transmogrified

He comes with his armies from heaven in Rev. 19...these are the saints and the angels coming just like when he comes in Matthew 24 in the glory of his father with all his holy angels...it doesn't specifically say the word 'resurrection or rapture,' but where did the saints come from that were with him if they weren't resurrected first? 1 Thess. 3:13 says Jesus is coming with all his saints...do we dismiss this has nothing to do with the resurrection / rapture because it doesn't say they were resurrected or raptured saints. No Is it a different coming when Jesus said to Caiphas when he told him he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven because there is no mention of any saints coming with him? No. Is another coming when John said 'He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him even those that pierced him, because there is no mention of a trumpet or the word resurrection or rapture is not there? No. Is 1 Cor. 1:7 where he says 'waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ another coming because there is no mention of clouds, end of the age, a trumpet sounding or a resurrection? No. Is James 5:8 where it says 'be patient brethren unto the coming of the Lord, ' yet another coming because it doesn't mention any clouds and no trumpet is sounding? Is 1 John 2:28 yet another coming when it says that we be not ashamed before him at his coming, because there are no saints mentioned, the word gathered in not used and it doesn't say this one is at the 7th trumpet? Of course these are all not different comings...we would probably have dozens of Second Comings if we were to dissect all the scriptures this way. I realize the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order...when the seventh trumpet sounds it says it is the time of the dead that they should be judged and that he gives out the rewards to all his saints, so even though this is mentioned in about the middle of the book of Revelation we know this is something that happens at the end of this age. The Book of Revelation in some contexts is like taking snapshots of your trip to Yellowstone...you might look at one snapshot and your at Old Faithful, then another snapshot and your looking at some bears...you have to connect what the event is in order to place it in the right time frame. He comes with the clouds in Rev. 1:8 which is at the beginning of the Book, yet it is the Second Coming that takes place at the end. It mentions the Second Coming in the middle of the book, yet he doesn't come until the the end of the age. It mentions him coming at the end of the Book, but all these are pointing to the same coming only giving different details in each setting.

The scripture only talks about Jesus descending down from heaven which would be his first coming, then he ascending back to heaven will come back to earth one more time, which is called the Second Coming. These are different depictions of him coming describing different attributes of what he is doing, but it is still the same coming. It is similar to the 4 accounts of the gospel...they are saying the same thing from different vantage points but still only one gospel. Like seeing a bus hit a motorcycle at an intersection. One eyewitness saw the bus failing to stop at the light, but didn't see the motorcycle, while another eyewitness saw the motorcycle skidding and hitting the side of the bus. Its not two different wrecks...one eyewitness was on one corner and another eyewitness on another corner saw something else. So the one in Matthew is showing him gathering the saints from heaven and the earth, which is none other than the resurrection / rapture shown in 1 Thess. 4:16 where it says the dead in Christ shall rise first, while the same event is described by Paul saying we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed..in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...at the last trump. While John in Revelation is describing the same event when he says 'and the seventh angel sounded and it was the time of the dead that they should be judged and that God would reward his saints and all the prophets small and great, and the kingdoms of the his world became the kingdoms of our Lord. These are all the same events being described from different angles as God revealed it to different people...so there is not one coming in 1 Thess. 4 that is different from the coming shown in Matthew 24 because one didn't say one thing and the other left something out. So the coming described in Matthew 24 is showing that he gathers his elect from the four winds of heaven and the earth, which is the same event being described in 2 Thess. 2 as 'the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him.' Paul is not talking about a different coming because nothing was said about a great sound of a trumpet. When Rev. 19 is talking about him returning with the armies of heaven, its not talking about a different coming than Matthew 24 because Matthew 24 didn't say anything about any armies.

Hi Adhoc... Good to talk with you. One of the foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ listed in Hebrews 6 is the resurrection of the dead. As we have said, no one knows the day or the hour, but we do know from 1 Thess. 4 that the resurrection of the dead in Christ must happen before the rapture. Jesus said in John 6 that 'everyone who sees the Son and believes on him he will raise him up at the last day.' Paul said the same thing that 'we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. There cannot then be a resurrection of the 'dead in Christ' before the tribulation and then another resurrection for 'everyone who sees the Son and believes on him,' at the last day, because these are the same people. 1 Thess. 4 'the dead in Christ' are resurrected John 6: 40 'all that see the Son and believe on him' are resurrected 1 Cor. 15: 51 'We shall all be changed...' These are all the same people as you have said: Knowing that Jesus said the resurrection of all the believers would take place on the last day and knowing that Paul specifically stated the resurrection of the dead in Christ must happen before the rapture, there can be no rapture before the last day.

Is Moses the only Old Testament saint who will be included in the dead in Christ that will be resurrected in 1 Thess. 4?

Does Jesus return to the earth in 1 Thess. 4:14?

At the Coming of the Lord. Here it is stated that the resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at the coming of the Lord, and not before it, nor after it. But when it was asked if this resurrection of the dead in Christ would take place at the coming of the Lord that is shown to occur immediately after the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24: 29-31, it was said, 'No. Not quite.' No. Not quite. The above quote included Revelation 19 and Jude 14 in the explanation of who the dead in Christ were in 1 Thess. 4 that God would bring with him. The saints returning with Jesus in Revelation 19 and Jude 14 are returning with Jesus to fight at Armageddon immediately after the tribulation. If 1 Thess. 4 is showing Jesus descending from heaven before the tribulation, the saints he would be bringing with him would not be returning with him to fight at Armageddon. Are you saying that 1 Thess. 4 is a pre-tribulation event?

So in the above quote we see that #2 on the list was the Church, which we have also agreed to be the dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4, and that they are to be resurrected some 2000 years after Christ was resurrected which we have also confirmed to be at the Second Coming, not before and not after. To be clear, is the Second Coming you are referring the one in scripture that is said to occur immediately after the tribulation of those days as stated in Matthew 24:29-31?

Sorry, I am not meaning for you to say April 5 or something, I know we do not know the day or the hour, what I am getting at is do you think this resurrection of the dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4 takes place at the 2nd coming, before the 2nd coming or after the 2nd coming? Thank you

I am just trying to find out when you think the dead in Christ will be resurrected. So you say whoever believes in Jesus and dies would be the dead in Christ. I realize the dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4 would not be the same as those resurrected at the time of Christ's resurrection. So now that we know the church is anyone who believes in Jesus and the dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4 are the church, when does this resurrection of the dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4 happen?

In the above quote it was said that the Church would be resurrected some 2000 years after Christ and those of Matt. 27 were resurrected. But then when it was asked if the dead in Christ were the church who would be resurrected in 1 Thesss. 4:16 it was said no they were not the church. Who are the dead in Christ, if they are not the church?

So when you say the church is resurrected some 2000 years after Christ and those of Matthew 27:51 were resurrected, are you saying the church is the dead in Christ who must rise first in 1 Thess. 4:16?

