2 hours ago, Josheb said:

rotflmbo! 

1) That's simply delusional. 
2) That's completely off-topic. There's not a single word in this op about the end times or eschatology.
3) That is wholly fallacious. Seeking to dismiss my op-relevant concerns because I hold a given eschatological view is utterly fallacious. 
4) It's also Biblically, theologically, historically and logically incorrect. From the very first sentence to its last the Bible asserts God's dominion over His creation and logic tells us there can be no other sovereign beside the Sovereign Creator. There's is nothing humanistic about those facts. 

5) Making broad over-generalizations is not evidence. You were asked something quite specific. You were asked to show where I have asserted "the humanistic form of Christianity" in this discussion. Blaming statements do not provide any such evidence. 

 

If you cannot back up your own claims then no one has any obligation to respond to the baselessness. 

Once again: baseless accusations do not evidence holiness. It is hypocritical to preach a position and not practice it. Method must reconcile with content. 

looks like I finally touched a nerve..... LOL. 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Perhaps, but that is not what you were asked. You were asked to point out where what I have posted in the discussion of this op is "the humanistic form of Christianity" and you are not providing any evidence for the claims you made.  

I Just gave you three, yet you cannot see those three at work in you. As i said at the outset exposing these assumptions is like trying to get an evolutionist to admit their science is not Objective, and that they begin with certain assumptions that slant their discoveries. 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I completely understand your disdain for the secular humanistic influence on Christianity. I share your concerns. I have posted in a manner communicating that position and that appears to be the problem with you and Peter: you don't know how to address dissent from a non-humanist fellow believer. So I get tossed in with all the other bad guys because it's easier to do that then engage what I actually posted. 

There is no disdain, What you see as an attack against you which you label as "Ad Hominem" arguments is nothing more than simple observation from my end. You shall know a tree by its fruits....

I Know eschatology is not the topic of this post, but it is one of those fruit I have observed, It is a theory based on Humanism Not Depravity by its very nature. If you have an honest bone in your body you will admit this.

God is using a "simple" argument like this to expose a weakness in your position, the question is what is your reaction? Will this cause you to entrench yourself deeper in the error? Or will you actually seek the Truth and grow in the Spirit, and learn to say with the Prophets of old "Lord thou Knowest"?  Will you remain in your own carnal understanding of the fleshly mind? Or will you be Holy Spirit Taught? The latter takes Brokenness, and an utter disdain for your own understanding to accomplish, and is based acknowledging that our carnal mind is a deceiver, and fallen, and in need of being transformed. When I see that brokenness in you is when I will Know you truly are not a Humanist Christian.

Before you respond, May I suggest you go and watch a video compilation by Leonard Ravenhill called "To the Preacher: The Idolatry of Intelligence by Leonard Ravenhill". You might learn something.

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Perhaps you would point out where what I have posted is "the humanistic form of Christianity." 

Or... when finding nothing I posted thusly qualifies you'll acknowledge that fact and address what I actually posted and not attempt another red herring.

I Already have.

1. This thread is caused by Humanism in the church, Not just you particularly. It is prevalent in the post Modern churches of our day, It entered in in the early 1900's with the introductions of new translations using and more heavily relying on the Alexandrian Texts, But also on the assumptions of Humanism that pervaded this era.

2. Your eschatology is based on these humanistic assumptions and in fact Only Humanism can produce this "Kingdom now/ Dominionist" eschatology you espouse. 

3. Your reliance on the carnal mind and the wisdom of men over the Divine revelation. Your faith is in your own capacity to understand, Whereas true saving faith and the peace that comes from it surpasses all understanding and His love is incomprehensible by the mind of man. 

Humanism is all over the modern church, and they have put God into the box of human understanding which is limited and fallen (Carnal). Operating in this realm the church has lost touch with The Spirit, they have quenched the Spirit, and are self deceived by their Understanding of what is Truth. They mistake mental enlightenment with Spiritual insight, and in  so doing Oppose the move of the Spirit as has been seen in this OP.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. ( Romans 8:6-8)

2 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

To tell you the truth, thinking that we can just be summoned to do your bidding, really makes me want to not approve your posts, it certainly doesn't make me want to. Please understand several things.

• Being on MR, is your own doing. Had you managed to stay out of trouble and off the radar, you would not be in this position. Now you are in this situation, and you are likely to stay here, until you have a lengthy streak of not being so combative and reactive in your responses. I know that people get passionate and want to be heard. However, part of the reason we use this system, is exactly because it delays posts from being seen. That helps to break the cycle of personalities yapping at each other like two dogs trying to assert dominance. Here, the one who wants to be first, should seek to be last. 
• There are not many moderators, and we have limited time. We are not going to carve out of our busy lives the time that it takes to babysit. I am sorry, but you'll have to live with that.
• If you find yourself, as many in this thread do, responding to people as personalities, instead of responding to the ideas they present, you are more likely to find yourself engaged in infighting instead of discussion. That is not going to win arguments, impress anyone, nor gain favorable treatment.

While I responded to you dhc, all of the above is applicable to all, especially in threads like this one. Those on Moderator Review, and those in danger of soon being on MR.

People, get a clue, learn from this and avoid trouble. As it is, I think that this thread has more that ran it's course, that was probably true by the 3rd or fourth page, let alone being at 60 pages now. 

In fact, I think it might be a great idea, for those who want to, to make their closing remarks, as I am very tempted to lock the thread, and cannot think of a single reason not to!

