Faithwilldo

God is not evil (dark) but He clearly says that He uses evil to accomplish good.

I take it then that you agree with what these scriptures are teaching??? Most believers believe only what they are taught by others (not scripture) because what others teach is a view of God that comes from this world. And what comes from this world is more pleasing to our carnal minds than the truth of God. In fact, our carnal minds hate the things of God and we reject them every time. Luke 5:39 And no one having drunk old wine straightway wishes for new, for he says, The old is better. Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The old wine is the Old Covenant of Law (salvation by works) and the New Wine is the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. Our carnal minds teach us that we must do something in order to be saved, whether it is being baptized in water or by making a "free will" statement to accept Christ as Lord. Both are works if you take credit for those decisions. And since they are "works", they cause us to "fall away" and be broken (lose our salvation). Our salvation is 100% the work of God within us. We cannot take credit for even the decision to accept Christ. That decision that we make is caused by the work of God. Eph 2:6-10 and has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus, that he might display in the coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift: not on the principle of works, that no one might boast. For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has before prepared that we should walk in them. When scripture conflicts with a believer's world view, they usually find creative ways to make scripture match with their false beliefs even when it is very clear that there is a conflict. Others simply ignore those conflicts and maintain their false beliefs of God. However, if anyone has a love for the truth, they will put aside their world views and let scripture speak for itself. Here is a section of scripture that teaches what happens when one does not have a love for the truth. Matt 19:16-22 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Christ always teaches in "spiritual language". Here Christ is saying to "sell" (get rid of) your false beliefs that you hold dear and give them to the spiritually poor who still hold these false beliefs in high esteem. Only then can a person begin to follow Christ. These verses are not speaking about material possessions. Joe

I did not notice anyone giving any scriptures above. All I read above was opinions. Here is what scripture says. Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked? Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good? Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good (including the evil that God has created) to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby) Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. God is responsible for all things that happen, including good and evil. However with God (not mankind), God has the ability to use evil for His good and loving purposes. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good (including the evil that God has created) to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I do not believe in the "rapture" or the "tribulation" as taught by end-time prophecy teachers (I used to be one). This whole present age is the time of tribulation. The final age is the time of great tribulation. The people that are saved at the end of that age are shown in Rev 7 and they came out of great tribulation. Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands, Rev 7:14 and I have said to him, 'Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, 'These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb The group of people saved in the Rev 7:1-8 are the First Fruits (the Elect) who are being saved in this present age. These two groups account for all mankind. All end-time prophecy is teaching the pathway that the Elect go through in order to be converted. It happens over and over again. That is why scripture says Christ is coming quickly. Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly... Rev 22:20 he saith -- who is testifying these things -- 'Yes, I come quickly!' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus! I guess you believe that 2000 years or longer qualifies as "quickly". The truth is that this verse is speaking of the time He comes to each "called" believer. It started on the Day of Pentecost and is still ongoing. Also, Christ is NOT going to visibly return to this earth as is commonly taught. The "second coming" is the latter rain of the Spirit. It happens within a fallen away believer who has already received the early rain of the Spirit. That is why scripture says that every eye will see Him. Christ will come to everyone someday in that manner. When He comes, He brings salvation with Him. We are not saved when Christ first comes to us (early rain). Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Unless Christ comes to an individual a second time, they cannot be saved. That is the time Christ coverts us and heals our spiritual vision. There is a pathway and Christ will cause EVERYONE to follow it. Rev 1:8 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming -- the Almighty Christ came at Pentecost (who was), and is coming today to some of the Elect (who is) and He will still be coming to still more Elect in the future (is coming). Christ's second coming is not a one time event. Being "invited" to accept Christ is not the same thing as Christ coming to a person and giving them the early rain of the Spirit. As I said, unless Christ has prepared their hearts and has given them gifts (faith, Holy Spirit), no amount of preaching is going to get anyone to accept Christ. It is not possible. Also, there is only one age remaining until the end. This present age is for saving the First Fruits and the final age is for saving everyone else. Finally, there will be NO non-repented (or witches, pagans, etc.) in Heaven with God. They will be saved and made into the image of God before their relationship with the Father is restored. I am baffled why you say that you don't see any verses that say all mankind will be saved. Have you not read these verses? John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Col 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (all mankind will be judged and will learn righteous). Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Rom 11:25-32 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. (Darby) Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. (Darby) 2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach. Matt 18:11-14 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. (who could that possibly leave out?) Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (the final age) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Isa 53:5-6 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. (evidently by your beliefs, Christ is not good to those people in hell). Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; (except for the people in hell as you believe) Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (will the people in hell give God pleasure?) Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 1 John 3:8 He that practices sin is of the devil; for from the beginning the devil sins. To this end the Son of God has been manifested, that he might undo the works of the devil. (evidently the Devil's works will NOT be undone for the people in hell as you believe). Heb 9:26 since he had then been obliged often to suffer from the foundation of the world. But now once in the consummation of the ages he has been manifested for the putting away of sin by his sacrifice. (Darby) John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (evidently you believe Christ will fail). Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do. 1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; (evidently Christ will forget about the flesh that is in hell) How can you read the verses above and believe that Christ will not save us all? That is what He came to do and since God is Love, He cannot fail. 1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails; Your beliefs tell you that He will fail because He can't overcome the will of some people. If that is true, then anyone who is saved must contribute to Christ's work within them. That is salvation by "works" which God rejects. If He would accept us by "works", then Adam would still have a relationship with the Father and death would not be passed down from him. Joe

I agree. Death was passed down from Adam. However, the "death" that was passed down from Adam is spiritual death. Adam's offspring are born spiritually dead. In other words, we are born without a relationship with God. Christ came to restore that relationship. Because spiritual death was passed down from Adam, even babies need to be born again (saved, relationship restored). If a baby dies, they will be resurrected in the final age and Christ will cause them to walk the same pathway that leads to Christ. It is 100% His work lest any man should boast. To be restored, faith is the key. Christ will give of us "faith" and cause us to walk in it. Only then can we be restored to God. Joe