Right, no one knows the day or the hour. So you are saying the tares relate to those who are alive on the earth at the second coming. Where are the scriptures that show when the righteous and the wicked dead are resurrected?

Jesus does say the tares will be cast into the fire and the wheat will be gathered into his barn at the end of this age..when is the end of this age?

Hello AdHoc- Will both the wheat and the tares be resurrected and judged at the end of this age?

Hello- Thanks for getting back with me...I didn't mean to imply that there was a rapture before the tribulation for part of the saints and another rapture later...what I was saying that Pre Trib alleges there to be a resurrection of part of the saints pre trib and another resurrection of the rest of the saints after the tribulation. Do you believe the saints from Pentecost are resurrected before the tribulation and then the Old Testament saints resurrected after the tribulation?

Hi Joe Canada- Lets look bit closer at the text and see that he not only gave the answer to the Thessalonians back then, he also gave it to us some 2000 years later. Paul first went over the two things that had to happen before the Day of the Lord would come...You rightly identified them as being: 1) A falling away first, and 2) The man of sin must be revealed So look at verse 6 again and ask yourself who the "HE" is referring to here...Here is the verse- "And now ye know what witholdeth that HE might be revealed in his time. The reason this seems so hard to understand is that you are thinking the 'HE' here is the man of sin but it is referring to Jesus being revealed in his time, instead of the man of sin being revealed in his time. He doesn't start talking about the man of sin until he starts talking about the mystery of iniquity in verse 7, but the context through verse 6 is all pertaining to the things that must take place before Jesus is revealed. So instead of reading 'And now ye now what witholds that 'the man of sin' might be revealed in his time, read, "And now ye know what witholds that 'Jesus' might be revealed in his time.' So when the issue is 'what holds Jesus from being revealed in his time? the answer is easy: Its : 1) there has to be a falling away first, and 2) the man of sin has to be revealed....Now you know what witholds Jesus from being revealed in his time... Blessings to you- Gary

First thing we need to do is see the context of what Paul was addressing, and how it relates to the following dialogue. The issue was that there were some of the believers that had been led to believe that the Lord's coming was nigh at hand. There is evidence they were receiving much persecution at the time and were going through tribulations as it states here: 2 Thess. 2:4- "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure..." Paul had even encouraged them to take heart and to be assured that when Jesus comes he will take vengeance on those that were persecuting them. 2 Thess. 1:5 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those who trouble you..." and when Jesus is revealed from heaven he will...'in flaming fire take vengeance on those who know not God and do not obey the Gospel." Paul was reminding them of what he had already told them before about the things that would have to happen before the day of the Lord would come. In other words, he was bringing them back to the specific signs that would have to occur before the day of the Lord would come, and that being persecuted and going through tribulations was not proof that that Jesus was about to return. Paul was not correcting what would be considered a typical pre trib assumption here, in that Pre Trib does not believe that the church will never suffer persecutions or go through any tribulations, rather they do not believe the church will go through the specific period of time called 'the great tribulation.' So even though Paul is not correcting Pre trib in this aspect per se, his corrections to the Thessalonians's errors is also useful in correcting other Pre trib errors. So the first part of the 2nd verse says for them to: "...not be soon shaken in mind, or be troubled...' So what kind of things could cause one to be shaken in their mind, or what might cause one to be troubled? Being shaken means one is being tossed by winds, storms or waves according to Strongs #4531. What were they being shaken about? They had been shaken from the truth that Jesus and Paul had told them that there would be a falling away first, and the man of sin had to be revealed before that day would come. What did Jesus say would come first? He said many would come in his name confessing he was the Christ but that they would deceive many, he also said there would be wars and rumors of wars and then said 'But the end is NOT yet.' What else had to happen before the end would come? He said "nation would rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom, there would be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and that they would be afflicted and even kill you...but this in and of itself WAS NOT a sign that the end was nigh, or at hand. But then in verse 10 he says '...and many shall be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another." Here we begin to see the falling away Paul was talking about, as he goes on to say 'because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." But remember what Paul is saying in 2 Thess. 2. He is not saying the falling away is in and of itself the thing that indicates his coming is nigh, he says there must be a falling away first, AND the man of sin has to be revealed. So no matter how much falling away we may see, it has to be coupled with the other sign for us to really say 'his coming is nigh.' Jesus even used this phrase in Matthew 24 when he goes into the subject of the abomination standing where it ought not..."When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation....spoken of by Daniel...then shall be 'great tribulation.' So here we link up the appearing of the man of sin which begins the period called the great tribulation. Paul is using these teachings to correct the Thessalonians, that although they were suffering tribulations, the period of 'great tribulation' had not came because there had been no appearance of the man of sin as Jesus had told them must come first. Of course this is not in accordance with pre trib teaching at all. Paul would not be instructing them there have to be signs before the day of the Lord comes, or tell them they would see the man of sin sitting in the temple of God if he knew all along if they were truly his disciples they would be raptured first and would never see it. So after Jesus then brings up other things that must happen, he concludes with the saying 'When ye shall see ALL these things, THEN (and not before) KNOW that IT (the day of the Lord) is NEAR, even at the doors." So anyway lets go back to the narrative in 2 Thess. 2 as Paul gives us more detail. 2 Thess. 2- "Let no man deceive you by any means.." The same thing Jesus told his disciples Verse 3 "For that day (the Day of the Lord) shall not come EXCEPT there come: a) a falling away first...same thing Jesus said, AND b) that man of sin be revealed... So he is reminding the Thessalonians what he had already told them before as he says in verse 5 -"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you THESE THINGS." Ok, now here is the fork in the road where many make a false assumption about what he says in the next verse: Verse 6 -"And now ye know what witholdeth that he may be revealed in his time." The false assumption is that he here changes the whole dialogue from the 2 EVENTS he just described as being what has to happen before Jesus will return, unto a completely new dialogue as to what hinders the man of sin from being revealed. The next verse he does go into the mystery of iniquity, but verse 6 is still connected to his original premise concerning the things that must take place before Jesus returns. So when he says 'Now ye know what witholds that he may be revealed in his time',he is not talking about what witholds the man of sin from being revealed he is still talking about the immediate context that they now know what is holding JESUS from being revealed in his time. So now instead of reading 'And now ye know what witholdeth that the he (the man of sin) will be revealed in his time, you should read 'And now ye know what witholds that he (JESUS) will be revealed in his time." The 'HE' in this setting is the key word...if you put in the wrong entity, it throws the whole meaning off, and you begin to ask questions that have already been answered. Questions like 'is it Michael the archangel, is it the Holy Spirit, is it the church, because they are assuming the 'He' is the man of sin instead of Jesus. I have also heard people say things like, 'Well, they must of known what in the world he was talking about, but since I wasn't there I don't have a clue.' He didn't say 'Now ye know what withholds,' so only they would know...he wrote it so we would know as well. So lets go on to the next verse: 7) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." The word 'let' as you probably know does not mean 'to allow' as it would in today's meaning, but when it was written, 'let' meant 'to hinder.' So when he says 'only he who now hinders will hinder until he be taken out of the way,' what does he mean? Who is hindering what? He is talking about someone who was hindering and he has been hindering for the past 2000 years because he said he was 'now' hindering even in his day: "Only he who NOW hinders will hinder until HE be taken out of the way." So lets first look who is hindering what here. We can read in 1 Thess. 2:18 that Paul said he would have come unto them sooner but Satan hindered them." 1 Thess. 2:18- "Wherefore we would have come unto yo even I Paul, once and again, but Satan hindered us." So lets also consider that Satan was not in the man of sin during Pauls day for the man of sin himself had not yet come on the scene yet so the Satan Paul was talking about was the same evil spirit Satan that we fight continually. So the spirit that was hindering Paul in his day, is also hindering us in our day. But he says 'he that hinders will hinder until what? Until he 'is taken out of the way.' So lets look at how the Devil, or this evil spirit that we fight is going to be 'taken out of the way' at the Second coming. Rev. 21:1-2 -"And I saw an angel come down from heaven...he had a great chain...he laid hold on the dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years...and cast him into the bottomless pit...that he should deceive the nations no more..." That is the synopsis of how 'he that hinders, called the Devil and Satan is 'taken out of the way...' He is cast into the bottomless pit so he will deceive the nations no more. 2 Thess. 2;8- "And then shall that Wicked be revealed..." There are two revealings of the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2. One is when he is revealed to the believers BEFORE the second coming...as Jesus said 'When ye shall see the abomination of desolation (the man of sin) sitting in the holy place..." When he said 'When you shall see him sitting there, the implication is that it is not a mystery to you ...you know its him...he is revealed to you. This was the first revealing of the man of sin Paul was talking about as a sign that must occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord comes, this second revealing of the man of sin is to the whole world ON the day of the Lord WHEN he comes, as it states here: 2 Thess. 2:89 "AND THEN (at the Second Coming) shall the Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." So there is no doubt about who it is and when he will be destroyed. But what does it mean that he will be revealed 'at his coming?' Isaiah 14 goes into some detail about Lucifer and says when he is brought down to hell, 'they that see him shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, 'Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms..." Here the man of sin himself is revealed to the world but of course this is at the Second Coming not when he sits in the temple of God. Blessings to you all

