DeighAnn

that tribulation, IS the sun/sackcloth and moon/blood, Satan cast to the earth. 24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Do you ever go and check out things in the original language? What is the current subject/timing given in Rev 14? You say it is a harvest at the 6th seal, where do you get that? 737. arti Strong's Lexicon arti: Now, at this moment, just now Original Word: ἄρτι Part of Speech: Adverb Transliteration: arti Pronunciation: AR-tee Phonetic Spelling: (ar'-tee) Definition: Now, at this moment, just now Meaning: now, just now, at this moment. Word Origin: Derived from a root word meaning "to fit" or "to join," indicating a sense of immediacy or present time. Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "arti," the concept of immediacy or present time can be found in Hebrew words like עַתָּה (attah, Strong's H6258), which also means "now" or "at this time." Usage: The Greek adverb "ἄρτι" (arti) is used to denote the present moment or a very recent past. It emphasizes immediacy and is often translated as "now" or "at this moment" in English. It is used to convey a sense of urgency or current relevance in the context of the passage. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, time was often perceived in terms of immediate and practical concerns rather than abstract or linear concepts. The use of "arti" reflects this cultural understanding by focusing on the present moment's significance. In the New Testament, this term is used to highlight the immediacy of an action or event, often in the context of Jesus' teachings or the apostles' writings. HELPS Word-studies 737 árti (an adverb) – now (this instant); here-and-now; exactly now, in the immediate present. 737 /árti ("now") refers to the present as the time to act – i.e. to live "in the now" (= "being alive unto God" now, cf. Ro 6:11). In case you forgot.... 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. The Harvest of the Earth 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. What it SHOULD remind you of is.... 8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. It is the DEATH in SERVICE to GOD that is BLESSED, not a pre trib harvest.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. The Dragon Persecutes the Woman 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

REV 19 LET'S look at THE TIMING TOGETHER 1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. ME, I see this as being AFTER THE TRIB, not before. The saints under the altar HAVE HAD THEIR BLOODSHED AVENGED, so the 'little season' they were told to WAIT FOR has taken place. 3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, HOW is this PRE - TRIB in anyones mind. This is post trib, post wrath of God, post old heaven and old earth. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. The fine linen is the righteous ACTS of the saints is. She is arrayed in the RIGHTEOUS ACTS. She ISN'T THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS. SHE ISN'T THE CHURCH.... .9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. BLESSED are they which are called unto THE MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb. We are called to the SUPPER, we are not the 'bride' of the Lamb. And IF we WERE, it wouldn't be SOME PORTION of the body only. Surely you can't believe that GOD would have people on earth going through the tribulation/wrath/deception of Satan and a WEDDING taking place in heaven. I can't think of any words that would ever make that RIGHTEOUS in any way to me. Where is it written 'the church' is pre trib raptured? NO WHERE. Where is it written Jesus LEAVES AND RETURNS TO HEAVEN? NO WHERE Where is it written the church is 'judged' and translated as A GROUP? Doesn't every message to the churches end with HE WHO OVERCOMES? Where is it written the body is divided? Where is it written Jesus LEAVES THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER BEFORE the war in heaven has ENDED? The church CAN'T be raptured before 'ENEMIES made footstool' can it? So can't be BEFORE SATAN is cast to earth and Satan cast to earth is ALREADY after PRE TRIB. The logistics just don't work. Going to have to go to the GOD CAN DO ANYTHING, He is omnipresent...He knows everything...excuse everyone uses when their theories don't work out. THAT isn't how the BOOK is written. This is what happens when you do not follow Him in the likeness of His resurrection, as that makes you a part of 'the DEAD' who wait for His return when you are told you will NEVER DIE...because then you miss the difference between the Judgment seat of Christ (for those who never die) and the GWTJ (for the dead who ONLY WILL rise at His return) I know I KNOW, I am all lost and confused and all the rest but until you can show it is, as it is written, it is nothing more than 'a private interpretation' and I am destined to remain so. See we'll just have to wait until.... 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1538. hekastos Strong's Lexicon hekastos: each, every, every one Original Word: ἕκαστος Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: hekastos Pronunciation: heh-KAS-tos Phonetic Spelling: (hek'-as-tos) Definition: each, every, every one Meaning: each (of more than two), every one. Word Origin: Derived from a presumed compound of ἕκας (hekás, meaning "far off") and a derivative of ἵστημι (hístēmi, meaning "to stand"). Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "hekastos," similar concepts of individuality and personal responsibility can be found in Hebrew words like אִישׁ (ish, meaning "man" or "individual") and כָּל (kol, meaning "all" or "every"). Usage: The Greek word "hekastos" is an adjective used to denote individuality within a group, emphasizing each member or part of a whole. It is often translated as "each" or "every" in English. In the New Testament, it is used to highlight personal responsibility, individual actions, or the distinctiveness of each person or thing within a collective. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of individuality was often overshadowed by the collective identity of family, tribe, or city-state. However, the New Testament's use of "hekastos" underscores the importance of personal responsibility and individual faith within the Christian community. This reflects a shift towards recognizing the value and accountability of each person before God, a theme that resonates with the biblical emphasis on personal relationship with God and individual moral agency. HELPS Word-studies 1538 hékastos (from hekas, "separate") – each (individual) unit viewed distinctly, i.e. as opposed to "severally" (as a group).

