IserveIam

But Paul was put on a pedestal, one higher even then Jesus'.

St. Hilarion Troitsky 1889-1929 Christianity requires a humble awareness. My forefather, Adam, was perfect, but I, mankind, introduced only sin and corruption. The Church calls us to humility when it calls Adam our ancestor. But evolution? Descent from the ape? No matter how modestly we rate ourselves, it is impossible not to think with a certain pride: “After all, I am not an ape; after all, progress is manifest in me.” Thus, by calling the ape our ancestor, evolution feeds human pride. If we compare ourselves to the ape we can be proud of our progress, but if we think of sinless Adam, outward progress losses its value. The progress is external, but it is also a sophisticated sin. If mankind is steadily progressing forward, then we can hope in ourselves. We create ourselves. But the Church says the opposite: “We could not become incorrupt and immortal had not the Incorrupt and Immortal One first become the same as we are.” Believing in the incarnation means confessing that without God, all of mankind is nothing. Throughout the ages, the Church carries the ideal of deification. This ideal is very high, but it demands very much from man. It is unthinkable without the incarnation; it demands first of all that man be humble. Mankind is renouncing this high ideal, and has no need of the incarnation of the Son of God. An infinitely depreciated ideal of life allows man to talk of progress, and gives him the opportunity to be proud of his accomplishments. These two series of ideas make up two different worldviews: that of the Church, and that which is not of the Church. The worldview that is not of the Church—descent from the ape, progress, having no need of and denying the incarnation—is pride. Accepting the incarnation is inseparably bound with humility. Pride wars with the incarnation, as with something unneeded. (Hieromartyr Hilarion [Troitsky], Works in Three Volumes [Moscow: Sretensky Monastery, 2004], 3:294)

AndI'm telling you i see the danger to but I'm mature enough to handle the meat of the Word

I mean you can say what you want. You don't know where my heart is.

I'm not focused on the throne. I asked a question regarding a Scripture. Trust me, I know my unworthiness full well but it was Jesus who counted me worthy and called me. When God changed Abram's name to 'father of a multitude', it would have been sinful for Abraham to refer to himself as Abram? Why? Because God called Him something different. In I Corinthians Paul alludes to the new body we shall receive and said he groans because he longs to be clothed in immortality. Wait a minute? Isn't God alone immortal? Paul said he longs to be clothed with incorruptibility. Wait a minute? Isn't God only, incorruptible? Similarly, I long to be clothed with immortality and incorruptibility and a seat at the throne WITH Christ. Why? Because according to the Word, that's my new identity. A new creation in Christ. Trust me, I'm focused on Christ and everything He said about me. Why would He give us exceeding great and precious promises if we can't look forward to them? Hebrews 11 describes myriads of believers who by faith looked forward to the promises of God and God has promised to clothe us with immortality, incorruptibility and seat at His table. I'm not making this up. It's all Scriptural. Just because I highlight these great promises of God doesn't mean I'm not focused on the promise giver because I couldn't have the promises without Christ.

Revelation 21:3 says that God's dwelling place is with man and He will live among us. God will rule the cosmos and beyond, right from the Earth. You mentioning Jesus handing the Kingdom back to the Father is one of the points I have been trying to stress. Jesus is undoubtedly a part of the Godhead yet, being God, He is still subordinate to the Father. Actually, unity as quoted is the Greek word "ἕν", translated into English primarily as 'one'. It's the same Greek word Jesus used in verse 22 when He said make them one, as we are one. Even more, it's the same Greek word used when Jesus declared that Him an the Father are one in John 10:30, which the Jews understood as Jesus claiming equality with God. Jesus said Him and the Father are one amd then later on said make them one with us, I in the them and You in me. His words not mine. I can understand why feathers would be ruffled by this concept but if it's being t rightly divided, I don't see what the issue is. Everyone made fun of Noah for building an ark for a flood when it had never even rained before. God doesn't do the ordinary. I would never teach this doctrine to a new Christian because if the mindset of seasoned Christians is one of offense what would it mean for a new Christian?