The alternative, in my eyes, is to just ban the handful of you that are engaging in your poor behaviors, and any similar subsequent thread that might pop up in the future.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

Just now, Peterlag said:

Many cannot understand what I say because I too like you speak that which is spiritual, which cannot be understood by the carnal mind. I think 1 Corinthians is what we are dealing with here. Those who want to understand that which is spiritual with their carnal or natural old man thinking. I have answered the man so many times, but he cannot hear me. He simply cannot understand because I speak what is from the spirit of Christ.

Amen Peter, 

Your on the right track, Read the 5th verse of the passage quoted above. 

God Bless

Moderators there are now two comments that are hidden on page 59 still, Please rectify, Either with an explanation of why they are not approved or if it they are being overlooked. No Need to post this comment.

15 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Perhaps that's because you don't know what an ad hominem is. An ad hominem occurs when an attack against the person is asserted as a device to dismiss that person's argument. Examples of ad hominem would be:

Peter is a Republican so his arguments about the faith of Christ are worthless.
Peter is a Democrat so his argument about the faith of Christ is worthless.
Peter is an adherent of the holiness sect so his argument is worthless. 

Not once have I ever asserted any such argument! 

Not once have i ever seen you Not attack the person, You did so with @Gideon and you have done so with myself and you are doing so with Peter. Because you see the weakness of your position on this OP you instead try to pick it apart and disgrace it without Interaction. An Ad hominem argument is a sign of weakness of ones own position and an attempt to level the playing field of the debate, Yelling louder and not letting the other side be articulated. This is in fact what SJW's do to silence the facts all the time. "You're a racist, a misogynist, white privaledge" etc. This is all you are doing but on a much more intellectual scale.  You are silencing the debate by nitpicking the one presenting what he himself is in the process of discovering, Meanwhile the one who can explain this to you keeps having their comments blocked on this site by Moderators who are equally complicit in this sort silencing. 

Now if you have any degree of philosophical Knowledge, You will admit that I am right, that you are trying to silence by use of intellectual superiority the voices of those who have less education than you do, and I am telling you you are deceiving yourself, and so did Paul in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3. It is there he presents the Christian alternative to Socratic ignorance, a concept I am sure you are familiar with which leads to in the worldly sense one to be "ever learning but never arriving at the truth" But in Paul's version "to Know nothing save Christ and him Crucified" Which leads to all truth. The carnal mind and wisdom of this world is a deceiver and it will deceive the wisest of men and they will look down on those who are simple in the faith, But it is those simple in the faith that God uses to confound the wise, as he is doing here. Do You understand? What Peter is Posting in this thread is a brilliant and simple observation of a theological distinction that has been missing in the church part of it is the result of a humanistic mindset of the modern translators (No I am not KJV only) But this is a prime example of how the culture of the translators affects the translation of scripture, So When you come at it from a libertarian perspective you are going to have that bias in your perspective, Or if you come from a paternalistic perspective your bias will be paternalistic, A Monarchial perspective is going to have Monarchial overtones, and a culture that is Humanistic as is the culture of modernism then the translations will have a humanistic perspective.

Understanding a distinction such as this gives the church a whole new way of studying the Word of God, Put simply, what Peter is saying here is good hermeneutics and adds a whole diverse field to Biblical study of the cultures of translations and how they affect the translation. He probably does not even see this himself as he is mainly concerned with accuracy of truth he is presenting. 

So In conclusion, what you are in fact doing is trying to silence something that is brilliant and will be a benefit to the church, in arriving at the Truth of the Word of God. Either you do not see this (Ignorance), You do not want to admit this ( too proud to be proven wrong), Or you are Opposing Truth willfully.  

Oh And BTW, for the record, I studied the sociology and Philosophy of Knowledge and could appeal to authority as well, but instead choose not to. You Know, Epistemology. So I fully understand the Socratic method and its flaws therein, Which is what Paul, Knew full well from his studies... Again, take the time to read the first 3 chapters in 1 Corinthians with this in mind, as this will put your carnal mind in its rightful place.  

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I have already answered that question. 

Short version:

1) Because Peter's posting isn't brilliant; it is deeply flawed.

2) Because Peter has posted in a divisive body-of-Christ-dividing manner and with openly dividing intent.

3) Because he is not practicing what he is preaching. 

4) Because the exegesis is poor and woefully lacking.

5) Because the reasoning is poor and woefully lacking. 

6) Because you want Peter to do better and be the best in Christ he can be. 

7) Because you should be consistent and not apply double standards (God hates unequal scales). 

8) Because as a consequence of the above the entire non-conversation proves to be unholy. I can find avoidant non-conversationalists and folks who irrationally abuse scripture and the body of Christ's members for the sake of self-aggrandizement any number of places. 

To me these are all ad hominem arguments against Peter. I Could say the same for anyone who is stuck in the error of humanism and self deception....

A.W. Tozer on self deception:

OF ALL FORMS OF DECEPTION, self-deception is the most deadly, and of all deceived persons the self-deceived are the least likely to discover the fraud.

The reason for this is simple. When a man is deceived by another he is deceived against his will. He is contending against an adversary and is temporarily the victim of the other's guile. Since he expects his foe to take advantage of him he is watchful and quick to suspect trickery. Under such circumstances it is possible to be deceived sometimes and for a short while, but because the victim is resisting he may break out of the trap and escape before too long.

With the self-deceived it is quite different. He is his own enemy and is working a fraud upon himself. He wants to believe the lie and is psychologically conditioned to do so. He does not resist the deceit but collaborates with it against himself. There is no struggle, because the victim surrenders before the fight begins. He enjoys being deceived.