Word it how you will, add to it what you may, the reality is it is AT the 2nd Advent and not before that the alive are changed and gathered... There is a letter, 1 Thess, in which Paul is speaking about what happens to our loved ones and when we will see them again.... 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. As straight a line as possible. We fall asleep, rise/resurrect just as did Jesus, then we are brought back with Him when He returns. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. To be sure, when the Lord returns, we are returning with Him. The LAST Generation, living here on earth, doesn't STOP, impede, nor prevent that process. Info ABOUT THE LORDS RETURN follows 16For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and 'bring with Him' those who 'follow Him', who were resurrected in their spiritual body (at the death of their flesh and blood body), they have become like angels, neither taking nor giving in marriage and the dead in Christ shall rise first: those who didn't 'resurrect' and go up to the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, but went to the other side of the gulf/hell/hades...the 'nations' that Christ will rule over for 1000 years while Satan is bound, WHILE those who returned with Him will sit upon the thrones along with... 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. We know at that point His foot will touch down upon the Mount, and 'THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE..' goes into effect where He will sit upon the throne of David, at that point having LEFT the right hand of GOD in heaven... Some people make that say all sorts of things it doesn't say, I don't. And apparently that has been happening for a long time and we know that by this 'beseeching' 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, SCHOOL IS IN SESSION 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. It wasn't close back then, there were things that had to take place. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. STRAIGHT LINE AGAIN - the day of Christ's coming, the day when we are 'gathered' to Him is AFTER the deception. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. NOW you know why WE CAN'T BE GATHERED BEFORE that time. Deception has to come upon the world, Satan has to sit where he shouldn't, and ONLY THEN can Christ LEAVE THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD and return to the earth. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. DECEPTION was ALREADY going forth but GOD is letting His plan go forth, and not until the return of CHRIST will Satan be 'taken out of the way' or cast into the abyss for 1000 years. SO WHAT WITHHOLDS CHRISTS RETURN AND OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM? The revealing of the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION/Satan/the devil/the dragon/the one in charge of the beast kingdom etc.. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Satan is revealed THROUGH the return of the Lord, the BRIGHTNESS of His coming, a BRIGHTNESS whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: And in case you missed WHEN we will be gathered to the Lord for the Lords Day, He gives it to us ONE LAST TIME, just to be sure that IF WE FALL INTO DECEPTION, it is of our own free will... 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Could ANY of this be written in THIS MANNER, using these words, these 'tenses' these laws of language if indeed HE HAD COME PREVIOUSLY? NO, if He had come previously, the WAY in which this is written, would be a lie.

Yes, I have. And I went to Rev 18 to CHECK ON THE TIMING. Did you? Rev 18 ENDS WITH 20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rejoicing in Heaven 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. The Marriage of the Lamb 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. THIS clearly shows us the marriage of the Lamb IS AFTER the and not before

It can't. In Matt 24, Jesus coming, like you wrote, is immediately AFTER the trib of those days...aka immediately AFTER the workings of Satan with all lying signs and wonders...we agree, not pre trib. In Rev 19, there is NO DOUBT as to it being AFTER also 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. 2 Thess 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

No, it wasn't. You were speaking to the 'multitudes' in heaven like a pre trib rapture was the only way for them to have gotten there. ALL the verse I gave show HOW without a pre trib souls get to heaven. So no, not out of context, just an inconvenient truth for pre trib rapture THEORY telling.

Until you get the fact that there are 2 events in which the heavens open up with 2 DIFFERENT verses showing 'signs in heaven'. Two different 2 times in which 2 different SIGNS are given. THE WORDS given in each place have DIFFERENT meanings. 1ST IS the tribulation of Satan, 2nd is the tribulation that comes AFTER THOSE DAYS. YES, THEY are VERY similar, cause they both come from the same place. 1st one is when the war in heaven ends and Satan is kicked out. That would be at the 6th seal What is the number of Satan? 666. Why would you associate CHRIST with the NUMBER 6 when the NUMBER 6 is given us as ONE OF SATANS NUMBERS? How many HINTS does GOD need to give to keep you on the RIGHT path? IF the 6th seal is as you claim 'the coming of Christ', then you have the 'little season' those under the altar are told their fellow servants will be killed like they were being killed by CHRIST. HERE again is how GOD PUTS IT. It is clear. It is straight forward. It SHOULD BE UNDISPUTED, UNQUESTIONED 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: And just in case you MISSED THE ORDER OF EVENTS THE FIRST TWO TIMES 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan What would it take to UNDERSTAND that the Lord coming at ANY OTHER TIME BEFORE THIS TO 'GATHER' anyone for any reason would render ALL OF THIS VOID? What did the first letter say? 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. NOT WHETHER WE PRE TRIB RAPTURE OR NOT but whether we cease to live in this body and have already followed Him or if we are one of the alive and remaining, we LIVE TOGETHER with Him. Why is it, NO MATTER what you may point to, IT IS NOT WRITTEN as a pre trib rapture? I can tell you what food you should and should not eat but you can't give me a single verse that has the Lord LEAVING the right hand of the Father, the Lord with the 'church' raptured returning to heaven, the Lord having 3 Advents, the made ONE BODY being split up for the purpose of a pre trib rapture, the Lord becoming a respecter of persons, the 2nd to last being first and the first being 2nd to last, and why is it do you suppose, it is always put forth as a singular event? NOT ONE PLACE where is SHOULD be OR WOULD be mentioned, is it. It is TOTAL and complete conjecture, a private interpretation, plus not a word of it can be understood without the wisdom of man taking us all over the place for a verse here and a verse there and those verses not having anything to do with 'the church' in part, then calling it a truth. Which verses do you use for pre trib rapture that don't fit with Christ gathering us AFTER the workings of Satan? Name one, please, just to start me off.