21I will grant the one who conquers permission to sit with me on my throne, just as I too conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. In this verse He doesn't specify heaven or earth. He just says we will sit on His throne as He sat on the Father's throne. Now, Jesus throne has dominion over heaven and earth. That's the throne He said we would sit on. Can I ask now, why are people troubled by this Scripture. It's not like Im twisting words or anything of the sort like Satan did in the garden with Jesus. As I said before, I'm not the one that said I would sit in the throne, Jesus did. He also said in the same chapter that He would write His new name on us. When a husband marries, isn't it custom for the husband to write his name om his bride? And doesn't the identity of the husband and wife become intrinsically linked? Isn't it apparent that it is all of shadow of the True marriage?

Ok. Well I'm no false Christ, false prophet. I'm just proclaiming thr Word and our position in Christ.

In the spirit of humility I ask, where does it say that all this is allegorical? Why do we keep trying to allegorize God's Word instead of taking it literally. In Jewish custom in Jesus' time, the father would arrange the marriage for the son and when everything was in place and readt, the son would come for his bride. Christ said He is going to prepare a place for us and come and receive us to Himself. That's not allegorical. Way back in the first book of Genesis God introduces marriage and says the man and the woman shall become one flesh. In the last book of the Bible it comes full circle as Christ now marries His church and the two become one. Marriage was just a foreshadow of Christ's marriage to His people.

My issue is the assumption that this is coming from a heart of pride or impure motives. Paul says he eagerly awaits his new body. Is he being proud in tbis moment? No. He is rejoicing in a future event. I am merely doing the same thing. Do you I honestly think I feel like deity? I'm powerless in this old tent as the Word describes our body. I am simply stating a future event when we will, In Christ, sit on His throne and rule and reign with Him.

Just trying to make a point that this teaching is strictly from the Word and the churches ignore it from a mind of unworthiness. Jesus died and made us worthy and qualified which is why we can stand in His presence. Yes from a heart standpoint we are so unworthy but from a practical standpoint we are worthy because Christ died to make us so.

My heart and my motives are pure. I'm trying to encourage all my brothers and sisters to recognize who they are in Christ. Why is the Church ineffective today.....they don't know who they are. I'm going to make one last point to try to make this hit home. In John Jesus said "I and the Father are one" and the Jews picked up stones to throw at him because He claimed equality with God. Later in John Jesus prays and says "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. I in them, You in me in complete unity. Jesus drugs Him and the Father are one and then says make them one with Us. That's the heart that I'm coming from

Not WOF and i condemn prosperity gospel. Jesus said we sit on His throne. Do you dispute that? Both of yall are still drinking milk from the teat of the pastor. If you knew how to early church operated, it was nothing like now. Everyone had a word, everyone shared something. Not today. Can't ask a quaint in church, only the pastor can bring forth the Word, don't question the traditions handed down, etc.. That's why i left the ssytemic religious world and its thousands of denominations.

Say what you want. And you can address it to me if you're going to talk about me. Jesus said we'll sit on His throne. Dance around Scriptures all you want to and pretend it's not there but not me. I consider the whole Word.

The way is narrow and so is the gate. I'll be odd man out. So where all the other true saints. Have a good one.

Yeah, says you. Why would the Creator of all things everywhere tell me that if I overcome I can sit on His throne as a reward. Better yet, why would I listen to you over what the True God has spoken. Jesus said, not me, "I will grant you to sit on my throne." Your issue is with Jesus and His Word not me. And Jesus declared equality with me when He said He will not be ashamed to call me His brother or sister. Jesus raised me up. You can stay groveling on the ground if you want but Jesua said "Follow me." That's what I'm doing, following Him, His Word, His will, His ways, imperfectly but I'm striving towards the mark of the high calling I Christ Jesus. I recognize my inferiority but I also recognize what His word says. We are born of God. It's something unique and special. Abraham Issac ad Jacob were never born of God and if you think Im making it up look in the gospels and read what Jesus said about John the Baptist. He said he was the greatest man born of a woman but the least in the kingdom is greater than John. You seem so sure that you're hermeneutics are solid while attacking mine. That's pride.