I'm sorry you are not really understanding what I am saying. As I said before, it is not a "chance" that we are saved. Our salvation is 100% by the will of God that we are saved. Mankind cannot save itself. The only way to be saved is to walk by faith and produce fruit and Christ is the only One who can do that work within us. We are born carnally minded, sinning machines that hate God. Christ will change that within us WITHOUT our permission. I know that is going against what our carnal minds think is right but if God did it any other way, we would have to contribute to our salvation and therefore would remain "self-righteous". No one can boast about their salvation because Christ did all the work of preparing our hearts to accept Him. Unless He has chosen a person to be saved in this age, they CANNOT be saved. They cannot do anything unless Christ does His work within them to change them first. Christ never did His work in A. Hitler, nor does He do His work within most of mankind. I would estimate that far more than 99.999% of mankind will NOT be saved in this present age. They will have to wait until the final age. The First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind is very few indeed. You said: I guess ultimately what I am saying is why convert if we all get the same prize? No, the First Fruits and those saved in the final age do not get the same prize. The Elect will have salvation first and will not go through the Great Tribulation of the final age. The Elect go through "Tribulation" but for those in the final age, it will be much harder. Also, the Elect will rule and reign with Christ in the final age. Those saved at the end will never receive this honor. They will be saved but they will have suffered loss - the loss of the blessings of being "heirs". There is a big difference. Also, we cannot "convert" anyone. Christ is the only One who can do that work. All we can do is "preach" which is how Christ has chosen to spread His word. But only Christ can cause a person to accept the Gospel. If He doesn't do His work within that person, you could preach to them all day long and they will NEVER accept Him. They have no "choice" in the matter nor do they have a "chance". They cannot do anything unless Christ works within them first. God is not a respecter of persons. We are all equal in His eyes and He will do with us as He chooses. We all must walk the same path way that leads to Christ. The Elect first, then everyone else later. The last to be saved is the Jews. Here is what Christ said to one of the Pharisees who ultimately help crucify Him: Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do. With Christ, our salvation is not about "if", it is only about "when". You said: You would think in his writings it would be even clearer. God hides His truth from all but the Elect and only then after the Elect have been converted. Scripture is written in spiritual language to keep the true meaning of scripture hidden. 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: I understand spiritual language. As I read scripture, I see over and over again where it says that Christ is going to save all mankind. And there are also many verses than explain His plan to do so. Here is another example of Christ teaching us by "type" (spiritual language): John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? All who are “in Adam” (all mankind) will become Christ's wife. Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon “faith” (believing God) and he was acceptable to God. However, Adam was created spiritually blind & carnal (like all mankind is) and he soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in “faith” and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through “works of the flesh”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works (carnal ways) and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind. In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents all who are in Adam (all mankind) who fornicated with another man (Satan) and has become a “harlot”. By committing this unfaithful act, the woman (mankind) left her “first love”. The woman could be restored to her true husband if she would come to him in “faith” and ask for forgiveness. But the woman does as her new lover (Satan) tells her and that is to approach God by “works of the flesh”. The woman desires to be restored to her true husband but Satan has deceived her and she is now following his ways instead of the ways of God. This false way is why the Nation of Israel rejected Christ when He came to them and that is why “called” believers likewise reject Christ. They too, follow the ways of Satan. Because of the woman’s adultery and her unwillingness to be restored by “grace through faith”, God divorces the woman and her marriage relationship is ended (spiritual death). In other words, the “called” believers are killed by Satan (Matt 24:9, Matt 10:28, Rev 11:7, Mar 4:15) when they return to “works” (“fall away”, the sin that leads to death). In verse 5, the element of the Law of Moses is added to mankind and was given to prove to us that our works can never be good enough to restore our relationship with God. In fact, once man came under the Law, we sinned all the more. The Law (Tablets of Stone) says that the penalty of adultery (sin) is death and that is why those entrusted with the Law were ready to stone the woman to death. The letter of the Law kills and that is why “stoning” was used as the method of death. The stones represent the Law of Moses. After having been caught in the act of adultery, the Pharisees brought the woman to Christ and tempted Him to follow the letter of the Law but Christ ignored them. Christ did not come to judge but to give us “life and to have it more abundantly (John 10:10). He came to bring us a New Covenant, the Law of the Spirit. The New Covenant is written in man’s heart and that is why Christ stooped to the ground and wrote in the “earth”. The “earth” is where the “called out” believers dwell, those who are under the Law. Christ’s act of writing on the ground represents the “early rain” of the Holy Spirit when we first come to Christ and He first writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts. After Christ wrote on the ground, the Pharisees asked again for Christ to judge her according to the Law. Christ “rose up” and said that only whoever is without sin should cast the first stone. At this first stage of our spiritual development (the “early rain”), we remain under the Law and it is still there accusing us before God. But Christ says that He (the only one without sin) is the only one qualified to judge. Christ then stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the “latter rain”/Baptism of the Holy Spirit). It is at this point that those who accuse her drop their stones and leave. The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) because now the woman is empowered to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh. It is at this point that the woman comes out from under the Law and finds true acceptance with God by “grace through faith”. We are restored to God and will “sin no more”. 1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Joe

It is nice to speak with you. You seem to be a gentle person who does not get offended or argumentative when someone presents a point of view that is different from your own. You asked: I would gather you think those who take the Mark and receive god's wrath will eventually be freed at the end of that specific AGE? Yes, absolutely. Jesus is the Savior of the world and He cannot fail (God is love and love never fails). Christ has a plan to save all mankind. Here is a quick summary of that plan: Most of mankind will NOT be "called out" by Christ. They will die as unbelievers and be judged in the final age. Their judgment by Christ is not like man's judgment. Christ is loving & merciful and does not change just because He is judging someone. Here is what scripture says His judgment is like: Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD. Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Christ's judgment is for the purpose of teaching us righteousness and saving us. It is symbolized by "fire". Fire purifies us and burns away our impurities. Without judgment we would not be saved. The Elect are judged now in this present age and all others will be judged in the final age. As I said, most of mankind is never called to follow Christ during their lifetimes but "many" are called out. Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. The many who are "called out" are said to be in the "church (the called out ones). But from that group, Christ has "chosen" a few to find salvation in this present age. They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are NOT the full harvest - they are only the early and best portion of His harvest of mankind (by His work and choosing). Once a person is "called out" from the world, Christ gives them an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit and of faith. However, the individual is left spiritually blind at that time. Satan moves in quickly and deceives them and they "fall away". Falling away is when a called believer turns back to trying to please God by works. It is the sin that leads to death. The most common "work" is to take credit for the decision to accept Christ as Lord. This causes the person to believe that they are smarter/wiser than the unbelievers. It makes them self righteous which God rejects. That is why the fallen away believers think it is justified for Christ to forever reject those that He didn't call. They simply were not smart/wise enough to make the right choice. The fallen away believers turned their decision to accept Christ into a "work" which justifies their belief in the Hell Doctrine. The Hell Doctrine would collapse without man contributing something from within themselves to justify why some are saved and some are not. If Christ has "chosen" a fallen away believer to be a "First Fruit", then Christ will come to them a second time and give them the latter rain of the Spirit. At this time, they will see what they have become (man of sin deceived by and following Satan, they had the mark of the beast). They see this now because upon Christ second coming them, He heals their vision so that they can finally understand His truth. At this time, their religious carnal nature is destroyed (in "one hour" Rev 18:19) and they start walking solely by faith. With their newly acquired spiritual vision, the scriptures open up and they start learning the truth for the first time. The truth will sanctify them. Christ then begins judging them so that they mature and produce spiritual fruit. Those believers who are left in their fallen away condition will die in their sins and be judged with the unbelievers. They will be saved at the end of the final age with the Jews being saved last (the first will be last). The Nation of Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years also "types" this path. The nation of Israel represents the "called out" believers who fall away. Joshua and Caleb are typed as the Elect. The number 2 in scripture is a symbol for the Elect (two witnesses). During the wandering in the wilderness, Joshua and Caleb have also fallen away and been deceived. But they live through their time of testing and cross the Jordan River (salvation) while the rest of the nation of Israel dies in the wilderness and is not saved. The conversion of Paul is presented to us as the pattern whereby all will be saved. Paul's conversion types the steps above in a little more detail. He is called out on the Damascus Road. There he is blinded and lead by the hand (the blind leading the blind) After laying in bed 3 days (represents his spiritual death) in Damascus, Ananias (representing Christ) comes to him and gives Paul the latter rain (second coming). At this time, Paul begins to eat "meat" (the truth). Like all the Elect, Paul was chosen from the beginning but he still had to experience being fallen away and being deceived by Satan. If Christ had not come to him a second time, Paul would have remained Saul and died in his sins. The early and latter rain (Jam 5:7-8), the woman taken in adultery (John 8:3-11), the healing of the blind man (Mark 8:21-25) and other verses present portions of Christ's plan. When it is all understood as a whole, then the full path to salvation is learned. Scripture is given to us as a "mystery". It takes spiritual understanding to be able to find the truth. The truth is given to us in bits and pieces that have to be assembled. Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever. There is much, much more that I could present in this pathway but I would need to write a book to present it to you. You asked: Tell me something here, what sets you and your wife apart from other Believers for God to give you such a "revelation" that no other has been given? My wife and I were just as "fallen away" as any other called out believer. We were happy in the church we attended. We did NOTHING to deserve the blessings that God has given us. We simply had been chosen by God from the foundation of the world. But when He came to us on Oct. 8th, 2005, He turned our world upside down. The sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood. There were earthquakes and thunder & lightning and great destruction. However, it all happened within us. It was 100% spiritual. All the end-time scriptures are talking about this spiritual conversion that happens when Christ comes a second time to a fallen away believer. Matt 24 and Luk 21 teach the pathway to salvation, too. That is why Christ was able to say that this generation that He was speaking to would not pass away until all the events were fulfilled. They were first fulfilled within the believers in the upper room and they have kept on being fulfilled within the life of each chosen believer ever since that time. I hope this helps. I would be happy to answer any specific questions if you have any further interest. Joe