When Jesus died he went and preached to those in hell. Many of the dead, much like us, believed and followed Him and the graves were opened and when He ascended, he led the captivity (those captives of Death now HIS CAPTIVES) to heaven. For those who suffered the death of the flesh and blood body from THAT POINT ON, (New Covenant) were either saved or not, went to heaven or descended into hell. They were either made alive in Christ or they remained dead in Christ. Those who were made alive, FOLLOWED HIM in the LIKENESS of His resurrection aka in their spiritual bodies to go to the Judgment seat of Christ. Never again being 'dead' or amongst the dead or facing the 2nd death or the GWTJ which is for THE DEAD, not the living as they have already been judged. If you want it in Gods Words and not mine, read on. If you don't stop here. ---------------------------------------------------------------- When Jesus died he went and preached to those in hell. Eph 4 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Many of the dead, much like us, believed and followed Him so the graves were opened and when He ascended, he led the captivity (those captives of Death now HIS CAPTIVES) to heaven. see above. 1 Pet 3 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. Matt 27 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Isaiah 26:19 - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. For those who suffered the death of the flesh and blood body from THAT POINT ON, (New Covenant) were either saved or not, went to heaven or descended into hell. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. John 13 36Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. 14 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. The Way, the Truth, and the Life 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. They were either made alive in Christ or they remained dead in Christ. "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:7 KJV "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23 KJV "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6 KJV "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matthew 8:22 KJV "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living." Romans 14:9 KJV Those who were made alive, FOLLOWED HIM in the LIKENESS of His resurrection "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:5 KJV aka in their spiritual bodies to go to the Judgment seat of Christ. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV Never again being 'dead' or amongst the dead or facing the 2nd death or the GWTJ which is for THE DEAD, not the living as they have already been judged. see above John 11 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Returns to heaven? I've never read any such thing, and I have read the entire Book, Chapter by Chapter and verse by verse, here a little there a little more than once and even the NEW JERUSALEM is coming to earth. If Christ were returning to heaven I surely would have read it. And why would He do that? He sits at the right hand of God UNTIL...am I to just casually VOID that out as NOT being what is written? It's written as such a simple verse, a simple thought, even a CHILD could easily understand. So, I must have MISSED where it is written He leaves BEFORE enemies made His footstool...along with HIS returning AGAIN. Does He return to the right hand AGAIN? Does He sit UNTIL...THIS TIME AROUND? Again, that totally makes void the first UNTIL. Can you see my problem? I'm getting lots of 'thoughts, assumptions, conjectures aka lots of 'Hath God said's' and very LITTLE what is written as what is meant. I have read when He comes to earth, He is returning to sit upon HIS THRONE, the Throne of David... 'Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven'...and He is returning with ALL THOSE who NEVER DIE, and those who have followed Him, who have been given robes and who have washed their robes in His blood... It is at that time the dead rise (need to rule over those who never 'heard') remembering not all the dead will rise (those who did hear but rejected wait until death and hell and the sea give them up at the GWTJ) And THEN COMES THE RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAINING. THEY have not taken the mark of the beast, THEY HAVE endured to the end, THEY HAVE overcome the one who came to conquer. Well maybe to0 simple to understand. Do you believe there will be NO SIGNS for when Satan is kicked out of heaven to the earth. Why is that? After all, 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years PLURAL I believe not only are there Signs when the war in heaven has ended and Satan and his angels have been kicked down to earth come, there will be Signs when heaven is opened and Christ returns. Have you ever compared the two? Signs in heaven for Satan with the words Rev 6 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black (3189 melas Usage: The Greek adjective "μέλας" (melas) is used to describe the color black. In the New Testament, it is often used metaphorically to convey darkness or a lack of light, which can symbolize sin, judgment, or mourning. The term can also be used literally to describe the color of objects or appearances.) as sackcloth (4526 sakkos Usage: The term "sakkos" refers to a coarse, rough fabric made from goat's hair, traditionally used for making sacks. In biblical contexts, it is often associated with mourning, repentance, and humility. Wearing sackcloth was a physical expression of inner sorrow or penitence.) of hair, and the moon became as blood; blood being used in a variety of ways, bloodshed one of them 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Here we have stars that fell unto the earth, shaken of a mighty wind MUCH DIFFERENT than the army on horses coming in flaming fire. With the moon representative of the night and all prophecy of Satan given in moons, the whole moon blood doesn't speak to the return of Christ. Just like All prophecy of God is given in days. The sun and moon don't give light because COMPARED to the Brightness of the coming of Christ, they don't stand a chance. The sun certainly wouldn't go into morning and the 1st death to all who have taken the MARK of the beast is written. And why must they die? Because after the return of Christ, heaven is on earth and there is NO MORE DEATH of flesh and blood bodies (Satan bound, sealed in the abyss, no where for those souls to go) and can't have a 2nd death without a first one The sun (light) begins mourning because SATAN has come into the world, it simply doesn't work with Christ's return... Signs of Christs return (which is after the trib OF THOSE DAYS) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 4654. skotizó Usage: The verb "skotizó" primarily means to darken or to cause darkness. In a metaphorical sense, it can refer to the obscuring of understanding or the hardening of the heart. It is often used in the New Testament to describe spiritual or moral darkness, indicating a lack of understanding or enlightenment in relation to God's truth. pheggos: Light, brightness 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Who SEES ALL THESE THINGS? What generation doesn't pass? WHERE IS A PRE TRIB RAPTURE FOUND IN THE WORDS OF GOD?

