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iamlamad last won the day on September 22 2014

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  1. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Readers beware! This false logic has been around for a long time. It is the DAY OF THE LORD (not the gathering) that Paul is talking about. His argument is, once one sees the man of sin revealed, they will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has started and they are then IN IT. But, Paul added one thing: the man of sin cannot be revealed until the departing takes place: the very gathering that Paul put as the THEME of this passage. Of course, if people falsely imagine that the "Day of the Lord" is synonymous with the rapture, they might buy into this false argument. Always remember, the "Day of the Lord" is a DARK day, where God comes to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. It is also "the day of His wrath" so the rapture will certainly take place before this day of His wrath.
  2. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Of course scripture does not forbid this, for it is truth and will certainly happen. Scripture forbids that HIS BRIDE be here. And the truth is, the Bride will be caught up pretrib. Of course you don't believe this, but it will happen anyway. Your disbelief will not stop it - but it may well prevent you from being one of those caught up. You seem to have problems with the timing of events in Revelation. And rightly so, for you will not leave them as John wrote them. If you leave John's chronology as written, when Satan's killing machine is at its peak, God begins pouring out the vials to SHORTEN those days. So Satan's anger and God's wrath will be concurrent. The above quote by you likens wrath with GT. You have equated wrath with "there never was and never will be" days which is GT. It is simple: while Satan's killing machine, using the Beast and False prophet and their armies, is at its peak, God will begin pouring out the vials of his wrath to SHORTEN those days. So while the Beast is murdering, God's wrath is poured out. Not only that, but when the 6th trumpet kills 1/3 of earths population, it is God's wrath. When the 7th trumpet brings on woe 3, it is God's wrath. Make no mistake, the days of GT will be CAUSED by the Beast and False Prophet forcing all to worship an idol and take a mark, but AT THE SAME TIME, the two prophets stop the rain, and God turns all fresh water into blood -so NO WATER TO DRINK - for the saints or for the sinners. All will suffer under both Satan's wrath and God's wrath. When God turns up the heat, all will suffer: saint and sinner alike. It will be a terrible time to be alive on earth. But it is God's plan that all that are His pray to be counted worthy to escape. Will it be God's fault if many simply refuse to believe in this escape plan God has? How could ANYONE mix up this awesome book so completely! You have no concept of John's or the Holy Spirit's timing: Get this straight once and for ever: John does not even start the 70th week until the 7th seal. So all you read before the 7th seal will be CHURCH AGE. The martyrs at the 5th seal are CHURCH AGE martyrs. You are correct in one point: the martyrs of the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of WILL INDEED show up in chapter 15. Why? Because those days of GT will BEGIN shortly after the warning God gives in chapter 14 not to take the mark. Complete MYTH, caused because you have no understanding of John's chronology. Worse, you imagine you must rearrange. Just know, ANY theory that must rearrange will be proven wrong. We don't know how much time is in God's "THEN." If you will notice, God does not give His warning not to take the mark until chapter 14. Believe it or not, there is TIME involved from the revealing of the Beast to chapter 14. As I said, we don't know how much time, because John does not say. What we DO know, is that it is the false prophet that causes terrible things to happen. And He does NOT show up at the same time the Beast is revealed. He will show up later. Again, we don't know how much later. Sorry, I don't make things up: you are much closer to that. Yes, OF COURSE Jesus told them to run. Did you just overlook chapter 12 when SATAN, the DRAGON goes after the woman? This is before the mark or image is created. Yes, they must run for their life, but NOT BECAUSE of worshiping an image, which will come later. Really, you MUST keep Revelation in the order it is written! I disagree. What CAUSES the days of GT that will be greater than any time before? Someone fleeing and someone chasing? No, that has happened many times in history. The days of GT will be greater than any other time, because Satan gives the Beast authority over the entire planet and all on the planet will be forced to choose between the mark and image, or losing their head. It is the SCOPE of this that will make it greater than any other. Did you ever read of the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD? Or even farther back in history when people were eating their own children because they were starving. That was indeed, GT, but nothing like the scope of what is coming, which will be worldwide. The great PRESSURE (tribulation) will be extreme thirst, hunger, and the decision when you are caught: take the mark or lose your head. And these events WILL NOT HAPPEN until after the False Prophet shows up. One thing you don't get: God will certainly NOT set any appointments for His own - but many believer will set their OWN because they will not believe in pretrib. In effect, they are setting their OWN. Did you not write that the A of D would come first? You are setting your OWN appointment. It is the departing that will come first. If no believer can endure, then no unbeliever can endure. But perhaps you mean, coming out alive. Indeed, God SAID that believers would be overcome. Now stop and think: you imagine believers will not be here, yet John disagrees with your theory. Believers WILL BE HERE and will be overcome. I cannot go on: you are so far from knowing John's chronology all I can say is, wait and see: you will find ANYONE who says some trumpet happens at some seal, or some vial happens at some seal, their theory WILL BE proven wrong. The truth is , NO VIAL will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded, and NO TRUMPET will sound until all 7 seals are opened. Any other theory WILL BE proven wrong.