It is altogether possible to practice fraud upon our own souls and go deceived to judgment. "If a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing," said Paul, "he deceiveth himself." With this agrees the inspired James: "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."

The farther we push into the sanctuary the greater becomes the danger of self-deception. The deeply religious man is far more vulnerable than the easygoing fellow who takes his religion lightly. This latter may be deceived but he is not likely to be self-deceived.

Under the pressure of deep spiritual concern, and before his heart has been wholly conquered by the Spirit of God, a man may be driven to try every dodge to save face and preserve a semblance of his old independence. This is always dangerous and if persisted in may prove calamitous.

The fallen heart is by nature idolatrous. There appears to be no limit to which some of us will go to save our idol, while at the same time telling ourselves eagerly that we are trusting in Christ alone. It takes a violent act of renunciation to deliver us from the hidden idol, and since very few modern Christians understand that such an act is necessary, and only a small number of those who know are willing to do, it follows that relatively few professors of the Christian faith these days have ever experienced the painful act of renunciation that frees the heart from idolatry.

Prayer is usually recommended as the panacea for all ills and the key to open every prison door, and it would indeed be difficult to overstate the advantages and privilege of Spirit-inspired prayer. But we must not forget that unless we are wise and watchful prayer itself may become a source of self-deception. There are as many kinds of prayer as there are problems and some kinds are not acceptable to God. The prophets of the Old Testament denounced Israel for trying to hide their iniquities behind their prayers. Christ flatly rejected the prayers of hypocrites and James declared that some religious persons ask and receive not because they ask amiss.

To escape self-deception the praying man must come out clean and honest. He cannot hide in the cross while concealing in his bosom the golden wedge and the goodly Babylonish garment. Grace will save a man but it will not save him and his idol. The blood of Christ will shield the penitent sinner alone, but never the sinner and his idol. Faith will justify the sinner, but it will never justify the sinner and his sin.

No amount of pleading will make evil good or wrong right. A man may engage in a great deal of humble talk before God and get no response because unknown to himself he is using prayer to disguise disobedience. He may lie for hours in sackcloth and ashes with no higher motive than to try to persuade God to come over on his side so he can have his own way. He may grovel before God in a welter of self-accusation, refuse to give up his secret sin and be rejected for his pains. It can happen.

Dr. H. M. Shuman once said to me in private conversation that he believed the one quality God required a man to have before He would save him was honesty. With this I heartily agree. However dishonest the man may have been before, he must put away his duplicity if he is to be accepted before the Lord. Double dealing is unutterably offensive to God. The insincere man has no claim on mercy. For such a man the cross of Christ provides no remedy. Christ can and will save a man who has been dishonest, but He cannot save him while he is dishonest. Absolute candor is an indispensable requisite to salvation.

How may we remain free from self-deception? The answer sounds old-fashioned and dull but here it is: Mean what you say and never say what you do not mean, either to God or man. Think candid thoughts and act forthrightly always, whatever the consequence. To do this will bring the cross into your life and keep you dead to self and to public opinion. And it may get you into trouble sometimes, too. But a guileless mind is a great treasure; it is worth any price.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=173

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

1) I have already answered that question. You are now ignoring the answers already provided. That is a problem, and it's a problem common to those asserting this misbegotten position. When confronted with the flaws commonly contained within this position (which can be argued scripturally, logically, and in a unifying manner but was not done so here) the common response is a failure to accept personal responsibility for one's own errors, being accusatory instead, the defense of like-minded people even when they post unscripturally and in violation of reason and the tou. 

That's why. 

2) Because Peter's posting isn't brilliant, it isn't a brilliant assessment of scripture, and there isn't any proof his misbegotten views have pervaded the Church. He has ignored very legitimate content openly and repeatedly. The fact that a plethora of diverse believers have responded with cogent content alone shows this claim of pervasiveness is flawed at best and completely errant at worst. 

3) Because Peter has posted in a divisive body-of-Christ-dividing manner. The Bible calls those who unjustly divide the body "devils"! The word means accuser or slanderer and he is it. In every single op in which he and I have traded posts I have asked him about this specifically and in every single op in which we have traded posts he's ignored it. 

4) Because he is not practicing what he is preaching. 

That is why he should be oyveyyed by all, including those whose position he betrays. I have not expressed a single unkind word about the holiness sectarian view. Not one. If you think so then you are mistaken and should go back and re-read what I've posted and do so again and again until you 1) let go of the bias and 2) understand what's posted in its own right. 

If a Calvinist posts poorly I will stand right beside him/her as a Calvinist and as patiently, kindly, forbearingly, hopefully provide what correction I can and I will do so trusting the same Spirit that is at work in me is at work in him/her. 

That's why you should oyvey his posts. The fact that you haven't is a problem. The fact that you hold out two different standards is a problem. The fact that you don't know why is a problem. 

And now everyone reading these posts really knows what you're about. You're an ideologue, an ideologue with an allegiance to holiness sectarianism that is greater than that to Christ, his word, and his body. The evidence in these posts proves it and the next words I read are likely to be ad hominem, further confirming what I have just posted above. 

 

 

A great deal of patience, kindness, forbearance, hope, and trust was extended Peter in this op and he crapped on it. There isn't any reason we could not have discussed the matters broached here but he didn't, even after being asked to do so. You think "oy vey" is a cogent response. It is not. A number of very real and valid concerns have been brought to bear on this op, such as the fact the nine verses quoted in this op were proof-texted (always an error that should never be practiced if holiness is the goal), and the fact the nine verses must be read as explained by the rest of scripture in its entirety but this too was entirely ignored AND according to Peter in his own words it was ignored out of fear. And you think "oy vey" is a cogent response. 

