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Larry H

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About Larry H

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  1. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Greetings .... I thought I switch gears to an alternative to preterism, tribulationalizm, I know Just another izm on the end times.. In my brief study I found three position, Pre, Mid, and Post tribulationists. All incorporating the timing of the Rapture, being caught up literally to meet the Lord in the air.. Founded on what Paul said to the Thessalonians, and the Millennium mentioned by John in the book of Revelation. Not forgetting verses taken out from the Olivet Discourse. May I might ask which arrangement is settled on, and why in view of the fact it necessitate a expectation of a future second coming. I am certain there is a good deal I can gain knowledge of here concerning the Rapture theology in this open forum. I posted it here since there are two schools of thought in preterism concerning the verses in Thessalonians, the Physical Ruptured, caught up, which came to pass in the first century, or a spiritual gathering of the Saints. Not too sure about the elements of the spiritual gathering yet.
  2. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Hi Uriah I agree Well said ....."He also said (NASB) Acts 1:8- but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” Sometime I think we do not bestow sufficient recognition to our first century brothers and sister who passed through a great tribulation and death to provide us with the Good News of the Gospel, penned by the Holy Spirit. Reaching people throughout the world as you mentioned. I'll give the full Preterist view on "no one knows the day or hour" since it begs the question of what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:36. And the paradigm, the end of the world, which I believe the KJV deposited in the psyche of Christians since the middle ages. Matthew 24:3 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? KJV Matthew 24:3 The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age (Mark 13:3-13; Luke 21:17-19) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" NKJV There is no question it is understood in verses 1 and 2 of Matt. 24 that Jesus is speaking of the destruction of the Jewish Temple in AD 70. Why would the disciple all of a sudden inquire about the "end of the world," as stated in the KJV. Which was later corrected in the NKJV, and changed the idiom "world" with "age", as all other translation did? The "age" spoken of I believe was the consummation of Old Covenant dispensation, the Mosaic economy which was realized by the temple's destruction followed by "the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away" Daniel 12:11
  3. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Hi Uriah I will have to back track on the nature of the coming of Christ. He came in glory manifested by THE DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM AND ITS TEMPLE IN AD 70. He came in the generation, first generation, He said he would.. I believe this is what Christ and the disciples had in mind in Matthew 24:1-3 where I think the second coming/Parousia originated for believers today. I hope that is satisfactory to your question Uriah. I had no intention to take you for a ride. Those things, scriptures I cut and pasted, and perhaps articles from the Preterits camp would give the read besides yourself what preterism is all about. Those who never took the time, or cared to find out of this theology. So where in the bible do the Apostles or Christ specifically indicated an over 2000 year return to earth to set up His corporeal Kingdom in the way it is presented in the Christian community. OK Your up Kind Regards Larry
  4. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Hi Uriah Was it something I said 😲 Your quotes "Man, you really wanted to go there?------oi-kü-me'-nā" "Good thing the disciples were packing their Greek concordances." "Of all people, you should understand the audience relevance thing here" Audience relevance Connect the dots and see if it comes up with as over a two thousand year fulfillment. Or a verse with double fulfillment's in the New Testament. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be PREACHED IN THE WHOLE WORLD as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come NIV Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, THIS GENERATION will certainly not pass away UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED. Colossians 1:6 "ALL OVER THE WORLD this gospel is bearing fruit" .... Present tense. "So I ask again, WHEN did Jesus return" Steak on the grill, in the next post my brother
  5. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    So then the "world" is now the Roman world by analysis. Yes in Matthew 24:14 Not in John 3:16 Good your computer is fixed. The following SOUNDS LIKE GREED TO ME ALSO, ☺️ But it shows the difference between the two verses in question. Note that in John 3:16 the Greek word is kosmos "the inhabited earth" , In Matthew 24:14 the Greek word oikoumene "specifically, the Roman empire" I believe it will become clear in the next verse. Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. KJV Luke 2:1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. NIV "Two thousand years ago, at the dawn of the first century, the world was ruled by Rome"