Yes, please give me the verses about the pre-trib rapture and claims there is none... It is not an issue of whether the saints are caught into the clouds...most people will agree that we will be caught up in the clouds. The question is WHEN will this happen? The part of the scripture you have given does not prove when this is to happen, just that it will happen. Do you have any verses that show they are caught up into the clouds before the tribulation? There are not too many that would disagree that Jesus has not returned yet...how does that prove people get caught up into the clouds before the tribulation? Part of the scripture about the wise virgins says: "And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.: How do you know this cry that was made at midnight was before the tribulation? Another part of the scripture states: "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage; and the door was shut." The above text shows the wise virgins went with him to the marriage. How do you know this marriage happens before the tribulation and can you show me a scripture that this marriage is in heaven? Thank you- Gary

The two crops (wheat and tares) mature in parallel and the harvest comes. This harvest is the end of the AGE as you so rightly put. But at once a problem arises. According to the grammar, the Tares are harvested FIRST. You are right that he said this: "...And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." We must consider that this was a phrase included in the original parable that he put forth when he said in verse 24: "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying..." The disciples then came later and asked him for the interpretation of the parable. Jesus did not give any explicit information on what was meant by the tares being gathered first, but what he did explain is very straightforward, and correlates with many other scriptures. Here is this part of the parable, and whatever he meant by the tares being gathered first must be included in his interpretation. "The harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." So up front we see the tares are both gathered and burned in the end of this age, as he said "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age." He does not say the tares are gathered and burned at any time before the end of this age, but rather that they will be both gathered and burned at this same point in time called the end of this age. The end of this age is also called the Last Day...it does not mean that there are no other days afterward, but rather he means it is the last day of this age. This is the day that separates 'this present age' from the 'age to come.' Seeing he links the gathering and the burning to occur at the same point in time, i.e. the end of this age, or the last day, we can find other scriptures showing when the tares are cast into the fire and we can be sure that they were also resurrected, or gathered at that same time. The reason we can be sure of this is also in John 5:28-29, when it says "The hour cometh when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...some to life and some to condemnation.' It does not say "The hour comes when the wicked dead will hear his voice and then come forth, and then later the righteous will hear another voice and come forth." No. Both groups hear the same voice and come forth at the same time. So looking at the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew 25:31 we can see that when Jesus COMES, (meaning he is now here on the earth, not in heaven) THEN shall be gathered all nations, or all people, before him. The sheep are on his right hand and the goats are on his left, so there is no time gap between when these two groups are resurrected and judged. See what he is saying here: The goats are the wicked dead who have been resurrected and the sheep are the righteous dead who have been resurrected and they are BOTH before the Lord at the Second Coming. Think: If the wicked dead are resurrected and are before Jesus at the Second coming, along with the sheep, then the 'rest of the dead in Rev. 20 who are NOT resurrected until the end of the 1000 years are NOT THESE PEOPLE, proving the thinking that there are no wicked dead judged until the end of the 1000 years is wrong. Are they any other scriptures showing this? Yes, there are. Truth7t7 has stated in many times in John 12:48: "He that rejects me, and receives not my words, (The wicked, or the unbelievers) hath one that judges him; the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." This is of course the same 'Last Day' in which the righteous are judged as clearly shown in the Sheep and Goat judgment. Both groups are there, before the same Judgment Seat of Christ, at the same time, on the same Last Day. The judgment of the sheep: "Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..." The judgment of the goats: "Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels..." At this point the sheep enter into the kingdom prepared for them which is then the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ with his saints on the earth, and the wicked dead are cast into everlasting fire. This must be remembered that the sheep and goat judgment is the resurrection and the judgment of the DEAD, both good and bad, and it is not dealing with the judgment of those who are still alive on the earth at his coming. Remember, Timothy says he judge both the quick (living) and the dead. The sheep and goat judgement is just pertaining to the wicked and the righteous who have been resurrected from the dead. So lets consider another scripture concerning the wicked dead being resurrected at the Second Coming. This was the reply Jesus gave to Caiphas the high priest at his trial: Matthew 26:64 "Thou hast said; nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Caiphas died a wicked man, yet Jesus is telling him that he will see him when he comes in the clouds of heaven, which means the Second Coming. So how will Caiphas see Jesus if he is not resurrected until 1000 years later? And if he was resurrected 1000 years later he would not see Jesus coming in the clouds, for that event took place 1000 years before he was resurrected. Rev. 1:8 "Behold, he comes with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him." These two scriptures not only show Caiphas will see him, but also that those that pierced him will see, then goes on to say that EVERY EYE shall see him. Every eye cannot see him if only the righteous are resurrected. Notice the grammar. The Tares have been harvested and burned. Their fate is complete. But the parable goes on to show another judgment - this time, an assize. It is an exclusive judgment of things that offend IN THE KINGDOM! The Tares were not in the kingdom There is not one judgment for those who offend in the kingdom and another judgment for the tares...There are only two groups- one is called the Wheat and the other group is called the Tares. The only seed that was sown in the field was the Tares...there was not another seed called 'those that offend in the kingdom.' The Tares are defined to mean 'those that offend in the kingdom and those who do iniquity, as it says here: "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast THEM (both groups) into a furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So there is a distinction between 'those that offend in his kingdom,' and 'those who do iniquity,' but not two different judgments as both groups are cast into the furnace of fire, as it says "As therefor the Tares are gathered and burned in the fire...' Understanding the resurrection of the dead will correct many fallacies between the pre-trib errors and the a-millennial errors. Some would like to embrace the resurrection of all on the last day, but they think the only way it can work is if they deny the 1000 year reign on earth, but this is not the case. Good to talk with you- Gary