It is not. 

 

 

Scripture directs us to overlook offenses. Much of what Peter has posted since his coming in August has been overlooked. We've practiced scripture, we've practiced the faith of Christ and been ignored and judged for that obedience. Scripture directs us to bring more serious offences to the offender and we have done that too, only to be ignored and judged. We have practiced the faith of Christ as Christ taught it and been ignored and judged. Scripture directs us to take the matter to others as witnesses and we have done that too, with a plethora of fellows believers bringing very legitimate concerns to bear on they misguided content and practice. We practiced the faith of Christ and got ignored and oyveyyed for doing so. 

 

There is nothing holy about it. It is instead quite disobedient and thereby unholy. There isn't a single reason why the concerns I, David, and other broached should be ignored or why we should be vilified for pointing out areas warranting change. 

That is why you should express dismay consistently, including those who share your theology - because you want him as a fellow member of Christ's body to post as impeccably as he can and he is not doing so. 

Remember: you asked.

“It is easier to fool the people, than to convince them they have been fooled." Mark Twain.

As I wrote earlier on here, those who are fully immersed in the humanistic form of Christianity trying to convince them that their assumptions are off is like trying to convince an evolutionist that their assumptions are off. Self deception is the hardest deception to recognize and overcome, because at its heart is a lie you see as the truth. 

As for unity there will be both a false unity and a true unity of the Spirit. The false unity is built on ecumenism and tolerance, but the true Unity is Built on the fulness of Christ. Where he is the head , the all in all of the church, which is what your humanistic Christianity cannot grasp because its faith is in the human carnal mind and human mental capacities. All one has to do is carefully read the first 3 chapters of 1 corinthians to see this, But yet humanism is incapable of  dealing with the deception of the mind. 

You sit here and lump me into a camp (holiness) when you do not know me, others here have accused me of legalism, others of preaching lawlessness, others of being a Calvinist, others of being an Arminian, I have been accused of being a catholic for my positions on who are saints, I am accused of being charismatic by fundamentalist and a fundamentalist by charismatics, I am accused of being a cessationist by some and a continuist by others, But one who is In Christ is all of these things for they are living in the fulness of Christ.

It is you who are "labelling" people here, putting them into the box of your own understanding instead of seeing them as complex Human beings with diverse beliefs. It is you who are dividing them in your mind into rational units that you can comprehend them with your carnal mind. Is this an ad hominem response Or an accurate one. 

To the one who is self deceived they will see any rebuke, correction or otherwise as an ad hominem attack against themselves, Or as the SJW's do "cry victim" even when they are in the wrong. 

what @Peterlag has conveyed in this post Is so much bigger than what you are able to see, because you like many in Christendom are being self deceived by the lies of Humanism, and it is this humanism that forms other parts of your understanding such as your dominionist/ kingdom now eschatology. This problem of Humanism in the church is far bigger than just you, and pervades much of the institutional church of our day, and for this reason God is raising up a new Priesthood as he did in Israel, a Holy remnant, a silent revival, a treasured possession of his while the old goes on into the harlotry of humanism.... This has all been predicted in Prophecy and is coming to pass right now.

The question for any here who read this is where does your faith stand? Is it based in humanism or based in the character and authority of Jesus Christ Who is faithful? Remember this is subtile, and the devil is known for the subtility of his deception.... Work out your faith with fear and trembling.

8 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Nice... Real Nice.

"it cannot be grasped by the carnal mind and therein lies the problem..."

Can the mods please post my "hidden" comment on page 57. There is nothing offensive in that comment and will help this conversation along towards the truth of what is being shown here...

55 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Npo, Peter is either not being fully forthcoming or is unaware of the logical consequences of his posts. He plainly stated we can be sinless and should not be sinning. That's not holiness. That's not sectarian holiness and that's not theological holiness (the word "holy" simply means separate). 

The fact remains he is not addressing valid concerns, he has made some outright mistakes and refused to correct the despite repeated requests to do so, he uses scripture selectively, and openly attacks others without any basis or evidence... 

... and you do not oyvey him. 

Those kinds of errors are not dependent upon being an adherent of holiness or not. Sin is sin and you are not helping him when you don't treat it accordingly. There's nothing holy about that. If he cannot receive correction from those he mistakenly imagines are  outsiders then perhaps he'll respond to his fellow holiness adherents and if he does not then you and I both know all the more the problem is very real. You've done him a disservice by favoring him merely because he's into holiness. You done me and the rest of us a disservice because the errors Peter's posted were not treated objectively. 

You cannot possibly think it is okay for any poster to insinuate another poster is ignorant. There is nothing holy about such practice. 

Why would I "oyvey" Peter for posting what Is a brilliant assessment of a scriptural error that has pervaded the modern church, that is leading a majority of Christians down the wrong path of Humanism as opposed to true faith? 

To the contrary I will praise him for it, just as @Gideon was doing the same and others who have been run off this site by those humanistic easy-believism Christians. Is this me or Peter or Gideon being Harsh and mean spirited? No It is us trying to obey scriptures to reprove rebuke and exhort those who are falling in all love for them. The Faith of the church has morphed from the faith OF Jesus to the faith IN Jesus which is the Humanistic translation of these verses. The focus has gone from what Jesus Does and resting in His promises to what we do and as a result the church is largely powerless and dying in narcissism, a look at me and how much better i am attitude all the while they are wretched miserable pitiable naked and Blind... the self delusion of the Laodicean church. It is the very mind that you hold in such high esteem, the carnal mind that is leading to that delusion of prosperity and the lack of need of anything. 