If it read, 'the harvests will be...then there would be some ground to stand on, but the 'harvest' is 'end of the world' not a harvest divided into 2 parts, a 'barley harvest of souls at one point before Satans rule with another, a wheat harvest at the end, IS NOT GIVEN except in the traditions of men..*), and the reapers gather...the reapers are the angels. Rev 19 has Christ and the angels/reapers coming. "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:30 KJV "The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels." Matthew 13:39 KJV A harvest and A time for it, as given IN HIS WORDS, and as a single event. Any doctrine, theory, teaching...of anything other than that makes void the words of GOD. Untimely figs, star fall from heaven, moon blood, sun sackcloth all take place DURING the 6th seal as does the men wishing for rocks to cover them because what comes AFTER that SHORT SEASON (that season being when the 10 toe kingdom begins, aka the tribulation of Satan, his wrath, his deception upon the world, his setting up of the image to be worshipped), the one written of in the 5th seal that tells us CHRIST CAN'T 'COME IN THE 6TH' FOR A PRE TRIB RAPTURE BECAUSE Rev 6:11 And were given to them each robes white and it was said to them that THEY SHALL REST YET A TIME LITTLE UNTIL WOULD BE FULFILLED ALSO THE FELLOW SERVANTS OF THEM, and the brothers of them, THOSE BEING ABOUT TO BE KILLED AS ALSO [HAD BEEN] THEY Who was under the altar? THOSE HAVING BEEN SLAIN BECAUSE OF THE WORD OF GOD AND BECAUSE OF THE TESTIMONY WHICH THEY HAD UPHELD.

The 6th seal ANNOUNCES Christ is coming...show me where HE HAS ARRIVED in the 6th seal. If Jesus comes in the 6th seal, THEN WHO OPENS THE 7TH SEAL?

No, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to comprehend that Matt 24, Mark 13, 1 Thess, 2 Thess and all the rest, speak to 2 different events. pre trib rapture makes it IMPOSSIBLE for us to pick up our cross and follow Him. Pre trib rapture makes it impossible for us to be found worthy. Pre trib rapture makes us seek to SAVE OUR LIVES...pre trib rapture doesn't work with all we are taught... Before even getting to MATT 24, everyone come across 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Pre trib is about 'dividing the saints' leaving SOME upon the earth to be tested and others to skip it. How does that work? Luck of the draw? with some hearing the GOOD NEWS on time, for the rest... 'opps, a day to late so, it will be great tribulations...good luck with all that...I am off to heaven for a wedding feast'...sure wish you had heard some of the good news from us...but hey you have 7 years and 2 teachers to get it right and be saved... How long have you been studying? How well do you think they will do? Party in heaven while souls are going to hell on earth. WHAT A PLAN. And how does the 'body' get separated for a pre trib rapture when we read 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. Are the VERY ELECT not of the Body? According to PRE TRI they are not. VOID is what is made of all those verses by a pre trib rapture. Romans 12 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. If the whole body is gone, then who is here from this church? 9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. And how do GODS WORDS go out to 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Do I have this right? Those who believe the pre trib rapture theory believes that God takes EVERYONE on the earth away that has the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, (YET sends the two witnesses???) THEN takes vengeance on them?? WHAT if HE would have just left HIS ARMY with all that knowledge on earth? How many from around the world would have HEARD if those who were speaking hadn't been removed. Isn't it HIS desire that ALL be SAVED? No wonder the 'church' is losing people in droves. When the going gets tough the Christians disappear??? How do 'pre trib rapture' souls 'PICK up their crosses and follow Him' if they are taken before that is possible? How will God find them worthy? History have any meaning? pre trib rapture is because of want to be 'kept from' by not being a part of at all....that would be just TOO MUCH for the church to bear...same thing the SPIES thought... The Reports of the Spies Num 13 25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days. 26And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land. 27And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. 28Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there. 29The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan. 30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. 31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. 32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. 33And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. Pre trib teaches the 'trib' will be TOO GREAT for the people of GOD even though we have been told The Seventy-Two Return with Joy 17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Why give any power when speaking of Satan being cast to the earth IF ALL THOSE WHO KNOW IT ARE TAKEN AWAY?

