David1701

Psalm 88 (KJV)

1 O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee: 

  2 Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry; 

  3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. 

  4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: 

  5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. 

  6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. 

  7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted mewith all thy waves. Selah. 

  8 Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth. 

  9 Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. 


  10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 

  11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 

  12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? 

  13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee. 

  14 LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me? 

  15 I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted. 

  16 Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off. 

  17 They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together. 

  18 Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness. 
 

On 1/11/2023 at 2:17 PM, ayin jade said:

Just so there is full awareness. The vaccines do not contain any of the original fetal tissue or cells or cells derived from fetal materials. The cell lines continue to replicate on their own and no further sources of fetal cells are needed. it is common to use cell lines in medicine and medical research since the 1950s or 1960s. They are cells that replicate repeatedly so that new tissue is not required.

The "immortalised" cell lines (normal cells do not replicate indefinitely and have to be replaced) are produced by making them cancerous.  Let that sink in...

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-cancer-cells-in-vaccines/

On 1/25/2023 at 11:04 PM, other one said:

Today German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock  made a statement that Germany fighting a war with Russia.   Pretty much included Europe as a whole by using the word we in the comment.    Germany is sending their new Leopard 2 tanks and air defense weapons.

Poland is sending the older tanks and the US is sending the Abrams M1 tanks.

 

I hope everyone is preparing for a global Nuclear war for that is what Putin has promised us if we did this.

The people of Germany are almost all against this but apparently the Biden Administration pushed their leaders to do so.

Sadly this is all our makings.   Thank you Mr. Obama and Hillary....

In spite of its corruption and dictatorial leadership, Russia supports the family and good morals, in a way that the Cabal hates.  I believe that they are trying to provoke Russia into a nuclear war, so that Russia can be removed as a blockage to their world domination (the same reason why Trump had to be removed, and Margaret Thatcher before that).  The Cabal have been trying to make the world tolerant of everything, except godliness, truth and decency, for a long time now.

7 hours ago, Mije said:

When a believer sins, and before he turns back to God for forgiveness, what is he?

Looking for a one/ word descriptor-

A believer.

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

After Korah family being swallowed by the earth and transported directly to Hades, God then immediately roasted another 250 hypocrites men with incense. Into ashes God cooked them.

And a day after that the people slandered Moses and approached with hostility. God immediately killed 14700 of them with plagues without compromise. There was more than enough space to bury them in the desert free of charge.

We need this "stylish" God of Old Yahwe to lead this world like that ancient Times.

The Old God that turned Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes. That killed thousands of the firstborn in Egypt, and sink thousands of their army into the bottom of the sea. That rained down Joshua's enemy with stones and stopped the sun in the sky until the destruction of hundreds thousand enemy was completed. That annointed Samson to kill thousand and other thousands thousands with his death. That flooded the earth as high as the mountain and wipe off Millions of everything that breath 

And it has been two thousand years, I miss the Strong Fierce Hands of Old Yah to return. Where it will be so so bloody bloody blood shed in the Great Tribulation, At the FULLNESS SINS of the Gentile (you and me) God will no more kill in thousands but Billions.

This world is burning day and night, with the fire of GALLS, Greed, Arrogancy, Loathe, Lust and Stupidity (ignoring the consequence of sins into Millions of years to come). As lodges of satanic global elite rule and corrupt the nations, like monkeys swinging on the tree.  

Its the last thing we can expect in this unGodly hypocrite world.

 

Longing for bloodshed?!  I think some prayer might be in order...

23 hours ago, farouk said:

Bible study is helped by more formal versions, rather than paraphrastic ones.

 

I agree.  I avoid paraphrastic versions like the plague (e.g. The Living Bible and The Message).

23 hours ago, farouk said:

I take your point; Romans 14 does imply Christian liberty and personal responsibility.

Yes; however, the thing is, that whatever is not of faith is sin; so, we must be fully persuaded that what we are doing is God's will.  If we just do our own thing, without faith that it's the Lord's will, then it is sin.

3 minutes ago, farouk said:

I appreciate and use the King James - in English.