Holiness is learning to rest in the provision of God, learning to trust fully in what he has done, Not as a license to sin but as a desire to be with him fully and whole heartedly.... to learn to love the Lord your God with all your heart. Read the following from Tozer and compare it to modern Christianity.... This in a nutshell is the faith OF Jesus. Compare this to the modern churches view where Jesus is something we mold into our image and you will see the difference. 

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

He's elevated himself above others, been admonished by the mods against promoting his own site in violation of the tou, and preached sinless perfectionism. Great kindness, patience, forbearance, and hope have been extended him by many posters in an effort to engage him for the sake of his edification within the context of Pr. 27:17 (which is what Christian discussion boards are all about, yes?) and 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Are you aware of his pattern?

He is preaching what is known as holiness, Not sinless perfectionism. This site has no tolerance for this being taught, and My Posts too are being moderated because of this. @Gideon as well, as others have also been expelled for preaching this and are being silenced here, and in fact i have a comment that is not being approved on the previous page about this as well, which would explain the "oy veys", which is that You, and others here are unable to see what the point of the post is because of a humanistic bias in your assumptions that you carry in your theology, as do the moderators here. 

There is a pattern of attack here to these sorts of posters who are trying to show you what your theology may be missing, but none want to hear of it, But those with ears do hear. This is the silent revival of the end times holy remnant, the saints of the next dispensation, The Overcomers, This comes from all backgrounds, But is neither protestant nor catholic nor charismatic, But are those who have come to the fulness of Christ from all of those backgrounds. The Question is are you one? Or are you still arguing with the carnal mind? In other words, you are seeing a move of the Holy Ghost in your midst, and are opposing it because your mind cannot grasp it, But it cannot be grasped by the carnal mind and therein lies the problem..... yet this move of the Spirit is very Logical and based in Truth, and the Word of God. What did God do when the priesthood of Old Israel became corrupt? He raised up a new priesthood, the others just died off. He is doing the same with the institutional church of our day which has become corrupt. 

Between legalism and lawlessness, Satan's two towers, there is the way of Holiness.   

3 hours ago, Peterlag said:

I answered all who were able to make any sense concerning biblical data. It's the religions that folks believe that makes no sense to biblical data that I cannot understand.

My conclusion...

Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Could it be possible that because God has made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ... that it's therefore the Christ who has the authority to use the power of God? Could it then be done by his faith (the faith of Jesus Christ) because it's he who has been given the authority? If this is true, then it would be by the authority of the risen Christ Jesus, and therefore by his believing that the power of God is brought to pass.

Peter,

God Bless you for taking this stand, Few people in Christian circles see this because they are so caught up in the Humanistic view of Christianity, It is like trying to tell an evolutionists their assumptions are off and their science is not objective, it is so ingrained into how they think. 

Then there are those who do not want this message getting out, so that those in the easy believism camp will begin to workout their faith with fear and trembling, and instead want to live in their comfortable state. There have been others here who have tried to show this and continually get run off of this site for doing so, which is the testimony of this site. It is for the testimony of Jesus which you are sharing in. When We are weak, HE is strong. 

I wrote the following elsewhere On a different topic which pertains to this topic, hope it helps and blesses you.

Trusting in the Lord and His Providence is not like crossing your fingers, If You see it that way you have a powerless faith, and serve a powerless God.
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Cor. 12:9-10)

It is this sort of faith, which is required to enter His resting place, It is this kind of Trust that allows us to face giants in the land and allows us to enter his promised Land. It is this kind of faith that overcomes Not only the evils of persecution, But also the seductions of this world, The Lust of the flesh, the Lust of the eyes and the pride of Life. (1 John 2:16). It is this kind of faith, that allows us to overcome as Christ overcame (Rev. 3:21)

Everything else falls short, I encourage you to find His strength made perfect in you, By Learning to fully trust in his providence. Partial belief is a stench in the nostrils of God, this being the very definition of complacency in The Christian, and the very sin of Laodiceans.... We are all Laodiceans... So do you trust your own strength, Or His strength? If the former, you are standing on sinking sand.
 

1. My hope is built on nothing less
   Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
   I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
   But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
   • Refrain:
     On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
     All other ground is sinking sand,
     All other ground is sinking sand.
2. When darkness veils His lovely face,
   I rest on His unchanging grace;
   In every high and stormy gale,
   My anchor holds within the veil.
3. His oath, His covenant, His blood
   Support me in the whelming flood;
   When all around my soul gives way,
   He then is all my hope and stay.
4. When He shall come with trumpet sound,
   Oh, may I then in Him be found;
   Dressed in His righteousness alone,
   Faultless to stand before the throne.

11 hours ago, Peterlag said:

A man’s name meant more than just a label of identification in the days when Jesus Christ walked the earth. The man’s name carried the characteristics that the name implied, such as authority, character, rank and power—everything the name covers as expressing his attributes. A man’s name not only revealed his character or authority on whose behalf one would act, but it also was the identity of how one was known, expressing the essential nature of its bearer, the personality and expression of the man’s innermost being. To be called by the name of a person would denote the standing in a peculiar relation to him, or being his property. To speak or act in a person’s name would be to act by his authority, and thereby to represent or participate in his revealed nature.