I will start by defining the word "FIRST". The Greek can mean "first in time", or it can mean "first in importance or rank". The context will tell. This is a very good observation. The word 'first' is 'protos' in Greek and was also translated 'best' in Luke 15:22 when the father said to give his son the 'best' robe. In this context, his best robe had nothing to do with being 'first in time' but was his first in importance or rank. There is another Greek word #2909 'kreitton' that has the same meaning when it says in Hebrews 11:36 that some were tortured that they might obtain a 'better' resurrection. The meaning of this Greek word is 1)more useful 2) more serviceable, 3) more advantageous, 4) more excellent. Again it has nothing to do with being 'first in time' in this context. There is an aspect of the first resurrection that does pertain to the 'first in time' definition. As you mentioned, Jesus was the first that was resurrected as stated here in Acts 26:23 "That Christ should and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead..." This resurrection is unique in that he was the first that was resurrected and also glorified, as all the other resurrections before him they were brought back to life but were not given glorified bodies and eventually died again and are now sleeping in the dust of the earth awaiting the resurrection of all the dead when they will be glorified and given bodies as Jesus has now as stated here: Phil. 3:21 "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body..." There is also another aspect of the meaning of the first resurrection in that Jesus is called 'the first fruits of those that slept.' In this sense he was the offered up to God figuratively as a sheaf to the high priest in the Old Testament, but in this sense it was foreshadowing the larger harvest that was yet to come. Hence we have Paul saying, Christ the first fruits, afterward those who are Christ's at his coming. At the Second Coming all the saints who are now sleeping in the dust of the earth will be resurrected and this is what is called 'the harvest' also known as 'the end of this world.' The word 'world' is use in the KJV but it is better translated 'age' as it signifies the end of this present age, then we enter into the 'age which is to come,' or the millennial kingdom for a 1000 years. So the confusion is that this resurrection of the just must somehow happen before the wicked are resurrected, which requires people to reject the obvious meaning of what takes place at the Second Coming, that both the wicked and the righteous are resurrected and judged at the same time on the last day. It is a misunderstanding that the 'first' part of the first resurrection already happened 2000 years ago when Christ was resurrected and seeing that we are in him, we are considered to be in the first resurrection. We can look at many examples in scripture to see both the righteous and the wicked are dealt with at the end of this age at the Second Coming. The other wrench that gets thrown into these gears, is not understanding who the rest of the dead are in Rev. 20 who were not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. Between these two misunderstandings we end up having to artificially insert gaps of time between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked in scriptures that plainly show they were both resurrected at the Second Coming, proving the wicked dead who are resurrected at the Second Coming are not the 'rest of the dead' in Rev. 20 who are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. So basically we can not have scriptures showing both the righteous and the wicked dead being resurrected and judged at the Second Coming and the simultaneously assert the wicked dead are not resurrected until 1000 years after the Second Coming. 1 Wheat and tares Both wheat and tares are judged and rewarded at the same time: Matt. 13:30 "Let them both grow together until the harvest; and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." So the disciples asked Jesus to explain to them the parable and Jesus himself interprets it so we don't have to. He said: 1) He that sowed the seed is the Son of man 2) The field is the world 3) The good seed are the children of the kingdom 4) The tares are the children of the wicked one 5) The enemy that sowed them is the devil 6) The harvest is the end of the world (age) 7) The reapers are the angels So now that he laid out the definitions lets look at what happens: Matthew 13:40 "As therefore the tares (the wicked) are gathered (resurrected) and burned in the fire (everlasting punishment) so shall it be AT THE END OF THIS AGE." So read that again. When did he say the tares would be gathered and burned? Did he say "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of the 1000 years? No he did not. He specifically stated they would be gathered and burned at the end of THIS AGE. It cannot be confused with the end of the NEXT AGE, which would be the end of the 1000 years. So what does this mean? It means the 'rest of the dead' in Rev. 20 who are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years ARE NOT THESE PEOPLE. There are many more scriptures on this subject but we can go into them later...Bless you all- Gary

Semantics, there are two resurrections on the last day,this event takes place in the twinkling of an eye, Are you saying that both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected in a twinkle of an eye on the last day?

Quote: There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ Yes there is one time of resurrection...it is when all those who are in the grave hear his voice and come forth...but there is not one voice that sounds for the righteous to come forth and then another voice at a later time for all the wicked to come out of their graves. John 5: 28-29 'All those in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of man and shall come forth.' Implying the voice sounds once for the righteous and then later another voice sounds for the wicked is not in the text. There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power. There are two groups of people that get resurrected, but one resurrection. Paul said in Acts 24:15 there 'will be a resurrection of the dead (singular) both of the just and the unjust.' He did not say there would be one resurrection for the just that would happen first, and then another one that would happen later for the unjust. There is a second death, but the assumption that there is a second resurrection is based on misunderstanding what the first resurrection means. We are in the first resurrection, not because we get raised before the wicked, but because we are in Christ who was the first that rose from the dead 2000 years ago. Jesus was the first that should rise from the dead and he is called the first fruits of those who slept...we are not the ones who got raised first...it was Christ who was raised first and we get raised later at his coming. But the scripture plainly shows that all the good and bad are resurrected at the same time on the last day. 1.) (First) Resurrection To Life 2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death The misunderstanding is corrected by the analogy of the net in Matthew 13. The net was lowered only one time. The net was drawn only when it was full of good and bad fish. There was no net lowered at one time to pick up the good fish, and then lowered again at another time to pick up the bad fish...The distinction was not two nets, but two kinds of fish in one net. The separation was based on who was bad and who was good, not when they were gathered, for they all came to shore in the same net, at the same time.