@1sheepAnd how about you do a study on Roman adoption policies and the Huios son of God and the revealing of the sons of God all taken from 8th chapter of Romans

I'm in Christ. You take that how you want. And you're so hostile but wont answer my question. If your next response wont even touch my question I have nothing else to say.

yet you still can't answer my question of how God will share His glory with us when He said He would give His glory to no man. How about instead og antagonizing me, you answer the question laid before you because its from Scripture. Not the apocrypha, sacred texts etc.....This is the problem within the Church and why I broke away from systemic religion because I can't even get a straight answer from my pastor. Everyone wants to follow traditions instead of reading and studying the Word for themselves. So are you going ti answer my question?

Thank you. I would rather someone consider it before casting aside. This is five plus years of studying this one thing with many witnesses from Scripture, early reputable church fathers, etc. This is not a pride thing. I wouldn't care if i was a drop of dung in heaven as long as I could be with Christ, but the Word doesn't say we're a drop of dung. It says we are Christ body. It takes body to make a person. Please please please dont take it wrong, but a body can't survive without a head and a head can't survive without a body. Every thing is one. Yes Christ can survive without a body, I'm not implying that, but He is also so vastly intelligent that He wouldn't have made Himself a head without a body, His body-us.

Jesus said the Father was His God yet in Hebrews we find where the Father said to the Son "Your throne, O God, is forever. Don't you see the Son glorifies the Father and the Father glorifies the Son? Jesus prayed and asked the Father to glorify us just as He glorifies the Son so that we may all BE ONE IN ONE.

I wholeheartedly agree that the entire Counsel of God should be examined before coming to any conclusions. I have been wrestling with this topics for years . I am of the understanding that the verse pertaining to many coming in His name is a bad mistranslation. Remember in the context Jesus is talking to His disciples. No crowds, no unbelievers. He is saying, and I could be wrong but this is how I view that passage, that many people will come in very subtly in the name of Christ (compare Matthew 7:22 I believe) claiming that Jesus is the Messiah but will decieve many. Wolves in sheeps clothing. God said there are no other gods but Him yet He is three. I'm not saying that we are going to become gods, I'm saying that because our identity is so utterly wrapped up in Christ that He has no choice but to see us as such. Everyone keeps saying just stay focused on Jesus yet to refute my argument they draw back to self when I am focused on Christ. Paul said it best about how much so out identity is linked to the Christ. He said I'm crucified with Christ, yet I live, but it's not me living, its Christ in me that lives. God has put treasure in these earthly vessels, He has put Himself. Why do you think it says we are the Temple of God where God chooses to dwell? what does me not being the head have to do with anything? The Father is the head of Jesus. Does that diminish His position? His authority? No it doesn't. My boss is over me yet we're still two human beings on an equal level. Jesus lowered Himself to raise us up to Himself in Himself. Now i answered your question....answer mine because I'm coming to you straight from the Word and you're avoiding it. Jesus prayed the Father and asked Him to give us His glory, the glory of God. How can that be when the LORD said in the Old Testament that he will give His glory to no one? You don't find a contradiction there?

Keep skipping my questions. How can God give us His glory???

Riddle me this then. In the old Testament God says He will noy give His glory to no man. Jesus prays and asks the Father to give us the glory they share. How can that be? That is a total contradiction (not in my mind). I understand we're servants. We're all servants. Jesus serves the Father, we serve Jesus and the angels serve us. That does not diminish who Jesus is because He serves the Father. Similarly, we are the Body of Christ. Stop allegorizing the Word. How can the feet or the arms or legs or torso be separate from the Body and still be called part of the Body? It's impossible. The branches cent help but to suck up the life in the vine. Seriously, get into the meat of the Word and leave the elementary things behind.

My entitlement comes from the Word. John said Jesus have us the right to become children of God. As His son, I am entitled to everything my Father has. That's what the Word says.