Names in the Bible were considered to identify and describe the very being and function of their bearers because a man’s name represented him wholly. A person could exercise influence over a man by using his name because one would need to conform to his essential nature as expressed in his name. The Old Testament prophets spoke in the name of the Lord with all His authority and power. Jesus claimed to have come in his Father’s name, meaning as the Father’s representative. We have only one life to live and give our utmost for His Highest. Do we dare to live in the powerful and victorious name of our living Lord and savior Jesus Christ, calling upon his name to invoke him on the basis of his revealed nature and character?

So Much Truth Here, Amen. Without Him We can do nothing (John 15:5) 

What we are seeing here opposing this truth is simply humanism, faith misplaced in human achievement and strength. The contrast can be stated as follows: "I Will, I Will, I will...." (Isa. 14:12-14) vs "Christ Is all in all" (Eph.  1:23)

But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. (John 15:21)

5 hours ago, Peterlag said:

We are on the same page since I understand everything you just wrote except the Revelation chapter 1 part. May I ask for a verse to go along with that chapter?

Read verses 1-9, Particularly 2, 5, and 9. 

In Particular compare how verse 9 has been altered from the KJV to the NIV re: the topic of this post. My personal belief is that the modern translators had this cultural bias (humanism) creep in to their translations, and that it was not a conscious attempt to bring in heresy, But a cultural one. Living in a monarchial world tends to lean towards an "authoritative text" translation, Living in a democratic world tends to lean towards a humanistic text and less authoritative. Which is the right "culture", in which the original text was written in, or closer to it is, is the Monarchial culture. Hence the KJV is more accurate in its interpretation. In Questions like this, this is why I put more value in the KJV. Even the NKJV gets these things wrong, and such is the subtilty of the serpent. The culture bias at the time of translation reflects in that translation. 

I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. (NIV)

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)

15 hours ago, teddyv said:

Can you explain what you mean by 'gainsaying" in this paragraph? It does not seem to work with what is the usual definition of that word and it's use.

Gainsaying scripturally is the opposition to God appointed leadership ( Gainsaying of Korah) church leadership today is a career choice as opposed to a calling to service, so the Gainsayer will elevate themselves to the position of Power in the church, and boast of their credentials such their educational accomplishment for the purpose of self aggrandizement. All gainsaying does this, and like the Pharisees Jesus spoke of they like the chief seats in the synagogues and all the attention drawn to themselves. 

A True minister called of God does not need to gainsay in this respect, they are not usurpers seeking power But their authority is granted and empowered by God. The internet is full of these sorts of self exalted ones in this modern humanist Christian mindset. 

Good question which needed further clarification. Jude 1:11 couples gainsaying with Balaam's error, which is to do so for reward, so I lump them together as intricately tied to one another. 

28 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I am not happy with any post not just your when someone talks about peope they have never met them, interview them, follow them in their steps and struggles, not knowing their intimate relationship with Jesus and how much he loves them. 

Without acknowledging their contribution to the Gospel, and not waiting to grow in perfection, but as they were gave them selves and their time to the service...to the benefit of those who are heirs of the richness of Heavenly blessings in Jesus Christ...

A lot of them being rich in their minds they gave up earthly carriers to become Servants of the Gospel and encouraging guiding and comforting and empowering the children of Jesus Christ it was their priority...

Some found themselves within church organizations with authoritarian policies but that did not deterred them to dedicate them selves and comfort those in the faith of Jesus Christ without prejudice to doctrinal adherence...

What we are seeing with the Humanist Christian model is a form of gainsaying in the church, even with those who serve (Especially with those who serve) A minister is the position of a servant, a slave of righteousness as Paul calls it, not a career choice to make a living at. Gainsaying not only involves financial gain but also personal fame and notoriety, They like the best seats in the synagogue, and to be called rabbi etc. (see Matthew 23) 

That is the perversion humanism brings, and the Jews of Jesus day were no exception. Humanism is like a serpent that creeps into safe place, and perverts that place. What was once based on Christ Jesus alone, is now based on Jesus Plus me.... My works add to salvation, when salvation is by grace alone. Faith is merely receiving that Grace, It is not our belief or how much we believe in him, but how much He is in us, whether He is LORD, or merely savior. Yes there is a progression in this, Yes we receive the truth for selfish reasons (eternal life) But we eventually reach the fulness of Christ in our walk, if we do not we are stuck in complacency which is the sin of the Laodicean church, thinking they are rich and in need of Nothing. Laodicea is still a "church", and her members are Christians, But they are stuck there, Like an eaglet who has yet to learn to fly. They may flap their wings hard, and squawk loudly, But until they learn to trust the thermals to lift them they will struggle to soar. The Faith of Christ is that thing we trust in to lift us up, Not our strength. When we are weak, He is strong. An Eagle when he is soring barely has to flap his wings. When We actually come to see this is when we submit to Him. (Read James 4:1-10). 

Instead of Praying to "strengthen my faith" we should pray "help me to put to death the old man and put on the new" We do this by receiving the testimony of Jesus Christ, and the faith of Christ. When the Laodicean church begins to see this is when the end time revival will begin and the outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits will begin. This comes not from our strength and will, but from His work in us. He is the potter we are the clay, Christian humanism says, "I am the potter and I will mold myself as I see fit". Most people fear the loss of this "control" in their lives, But submitting to the authority of God is the most liberating thing a person can do, and one little preposition can change the entire meaning of the word of God from Christianity to Humanism. 