Hello this is Gary...Kind of just got back on discussion boards and wanted to go over some elements about this topic. One main point of misunderstanding is about how to reconcile the resurrection in Daniel 12:2 and the other statement in Rev. 20:5 that the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished. Its not like we can make scripture fight against itself and one persons clings to one scripture while another clings to a different one...they are all inspired and Daniel 12:2 is just as inspired as Rev. 20:5 but it needs to be understood. Pre Trib advocates there is no resurrection of the wicked dead until the 1000 years are finished, and in trying to establish this they end up overlooking many scriptures that show both the wicked and righteous dead are resurrected and judged at the Second Coming. The thing to realize is this resurrection that happens at the second coming consists of all humanity, good and bad, from the time of Adam until the Second Coming. John 5:28-29 states 'the hour cometh when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...they that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation." Because of misunderstanding Rev. 20:5 that the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, they feel they must insert a gap of time between the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous. It also happens with Daniel 12:2...Because of misunderstanding Rev. 20:5 they again feel they need to insert a gap of time between the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous. Dan. 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The Tregelles translation distorts the text to almost being unrecognizable to insert a resurrection for the righteous to happen at one time and another resurrection for the wicked at another time. It reads: "And many from among the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake. These (that awake) shall be unto everlasting life. But those (the rest of the sleepers who awake later) shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt." We also have the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Both grow together until the harvest..the harvest is defined by Jesus as being the end of THIS age, not the end of the NEXT age. He says the tares are gathered and burned at the same time wheat are gathered into the barn. It would be very misleading if Jesus really knew the wicked were not going to be resurrected and judged until the end of the 1000 years to say they would be judged and cast into the fire at the end of this age. We also see the same analogy when Jesus talked about the 10 talents in Matthew 25:14- " For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants and delivered unto them his goods...he gave such and such to one and such and such to another and straightway took his journey. After he left those who he had given the talents to traded with them but he 'that had received the one talent went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.' Then, after a long time the Lord of those servants cometh and reckons with them. The Lord traveling into a far country is depicting Jesus going away into heaven but when it says 'and after a long time, the lord of those servants COMES, he is referencing the Second Coming. But when he comes, he does not just deal with all the righteous servants, he also deals with the wicked and slothful servant. The wicked servant is not in the same category as the righteous. Jesus is not just dealing with different rewards for the righteous...he says to the unfaithful servant 'Thou wicked and slothful servant...' and then says 'cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' Casting the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth is not the same as 'well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord. The judgment of being cast into outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth is the judgment of the wicked, but this is not happening at the end of the 1000 years, this happens 'when the Lord of those servants COMES, not 1000 years after he comes. You can see they are both dealt with at the same time when it says, And after a long time, the Lord of those servants comes and reckons with THEM, not just with the good and faithful servants. The context is, he deals with one servant and rewards him, then with another servant and rewards him, then in the same time frame he deals with the wicked and slothful servant. But here again, people misunderstand Rev. 20:5 so they think they have to insert an artificial time gap when none is present in the text. He then proceeds on to the sheep and goat judgment where we see the same analogy. Both the sheep and the goats are there WHEN he comes, not the sheep are there when he comes and the goats are there 1000 years after he comes...No. Both are present at the same time. So here is the quote: "WHEN the son of man shall come in his glory (Second Coming) and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." So he is no longer in heaven, he has now descended from Heaven and is now sitting on the throne of his glory ON THE EARTH. And who is gathered before him? ALL people, or all nations, in other words EVERYBODY is before him, both good and bad, both sheep and goats. The goats are there just as the sheep are there. They got here because of what he had already stated in John 5:28 that the hour would come that ALL that were in the graves would hear his voice and would come forth...this is that hour. These sheep and goats are here before the judge and this is the Day of Judgment...the is the Judgment seat of Christ Paul wrote about. As he said, it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. This is the same judgment in Daniel 7:9 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the ANCIENT OF DAYS DID SIT....(This is Jesus when he comes to the earth and SITS upon the throne of his glory) a fiery stream issued and came forth from before him; ...ten thousand times ten thousands stood before him; the judgment was set, and the books were opened. But you can see the goats have been resurrected as well as the sheep and now they are all before him...not sheep at the Second coming, and goats 1000 years later, BOTH are being judged and rewarded AT THE SAME TIME. Read: "And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. vs. 34 THEN (at the time he sets them both before him) the king shall say to the sheep, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world....: vs. 41 THEN (at the same time) shall he say to them on his left hand, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." The sheep and the goats are BOTH resurrected and judged and rewarded at the same time WHEN Jesus comes, on the last day. So lets look at another scripture in 2 Thess. 1:6 Paul is telling the believers that is a righteous thing with God to recompense those who were troubling them at that time. He assures them that God will take vengeance on them WHEN HE COMES, not 1000 years after he comes. 6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those who trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heave with his might angels...(WHEN he comes...not 1000 years AFTER he comes) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel....(according to Pre trib doctrine there is no resurrection of the wicked dead until the 1000 years are finished, but here Paul is saying God will take vengeance on those who were troubling them WHEN he comes). "...who shall be punished with everlasting fire from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power..." and then the clincher as to WHEN they will be punished...vs. 10- WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN ALL HIS SAINTS. See that he says this punishment of taking vengeance with flaming fire will take place WHEN he comes, not 1000 years AFTER he comes. They have to be resurrected for him to punish them with flaming fire. So now lets look at another scripture in Rev. 