So do I; although, I also use several other versions.  It's good to compare and contrast different translations, for various reasons.

Just now, farouk said:

@David1701 I take your point about there being far weightier subjects in terms of doctrine.

There is as I see it a big different between Biblical doctrine and trying to enforce legalism.

 

I agree completely.

Question: Is it legalism to seek God's leading, in every area of life?

21 minutes ago, farouk said:

See also verse 4;  and the Majority/Textus Receptus has the phrase in verse 1 also.

That's right.  It's many of the modern versions that remove some words in Rom. 8:1, as they do in numerous other places.

Ah, some real sheep; although, one of them does seem to have an extra pair of ears...

When there are barren, fruitless branches all around, look up, for the Lord of Life is in control.

1 minute ago, enoob57 said:

Ok so you refuse to evaluate your tone ... we have nothing else to do but ignore you...

Well, my irony meter just broke!

A false teacher ignoring me, for pointing out his sin!

By the way, you speak for yourself.  You are not "we".

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The Scripture is the work of The Holy Spirit 
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)

[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

 

The Holy Spirit did (and does) much more than merely inspire the authors of the books of the Bible to write them!  He convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, for example; something of which you appear to be completely unaware.

6 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

 

I think maybe you should reconsider your tone in this thread...

I think that you are not the one to be making such statements, considering that you have been trying to fill an office for which you are entirely unsuited.  Some humility would be in order (and repentance), not a pretence of being on the moral high ground.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Obviously, since you didn't finish my statement. You can deal with my

posts any way you want, it is an open forum and I am not offended at 

all, nor have a heard a single thing that I haven't heard before. 

If you are among the election, then serve the Lord, but just remember

that He did not come to condemn, but to save.

I simply find that you are condemning a lot of people that the scriptures do not. 

It's no wonder many have come to believe in this controversial Universal

Reconciliation doctrine. The doctrine of grace alone regardless

of how you lived your life is just as egregious.

Malachi 2:17 You have wearied the Lord with your words;
Yet you say,
“In what way have we wearied Him?”
In that you say,
“Everyone who does evil
Is good in the sight of the Lord,
And He delights in them,”
Or, “Where is the God of justice?”

You are repeatedly misrepresenting what I post.  I have NEVER posted (or believed) that salvation is "regardless of how you lived your life"!  That is a false teaching, promoted by a minority of freewillers (and I'm not one of those either), who believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

I believe in POTS (Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints), which is the biblical doctrine that God preserves his chosen ones, causing them to persevere in the faith.  I also believe, because the Bible says so, that those who profess to be Christians, but live like the world, demonstrate thereby that they were never saved.

1 John 3:6-9 (ESV)

 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
  7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
  8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
  9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

I quoted you as saying the doctrines of grace is the Gospel. 

I have shown everyone by the words of the Gospel to not be

so, if you cannot see that, stick around and see how manyon the forum can.

Okay, so you don't believe in salvation by grace alone.  What religion are you; because Christians believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone?

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Philippians 2:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed,

not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, 

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.This is not a false doctrine, and only applies to the election.

Of course the word of God is not false doctrine; but, do you understand what Phil. 2:12,13 means?

It certainly does not mean that outworking our salvation is to be with terror and trepidation! 

It means with godly reverence and trembling in awe.  Why is this?  Because it is the eternal, almighty, thrice holy God who is working in you, to will and do of his good pleasure.

Quote

 

If you aren't

chosen, you cannot lose the reward of the faithful. Salvation is for all,

but who chose the way of the wicked will be cast away as the chaff.

If you are so confident in this doctrine, why are you condemning so many when few are chosen?

 

What are you talking about?  I've not condemned anyone!  Quit the false accusations.

Quote

 

I don't see the righteous judgment of a merciful

Father, just a few that got lucky, won the lottery, and have a free gift

that everyone else is just so much refuse. All they have to do is accept

Christ as Lord and Savior? That's not a covenant relationship through

the Son. They are called to serve, and be judged accordingly. The rest

live a life that was ordained for them from the foundation of the world.