Such is the subtilty of the serpent, and the deception and denial of this end time church, a form of self deception. When a person begins to see this and tries to explain it as Peter has here, notice all the opposition that arises.... This is because most serve themselves rather than God. Hard words to hear, But those who have ears will hear. The Singleness or simplicity in Christ Jesus stands in contradiction to the subtilty of the serpent. 

This is what the old Hymns have that the new ones have lost, for example:

1. My hope is built on nothing less
   Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
   I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
   But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
   • Refrain:
     On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
     All other ground is sinking sand,
     All other ground is sinking sand.
2. When darkness veils His lovely face,
   I rest on His unchanging grace;
   In every high and stormy gale,
   My anchor holds within the veil.
3. His oath, His covenant, His blood
   Support me in the whelming flood;
   When all around my soul gives way,
   He then is all my hope and stay.
4. When He shall come with trumpet sound,
   Oh, may I then in Him be found;
   Dressed in His righteousness alone,
   Faultless to stand before the throne.

Compared to this....

Make way through the waters
Walk me through the fire
Do what You are famous for
What You are famous for
Shut the mouths of lions
Bring dry bones to life and
Do what You are famous for
What You are famous for
I believe in You, God
I believe in You

Do You see the difference between these hymns? One is from the mid 19th century, the other is contemporary. The contemporary one is saying if "I believe, therefore, He will do", the old hymn says "what He has done, is the basis of my faith".  The Latter makes God a servant of your belief, while the other makes us the servant because of what he has done. To Me this is a huge difference. 
 

4 hours ago, Peterlag said:

If you would post one little tiny bit of how Revelations ties into the faith of Christ.

Its Right there in chapter 1, It is referred to as the "testimony of Jesus Christ", and him being the "faithful and true witness" Which is also part of the introduction given to the church of Laodicea. It is the "Patience of Jesus Christ". These are all concepts expressed in Revelation.

`Most in Christian circles cannot see this, Because of this postmodern humanistic bias in their understanding, and when you try to explain this in a loving way they are offended by it because they value their own contribution to faith, and what they do not realize is their faith is in their own understanding and will, and not in the person of Jesus Christ. Which goes right back to Galatians 2:20 they have not crucified the flesh, instead they hold onto this concept of the carnal mind, instead of the mind of Christ. 

For me personally, reading and studying the Book of revelation led directly to being able to put to death the carnal mind and finally saying with the Prophet Ezekiel "Lord, thou knowest" Up until that point I thought i could figure it out, Until we reach that point we are unteachable, because we by our own strength and will resist and oppose the Truth. In so doing we oppose Jesus who is the truth (John 14:6) and the Spirit of Truth, (John 16:13) who will show us all things.     

20 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Are you saying you see it too? That it's by his faith and not mine that brought about salvation for the whole world?

Yes. This is what the ultimate goal of the doctrine of rest is all about. This is what coming to the fulness of Christ is all about, and what the Post modern church has lost. Quite simply this is the difference between humanism in the guise of Christianity and true Christianity. Without Him we can do nothing, its as simple as amazing Grace, and resting in that Grace. 

Many will use the doctrine of rest as an excuse for complacency, But when rightly understood there is continual growth For those who find this rest. The Faith Of Christ is the key to this, as His faith is what creates the growth in us, All we have to do is surrender to Him Fully, let him be the Pilot, Not the co-pilot. Our strength and will is what interferes with His work in us. When we are out of the way, he can bring that growth and sanctification. 

Christian humanism says Christ plus me, true Christianity says Christ is my all in all. The denial of this need is the very heart of the problem in this Laodicean age and many are living in this denial of their need as outlined in that letter. Whether you agree with my understanding of this being the Laodicean church age and we all being part of it, or not, what you are glimpsing is the heart of this self deception, which ties into the strong delusion of the end times. I read you are not "into" Revelation here, perhaps this will inspire you to do so. I Encourage you to study this and let the Holy Ghost teach you, if you approach it without any preconceptions and let him teach you, there is great blessing in studying this Book. If you start with a preconceived theory such as pre-trib rapture or this book is only for Jews, you will miss out on the blessing and simplicity of it and be overwhelmed by the complexity. The Simple key in this is understanding that there is no eighth church age, as the church grows into the fulness of Christ, or in some cases are exposed as the tares they are. This is why so many  have a hard time understanding and seeing what you are seeing.... 

God has given you eyes to see this (The eyesalve of God), now seek out the Gold refined in the fire. God Bless.

On 10/3/2020 at 10:31 PM, Peterlag said:

It's totally impossible that my little human trust in Jesus could bring about the righteousness of God.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

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It's totally impossible that my believing in Jesus Christ could cause me to be justified.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

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Amen!, The Simplicity vs. the complexity. 

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor. 11:3)

The adjective of this noun simplicity is the word used for singleness, as in the following passage.

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! (matt. 6:22-23)

For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. (2 Cor. 1;12)

Complexity of mind is never the answer, The Grace of God is simple, Unmerited favor, We can do Nothing apart from the grace of God. But by His Grace and through HIS faith we can move mountains.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:5)

As the Old Hymn puts it," I Need thee every hour"

1. I need Thee every hour, most gracious Lord;
   No tender voice like Thine can peace afford.
   • Refrain:
     I need Thee, oh, I need Thee;
     Every hour I need Thee;
     Oh, bless me now, my Savior,
     I come to Thee.
2. I need Thee every hour, stay Thou nearby;
   Temptations lose their pow’r when Thou art nigh.
3. I need Thee every hour, in joy or pain;
   Come quickly and abide, or life is vain.
4. I need Thee every hour; teach me Thy will;
   And Thy rich promises in me fulfill.
5. I need Thee every hour, most Holy One;
   Oh, make me Thine indeed, Thou blessed Son.