  6. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Perhaps it is something Jesus said concerning His second visitation that made the disciples misunderstand the imminent timing of it ? " I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes" "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." " Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
  7. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    According to Preterist and none preterist alike it was preached to the whole world. I took the liberty to checked some commentaries, and this is what I came up with. If Jesus wanted to refer to "the world" as we know it, he would have used the Greek word kosmos. Instead he used oikoumeneen which in Strong's Greek and Hebrew expanded Dictionary means specifically the Roman Empire. oikoumene. The details are as follows. People's New Testament This gospel of the kingdom, etc. The gospel was preached throughout the Roman empire, "the world" of the New Testament, before A. D. 70. Adam Clarke's Commentary Matthew 24:14 "Perhaps no more is meant here than the Roman empire; for it is beyond controversy that pasan teen oikoumeneen, Luke 2:1, means no more than the whole Roman empire: as a decree for taxation or enrolment from Augustus Caesar could have no influence but in the Roman dominions; but see the note at Luke 2:1" Barnes' Notes Matthew 24:14 [Then shall the end come.] When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple. [Then shall the end come] The end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of the temple and city. "Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Matt. 24:14). The good news had been preached to all the world by the time the book of Romans and the book of Colossians were written in the first century. Romans 10:18, “Their voice (the voice of those preaching the good news) has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world”. Col. 1:23, “This…gospel…has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven”. And shortly after the good news was preached in the whole world in the first century, the end of the Old Testament world came in fiery judgment in A.D. 70, at the destruction of Christ’s enemies." David Green
  8. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Hi Uriah Are the futurist suggesting. James 5:7 "Be PATIENT, THEN, BROTHERS, UNTIL THE LORD'S COMING" 8 "be patient and stand firm, because the LORD'S COMING IS NEAR" 1 James was misguided 2 Trying to put the brothers on their toes 3 The children of God should always look for His coming like a thief in night 4 James had it right and it did it come to pass in the first century.
  9. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Hi Uriah That is correct that the absence of historical material of the expectation of what the Parousia post AD 70 would bring to the first century Church is a dilemma, unspoken of, by the preterist community. In other words why the silence for three decades by the faithful living Apostle's, if there was one alive, or many other Christians? It would seem appropriate to write about the destruction of Jerusalem, and the demolition of the temple. Matthew 24 Not a word. It's observable there would be some people who witnessed the Parousia, and yet it is a documentation problem. Even so for the futurist. As one Full preterist put it, "Something is drastically wrong with this picture! The silence is SCREAMING -- a "deafening" silence so LOUD that even our critics have heard it. Why haven't we?" BTW according to the partial and full preterist view the book of Revelation was written sometime during Nero's reign. 66 AD. There are many scholars who take the early dating of Revelation.
  10. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Hi Uriah There were and still are Pastors across America with false prediction of the second coming in our future supplying atheist, and none believers with ammunition to debunk the bible. As they endeavor to come across a News Paper article to match their last days predictions. So far I have never encountered a futurist who doesn't sweep their guess work under a rug. While these authors inscribe calculation books, that are flying of Christian bookstore shelves, may be good educators of the bible, force Christians to doubt their views on last days eschatology. If the last days phrase in the New Testament only refers to the last days of the Mosaic polity the futurist has no place to go except to preteristic religious studies for solutions. So I advance with an open minds to be filled with the Spirit of God to make sure of all things, and hold on to what is fine in His sight. I'm sure just like yourself. God Bless
  11. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Hi Uriah ..... I would rather be called a Child of God, Christian, or just a Bible Student simply like yourself. They say Partial Preterism leads to full Preterism, which at the time seems like the right thoroughfare to take. To me this theology is exceptionally intriguing, but I would not want to be locked into a comfort zone of eschatology with it. Or any other. So I scrutinize it here with those considerably knowledgeable of the futuristic approach of last/days things.