To you

What happens when a belief is based upon a doctrine and not what is written? 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Does the great trib... 'was not since the beginning...' PRECLUDE all other times of 'great' tribulation? No, it does not. I suggest that 'walking through the valley of the shadow of death' has been 'great' tribulation for MANY...or being eaten by a lion while others watch because of your belief in Christ is great tribulation...or being crucified because you are a Christian is great tribulation... It may not be THE GREAT TRIB not since....but it is great none the less. What do we know? 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. How does one reconcile that with Rev 7 and 1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 144,000 Sealed 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. Praise from the Great Multitude 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. Isa 63:11 Hebrew word order And he remembered the days of old Moses [and] his people [saying] where [is] He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock where [is] He who put within them Spirit His Holy one of the translations reads 63 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? So you write/say. All I need is for you to show where GOD WRITES those things. The Book of Revelation isn't given to those under the law, so THEY aren't HIS SERVANTS as they have been blinded... so NONE of the 'seals' apply to them, only to Christians, who read the New Test. 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto HIS SERVANTS things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Do you believe GOD blinds a people and then causes HIS WRATH to fall upon them for being blind? What remains SEALED from us might help to understand how we are sealed with what is 'loosed' The Angel and the Small Scroll 1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. You said "The events described in Ezek also happened to the 1st century city when the majority of Israel rejected the new covenant gospel kingdom that began on Pentecost in 33 AD." When the 10 Northern tribes came out of the Assyrian Captivity, they were sifted and scattered amongst the gentiles throughout the whole world BY GOD, they didn't go back to their lands. So, the MAJORITY of 'Israel' never even KNEW Jesus had been born let alone crucified so there was no 'rejection' possible at that time. Another problem you face is the 'those who called themselves Jews' were of the synagogue of Satan 'VIPERS' and hypocrites and weren't of the tribe of Judah at all. Remember the very first prophecy? 14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Can you not see that the tribulation of Satan BEGINS with those signs? 666 - We are told of Satans coming in the 6th seal, not the Lords all the kingdoms of the world become His when? 7 WHY would stars FALL to the EARTH as UNTIMELY figs be a 'description' of 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. RATHER THAN 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Just using biblehub The sun will be TURNED into darkness and the moon into blood before than coming day of [the] Lord, great and glorious 3344. metastrephó Strong's Lexicon metastrephó: To change, to alter, to pervert, to turn Original Word: μεταστρέφω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: metastrephó Pronunciation: meh-tah-STREF-oh Phonetic Spelling: (met-as-tref'-o) Definition: To change, to alter, to pervert, to turn Meaning: I turn, change, corrupt, pervert. Word Origin: From the Greek words "meta" (meaning "after" or "beyond") and "strephó" (meaning "to turn" or "to twist"). Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "metastrephó," the concept of perverting or twisting can be found in Hebrew words like עָוַת (avah, Strong's H5753), which means to bend or make crooked. The sun will be turned into DARKNESS and the moon into blood before than coming day of [the] Lord, great and glorious 4655. skotos Strong's Lexicon skotos: Darkness Original Word: σκότος Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine; Noun, Neuter Transliteration: skotos Pronunciation: SKO-tos Phonetic Spelling: (skot'-os) Definition: Darkness Meaning: darkness, either physical or moral. Word Origin: Derived from the base of σκεῦος (skeuos), meaning "a vessel" or "implement," which metaphorically extends to the concept of obscurity or darkness. Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H2822 - חֹשֶׁךְ (choshek): Often used in the Old Testament to describe physical darkness and metaphorically for ignorance or evil (e.g., Genesis 1:2, Exodus 10:21). Usage: In the New Testament, "skotos" primarily refers to physical darkness, the absence of light. However, it is often used metaphorically to describe spiritual or moral darkness, symbolizing ignorance, sin, and separation from God. It contrasts with "phos" (light), representing truth, righteousness, and divine presence. Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Greek culture, darkness was often associated with chaos, evil, and the unknown. This symbolism carried into Jewish thought, where darkness was seen as the domain of evil forces and a state of spiritual blindness. The New Testament writers, drawing from this cultural backdrop, used "skotos" to depict the spiritual condition of those who live apart from God's truth and light. HELPS Word-studies 4655 skótos (a neuter noun) – properly, darkness (obscurity); (figuratively) the principle of sin with its certain results. WHY would the sun CHANGE TO A STATE OF EVIL AND CHAOS WHEN CHRIST RETURNS? Are the signs in the sun and moon for Satan coming wrath of them turning into GOODNESS AND LIGHT? The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE than coming day of [the] Lord, great and glorious before, ere. Adverb from pro; prior, sooner -- before (that), ere. Englishman's Concordance Matthew 1:18 Adv GRK: τῷ Ἰωσήφ πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν NAS: to Joseph, before they came together KJV: to Joseph, before they INT: to Joseph before rather came together Matthew 26:34 Adv GRK: τῇ νυκτὶ πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι NAS: [very] night, before a rooster KJV: this night, before the cock crow, INT: night before [the] rooster crows Matthew 26:75 Adv GRK: εἰρηκότος ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι NAS: had said, Before a rooster INT: who had said Before [the] rooster crows Mark 14:30 Adv GRK: τῇ νυκτὶ πρὶν ἢ δὶς NAS: very night, before a rooster crows KJV: this night, before the cock crow INT: night before that twice Mark 14:72 Adv GRK: Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα δὶς NAS: the remark to him, Before a rooster KJV: unto him, Before the cock crow INT: Jesus Before [the] rooster twice Luke 2:26 Adv GRK: ἰδεῖν θάνατον πρὶν ἢ ἂν NAS: death before he had seen KJV: death, before he had seen INT: he should see death before that anyhow Luke 22:61 Adv GRK: αὐτῷ ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι NAS: He had told him, Before a rooster INT: to him Before [the] rooster crows John 4:49 Adv GRK: Κύριε κατάβηθι πρὶν ἀποθανεῖν τὸ NAS: come down before my child KJV: Sir, come down ere my child INT: Sir come down before dies the John 8:58 Adv GRK: λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι NAS: I say to you, before Abraham KJV: I say unto you, Before Abraham was, INT: I say to you Before Abraham was John 14:29 Adv GRK: εἴρηκα ὑμῖν πρὶν γενέσθαι ἵνα NAS: I have told you before it happens, KJV: you before it come to pass, INT: I have told you before it comes to pass that Acts 2:20 Adv GRK: εἰς αἷμα πρὶν ἐλθεῖν ἡμέραν NAS: INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT INT: into blood before come [the] day Acts 7:2 Adv GRK: τῇ Μεσοποταμίᾳ πρὶν ἢ κατοικῆσαι NAS: when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived KJV: in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt INT: Mesopotamia before than dwelt Acts 25:16 Adv GRK: τινα ἄνθρωπον πρὶν ἢ ὁ NAS: over any man before the accused meets KJV: die, before that INT: any man before that the [one] The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before THAN coming day of [the] Lord, great and glorious 2228. é Strong's Lexicon é: or, than Original Word: ἤ Part of Speech: Particle, Disjunctive Particle Transliteration: é Pronunciation: ay Phonetic Spelling: (ay) Definition: or, than Meaning: or, than. Word Origin: A primary particle of distinction between two connected terms And they ARE CONNECTED...as SATAN will be coming BEFORE we are gathered to the Lord...JUST LIKE the SUN will put on SACKCLOTH and the moon BLOOD BEFORE the coming of the Lords Day 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Thank you for that comment! What I once saw as a 'deficit' when comparing myself to everyone else, who seemed to have info on all of them, I now see as one of the best parts of my walk with God through His words. I know 'basically' nothing when it comes to 'religions' having never studied a single one. From the beginning of this journey (with a teacher who taught me how to read the Bible for myself), I told myself when I get to the point that I understand ALL the words of God through the leading of the Holy Spirit* it would be only at that point would I go looking at what else might be out there...and I am happy to report, I am not even close to that yet, as a matter of fact, I get further from that point with every study... Hallelujah *except for using things like the Interlinear, Lexicon, Hebrew and Greek and the word definitions, tenses, etc... but that was before I started in these forums. Now that nowhere near as true as it once was but that solid foundation remains as to what I build upon.