As I said before, this is not a beneficial discussion with you. You are insulting and argumentative and won't accept scripture or my statements. There is no reason to continue.

"Forever and ever" is not correctly translated. It should say for the "age of the ages". Rev 13:3 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. This beast represents carnally minded, fallen away believers who are dwelling in the wilderness. They are under Satan influence (spirit of antichrist). Their number is 666 (full carnality and deception). We all have the mark of the beast after we fall away from the truth and are deceived by Satan. I'm sure you don't agree with my statements above. Revelation is given to us in spiritual symbols which on few understand. It took me years of study before I understood it. Those that have the mark, can only be saved when Christ comes a second time to them and gives them the latter rain of the Spirit. It is all part of the pathway that mankind must follow. I had the mark of the Beast up until 2005. When Christ came to me at that time, the brightness of His appearing destroy the man of sin who I had become under Satan's influence. This pathway is the same for all of Christ's First Fruits of His harvest. Also, you keep using the word "chance" but our salvation is not a "chance". We play no part in the work of Christ saving us. Christ does not leave it up to "chance". He prepares our heart to receive Him. If He did not, no one would ever be saved. Joe

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. There is no scripture that says man as a limited free will. If our will is limited, then it cannot be free. These verses above leave no room for your beliefs. God is NOT like like a man who doesn't always get what he desires. God exercises full authority and power over His creation to achieve all that He desires. Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Your belief in limited free will is a "work" that Christ rejects. It is the Old Wine. We can contribute nothing to our salvation. God is the One who prepares our hearts to accept Him. All His work is done "within" us. That is where the Kingdom of Heaven (Christ) dwells and works. He is cleaning the inside of our cup. You simply do not accept the above verses. You are trying to take credit for some of the work of Christ within us. When one believes as you do, they have committed the sin that leads to death. They have fallen back to "works" for salvation. Because of this lack of faith, that fallen away person will be judged by the Law. And since they can't follow the Law perfectly, Christ will deny them and say that they practice "lawlessness". Mat 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

ONLY the Elect in this present age are predestined to be First Fruits. They are the early and best portion of the harvest. They are few in number. As for the rest of mankind, Christ will save them at the end of the growing season (final age). He is the good farmer and He will bring in a full harvest. The Feast of Tabernacles symbolizes this final harvest. At this time, Christ will call out to the lost: John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. The Bride of Christ is the Elect, the First Fruits. Christ's call to the lost occurs at the end of the final age - it occurs at the consummation (end) of all the ages. 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. You say that man has a "choice" to decide to act on the faith that Christ gives us but the "choice" we make is caused by God. Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Christ clearly says that He will save all mankind and He even says that He is the cause behind the choice that we make. Mankind does not have a "free will". Most people reject those verses and claim that Christ would never force anyone to accept Him and that is true. When you accepted Christ, did you feel like He forced you? I'm sure you would say no. So how did He cause you to accept Him? As the scripture says, He prepared your heart and gave you the answer from your tongue. He caused your "will" to conform to His "will", not by force but by giving you His Spirit. And just like Paul on the Damascus Road, you immediately accepted Him as Lord. When Christ comes to anyone and gives them His spiritual gifts, they too will immediately accept Him because He prepared their hearts to receive Him. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Any supposed "free will" effort on our part to add to Christ's work of saving us is not supported in scripture. In fact, scripture says the opposite - no man can boast about their salvation because it was 100% the work of Christ. To claim as you do that mankind has the ability to make a free will "choice" to accept Christ after He gives us His spiritual gifts is not supported by any scripture. In fact, that understanding conflicts with many scriptures. If you won't accept those scriptures, then there is nothing more I can say and we probably don't need to continue this discussion. Joe

Scripture says that no man can accept Christ unless He gives them gifts of faith and the Holy Spirit. When He does this, they will accept Him just as you and I did. They cannot overcome the will of God. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? If someone is not saved in this present age, it is because Christ did not come to them. What about the people who lived before Christ and those that died at a very young age and those who lived isolated like the American Indians before Columbus? How do they have a "chance" to be saved? There is no provision for them in scripture because it is not necessary. Their time will come in the final age. I hope you keep thinking about the scriptures I pointed out. The Gospel of Christ is truly "good news" for everyone in this world. Joe

No one has a "chance" to follow Christ since we all have a carnal mind from birth which hates God. Also, scripture says that no one seeks after God. So unless Christ comes to us each individually and give us "gifts", we would never be saved. Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Do you believe that Christ is going to abandon most of mankind and not give them the gifts necessary for their salvation? Scripture says that no one can come to Christ on their own, the Father must draw them. Here is what scripture says about that: John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Are the statements by Christ not true? Is He not really going to come to all mankind someday and draw them to Himself? And if He draws them to Himself, will He really not accept them but cast them out? These verses are easy to understand but for many, they are difficult to believe because it conflicts with what they have been told. And what they have been told is easy to accept because their carnal nature is in control of their minds. This verse applies: Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. The lies of Satan taste good to our carnal nature but as we digest these lies, it kills us. That is how Satan kills the saints. It is not a physical death but a spiritual death. Is this verse also untrue: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. I suggest you believe these verses and then look to find out how Christ will fulfill them. His plan for saving all mankind is in scripture for one who diligently searches for the answer but you have to search for them as for hidden treasure: Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Christ really is not some monster who would torment in fire most of His children for all eternity and for no redeeming purpose, void of love and mercy. That is who Satan is. Would you ever do that to your child or would you do what is necessary to save them? Joe