Adam was commanded to tend the land. The majority of mankind

throughout history have done so under a curse. Yet if they do so faithfully,

why the condemnation?  They didn't tithe the produce of the land, or

follow laws of rest for the land because they were not the among

the first chosen to be a covenant people and given a Law for keeping

the land holy.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,

and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou

should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,

and them that fear thy name, small and great; and

should destroy them which destroy the earth.

How many prosperous people who are defined as consumers

among the nations escape that judgment? And why, because

they attended a church that promised them they will go straight

to heaven simply by believing? The western nations with their

military might and economic power sound more like the fourth

beast of Daniel that tread down the earth, than a nation under God.

My modest suggestion to every Christian is to reduce their proverbial

"carbon footprint" and stop devouring the poor.

Isaiah 3:

13 The Lord stands up to plead,
And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord will enter into judgment
With the elders of His people
And His princes:
“For you have eaten up the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the faces of the poor?”
Says the Lord God of hosts.

 

It's very simple: God has chosen to save some of Adam's hell-deserving race, before the foundation of the world.  He predestines these to salvation, by grace, through hearing the gospel and through faith in his Son.  The rest are left in the sin they desire and are left to the consequences of that sin.

Eph. 1:3-6 (Webster)

 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
  4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
  5 Having predestinated us to the adoption of children to himself by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,
  6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

He has saved you for His own purpose, to serve His Son.

 

I did not ask for what purpose God has saved you.  I asked from what God has saved you.

Perhaps you would like to answer the question asked, rather than pretending that I asked a totally different question.

Quote

 

No brother, those who teach that only the election are saved and everyone

else is damned to hell is a cruel and heartless misrepresentation of the Father.

 

You are contradicting the word of God.

Rom. 11:5-8 (Webster)

 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
  6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
  7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded {blinded: or, hardened}
  8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) to this day.

Quote

 

We are among those who have been entrusted with a divine commission

and given the greatest gifts of grace, and as a matter of fact, are expected

much more of then those who were not given to the Son by the Father.

Jesus promised that no one can snatch them from Him, but he does

not say they are free to do as they please either.

 

We are to do what the Lord says.  Everyone agrees about that.

Quote

 

That is not a doctrine,

that's just what He taught, often by parables, because the common people

were not chosen and not given to understand the principles of the kingdom.

That does not not make them children of Satan.

Those who willfully oppose

Christ are those who serve the spirit of anti-christ and serve Satan.

Most people throughout history have just tried to earn an honest living

and raise a family. It is the privileged, the educated, the wealthy who

manufacture most doctrines that divide the faithful into factions, and

ignore the Father's heart towards the poor, the oppressed, the widow,

the orphan, the persecuted Jew or other minority. They are promised

deliverance and justice. They were not called and chosen to serve the

Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why the scriptures clearly state:

2 Peter 1:

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,

and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call

and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 

11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the

everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And those who rule with Him are called, and chosen, AND FAITHFUL.

Rule who? Certainly not the cruel and violent oppressors, they are 

the condemned. Most everyone else clearly qualify for the merciful

kindness of our loving Father. They simply are not the election, 

only a remnant of the Jews, and a chosen number of Gentiles serve.

If everyone is called to the ministry, who are the ministered? 

 

Election is to salvation, not merely service.

Rom. 9:21-24 (Webster)

21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour?
  22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up}
  23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory,
  24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

18 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

 

I do not read from scripture that predestination determines who will be saved,

...

I don't have time to deal with your whole post, but this needs to be addressed.

To predestine, is to determine someone's destiny, in advance; so, by definition, it determines what will happen to him.  If God has chosen someone for salvation, then he predestines him to be saved.  To put this in other words (with identical meaning), his destiny is predetermined, and that destiny is salvation.

Eph. 1:5 (Webster) Having predestinated us to the adoption of children to himself by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,

If you are predestined to be adopted as a child of God, then you are obviously predestined to salvation, since you don't get adopted without being saved.

Rom. 8:29,30 (Webster)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
  30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Note the unbroken chain: foreknew (this means "chose beforehand", when applied to people), predestined (destiny predetermined) to be conformed to the image of Jesus (you can't have this without being saved), called (i.e. called effectually to Jesus - see 1 Cor. 1:23,24), justified (declared righteous) and, finally, glorified (this is future, when we are resurrected; but it is so certain, that it is declared to be accomplished already).

