, however, teaches the church will first experience the Antichrist’s great tribulation. Then, at some unknown day and hour, Antichrist’s persecution will be cut short by the return of Christ to resurrect and rapture believers before the day of the Lord’s wrath—hence, Prewrath. The purpose why the church will suffer greatly just before Christ’s second coming will be for purging and purifying, separating out those who claim to have faith from those who actually possess true faith. But believers are promised deliverance before the day of the Lord’s wrath. Accordingly, there is an important biblical distinction between the events of the Antichrist’s great tribulation and the day of the Lord’s wrath. Antichrist’s great tribulation will be directed against the church, followed by the day of the Lord’s wrath directed against the ungodly. The apostle Paul states: Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness [Antichrist] is revealed, the son of destruction. (2 Thess 2:1–3) ANTICHRIST’S GREAT TRIBULATION The great tribulation will begin at the time of the “abomination of desolation” (Matt 24:15, 21). Jesus, drawing from the prophet Daniel, uses this expression to personify Antichrist as a detestable idol that causes sacrilege (Dan 9:27, 12:11). Paul describes the Antichrist as “the man of lawlessness,” He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God’s temple, displaying himself as God. (2 Thess 2:4; cf. Dan 7:25; 11:36; Rev 13:5–6) Jesus, Paul, and the book of Revelation warn of the Satanic deception of signs and wonders associated with the Antichrist (Matt 24:24; 2 Thess 2:9; Rev 13:13–14). The Antichrist’s great tribulation against believers, Jesus says, will be “unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen” (Matt 24:21; cf. Rev 13). Believers will risk persecution because they will refuse to follow Antichrist: If anyone is meant for captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed by the sword, then by the sword he must be killed. This requires steadfast endurance and faith from the saints. (Rev 13:10; cf. Rev 14:9–13) So great the martyrdom that Jesus says, “And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short” (Matt 24:22; cf. 2 Thess 1:7). It is no wonder why the fifth seal martyrs cry out to God, “How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” (Rev 6:10). CELESTIAL DISTURBANCE God hears their prayers and he eventually cuts short the great tribulation by the return of Christ to first deliver his people and then execute his wrath upon the wicked. Just before this occurs, Jesus says a celestial event will take place: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matt 24:29–30 ESV; cf. Luke 21:25–26; Rev 6:12–17) The prophet Joel explicitly prophesies that these celestial disturbances will happen “before the Day of the Lord comes” (Joel 2:31). For the ungodly, the celestial disturbances signal impending wrath (Luke 21:26). It is also graphically depicted in the sixth seal (Rev 6:15–17). But for believers, it is a signal to “stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near” (Luke 21:28). RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE Christ will then appear in the sky in all his splendid glory and his angels “will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”(Matt 24:31). Paul expands on this gathering using explicit resurrection and rapture language (1 Thess 4:13–18). Between the sixth and seventh seal, the book of Revelation depicts the raptured as “a great multitude that no one could number” who were “the ones who have come out of the great tribulation” (Rev 7:9, 14). This is followed by the onset of God’s judgment (Rev 8:1–6). DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH The prophets describe this period as righteous judgment, vengeful, fiery, dreadful, inescapable, bloody, destructive, and decisive (e.g. Joel 2:28–3:21; Isa 2:10–22; 13:6–13; Obad 15; Zeph 1:1–18). Jesus, Paul, and Peter warn these judgments are for the ungodly (Matt 24:37–41; 1 Thess 5:1–11; 2 Pet 3:1–18). On the same day the rapture occurs, the day of the Lord’s wrath begins, just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:22–37; cf. 2 Thess 1:5–10). The book of Revelation teaches that the wrath begins at the breaking of the seventh seal, which contains the trumpet and bowl judgments (Rev 8–9, 15–16). In light of this sober teaching, it is imperative that we spiritually prepare our hearts to be “overcomers” for what may soon come to pass, because Jesus warned: “Remember, I have told you ahead of time.” —Matt 24:25
  12. Hello, New Member Here!

    Hi Francine. A hearty welcome to Worthy
  13. It's good to be here

    Very inspiring Mishael. I tell you ..... the angels are rejoicing....hallelujah.... WELCOME!
  14. Greetings Again!

    Hey hidden. Well, I'm kinda new around here. But welcome back.
  15. Hi I'm Katie

    Hi Katie. Nice to have you onboard. Welcome to the forum.