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Nothing you can do will save you. Christ does all the work. If we needed to add to His work, then Christ would consider us self-righteous and reject us. Also, God does not sin or tempt anyone but He does use evil for His good purposes. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things (includes evil) work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. Judg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked? Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good? Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips. Joe

You sound very offended by my recent statements. It was not my intent but it does happen frequently when I present scripture that contradicts what someone believes. Of course, Jesus Christ is our God. He is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior. Someday all mankind will be like Christ and we will also be called sons of God. That does not mean Christ is not our deity. He is. He is the God of the Old and New Testaments. He is the One who met with Moses at the burning bush and upon the mountain when the Law was given to him. You assume way to much when you read my statements. As for the three questions, I did answer them very thoroughly with scripture. You just did not agree with my answers. Since this conversation with you is not of any benefit to you at present, I don't see any reason to continue it. Christ simply has not made you ready to receive my words. Joe

My conversion testimony is in my profile. It will explain a lot of my background. I have not associated with any denomination or church of any kind since I was converted in 2005. At that time, I heard Christ's call to "come out" from the great harlot: Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. The verses below are some of the reasons why Christ calls out His Elect: Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Salvation for All: The book of Revelation is written in physical symbols that represent spiritual truths. It's true meaning is concealed to all but Christ's Elect and only then after they have been converted and given "eyes and ears". Most readers believe that the book is a mix of symbols and literal statements. However, all the teaching in the book is symbolic. The Lake of Fire is no exception. The Lake of Fire is an "aionian" (for the age only) place of Christ's judgment. It is on the "new earth" (also a symbol) and there is no literal fire there. Christ would never do such a thing to anyone - not even His enemies. Christ's judgment is not like man's judgment. When He judges us (and it starts now with the Elect), it is for the purpose of teaching us righteousness. Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Christ established two pathways (first the broad path, then the narrow path) that the Elect must travel to arrive at salvation. The remaining "lost" during the final age will eventually travel the same two pathways for their salvation. The pathways include destruction & judgment of our Old Man. That destruction is spiritual, not physical. Our carnal nature must be destroyed. It is the "inside of the cup" that Christ must clean. The Elect are saved now in the present age and will be given the blessing of ruling and reigning with Christ in the final age to bring in the full harvest of mankind. The Elect are only the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. No one will be lost. He is the Savior of mankind. Here are a few verses for you to consider: 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. (Darby) Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach. Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. In this verse below, "fire" is used in the same manner as the symbol "Lake of Fire". Those that "suffer loss" are the ones who are judged in the "Lake of Fire". They lose the blessings of the First Fruits but they will still be saved in the end. 1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. The verses below teach what happens at the very end of the final age. 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. At the very end of the final age, God will be "all in all" and eternity starts. At that time, all mankind will be fully made into the image of God the Father. Christ's reign over mankind will also come to an end because it is no longer necessary. 2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Since the Lord is not willing that "any should perish", then who can stop Him? Certainly not mankind. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? If you have any further interest in this subject, please go to my profile and read some of my recent posts. If you then have any questions, please ask. I love helping others see the truth of Christ. Joe

I certainly have never said that we don't make choices. We certainly make choices everyday. The cause behind the choices we make though is God. We cannot act independently from God. Computers make choices everyday, too. But the computer itself is not the cause of the choices it makes. The programmer is the cause. Though this is a very simplistic analogy, it is not far from how God works within us. Have you considered these verses below? Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? You must remember that God is Spirit and He accomplishes His "will" by working within us. The scriptures that I posted leave no room for us to be the cause of any choice we make. Though our human senses can't detect God's presence within us, He is there working His will. Our carnal nature hates not having control over our decisions and that is one of the reasons why mankind prefers the "old wine" of works. Our carnal nature wants to show God that we are worthy of salvation, even if it is only in small ways such as taking credit for being wise enough to accept Christ as our Lord. But the truth is, God caused us to accept Christ. Our carnal nature we have from birth hates the things of God and will never seek Him out. Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Because of this truth, God must draw us to Christ. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. God draws us to Christ by giving us spiritual gifts without us having a say in the matter. His gifts include faith and His Holy Spirit. Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Just as Paul's "calling" on the Damascus Road was without Paul's repentance, so is ours. God is the cause of all things. This is His creation and He is in full control of it. Joe

I wish I had the time to respond in detail to all that you said. I will respond to your last questions quoted above. You asked: How then do you get around God being the cause of sin, the righteous Law Maker being the cause of unrighteousness and lawlessness? It is not me who says that God is the cause of all things. It is God. Scripture says that God created evil, therefore He created sin. He does not sin but He uses sin/evil to accomplish His goal of creating children who know "good and evil". Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good? Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Satan is not a "fallen angel" as many believe. He was created by God to be the way He is. God uses Satan to accomplish His plans for mankind. Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. 2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. So how did God "move" David? He sent Satan. 1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. God also sent an evil spirit to trouble Saul. God has no problem using evil to accomplish good. 1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked? Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. God certainly is the cause of "unrighteousness and lawlessness". You asked: It has been implied Jesus did not have a mind, affect, or volition of his own, that God was the cause of his thoughts, feelings, choices, and conduct. How do you maintain integrity with the doctrine of the Trinity? The Doctrine of the Trinity is completely false. God the Father is the one God from which all things come - including Christ. God the Father created Christ - He is God the Father's Son and God the Father is Christ's God. Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: God the Father created Christ - He is God the Father's Son. Someday, all mankind will be sons of God the Father and will be "one" with the Father in the same way that Christ is "one" with the Father. John 17:21 that they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. No where in scripture does it ever say that Christ is equal in authority with the Father. He is "one" with the Father because He has the Father's Spirit in Him just as we too will have the Father's Spirit in us someday. Once that day arrives, we too will be able to say "my Father and I are one". Just as mankind, Christ has a soul. Our soul is created when God the Father places our spirit into a body. In other words: BODY + SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL. We have an individual awareness and personality BUT we will be exactly like God in character. We will be so much like God that it will be said that we are "one" with Him. Someday Christ's reign over mankind will end when He has accomplished His mission of making many new sons of God. Christ reign will end and God will be "all and all". No trinity, just one big happy family. 1Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Joe