8 hours ago, Mr. M said:

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, 

but grace AND truth came through Jesus Christ. 

John 8:

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, 

“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 

32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 14:

15 If you love Me, keep My commandments. 

16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another 

Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,

because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him,

for He dwells with you and will be in you. 

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send

in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your 

remembrance all things that I said to you. 

The Doctrines of Grace seems to be the only Gospel to those

who preach grace. The Gospel of John is the Gospel of Truth.

Is that enough context for you Br. David?
 

Maybe grace is enough to draw someone into accepting

the Gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation, but then there is this:

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of

our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Until I read this,  I used to think that as I grew in the 

knowledge of Truth, I would need less grace to fall upon.

What we scientists call an inverse relationship. 

Alas, it is grace from first to last, but it is the Truth 

that allows us to enjoy the liberty of conscience for

the sons and daughters of God.

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, 

He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His

own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak;

and He will tell you things to come. 

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God

always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God 

from the beginning chose you for salvation through

sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

Anyone who hasn't fully internalized the word "abide", 

from the Gospel of John and 1 John is not fully qualified

to preach and teach the Gospel.

John 15:

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,

unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me,

and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch

and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire,

and they are burned. 

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask

what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 

8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; 

so you will be My disciples.

Thanks be to God for this indescribable gift!

1 John 2:

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard

from the beginning.

If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, 

you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 

25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try

to deceive you. 

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him

abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you;

but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things,

and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you,

you will abide in Him.

 

 

Do you have a point?

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

It's actually woven through the entirety of Scripture... and right from the get go God has said so! As I have shown in the beginning.

This is, of course, complete nonsense.

Rom. 9:14-16 (KJV)

 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
  15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
  16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Here we have it, as simply and clearly as anyone could wish for: God's choice of upon whom to have mercy and compassion, is not based upon man's will or works, but is within God himself.

Regarding the false teaching that man has so-called "free will" (i.e. his will is, allegedly, not determined by anything other than itself, including man's desires, knowledge, understanding, fears, etc.), the Bible very clearly refutes this, in numerous places.

Eph. 2:1-3 (Webster)

 1 And you hath he made alive , who were dead in trespasses and sins;
  2 In which in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
  3 Among whom also we all had our manner of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Here, we see that unbelievers fulfil the desires of the flesh and mind, according to their nature.  This is entirely contrary to so-called "free will", which claims that the will is not determined by such things (or, in fact, anything at all, except itself).

Proverbs 21:1 (Webster) The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it wherever he will.

This is as clear as day: the LORD turns the hearts of kings wherever he wants (since this is the case with kings, how much more is it true of those with lesser authority).  In other words, God determines which way a man's heart will turn.  He might think that he has so-called "free will", but it is merely a figment of his imagination.

Rom. 8:8 (Webster) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Obviously the apostle Paul did not believe in "free will", since, here, he says that those who are "in the flesh" (i.e. unsaved) CANNOT please God.  Did you catch that?  They are UNABLE to please God; their will is not "free" to please God, but is utterly bound by sin.

I could go on, presenting proof after proof, but these should be enough for anyone.

I agree with Luther, that the Old and New Testaments are like two armies, opposed to "free will".  I would strongly recommend you to read Luther's book "Bondage of the Will", or one of the simplified versions.

10 hours ago, Mr. M said:

And now  you are separating these scriptures quoted from "those He foreknew".

Not into "libertarian" or any other doctrines of men. God knew that

the first generation who came out of Egypt would fall away, but the next

entered in and then what happened?

Joshua 24:31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua,

and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua,

who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

(Not because they were pre-programmed). I am not at all moved

by these doctrines of academic men of leisure.

There is an ability to learn a life lesson, as you have shared,

what remains is for a generation to pass on to the next what

the scriptures refer to as the "Memorials of Torah".