That isn't what is written....this is 1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. At THAT time none of the seals had been opened. But then, when we continue on reading we see... 5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. At that time ONE does prevail. TO OPEN, TO LOOSE the 7 seals. How you can claim this is not true I don't know especially when we can see with our own eyes what GOD has written 1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, The OPPOSITE of that is what you claim with 'none of the seals opened at this time', so I disagree with your statement presented without any scripture to back it up. No, it was not, as it was when Christ rose and was handed the book having prevailed to do so. So I agree, it was not in 96, but at Christs rising. Good to see you acknowledging ISRAEL/Jacob

I can honestly say I know nothing about what the 'Jews' or those who call themselves jews are doing today, so I will take your word for it. I know those who are of the blood line will be saved in that and that the 2 sticks will be made one and that is good enough for me. As for the Millennial Kingdom, I don't get that from anything but the Bible and I figure they have to be right about parts of the truth or else how could they sell it? Thank you for your response and I am glad we mostly agree. That is quite difficult today, at least for me it is. God bless

How fun. My beliefs in a nut-shell so vastly different from the rest but that has verses for all of it without any 'it really means'... Take a piece of paper and write on it and roll it up and seal it. Write upon another piece of paper, wrap it around the first and seal it. Continue on until there are 7 pages, all sealed, all now ready to be opened, one at a time, that's one way that solves the problem. The outer page would even show the writing on the outside.... Next, What do we get from WORDS written on scrolls? INFORMATION, right? The information can speak to the past the present or the future. It can be straightforward, symbolic, etc...but whatever way it is presented, IT is the only truth we all have to work with. If the 7 seals have not yet been opened, then HOW do we know what is written on them? How are we discussing them right now, if they hadn't been unsealed when the Lamb was found worthy? And how could anyone be 'sealed' before the four winds are loosed, if the book still wasn't UNSEALED for that sealing? That's just basic common sense, right? What are we actually given in the Book? 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; For those who demand it is written in exact order the events will take place from this point on, just simply give book, chapter and verse where GOD words says it and I will happily stand corrected or let's agree it is nothing more than another conclusion of man, a tradition passed down, something only believed because a doctrine depends upon it and or an assumption.... but not a TRUTH that can be found in GODS OWN WORDS and skip everything that might be linked to that. In Rev 2 and 3 we get the run down on how things have been going and by including 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come, it covers the churches till His return... If anyone can show me how HEREAFTER is only from that point forward only, I'd like to read that myself because I am positive that 60 years after His death, He didn't do it all again, and that is what would have to be 'your belief' for that to be true. So, John is taken to heaven, and shown GOD sitting upon HIS THRONE, singular. No Christ, no Lamb, just GOD ALMIGHTY, upon HIS Throne, amongst 24 thrones elders with crowns sitting upon thrones, beasts all around Him a bit of a description of heaven at that time. Next, we are given the past event, not future, of the Lamb slain, which brings us to the point of Christ sitting at the right hand of GOD 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Up until Jesus was crucified, He was the Son of God, the Son of Man but NOT YET the Lamb of God but once He was... 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Taken from the Greek Rev 5:9 And they are singing a song new, saying, Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it, because You were slain and You purchased to God by the blood of You, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and You have made THEM to the God of US, a kingdom and priests; and THEY will reign upon the earth. Just for reference from biblehub. Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H1931 (הוּא, hu): Often translated as "he," "she," or "it," similar in function to "αὐτός" in Greek. - H1992 (הֵמָּה, hemmah): Used for "they" or "them," corresponding to the plural usage of "αὐτός." Usage: The Greek pronoun "αὐτός" (autos) is a versatile term used extensively in the New Testament. It functions primarily as a pronoun of emphasis or identity, often translated as "he," "she," "it," "they," or "them." It can also be used reflexively as "himself," "herself," "itself," or "themselves," and sometimes denotes "the same." Its usage is crucial for understanding the subject or object of a sentence, providing clarity and emphasis in the narrative. Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H595 אָנֹכִי (anoki) – I, me - H589 אֲנִי (ani) – I, me Usage: The Greek pronoun "ἐγώ" (egó) is used to denote the first person singular, "I" or "me," emphasizing the speaker's identity or role in the context. It is often used in the New Testament to highlight personal involvement, responsibility, or authority. In many instances, it is employed by Jesus to assert His identity and mission, as seen in the "I am" statements in the Gospel of John. In 96AD or so THE BOOK IS UNSEALED because John is told to write it down for us to read and study and to have all that information 'sealed' in our tiny little brains. And what info are we given in 96AD that continues on until today? So, in a nut shell, ALL THE SEALS HAVE ALREADY BEEN OPENED. Now all we have to do is figure out IF any of the information given us has come to pass. Have we been sealed? And I looked and behold, a horse white, and the [one] sitting on it having a bow (toxon) and WAS GIVEN to him a crown, and he went forth OVERCOMING and to overcome. My vote is for THIS SEAL to not only have been opened but also for it to have been in effect since the Lamb first opened it. Exact same thing as we are told in Peter 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.", As for the second one, who will take peace from the earth and they will slay one another, I am going with Yes on this seal also, not only to have been opened but instrumental in my understanding of what is taking place on earth today, and not something that will ONLY be taking place during Satans actual time here. As for the 3rd one, if you are not employing the 'be wiser than the serpent' then it is almost a guarantee you are being taken advantage of, but such is the life of a sheep being led to slaughter...a servant is a servant for a reason....we must remember Judgment Day is coming. So, another YES on this seal opened and action taking place. 4th one, no need to even speak to this one, is there? Death and deception famines and all the rest have most certainly been happening upon the earth. All this really helps me to understand how DIFFERENT the world would have been had Jesus not been rejected. This book would never have had to have been unsealed at all! Since I BELIEVE that there is no 'death' for those who come to faith while they yet live and we just go from this body to the celestial one at the first death (the terrestrial body one), all those who died the first death are ALREADY in their bodies in heaven and are just waiting for 'a time little' until the 'last week' of the 70 to take place...till the time of the gentiles is fulfilled aka all Christians accounted for. Which brings me to the 6th seal....the tribulation of Satan on earth, when Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven for a short season, the time that KEEPS us from the return of Christ and our being gathered to him at His return...which I DON'T BELIEVE has taken place because there has been no 'great' earthquake, the sun has not 'become black as sackcloth' nor the moon whole become like blood. There has been no beast rise from the sea with 10 kings, no 'head' has suffered 'a deadly wound' that has been healed, nor a false prophet claiming to be God with supernatural signs and wonders with the whole world is worshipping, nor any image set up to be worshipped, so no falling away but most of all there has not been seen 'the cloven tongue' upon anyone given up to death for a 10 day trial, by which the Holy Spirit has spoken, nor have there been two witnesses with supernatural abilities, nor have we seen heaven departed like a scroll, and we still await the day when the 2 witnesses will be killed and our two realms will become one, the time when men will wish to hid from the coming of Christ with the angels by having mountains fall upon them, when all flesh and blood bodies of the spiritually dead will die their first death, leaving only the 'living' to watch the 'dead' rise for them to see them transformed and gathered to Christ for the Lords Day to begin.... THAT is when the seventh angel sounds and THAT is when the bowls of the wrath of God will be DUMPED out and the day of the Lord will begin in which His foot hits the Mount and it cleaves a valley....