There are no perfect translations but that is not what I am talking about here. As for the symbol "Lake of Fire". It is a place of Christ's judgment upon the lost. There He will teach them righteousness and use the Elect (the Bride) to take them to the narrow path that leads to Christ: Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Also, the translation of "forever and ever" is incorrect. The Greek word used is "aion" which means age. It should say "for the age of the ages". At the end of the final age, all will be saved. The Elect "to whom the end of the ages has come" are saved now in this age. 1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. The rest of mankind must wait upon the final age to be saved. I call this final age the Lake of Fire age. I have not yet written a paper detailing the meaning of Lazarus and the Rich man but a brother in Christ wrote one which I will copy below. It is written by Ernie Kroeger and is quite detailed. Here it is: LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN THE SETTING The beginning of this discourse is found in Luke 15:3. "So He told them this parable." The Greek word for parable is clearly a singular noun. This statement is followed by five stories, namely, the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son, the unrighteous steward, and the rich man and Lazarus. We have no problem in identifying the first four stories as parables, but many claim that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable, because it says, "a certain rich man." (KJV) But the parable of the prodigal son also begins with " a certain man." (KJV), but "certain" is omitted in both cases in the 1995 NASB edition.) Since these five stories begin with the caption, "He spoke this parable to them", it clearly shows that these five stories are five aspects of one parable. The rainbow needs seven colors to complete the whole, and this parable needs five stories to complete the parable. If this were a real story, there would be some serious implications involved. If it is describing real conditions after death, then those in heaven will be able to talk to their friends and relatives in hell. They will be able to see their torment and hear their screaming pleas for help. Wouldn't that bring discord to the heavenly choirs? How could there be joy for parents if they could see their unsaved children being tortured in the flaming fires of hell! Also, have you ever found a verse in the scriptures that says we can go to heaven just because we have been poor, and suffered on earth? And where does it say you go to hell just because you were rich? If that were the case, then we should all become poor beggars. Also, how can a single drop of water alleviate the sufferings from the intense heat of the flaming inferno of hell (if you believe that hell is a flaming inferno)? If Abraham's bosom is heaven, then where did the righteous go after death before Abraham's time? Many claim that the doctrine of eternal damnation is confirmed by this story. But is it? How do those who believe it to be a literal story explain why the rich man was clothed in purple and fine linen, and why he had five brothers? What significance is there in the "dogs" licking the man's sores? We can only conclude that Jesus spoke this parable to convey a spiritual truth that would be fulfilled in the future. THE RICH MAN Whom did the rich man represent? The particulars of this story show that it was addressed to those who enjoyed the greatest privileges at that time. The rich man was from Abraham's seed. He was clothed in purple, the raiment of royalty and rulers, and fine linen, the clothing of the priesthood. Jesus was speaking to the Jews, specifically to the tribe of Judah. Initially the whole nation was to be a kingdom of priests. (Exodus 19:6). The rich man lived in splendor, and feasted sumptuously every day. Symbolically he was feasting on the rich mercies and blessings that the Lord had bestowed on the highly favored house of Judah. Judah had the glorious temple in Jerusalem. They had the scriptures, the law and the covenant and the prophets. They were rich in ritual and pomp and ceremony. "Who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen." (Rom. 9:4-5) The final factor for identifying the rich man was that he had five brothers. (v. 28) The rich man is the son of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, and it is only Jacob and Leah who had six sons, namely, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Zebulon. Jacob's other six sons were the sons of Rachel, and Bilhah (Rachel's handmaid), and of Zilpah (Leah's handmaid). Judah had five full-blooded brothers. This establishes the fact that the rich man is Judah. He had the southern kingdom of the Jews. Judah had been blessed with spiritual and material blessings, but instead of becoming a kingdom of priests, and blessing all the nations of the earth as God had spoken to Abraham, they despised and hated all who were not part of their nation. They felt they were rich and had need of nothing. They thanked God that they were not like other men, and did not realize that they were blind and poor and miserable in their self-sufficiency. The scribes and Pharisees realized that this parable was spoken against them - against their hypocritical religious tyranny. In this parable Jesus was tearing the mask off their depravity. LAZARUS Who is this poor neglected beggar full of sores to whom the dogs show more pity and kindness than the rich man did? The Jews looked upon the heathen nations as barbarians and dogs. In this parable, Lazarus represents the people who are lying at Judah's gate. While Judah was the recipient of many spiritual blessings, the heathen world, in contrast, was full of sores - which denotes its cast out and spiritually deficient condition. "Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores." A more accurate translation would be "the other dogs". (Thayer's Lexicon gives this definition: "Alla... neuter of the adjective `allos, meaning OTHER THINGS." Strong's Exhaustive Concordance also gives this same definition of ALLA. Primarily it is saying that Lazarus is just as much a dog as those who are licking his sores. Dogs on occasion do lick the sores of humans and other animals, but most often they are found licking the sores of their own kind. This serves as a figure of the heathen nations surrounding Judah, having to soothe one another the best way they could, except, of course, when they are fighting. So Lazarus represents the Gentiles, and they were considered as dogs in the eyes of the Jews. Palestine is wonderfully situated to bless all nations; it is situated at the junction of Asia and Africa, and almost in sight of Europe. From the dawn of human history, God not only designed where each nation was to live; He also planned and purposed to bless each one of them. Without doubt Lazarus represented the neighboring kingdoms which were without promise, without covenant, without hope, without Christ and without God in the world. It is interesting to note that Lazarus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name, Eleazar, meaning "he whom God helps" or "whom God aids." The Greek word for "name" is ONOMA, and not only means "a name," but it also carries the thought of ONE POSSESSING A CERTAIN CHARACTER. Putting this all together, the passage could well be translated, "There was a certain begging one who possessed the character of needing God's aid." And the name Lazarus means, "Whom God helps." The incident that took place when Jesus visited Tyre and Sidon, as recorded in Matt. 15:21-28, illustrates how the Gentiles were looked down upon as dogs. It also shows us their need for help. A Canaanite or Syrophoenecian woman came to Jesus because she needed her daughter to be freed from demon possession. In her first request she came as a Jewish woman and addressed Jesus as, "Lord, Son of David." Jesus didn't answer her, for she was wearing a mask. Jesus recognized this, and told the disciples that He had only come for the lost sheep of the house of David. But this woman needed help so badly that she would not be dissuaded. She came again, bowed down before Him and simply said, "Lord help me." Then Jesus answered her in a way that sounds harsh and very unlike our compassionate Lord. Actually He was testing her honesty and humility. He said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." Now wouldn't that get your dander up to be called a dog! But this woman's need was so great that she was willing to humble herself and to see herself as the Lord saw her - a little dog that needed a crumb from the Master's table! Jesus always responds to those who come to Him in humility and faith. "`O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.' And her daughter was healed at once." Now notice the parallels between this story and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. In both are found the expressions, "the dogs" and "the crumbs that fall from the master's table". This beautifully confirms our understanding of Lazarus' identity with the Gentile dogs. The pagan nations didn't have any knowledge of the true God; they had no covenant, they were without Christ, they were without God, and they had no hope. They only got a few crumbs from their rich neighbor, the Jews. Lazarus cannot possibly represent the 10 lost tribes of Israel, because they would not be called dogs, neither could the rich man then have 5 brothers. Lazarus has to represent the pagan nations. THE DEATHS OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS In the deaths of these two men, Jesus brought a prophetic message in symbolism. The beggar, Lazarus, died and was carried into Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died and was buried. These deaths represent a fundamental change. Lazarus was not buried; he was carried into the bosom of Abraham; but the rich man was buried, that is, he would never be the favored nation of God in his own right again. Never again would the kingdom of Judah become the chosen nation from among the Gentile nations. Not until Judah is joined to the Lord in Christ Jesus will it again be recognized as the people of God. The rich man "lifted up his eyes in Hades". The KJV says "hell" but that is not correct. The word "Hades" comes from the Greek A(I)0 DES. The "a" is a prefix which is equivalent to our "un", and the stem "-id" means "perceive". Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE or imperceptible; the unseen. That is Hades - the unseen world, the unknown realm. Our English word hell is derived from an Anglo-Saxon word "hillan" or "helan", meaning a cavern, anciently denoting a concealed or UNSEEN place. In parts of England men still say, "I plan to hell my potatoes," meaning to bury them in a hole or pit, that is, a covered place, out of sight. And in the old days a young couple seeking to be alone, sought a hell, a place where they could make love without being seen by prying eyes. The rich man went to Hades, into the unseen - a new condition that he had never anticipated. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ established a new covenant. The Jewish nation preferred to remain in the old covenant that was voided by the new covenant, but the Gentiles embraced it. This brought the Gentile dogs into the favored position of Abraham's bosom, and the Jewish nation into Hades where they have been wretched, hunted, haunted, excluded, rejected, outcast, despised, hated and dispersed among the nations of the earth for the past two millenniums. The miserable recent Ghettos of Europe are certainly vivid examples of the torment which the rich man is enduring.. ABRAHAM'S BOSOM The institutionalized church traditionally teaches that Abraham's bosom represents heaven. But this idea has no scriptural basis. If Abraham's bosom represents heaven, did heaven only come into existence in Abraham's time? What happened to the righteous dead before Abraham's time? Where did they wait for heaven to open up for them? The expression, "in Abraham's bosom" signifies having honor with Abraham. The word bosom is used 41 times in the Bible, and it always refers to the same thing - the area of the chest or breast of the human being. Isaiah tells us that the Savior will carry the lambs in His bosom, indicating a close personal relationship. The close relationship between the Father and Jesus Christ is also emphasized in John 1:18 where it says, that Jesus is in the bosom of the Father. In the time of Christ the honored guest would recline nearest to the host at dinner. This was called "lying in his bosom". John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, had that place of honor at "the last supper'". The expression "bosom friends" is often used to denote a close friendship. The fact that Lazarus was carried into Abraham's bosom has deep spiritual implications. Instead of natural Israel enjoying the blessings promised to Abraham, an exchange had taken place: Lazarus, symbolic of the Gentile nations, was now inheriting them. Paul wrote, "In order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith...Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, `And to seeds', as to many, but rather to one, `and to your seed,' that is, Christ." (Gal. 3:14,16) We're quite familiar with the promised blessings of lands and posterity, but we wonder when this promise of the Spirit was given to Abraham. The promise of the Spirit comes to us in Abraham's seed, that is, in Christ! The fathers did not receive the fulfillment of the promises in their lifetime, but they were persuaded of them, and embraced them by faith. (Heb. 11:8-9) Jesus Christ is the life. For this reason He could say that all who came before Him were thieves and robbers. None of the great heroes in the Old Testament had life. Any message, philosophy, or valuable laws that come to us but do not bring life, are thieves and robbers! The last enemy to be destroyed is death. Only life can destroy death. Jesus Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those "who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." (Heb. 9:15) An eternal inheritance demands eternal life, and eternal life necessitates the effective work of the eternal Spirit. It is exciting to realize that this eternal Spirit resides in us! We have been raised from the death in Adam to live eternally. The divine plan of redemption is first revealed to us in the life of Abraham. Before that God worked with individuals. Abraham received the promise that he would be the father of many nations, and that in him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Jesus took upon Himself the seed of Abraham, and in Christ the promises are fulfilled. To be in Abraham's bosom one has to embrace the promises given to Abraham. This brings us into a close personal relationship with Abraham as a recipient of the promises. This makes us true Israelites - children of the promise through faith. LAZARUS IN ABRAHAM'S BOSOM This story contains an astonishing prophecy, namely, that the rich man and Lazarus were to change places. The rich man had enjoyed the favor and blessing of God, but now he was now in a place of estrangement from God, while Lazarus, who had been in the "dog" class before, was now in Abraham's bosom. He had become the possessor of favor and blessing and close personal relationship. This prophecy came into fulfillment after the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. Abraham's righteousness depended entirely upon his faith. "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness...Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say,` Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.' How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham...For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written, `A father of many nations have I made you') in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist."(Rom 4:2-3;9-12;16-17) Abraham is declared to be the father of all who believe. That means that the Jews have lost their distinctiveness. There is no longer a distinction between Jews and Gentiles - the word "Gentile" includes all races and nationalities, regardless of color, except the Jews. Those who believe can claim Abraham as their father. Believing God makes them true Israelites. Abraham did not become the father of many nations through his natural lineage, but through his spiritual children. These are the people of faith who have been gathered out of every tongue, tribe, people and nation. "Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness…The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, `All the nations will be blessed in you.' So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer." Gal. 3:6,8-9) Notice that the Lord is called the seed of Abraham. After Adam and Eve sinned, God told the serpent that the seed of the woman would bruise his head. Why did He not say that the man who would come from the woman would bruise the serpent's head? We need to understand that the "seed" is not only the product of some other life before it, but it is also that which keeps reproducing itself and its kind from generation to generation! In John 12:24 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." In this statement Jesus likened Himself to a seed, a grain of wheat, which was to fall into the ground and die. He would be sown as a seed into the earth and be raised again. Not only would He be raised in glory, but in centuries yet to come, this seed, which was Jesus Christ, would produce a vast harvest of many sons of God in His exact image and likeness. The multitude that will appear in the time of harvest will be the seed of the seed, the increase, everyone bearing the image and likeness of that Christ seed which was planted in death. The natural descendants of Abraham no longer qualify as the seed of Abraham. In John 8:33-34,39, Jesus told the Jews that if they were Abraham's children they would do the works of Abraham. Instead, they were trying to kill him. Jesus bluntly told them that they were of their father the devil. (v.44) They did not realize that their position in Abraham and in God depended on their position in Christ, who was both the son of Abraham and the Son of God. So it is our faith in Christ that determines whether or not we are sons of Abraham. The fact that Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom told the Jews that the Gentiles, who had the faith of Abraham, would inherit the promises. This was prophetic of what God would accomplish in Christ - a very revolutionary thought for the traditional Jewish population! THE RICH MAN'S TORMENT What a surprise awaited the rich man! Instead of being in an imagined lavish mansion, he found himself in Hades - a place of darkness and unperception, so he was not a happy camper. In fact, he was in torment! The Greek word translated as "torment" is BASANOS. The English word for BASANOS is touchstone - a stone used for testing metals to determine their purity. Pure gold rubbed on this stone would leave a peculiar mark, and by the color of this mark they could determine its value. The rich man was having his quality and genuineness tested by the consuming fire that God is! What was bothering him? His eyes were seeing something that he could not understand. He saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom! Lazarus, the dog, was in the Jew's coveted place of honor! Because Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, more than likely they were enjoying a sumptuous meal together. The rich man still considered Lazarus inferior to him, even in the exchanged place that he found himself in. "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger iin water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame," he pleaded. His wrong ideas had no power in this realm. Lazarus could not bring him even a drop of living water! If the rich man had been in a literal burning hell, how much good would a drop of water do? If you were engulfed in literal flames, would you carry on a calm conversation with others? An eternal, literal hell paints God as a living monster, worse than Stalin, Hitler or anyone we have ever read about. It is so sad that Christians do not understand the symbolism used in the Bible. God has to open our eyes to spiritual realities. The rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus as being far away, and Lazarus occupying the place he thought he should have. The Jews are in that position at present. They see the Gentiles embracing Christ and enjoying God's blessings while they are suffering and being despised by the nations. They have indeed suffered greatly, but they still cannot believe that Christ came for them - for the sinner Gentiles, yes, but not for the righteous Jew. Those who are not living in the truth are tormented by the truth. Jesus Christ is the truth and the life. Embracing the truth is life-giving! But to those who will not believe, it brings torment. Truth does not change, but its effect on people depends on their acceptance or rejection of it. We either receive truth and life, or remain in our laws and traditions that bring guilt, punishment and torment. The rejection of truth blinds us to our true needs. Ever since the Jewish nation as a whole rejected Christ, it has wandered in darkness and difficulties. The gruesome history of the capture of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when there were not enough trees to crucify the Jews, down to the not so distant holocaust, tells the grim story of the hell they are in at present. Their moans, sobs and pathetic shrieks at the Wailing Wall express the grief that tears at their hearts. The successive waves of anti-Semitism keep crashing down, even as the ocean waves in a mighty storm. God has not forsaken His favored people of the old covenant, just as He has not forgotten those who reject Him at the present time. But their eyes have to be opened to their need. After Jesus opened the eyes of the disciples on their way to Emmaus, they recognized Him. He has to open the eyes of the Jews as well. In due time God will open their eyes, and they too will be saved. he rich man's first concern was for himself, so he asked father Abraham to help him. His tongue was so dry and parched because of the fire it was in. His thoughts and words were all in the death realm, and he needed the water of life to douse the flames produced by the living word of God. He realized that he needed help, but he pleaded with Abraham instead of asking the Savior. He wanted the promises, but in order to get the promises he had to go to the Giver of the promises. Jesus said, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink." (Jn. 7:37) He also said, "But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (Jn. 4:14) Eternal life is not in Abraham, but in Christ. Abraham could not give what was not his to give. His life too was in Christ! THE GREAT GULF It was very obvious that there was a father-son relationship between the rich man and Abraham. The rich man called Abraham father, and Abraham called the rich man son. But this relationship could not help the rich man span the gulf that separated them. What is this great gulf that separates the Jews from their father Abraham? In Gen. 15:6 it says that Abraham, "believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." It was Abraham's faith and his obedience of faith that set him apart from others. God gave Abraham a wonderful promise in Gen. 22:17-18. He said, "Indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." A beautiful spiritual truth is contained in the two different examples God used to illustrate the increase of Abraham's descendants! The stars in the heavens symbolize his spiritual children of faith, while the sand on the seashore symbolizes his natural descendants. There is a big difference between the natural descendants and the spiritual descendants. The natural descendants are symbolized by the rich man. As a nation, the Jews have refused to leave the law covenant. The spiritual descendants are all the people of faith in Jesus Christ, and are symbolized by Lazarus; they have embraced the new covenant. The great gulf symbolizes the fact that there is no connection between the two covenants. The natural descendants still cling to the old covenant, and therefore believe that they are God's favored people. They cannot understand that the old covenant has been nullified by the new. Their pride is in their ancestry, their history, their Law, their prophets and the old covenant. They are looking forward to the time when God's promises will be fulfilled in the natural realm. Their righteousness depends upon their self-effort and ability to keep the law. Many Christians have the same idea. The Law was given to show us our need of a Savior - not to give us righteousness. The Law was not faultless. If it had been faultless, "there would have been no occasion sought for a second." (Heb. 8:7) The blessings of the old covenant depended on Israel's performance. God said that if they would keep His laws He would bless them. God knew that they would not be able to keep the law, but He needed to convince them and us that self could not attain to the righteousness God has in store for humanity. The best, and only wise thing, is to drop the idea that our righteousness can perform the will of God, and let the One who came to perform it, even Christ, do the performing in us. The promised blessing to all nations comes in Abraham's seed (singular) which is Christ - not in the law. Abraham had faith in God and acted in the assurance that God would keep His promises. His righteousness did not depend on what he had done, but on the faith that God would keep His promises. There is a big difference between faith in God and faith in our good works for righteousness. The new covenant is a completely new covenant. It is not a remodeled version of the old covenant. It is a better covenant in every respect, and there is no opportunity for it to fail since God covenanted this covenant with Himself! The great gulf between the rich man in Hades and Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, pictures the fact that the two covenants are completely separate, and that the new covenant is not in Abraham but in Christ, for Abraham could not help the rich man. Let's briefly look at some of the differences between these covenants, and observe that self-effort has no part in the new covenant. The new covenant gives a promise and a guarantee that it will be fulfilled without our help! The new covenant has a better priesthood. The priesthood of Melchizedek is vastly superior to the Levitical priesthood represented by Aaron. Aaron was important because he represented the priesthood, but that priesthood needed many priests because death disrupted or ended the ministry of each successive priest. The order of Melchizedek is greater because it represents an endless priesthood that would come in Christ. Melchizedek was both priest and king. The priesthood and the kingship were separate entities until Jesus came and united them. Melchizedek didn't have any genealogy, for there is no record of his parenthood, his birth or his death. This symbolizes that he abides a priest continually, proving that his priesthood is superior to the Levitical priesthood. "Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?" (Heb. 7:11) The law covenant could not give life; it demanded a penalty for every infraction of the law. It was a law of sin and death for it does not know the meaning of forgiveness. The new covenant, on the other hand, is a life-giving covenant. Christ has become our high priest according to the power of an indestructible, that is, an endless life! (Heb. 7:16) The new covenant also has a better law. The old law of sin and death does not exist in the new covenant. In Romans 8:2 we read, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." We have been freed from the first law, the law of sin and death, and can now experience life and peace because of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The law of life does not refer to natural or physical life. Instead, it causes us to function in spiritual life, and brings about our death to sin. Eternal life cannot exist in the flesh, for the flesh contains nothing good. Eternal life is only in Christ, and His life in us will affect the way we live our physical life. The new covenant has better promises. "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." (Heb. 8:6) The new covenant is based on better promises! It promises a better priesthood (a permanent one); a better inheritance (eternal in the heavens); a better sacrifice (sacrifices don't need to be repeated, because Christ died once for all); a better guarantee (Christ); a better salvation (even the greatest sinner can be made a new creation in Christ); a better intercessor (Christ Himself); a better mediator (Christ - not Moses); and the promise of an indestructible life! (Heb. 7:22-28:16) "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. For all will know Me from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." (Heb. 8:10--12) What wonderful promises! What a great salvation! The differences between the two covenants are so great that it is no wonder Jesus called it a great gulf or chasm! In Jesus Christ, the seed of Abraham, this gulf was bridged. There is no gulf that is too wide for Him to bridge. Our righteousness does not depend on any achievement of our own; it depends entirely on the righteousness of Christ that has become ours through faith. So this great gulf is the difference between trying to achieve righteousness by our own merits, or by receiving the righteousness of Christ by faith. This parable is a very vivid picture of the uselessness of trying to obtain merit with God by ancestry, self-effort, power, riches or office. Since Israel has rejected the new covenant, natural Israel is still in Hades - in suffering and darkness. FAITH ACHIEVES WHAT SIGNS CANNOT ACCOMPLISH The rich man still wanted Lazarus to serve him. He asked Abraham to send him to his five brothers and warn them so they would not come to this place of torment. He figured that his brothers would really believe a man who had been raised from the dead. Abraham disagreed with that presumption, and told the rich man that his brothers should listen to Moses and the prophets. It was the Jews who had the Law and the Prophets. Abraham was right, because Jesus rose from the dead and the Jews did not hear Him! "They have Moses and the Prophets." After the resurrection of Jesus Christ, He appeared to two disciples on their way to Emmaus. They were so sad because of the crucifixion and death of Jesus! So often our sorrow stems from the fact that we do not understand the scriptures and therefore do not know God's ways. Jesus brought comfort to the disciples by explaining the scriptures! "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures." (Luke 24:27) The Old Testament is full of prophecies concerning Christ's coming and the sorrows He would have to endure. Jesus opened the eyes of their understanding, and the disciples saw that the scriptures had been fulfilled by Jesus. . Paul said that the Jews ask for signs, and the Greeks search for wisdom, but signs and wisdom cannot bring anyone into a relationship with the Father. This relationship only comes to us by faith in Christ. We are to believe the scriptures, for they testify of Him. They are a testimony of Jesus Christ! Believing the witness (the scriptures) will bring us to Christ! We can only get to know Him by coming to Him in faith. If we don't come to Him, we will only know something about Him. I have seen the Queen of England and know things about her, but I don't know her. I have never had a relationship with her. God wants a relationship with us, for He wants to reveal Himself to us. In Christ we get to know the Father! Without faith it is impossible to please God and to have a relationship with Him. So often we crave for signs because we want an easy way out of our dilemma and want God to prove His power to us. We're so excited when we see signs and wonders! But signs only point us to a thing or place. They do not bring us into a relationship. Believing God is the greatest thing we can do, for "whatever is not from faith is sin." (Rom. 14:23) Christ has given us the great commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel! He has bridged the gulf, and we can now bring the gospel to those who are living in the darkness of their carnality! They can cross the gulf by faith in Jesus Christ, and by embracing the new covenant that God has made with Himself and given to us.