I know what this means, and I have seen it by experience,

and I don't buy the "they were never saved in the first

place" explanation. Men get offended, and turn away. Fact. 

Hebrews 12:

14 Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 

15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any 

root of bitterness springing up cause trouble,

and by this many become defiled.

16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, 

who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks.

For if they did not escape who refused Him who

spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape 

if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven.

Be Faithful

Hebrews 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an

evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” 

lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 

14 For we have become partakers of Christ

if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the

end, (there is that IF word again @kwikphilly )

15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

I absolutely take the time to hear His Voice. Not always 

a good report either. Anyone who chooses to disbelieve

me, the love of God is not in them.

1 Corinthians 13:

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not

parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek

its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 

6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 

7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

I have yet to be provoked by anyone's opinion. If someone has a testimony,

I listen and rejoice, and I believe in the experiences of others, for our 

God is the God of the living; thereby many do err, being indoctrinated

by education, not illuminated by the Presence, the Voice, and the 

commendation of the Spirit. I have been completely broken, and no

doctrine can fix that, just a broken and contrite heart, 

given over to the Lord who heals the brokenhearted.

Shema, O Israel! Listen and Obey!

Here is the remedy that Paul has already prescribed:

Philippians 3:

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind;

and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal

even this to you. 

16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already

attained, let us walk by the same rule,

let us be of the same mind.

Lest we be found to have condemned the guiltless. Mt. 12:7

Hebrews was written to Jews who had heard the gospel.  Falling short of the grace of God, or any of the other parts of Hebrews misused to teach that you can forfeit your salvation, were warnings about reverting to Judaism, having heard the gospel, and not going on to faith in the Messiah.

If you think that you can lose your salvation, then from what has God saved you?  This teaching that you can be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost is deeply dishonouring to the Lord, who is the one who saves and keeps.  Salvation is of the Lord, not man's will or works.

The ones whom the Father draws effectually to Jesus WILL be raised up at the last day.  To claim otherwise is to lie, and to call God a liar.

The effects of the "We're not saved, but on probation." false teaching are to promote pride in those who think that they are being good enough to stay saved, and despair in those who realise that they can't.  Nothing good comes from it - ever.

56 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

This conflicts totally with the surrender of free will in the Bible.

If what you say is of any truth, then why have I spent so much of my

adult life being chastised for bad behavior? David and Solomon are

said of explicitly that they had a heart after God. It absolutely does 

not say God gave that to them by predestination. The Truth, is that 

David repented when he was chastened, Solomon listened to his pagan

wives and fell from favor, as did Saul, Eli etc....

This is called the sure mercies of David and is the covenant that you,

David are under, here is how it is described.

2 Samuel 7:14; Hebrews 12:5-11.

The new covenant is repentance that brings salvation, not once, 

not twice, 70X7. We are working out our salvation in fear and trembling,

understanding that our Father punishes ungodly behavior, and if you

harden your heart to His discipline, and ignore His Voice, you missed

the entire lesson of the wilderness. If God wrote his book completely

in advance, why pray? Hezekiah was told to get his house in order and

prepare to meet his death, but when he wept and prayed and repented,

God repented and gave him 15 more years. God Repents! Keep praying

for your friends and loves ones, or assume they were predestined for

perdition, the choice is yours. 

 

The Bible says that repentance is a gift from God, and not everyone is given it.

2 Tim. 2:25,26 (KJV)

 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
  26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 

The Bible also says that faith is a gift from God, and not everyone is given it.

Phil. 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Pet. 1:1 (KJV) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Acts 13:48 (KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

We don't have so-called "libertarian free will"; it's a figment of the imagination.

51 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Have no idea why you're quoting me- I was really enjoying reading the Scriptures & then it went waaay off Topic imo ,did what I could to try bringing in some Peace and hopefully help all to see we can talk through anything " nicely"-  I'm not interested in partaking here ," the one poster" and accusing people of being false teachers is not part of my walk but God Bless y'all-leave me out of it - Thanks!

You have already partaken, and the bias was obvious.

Have a look at how Jesus and the apostles dealt with those teaching error.  It was stronger than anything in this thread; and it needs to be dealt with.