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds, and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, even those who pierced him..." So how is that 'those that pierced him, being wicked men, will see him when he comes if they are not resurrected until 1000 years after he comes? The event is when he 'cometh with clouds, which is the Second Coming. He does not 'come with clouds at the end of the 1000 years...he has already came and has been on the earth for the entire 1000 years reigning with his saints. So lets look at another scripture in Matthew 26:64 "Jesus saith unto him (Caiphas) Thou hast said nevertheless I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.: So Caiphas was a wicked man, yet Jesus is telling him he will see him WHEN HE COMES in the clouds of heaven. This is the second coming, not an event that happens at the end of the 1000 years. Here again we see the wicked dead will be resurrected at the Second Coming or Jesus could have never told Caiphas this if he knew Caiphas would not be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. So lets look again at Daniel 12:2 "Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." So the word 'many' is a synecdoche, meaning that a part is put for the whole...In the same sense Paul said 'many were made sinners, it is not to be assumed that quite a few people were made sinners, but not all of them. No. The word 'many' is sometimes translated 'multitudes' of them sleeping the dust shall awake, meaning there the amount of people that will be resurrected will be great. This resurrection does not occur according to a pre trib timeline, as it states these many people will be resurrected when Israel is delivered, and we know from Zachariah that Israel is not converted until they see him coming and he saves them from being destroyed. Read: Timeframe: 1) Dan. 11:45 Yet he (antichrist) shall come to his end; and none shall help him (Second Coming timeframe...after the tribulation when Jesus comes down and destroys him) 2) AT THAT TIME Michael stands up...(same timeframe...not pre-trib) 3) There shall be a time of trouble (great tribulation period) 4) AT THAT TIME thy people shall be delivered (Second Coming) 5) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (Resurrection of good and bad at the Second Coming) .So you can see again there is no resurrection of the righteous happening here before the tribulation, and another resurrection for the wicked happening at the end of the 100 years...both are centered at the timeframe of the Second Coming. This is also confirmed that both of these events will have taken place by the time the end of the reign of the anti christ in Dan. 12:6 "And one said to the man clothed with linen...how long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" What wonders is he asking about? He is asking how long it will be to the END of the 1) man of sin, 2) Michael standing up 3) Israel being delivered, 4) the time of trouble, 5) the resurrection of both good and bad. We can't arbitrarily just delete the resurrection of the wicked that is included in the list of events to be completed. He doesn't ask. ..'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders, except for the resurrection of the wicked?' He asks 'How long shall it be to the end of THESE WONDERS...the wonders that were just spoken of. And what was the answer he got? It was told him that 'It would be for a time, times and dividing of times, and when he shall have accomplished to shatter the power of the holy people, ALL THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED. So go into the details here and see...The time, times and dividing of times would be the 3 .5 year reign of the man of sin, and then it says 'when he shall have accomplished to scatter, or break in pieces the power of the holy people, then all these things will be finished. So he is saying at the end of the 3. 5 years of the reign of the beast during which he shatters the power of the saints these events will be finished. He does not say they will be finished at this time except the resurrection of the wicked will happen 1000 years later...No. He says ALL THESE THINGS just mentioned will be finished...the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked will be done, the time of trouble will be over, Israel will be delivered, the man of sin will come to his end. So now lets see what is meant by the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Picture all from Adam until Jesus comes, both good and bad are resurrected at the Second Coming. The day in which he comes is the end of this age, the last day, the day of judgment, the harvest, etc..etc. It does not mean it is the last that ever will be, it means it will be the last day of this age. The group of people who have lived and died from Adam to the Second Coming are those who will be resurrected at the Second Coming, both good and bad. When we get to those who will dwell in the next age, or in the 1000 year reign period there is an entirely new set of people who live and die. So now instead of a group of people who lived and died from Adam to the Second Coming, there emerges a group of people who will live and die from the Second Coming until the end of the 1000 years, or until the Great white Throne judgment. The people who then live and die until the great white throne judgment encompasses an entirely new set of people. So from here we can deal with the issue of what Paul said in Timothy, that when he comes he will judge the quick and the dead...in other words, he not only judges the living, but also the dead. The instances we have looked at dealt with the resurrection of the dead. like at the Sheep and Goat judgment there was no 'alter call' for the goats to come now and accept Jesus...No. They have no more opportunity, while on the other hand, the ones who are still alive at the Second Coming have an opportunity to accept him. So Zechariah states that those who are left from all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the Lord..the issue is that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, so all people are not killed during the tribulation. Revelation brings this out in Rev. 2:26-27 "And he that overcomes will I give power over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..." So how will he give power to someone to rule over the nations if they are all killed? Of course they are not all killed, rather he rebukes them and they repent and become subjects during the 1000 years while we reign over the nations as kings and priests. Rev. 19:15 says 'he smites the nations and rules them with a rod of iron..." See if 'smiting them meant he killed everyone then he would not be ruling them for they would be dead. But what this 'smiting' means is that he rebukes them and the repent, as it states in Isaiah 2:4 'And he shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people...and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruninghooks, and nation shall not lift up sword against nation..." So anyway, thats the jist of how people get converted at the Second Coming and we rule over them during the 1000 years. So what is meant then that the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished? So go back to Caiphas seeing Jesus coming in the clouds and lets connect a few dots. Caiphas SEES Jesus coming, not that he is coming WiTH the saints, but the resurrected Caiphas has been resurrected and by extension even those that pierced him and everyone sees him but lets just focus on what is going on. The saints are coming with Jesus to execute wrath on the armies that are gathered at Armageddon. Connect these two dots, that although the resurrection of the wicked has happened and Caiphas sees Jesus and his armies coming to kill those at Armageddon on the last day, we can see that those at Armageddon will be killed AFTER the resurrection of the wicked has already taken place. These are the 'rest of the dead' that are killed ON THAT DAY that will not be resurrected until the thousand years are finished. This last day is now the beginning of the new age wherein people will live and die during this timeframe and will be those who are resurrected at the Great White Throne, both good and bad again, but of course that were killed will be included in this grouping. So lets look at one more scripture in closing to confirm what was just said in Isaiah Isaiah 24:21 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. (The kings of the earth that are gathered at Armageddon) they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, (gathered into the pit or prison called death and hell) and after many days shall they be visited."(after the 1000 years they are resurrected and judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. Thee is much more but this is way to long of a post...Gary