  12. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Matthew 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." I'll run with that. So these dead folks while in their grave will see, in spirit, in some sort of way, the second coming of Christ in our future. And that is what Jesus meant when declaring judgment on the Sanhedrin. Who if fact according to the that idea had no idea what Jesus was talking about. Instead of Jesus and the Sanhedrin having in mind what Adam Clark's or Ken Gentry's said about the verse. Especially when considering Jesus and the Sanhedrin understood Daniel 7:13, and what it represented. Daniel 7:13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. Adam Clark "[Thou hast said] That is, I am the Christ, the promised Messiah (see at Matthew 26:25;) and you and this whole nation shall shortly have the fullest proof of it: for hereafter, in a few years, ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, fully invested with absolute dominion, and coming in the clouds of heaven, to execute judgment upon this wicked race. See Matthew 24:30. Our Lord appears to refer to Daniel 7:13. One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, etc." Or on the verse. Kenneth Gentry “The final collapse of Jerusalem and the Temple.. Through these events the Jews were to “see” the Son of Man in His judgment-coming in terrifying cloud-glory: clouds are symbols of divine majesty often entailing stormy destruction. The members of the Sanhedrin and others would experience such in their life times (Matt. 26:64; Mark 9:1; cf. Rev 1:7 with Rev 1:1,3).”
  13. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    It a hard question to answer, and has baffled commentator for centuries, it has been a problem for many to interpret. Unless we leave the sense of the question, and the phrase "Clouds of Heaven" back where it belongs. I.e. the first century. When the high priest and some of the Sanhedrin would be living to witness the episode.
  14. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    Hi William I'll try the question for a second time, since it wasn't answered or misunderstood in my last post.. "All capitalization's will be mine" DOES THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD PROCEED OR COME ABOUT PRIOR TO THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST ON CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. IF IT IS AFTER how will those who tasted death in Matthew 16:28, and those who piereced him in Rev,1:7, and the high priest in Matthew 26:64 see the event. i.e. "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS" "and every eye will see Him" In other words all those folks will be dead and not able to see the cloud coming of our Lord if the resurrection follows that coming. Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the SON OF MAN COMING in his kingdom." Matthew 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Revelation 1:7 Lo, he doth COME WITH THE CLOUDS, and SEE HIM shall every eye, even THOSE WHO DID PIERCE HIM, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATIONS Kind Regards Larry
  15. Larry H

    PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

    If anyone is interested there is an upcoming debate between two preterist concerning the Rapture. Don Preston My proposition: “The Bible teaches that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, i.e. the coming of Christ at His parousia in A.D. 70, was the return of God to man, to dwell forever, reuniting heaven and earth in spiritual fellowship and life, versus a departure or removal of the then living saints from the earth.” Ed Steven The theme by Ed Stevens is "Silence Demands a Rapture" suggesting that the Rapture is a first century event. The reason for that is that since there is no documentation following AD 70, the conclusion is those Christians were taken up in a Rapture. Leaving the preterist camp with a problem most of them don't speak about. https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/2002_stevens_rapture.html I found various articles penned by full preterist concerning, "Expectations Demand a First Century Rapture." One taking the stand on a physical rapture in the first century, the other considering earth and heaven restored in AD 70 preceding the fall in the Garden of Eden .I.e. the temple of God. "The dilemma is by fact the silence following post AD 70. "The sheer volume of these 'expectation statements' which promise that they would 'know' when the parousia occurred, and 'see' it, and experience it, absolutely stunned me." "Then I was reminded again of the fact that not a single post-AD 70 writer, not even Apostle John (who was supposedly still around) or the "apostolic fathers" who supposedly wrote immediately after AD 70, mention the parousia as fulfilled at AD 70." Ed Stevens Contrary to this is "If a physical rapture or resurrection was the hope of salvation, what benefit does that give me who will continue on this earth until death? I know Ed would not dispute the advantages we Christians have today apart from the law, in perfect communion with God the Father, but can he adequately define what purpose there is to life in the here and now, if it is the hereafter that was the hope and focus of Paul and the first century Christians? Can he adequately describe what our benefit is, truly, if the expectation of the first century were in a disappearance? If the rewards that we are to be experiencing are so great, why did they need to be swept away from it?" Nathan DuBois
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