You should go to my profile and read a few of my posts. Scripture is written in "another language" which is spiritual language. This language of Christ's utilizes Hebrew and Greek but the meaning of the key words carry a different meaning than what man teaches: 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The truth of Christ is hidden in spiritual language. The verses you quoted are not literal. That is why carnal mankind cannot understand the truth of Christ. Christ also spoke in parables to keep His truth hidden. By doing it this way, Christ has the ability to reveal it to whom He will and He only reveals it to His Elect. Below is a clip from one of my earlier posts that explains in more detail what I just said above. I hope it helps. Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. A person cannot find and receive the truth by walking into any "church" and reading their doctrinal statements. Christ keeps His Truth hidden from all but whom He has given spiritual "eyes and ears". Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear; 1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Has Christ given you the ability to spiritually understand the parables? Their meanings are well hidden in spiritual language. Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Matt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: If you can understand this short parable below, it may open up the spiritual door to receiving Christ's hidden truth. If you can understand, it will only be because Christ has darkened the sun and turned the moon to blood for you. Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. To understand this parable, you will need to understand the four spiritual symbols used in this verse. Those symbols are: 1. Woman 2. Leaven 3. Three 4. meal If Christ is willing, you will find the Truth. Here is how scripture says to understand the symbols: 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Paul tells us to compare spiritual words with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. Also, in that verse, Paul tells us something very, very important. Scripture is written in another language. It is Christ's spiritual language. In that language, the words have meanings different from what man's wisdom teaches. Here is a very simple example using the word sword: Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else? Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying. In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword... Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword... From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who take up (those called to follow Christ) the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature/Old Man) by the Word of God. Spiritual language is used everywhere in scripture when Christ is teaching us His Truth. Don't think that scripture was written in Hebrew and Greek, it was not. It is written in Christ's spiritual language utilizing Hebrew and Greek. Scripture was written in this manner to keep the Truth hidden from all but those whom Christ has chosen to reveal it. Can you find the treasure of the parable in Matt 13:33?