Hi...I'm Gary - I posted this over on the other post trib forum, but thought I might as well post it here as well...I was going to read all the previous posts on this subject but then I realized there were over 100 pages, so what I would like to say might have already been said at some point. Although we don't know the day nor the hour there is a sequence of events, in the sense that one thing has to happen before another thing happens. So when it says in 1 Thess. 4:16 that '....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...." So looking closely at this we can see that there is an event that must happen before we are caught up or raptured. So it would be wrong to say 'the rapture can happen at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first." because clearly the dead in Christ must rise first before the living are caught up. So what does it mean that the dead in Christ must rise first? For them to rise, or be 'caught up' first, what does that mean? It means before they can rise or be raptured, there must be a resurrection from the dead. So the living saints of course will not need to be resurrected before they rise, because they are still alive, but for the dead in Christ to rise, they must first be physically resurrected. Paul says '...we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all (both dead and living) be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump. There are five things to note in the mystery Paul was revealing to us. 1) We shall not all sleep (There will be some believers that will be alive when this happens) 2) We shall all be changed (All the dead believers and the living believers will be changed) 3) In a moment (All believers, dead and alive will be changed (get glorified bodies) at the same time, in a moment) 4) In the twinkling of an eye (Making it clear that the time involved for all believers to receive their glorified bodies does not happen over an extended period of time, but in the twinkling of an eye) 5) At the last trump (making it known these events will not take place until the last trumpet sounds) Seeing the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture, we know there can be no rapture before the resurrection. Its not that we know the day nor the hour, but we know that one specific event (the resurrection) must take place before the rapture (catching away) can occur. So when does the scripture say the believers will be resurrected? Lets look at 4 verses in John 6 to see not only when this resurrection will happen, but who will be included in this resurrection. John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 2) John 6:44 -"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day." 3) John 6:54 -"Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." The first reference says that all whom God has given to Christ he will raise them up (or resurrect) them at the last day. So lets look seriously at the first reference....it says ALL those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day. Remember Paul used the same words when he said we shall ALL be changed in a moment. So ALL does not mean PART of the believers will be resurrected at one time and then the other PART resurrected at the last day, it means ALL those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. So lets compare this to the Pre Trib doctrine that only PART of the believers will be resurrected before the tribulation and the other PART of the believers will be resurrected at the last day. Does this correlate according what both Paul and Jesus have said? No, it does not. They both said ALL believers would be resurrected at one time. Pre-trib doctrine asserts that the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only refers to the believers from the time of Pentecost until the pre trib rapture, but does agree with what Jesus said in the first reference? No. The phrase 'All those who God has given me,' would not mean 'the believers that had died from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture.' That would be a PART of those who God had given to Christ, but it would not be ALL those who God had given to Christ. How many believers has God given to Christ? John 17:9-10 "...I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine..." Here Jesus is saying that all those that belong to God are his. In other words, Jesus is saying he will resurrect all God's people on the last day, for these are the one's he said that God gave to him. Do God's people consist of just those who have lived from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture? No, of course not. God's people have existed from the time of Adam and will continue to the end of this age. Lets look even further to see if the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only pertains to believers from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture. Even saints who die in the tribulation are said to 'die in the Lord' Rev. 14:12-13 "...Here is the patience of the saints...Blessed are the dead which 'die in the Lord from henceforth..." It is apparent that dying in the Lord is the same as dying in Christ, for Jesus is the Lord. But lets look at some other scriptures to confirm what is being said. Who did Jesus say would be resurrected in John 5:28-29? '...the hour is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth; they THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life..." Did he say the hour was coming in which those who have died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre trib rapture would be resurrected? No, again he said ALL those in the graves would be resurrected and he identified them as 'those who have done good..' Are the only saints who have done good the ones who died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre-trib rapture? No, of course not...all his saints are 'those who have done good, not just certain ones. Lets look at some other scriptures of what happens at the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11:18 "The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..." So first look that the seventh trumpet is called the time of the dead that they should be judged. The words 'the time of the dead,' means the time when all the dead will be resurrected. The words 'the dead' does not just mean the righteous dead, as anyone can see there are dead people who were good and there are dead people who were wicked. This is the same resurrection Jesus was talking about in John 5:28-29...this is the time when ALL those who are the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...in other words, the time of the dead mentioned here is the resurrection of all the dead, both good and bad, and is also the time they will be judged as it says, the time of the dead that they should be judged. But in the pre trib doctrine the saints have already been resurrected, judged and rewarded. This is not true, as the scripture here states that it is at the seventh trumpet that all the saints will be rewarded as stated here: Rev. 11:18 "....and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..." So this is a completely different scenario than the pre-trib allegations. Here it states there is one resurrection at the seventh trumpet in which God would give reward unto: 1) His servants the prophets 2) And to the saints 3) To them that fear his name, small and great Here we see the time frame for this resurrection to be at the seventh trumpet and we also see that this is not specific to a certain grouping of saints, but one that would include all the saints who were in the graves whether they were small or great, plus it includes the prophets which means it is not even restricted to New Testament saints, but from the time of Adam down to when this seventh trumpet sounds which is at the Second Coming, at the end of this age. There are more scriptures that confirm this: In Matthew 13 Jesus gives us the parable of the wheat and the tares. He says let both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest...He does not say 'let the tares grow until the end of the age but let the wheat be caught away before the end of the age. No, he says let them both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST. Matthew 13:37-43 he gives the interpretation of it so we don't have to speculate as to what it means. He explains it here: 1) He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man 2) The field is the world 3) The good seed are the children of the kingdom 4) The tares are the children of the wicked one 5) The enemy that sowed the tares is the devil 6) The harvest is the end of the world (age) So lets see how Jesus said this would play out in verse 40: "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of THIS WORLD.' (AGE) The word 'world' is better translated 'age' in that the world is not destroyed at the second coming. But notice that he specifically says the tares will be gathered and burned in the fire, not at the end of the NEXT AGE, which would be at the end of the 1000 year reign, but at the end of THIS AGE, which would be at the Second Coming. But also note that this is the same time the wheat is gathered into the barn as it says in verse 43 "THEN (at the same time) shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father..." So again we have a completely different scenario being depicted than that which is shown in the Pre trib doctrine. We have here the wicked and the righteous being rewarded at the same time AT THE END OF THE AGE, whereas the pre-trib doctrine states that some saints have been rewarded BEFORE the end of the age, and no wicked are punished until the end of the NEXT AGE...which would be the end of the 1000 years. So lets look at another scripture in Matt. 13:47 "Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind; Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked form among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Here again we have a scenario that is going to take place at the end of the age...not at the end of the next age. The distinction between 'this age' and 'the age which is to come' is shown when Jesus said they 'have no forgiveness in this age nor that which is to come...' meaning they will have no forgiveness at the Second Coming or at the White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years. But continuing on here notice what happens: 1) The net is let down one time and one time only 2) It is not drawn to shore until is is full of good and bad fish 3) When it was drawn to shore the good were separated from the bad So consider: 1) The pre-trib doctrine has a net that is let down one time before the tribulation to pick up PART of the good fish, i.e. only those who have lived and died from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture. 2)Then at the end of the tribulation the net is let down again to gather up another PART of the good fish which allegedly consists of the Old Testament saints. 3)They have no net let down for any bad fish until the end of the age to come, which is at the end of the 1000 years. There is hardly any resemblance of what Jesus said as compared to what the Pre trib doctrine puts forth. Jesus said the net was let down only one time...pre-trib says the net was let down 3 times. Jesus said this net was let down once at the end of the age...pre trib has a net before the end of the age, another one at the end of the age, and another one at the end of the 1000 years. Pre trib has no separation of the good and bad fish at the end of this age, for they believe no wicked will be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. There are many other scriptures to look at, but this post is probably too long already....Bless you all- Gary