2 hours ago, Peterlag said:

It would be great if you listed all the examples pertaining to the faith of Christ. I only found these...

Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:20, Acts 3:16 and Acts 26:18. Is it faith of or faith in?

Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

There is a part one which is summed up in the beginning of this video that i am not linking here. False victimhood divides instead of unites, enfeebles instead of empowers, and keeps people down, particularly black people in this country. In Opposing racism, they are only perpetuating it. We are seeing this in the churches as well and on forums where people cry victim all the time.

Shots have been fired and people killed in Kenosha Wisconsin, this is what happens when the thin blue line breaks down and the people take to defending themselves.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/08/breaking-shots-fired-kenosha-one-person-shot-head-looting-car-shop-graphic-video/

There are no "safe spaces" in war, there is no social justice, Only Bloodshed and mayhem and death and tears. War is not a game it is real, and when pushed to the brink men and woman will defend themselves and their property irregardless of life being lost, and this is the eventual demise of culture, and what happens when dialogue is opposed as the left has been doing on the universities. this is their plan, this is what they want, a revolution, an uprising so as to tear into the fabric of culture and get it to descend into chaos. Most of the public has maintained their sanity and refrained from acts of violence to counter these communist infiltrators, but this will be harder and harder to maintain as we descend into chaos. 

But this is only half of it. when America descends into civil war, she is at her weakest, and this is when the Chinese or the Russians, and or other forces will strike. All of this began on the universities, when speech was silenced, and dialog was not allowed to occur because some were offended by the facts, and the truth. I Hope and pray the churches and Christians take note of this, because these same problems are endemic in the churches themselves. Brother against brother, Parents against children, exactly as Christ spoke: And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (Luke 21:16)

Lest we think the churches are immune to the problems in culture, all one has to do is compare the divorce rates among church members and the country as a whole. they are virtually identical, and even in the churches, dialog is being shutdown for offending people for speaking the truth. We are at the doorstep of prophetic fulfillments, and a great majority of the church does not see that the problems in society stem from the problems in the church, she sees no need for repentance, and neither does the world see the need to so, the church has lost its saltiness and having no savor is no good for anything, yet she is rich and increased with Goods. She is in denial of her need for Jesus, and has locked him out and the Truth which he brings and speaks to the world through the church. The Kingdom the dominionists are preaching is a kingdom of lies and one built with hay and stubble, and the fires are coming to burn them to the ground, But those who have built with Gold refined in the fire will stand, For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 4:1-3)

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. (1 Peter 4:17)  

47 minutes ago, Amigo42 said:

Do you all as Christians feel that support of the confederate flags and monuments is the same as building memorials to honor the 9-11 hijackers in the US?  It can be stated that honoring confederate generals who literally tried to destroy this country and caused the deaths of 600,000 people because of their rebellion is much worse. 

I wonder if they will demand the removal of statues of Margaret Sanger, an avowed racist and the abortion clinics founded in her honor? Or how about Albert Pike, a confederate soldier and freemason? Or Charles Darwin who spoke of "favored races" and called Blacks lesser humans, and arguably led to Hitler's Aryan teachings of superior races that led to the genocide of Jews? 

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (KJV)

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (ESV)

So Long as we are being sanctified, we remain perfected By His imputed righteousness. So long as we are growing In Christ we remain in his will. Peter writes: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:8-9)

So the question is, is your faith being sanctified? Are you growing in the faith or are you stuck in limbo and complacency? This is why God hates complacency so much and will spue out those who are living in lukewarmness. This is why we must hunger and thirst for righteousness. This why we must Grow into the fulness of Christ. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph. 4:13) The less of "ME" and the MORE OF "HIM" that is in me, the more we reach the measure and stature of Christ. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

3 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

So does the Lord teach us how to stay out of trouble, or does he just swoop down every time we get in trouble and fix things for us?

This is from a short video I watched, very profound words to answer your question.

"I asked for Wisdom and God gave me problems to solve. I asked for prosperity and God gave me brains and strength to work. I asked for courage and God gave me danger to overcome. I asked for Love and God gave me troubled people to help. I Asked for favors and God gave me opportunities.... I Got everything I wanted, Just not the way I expected, My prayers were answered perfectly, and I give thanks." 

12 hours ago, TheBlade said:

I like where you are going with this. There are so many layers to this. Who was Jesus? Are not you a joint heir with Him? Just what does that mean to you? Christ alone is a friend, a brother, a savior  our God.

Christ said to the 12.. no longer do I call you servants but friends. So praise God yes lead by the sweet holy Spirit.. God leading getting all the glory and praise. God demands all the glory and praise and no man will glory in His presence.

Its only man that would see God sitting next to him as a co-pilot

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1-2)

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. (2 Cor. 4:7-12)

When Your mind is transformed, and renewed, You are no longer at the controls, instead he is. and all glory goes to Him for what he does in you and through you. When You start to live this way the persecution will begin in earnest, but so too will the assurance that life of Jesus is being manifest in our body. Comfortable Christianism does not want this neither does it understand this, but this was it means to be Christlike. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8:28-29)

All of this defies the wisdom of man, hence the renewal of the mind. for the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of man. ( 1 cor. 1:25) Christianism does not want to carry a cross, for it is foolishness to them, But that is the Gospel we are called to preach... For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor. 1:18)