The 'synagogue of Satan' cried 'Crucify him' at the time Christ walked the earth. They called themselves Jews back then. Jesus wasn't speaking to John about them in 96AD as the temple had been destroyed years before and they, as the southern tribes, had themselves also been scattered to the world (the only difference being they never forgot who they were, while the northern 'house of Israel' did, and being sifted amongst the gentiles therefore becoming 'gentiles' themselves, have since become the Christians...along with whomsoever woulds...) So, shouldn't the question be "who was a part of 'the synagogue of Satan' in the year 90AD" that Christ was speaking to... and who are they and what are they teaching today? You said, "All seven churches ( "7" = complete, perfect churches, meaning the entire church age) have a remnant of true believers that come out of them." While I agree numbers having meaning, I don't know how you arrive at 'entire church age' and 'perfect churches' from grading Christ gave John of those churches from which we come. Wasn't He simply teaching us what to do and what not to do? Those who claimed to be Jews when Jesus walked the earth made their claim of being 'jews' based upon being descended from Abraham, which they were, but by their own words, 'they had never been in bondage to any man' we know they weren't of those who came out of bondage in Egypt, hence not of Judah... So, 60 or so years later, the 'mystery of iniquity' was still hard at work, through the deception taking place in churches, and is seen even today with the traditions of man being taught rather than the words of God, as was pointed out way back then as being a problem. It all goes back to the very first words we hear from the serpents mouth..., the questioning of Gods truth with "And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said...". It is this questioning of what is written" as being Gods truth followed by the ascribing of those words another meaning with 'what is really meant'. A Perfect example 'by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except 1 there come a falling away first, and 2 that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so 3 that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?' In that most simple, straightforward truth, there is no room for any other gathering at any other time, yet here we are today with MILLIONS of hours of debate and wasted time on a 'pre' gathering because of the QUESTIONING of the truth of those words with 'Yea, hath God said', concluding something different than what is so clearly put forth. That is 'the synagogue of Satan' working in our midst. Gods words say 'that day shall not come' but mens traditions teach, even insist that it will. Doesn't matter we are told to 'pick up our CROSS...' which is a reference 'to death'. Doesn't matter God isn't a respecter of persons. Doesn't matter we are to 'overcome to the end'...as man just invents an ending of his own that 'conveniently' comes 'previous' to the end by 'seeking to change the times' with a 'gentile church age' end of age... The first church is told it has fallen from its first love. That fall is ever so prevalent today. Where has the 'willingness to die by picking up your cross gone? How do we follow Christ or even Paul without it? This is how is it put forth on biblehub 26. agapé ► Word Origin: Derived from the verb ἀγαπάω (agapaō), meaning "to love." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H160 (אַהֲבָה, ahavah): Often translated as "love," used in the Old Testament to describe love between people and God's love for His people. Usage: Agapé is a term used in the New Testament to describe a selfless, sacrificial, unconditional love. It is the highest form of love, often associated with the love of God for humanity and the love that believers are called to have for one another. Unlike other Greek words for love, such as "eros" (romantic love) or "philia" (brotherly love), agapé is not based on emotions or feelings but is an act of the will, characterized by a commitment to the well-being of others. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, various forms of love were recognized, but agapé was distinct in its emphasis on selflessness and sacrifice. Early Christians adopted this term to describe the love that God demonstrated through Jesus Christ, particularly in His sacrificial death on the cross. This concept of love was revolutionary in a culture that often valued power and self-interest. HELPS Word-studies 26 agápē – properly, love which centers in moral preference. So too in secular ancient Greek, 26 (agápē) focuses on preference; likewise the verb form (25 /agapáō) in antiquity meant "to prefer" (TDNT, 7). In the NT, 26 (agápē) typically refers to divine love (= what God prefers). Christians should be willing TO DIE rather than be 'looking to a pre trib' rapture of the church (themselves) while leaving all the hard 'trib' to others. The entire concept of the Cross is abandoned by EVERY 'church' who teaches a pre trib rapture. What does GOD PREFER, what do His words tell us? Matt 16 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Again, when He comes again or when He returns, it is to 'every man'...not a portion of men. Matt 10 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Mark 34 finishes with 34Then Jesus called the crowd to Him along with His disciples, and He told them, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. 35For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.… Luke 14 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. The synagogue of Satan first brings into question the words of God, the truth of them, then twists them just a little bit, either in their order or their meaning, and that is the way deception comes upon us. As for "Jacob", we still remain divided. The southern tribes, the Jews, hold fast to the law, the northern tribes, the Christians, to faith. All will be saved. Apologies about the long delay and the long reply.

It isn't written in that manner, is it? Do you believe He created them with the knowledge and emotions of what was happening, as it was happening? Do you believe those sons of God in Job were celestial/angel or terrestrial/human beings?

All life was not destroyed in the flood of Noahs. The flood of Noahs time wasn't sudden, it was predicted for a LONG time by Enoch. So there are at least '3' in the beginnings, who knows, maybe more...the two we have discussed and Rev 21 A New Heaven and a New Earth 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Ecc 1 9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after. Proverbs 8:22 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: EZ 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. REV 12 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: GEN 3 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?