Hi...I'm Gary - I was going to read all the previous posts on this subject but then I realized there were over 100 pages, so what I would like to say might have already been said at some point. Although we don't know the day nor the hour there is a sequence of events, in the sense that one thing has to happen before another thing happens. So when it says in 1 Thess. 4:16 that '....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...." So looking closely at this we can see that there is an event that must happen before we are caught up or raptured. So it would be wrong to say 'the rapture can happen at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first." because clearly the dead in Christ must rise first before the living are caught up. So what does it mean that the dead in Christ must rise first? For them to rise, or be 'caught up' first, what does that mean? It means before they can rise or be raptured, there must be a resurrection from the dead. So the living saints of course will not need to be resurrected before they rise, because they are still alive, but for the dead in Christ to rise, they must first be physically resurrected. Paul says '...we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all (both dead and living) be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump. There are five things to note in the mystery Paul was revealing to us. 1) We shall not all sleep (There will be some believers that will be alive when this happens) 2) We shall all be changed (All the dead believers and the living believers will be changed) 3) In a moment (All believers, dead and alive will be changed (get glorified bodies) at the same time, in a moment) 4) In the twinkling of an eye (Making it clear that the time involved for all believers to receive their glorified bodies does not happen over an extended period of time, but in the twinkling of an eye) 5) At the last trump (making it known these events will not take place until the last trumpet sounds) Seeing the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture, we know there can be no rapture before the resurrection. Its not that we know the day nor the hour, but we know that one specific event (the resurrection) must take place before the rapture (catching away) can occur. So when does the scripture say the believers will be resurrected? Lets look at 4 verses in John 6 to see not only when this resurrection will happen, but who will be included in this resurrection. John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 2) John 6:44 -"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day." 3) John 6:54 -"Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." The first reference says that all whom God has given to Christ he will raise them up (or resurrect) them at the last day. So lets look seriously at the first reference....it says ALL those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day. Remember Paul used the same words when he said we shall ALL be changed in a moment. So ALL does not mean PART of the believers will be resurrected at one time and then the other PART resurrected at the last day, it means ALL those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. So lets compare this to the Pre Trib doctrine that only PART of the believers will be resurrected before the tribulation and the other PART of the believers will be resurrected at the last day. Does this correlate according what both Paul and Jesus have said? No, it does not. They both said ALL believers would be resurrected at one time. Pre-trib doctrine asserts that the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only refers to the believers from the time of Pentecost until the pre trib rapture, but does agree with what Jesus said in the first reference? No. The phrase 'All those who God has given me,' would not mean 'the believers that had died from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture.' That would be a PART of those who God had given to Christ, but it would not be ALL those who God had given to Christ. How many believers has God given to Christ? John 17:9-10 "...I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine..." Here Jesus is saying that all those that belong to God are his. In other words, Jesus is saying he will resurrect all God's people on the last day, for these are the one's he said that God gave to him. Do God's people consist of just those who have lived from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture? No, of course not. God's people have existed from the time of Adam and will continue to the end of this age. Lets look even further to see if the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only pertains to believers from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture. Even saints who die in the tribulation are said to 'die in the Lord' Rev. 14:12-13 "...Here is the patience of the saints...Blessed are the dead which 'die in the Lord from henceforth..." It is apparent that dying in the Lord is the same as dying in Christ, for Jesus is the Lord. But lets look at some other scriptures to confirm what is being said. Who did Jesus say would be resurrected in John 5:28-29? '...the hour is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth; they THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life..." Did he say the hour was coming in which those who have died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre trib rapture would be resurrected? No, again he said ALL those in the graves would be resurrected and he identified them as 'those who have done good..' Are the only saints who have done good the ones who died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre-trib rapture? No, of course not...all his saints are 'those who have done good, not just certain ones. Lets look at some other scriptures of what happens at the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11:18 "The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..." So first look that the seventh trumpet is called the time of the dead that they should be judged. The words 'the time of the dead,' means the time when all the dead will be resurrected. The words 'the dead' does not just mean the righteous dead, as anyone can see there are dead people who were good and there are dead people who were wicked. This is the same resurrection Jesus was talking about in John 5:28-29...this is the time when ALL those who are the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...in other words, the time of the dead mentioned here is the resurrection of all the dead, both good and bad, and is also the time they will be judged as it says, the time of the dead that they should be judged. But in the pre trib doctrine the saints have already been resurrected, judged and rewarded. This is not true, as the scripture here states that it is at the seventh trumpet that all the saints will be rewarded as stated here: Rev. 11:18 "....and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..." So this is a completely different scenario than the pre-trib allegations. Here it states there is one resurrection at the seventh trumpet in which God would give reward unto: 1) His servants the prophets 2) And to the saints 3) To them that fear his name, small and great Here we see the time frame for this resurrection to be at the seventh trumpet and we also see that this is not specific to a certain grouping of saints, but one that would include all the saints who were in the graves whether they were small or great, plus it includes the prophets which means it is not even restricted to New Testament saints, but from the time of Adam down to when this seventh trumpet sounds which is at the Second Coming, at the end of this age. There are more scriptures that confirm this: In Matthew 13 Jesus gives us the parable of the wheat and the tares. He says let both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest...He does not say 'let the tares grow until the end of the age but let the wheat be caught away before the end of the age. No, he says let them both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST. Matthew 13:37-43 he gives the interpretation of it so we don't have to speculate as to what it means. He explains it here: 1) He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man 2) The field is the world 3) The good seed are the children of the kingdom 4) The tares are the children of the wicked one 5) The enemy that sowed the tares is the devil 6) The harvest is the end of the world (age) So lets see how Jesus said this would play out in verse 40: "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of THIS WORLD.' (AGE) The word 'world' is better translated 'age' in that the world is not destroyed at the second coming. But notice that he specifically says the tares will be gathered and burned in the fire, not at the end of the NEXT AGE, which would be at the end of the 1000 year reign, but at the end of THIS AGE, which would be at the Second Coming. But also note that this is the same time the wheat is gathered into the barn as it says in verse 43 "THEN (at the same time) shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father..." So again we have a completely different scenario being depicted than that which is shown in the Pre trib doctrine. We have here the wicked and the righteous being rewarded at the same time AT THE END OF THE AGE, whereas the pre-trib doctrine states that some saints have been rewarded BEFORE the end of the age, and no wicked are punished until the end of the NEXT AGE...which would be the end of the 1000 years. So lets look at another scripture in Matt. 13:47 "Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind; Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked form among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Here again we have a scenario that is going to take place at the end of the age...not at the end of the next age. The distinction between 'this age' and 'the age which is to come' is shown when Jesus said they 'have no forgiveness in this age nor that which is to come...' meaning they will have no forgiveness at the Second Coming or at the White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years. But continuing on here notice what happens: 1) The net is let down one time and one time only 2) It is not drawn to shore until is is full of good and bad fish 3) When it was drawn to shore the good were separated from the bad So consider: 1) The pre-trib doctrine has a net that is let down one time before the tribulation to pick up PART of the good fish, i.e. only those who have lived and died from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture. 2)Then at the end of the tribulation the net is let down again to gather up another PART of the good fish which allegedly consists of the Old Testament saints. 3)They have no net let down for any bad fish until the end of the age to come, which is at the end of the 1000 years. There is hardly any resemblance of what Jesus said as compared to what the Pre trib doctrine puts forth. Jesus said the net was let down only one time...pre-trib says the net was let down 3 times. Jesus said this net was let down once at the end of the age...pre trib has a net before the end of the age, another one at the end of the age, and another one at the end of the 1000 years. Pre trib has no separation of the good and bad fish at the end of this age, for they believe no wicked will be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. There are many other scriptures to look at, but this post is probably too long already....Bless you all- Gary