It varies by church denomination but mostly the doctrine says that if you reject Christ and die, you will spend eternity in a place called hell where there will be torment and suffering. Most say that you will be literally burned with fire. This doctrine is void of love & mercy and has no redeeming purpose. Christ would never do anything so horrific. It is a lie from Satan who masquerades as an angel of light (Christ). Joe

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Nothing that verse you mentioned says that we are the cause of our good works, in fact, it says the opposite. We are ordained by God to walk in good works. The verse I quoted earlier says who is the source of our good works. Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. Yes, we DO the good works but God is the cause of them. We have no choice in the matter. Don't confuse the "choices" we make with us also being the cause of those choices. God is the cause of them as He is the cause behind all things in His creation. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. You said: Jesus was not a robot or puppet and neither are we. Here is what scripture says: John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Christ plainly says "He (His Father) doeth the works". God the Father is the cause behind all things, even the works that Christ performed. To believe otherwise, Christ would become "self righteous". When we claim to be the source of "good works", we too are self righteous". One of the principle things mankind must and will learn is that God is the source of all that happens. We have no right to claim anything from within ourselves. It is God who works within us to "will and do of His good pleasure". Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Our carnal nature hates not having control or the ability to act independently from God. We prefer the "Old Wine". You said: God likes diversity. There are no scriptures that say that God likes diversity. In fact, scripture says just he opposite. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. By the end of the final age, all mankind will be like Christ who is like the Father. This is accomplished by God's Holy Spirit. There is no diversity there. Joe

I didn't see anything in the verses you quoted that says anything different from what I stated. Faith is a gift from Christ and the works that are produced from that gift are also His works. Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. We do not have a free will. God is the cause of all things. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Though it is a crude analogy, Christ is our puppet master. He is in full control of all things. That is why salvation for all mankind is certain. I assume you believe in the Doctrine of Hell. Since Christ is 100% responsible on whether a person is saved or not, how do you justify the Doctrine of Hell? Joe