  3. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    As I said, I doubt if you are watching for His coming. How could you when you believe something else must come first?
  4. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    You are already wrong in your first sentence. WHO SAID only one gathering is described? You? Sorry, I will take Matthew, Paul, and John over your theories. You are correct, Paul DOES give us the timing. The problem is, you did not understand Paul. "for that day will not come" What day? The Day of the Lord that they imagined had already begun. "until the 'apostasia' or departure occurs" Several of the first translations uses the word "departing" Paul is telling us that ..............the departing (gathering) must come first - the very thing He tells us in his first letter. " This means the Gathering Paul spoke of will not happen until after the A of D" No, it only means you don't understand the intent of the Author. Of course, if you don't know when God's wrath begins, how are you expected to know when the rapture is? They are all connected and if one is in error on one point, they will be in error on many points. The truth is, pretrib has it right, and Jesus can come at ANY MOMENT to gather those that are His. I, for one, am watching for His coming. I doubt if you are.
  5. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    I am saying that the dispensation of law ended. The dispensation of Immanuel began. When Jesus rose, the dispensation of grace began. This is NO WAY says there was no grace under law. But the New covenant IS a new dispensation with different rules. No, it happened back then. In revelation it will happen again. It is not a "law." Did you not read about the first Jerusalem conference? Did you not read where Paul accosted Peter because he was with the gentiles until some people came that recognized him, and he immediately moved back with the Jews - and Paul called him out on it. But to answer your question, they had lived the law for years. We might say, it was in their blood. These things take time to change. Remember what Peter said when he was told to rise and eat (the unclean animals)? Next, I would say that the gospel to the Jews was different than the gospel to the Gentiles. The Jerusalem conference proved that. They were Old Testament saints that got born again and became a part of the Jewish church. But that church ended and was replaced by the Gentile church.
  6. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Ah! Now you are saying that they REPRESENT the house of Ephraim and Judah. Just come out and say it: are they TWO MEN or are they not two men? Sorry, but John does not really tie the two witnesses to the house of Ephraim and the House of Judah. Is that more imagination? Again go back and look at what Daniel wrote about the 70 weeks: they are for HIS PEOPLE, meaning Old Covenant. The days of tribulation are to drive Israel back to God.
  7. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    You will only think it is warped until Jesus comes pretrib for those watching for Him. It is an absolute fact - and NOT a pointless matter: if He comes postrib, then most of Revelation will happen BEFORE HIS COMING. How then can ANY posttribber expect His coming TOMORROW? It is impossible. They will be expecting many other things to come first. No, I do not need any sign to know the rapture will come just before the 6th seal. Paul and John tell us this. It is not that difficult: I know the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and that they must wait for the very last church age martyr before Judgment comes. It goes without saying that judgment begins with the 6th seal. I agree posttribbers try to use signs. But the truth is, they lump them all together when in fact they are not together. There will be signs in the sun and moon at the 6th seal, the sign for the coming Day of the Lord, and then again 7+ years later, for Jesus' coming.
  8. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    NO, it is the groom coming for His bride. It is a picture on words of a Jewish wedding. The groom went to prepare a place for his new family. When it is finished, he comes for his bride....not to stay at her families house, but to take her to HIS HOUSE. It was customary for the time to prepare the "chuppah" or place for his bride would be up to two years. It was very customary to have bridesmaids that attended to the bride. It was their purpose to light up the path for the groom. Of course, being her friends, they would be invited to the wedding feast. There are many more points that fit perfectly with a pretrib rapture. Of course you will argue every point. That is just what you do.
  9. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    No need to: the spirit and soul are tied very tightly together, because ONLY the word of God can divide between. When anyone has been risen from the dead back into their old body, their soul is intact with the spirit. It is the SPIRIT that is the real person. It is the soul with all the memories and experiences that make one spirit different from another. When we look at another human, we are only seeing the temporary house they are living in.
  10. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Try Rev. 19. There is a wedding and after, a supper. And Jesus will return to earth AFTER the supper. Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
  11. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    There is a vast difference between being dead and being resurrected. Maybe you should consult what this story really says.
  12. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    I get it: you cannot answer the question intelligently, so you "cop out." It is not "retoric:" Paul tells us the rapture will come when people are saying "peace and safety." I think that term fits days like today better that days after the 70th week has wiped out most of earth's population. I also know the church must already be in heaven for the marriage and supper/ OF COURSE it is the issue: God caused Matthew to write about a gathering, and you jump on it and declare to all that it MUST BE Paul's rapture. Pretribbers look at all the evidence, such as WHERE this gathering gathers from, WHEN it takes place, and determine it cannot be Paul's rapture. It is therefore a DIFFERENT gathering. If you wish to imagine that Paul's rapture will gather from the fartherest reaches of heaven to the furthest reaches of earth, go right ahead on! However, we know that Paul's gathering will gather from under the earth first, and then on the earth. And we know from 1st and 2nd Thes, and Revelation, that Paul's gathering will come before the 70th week begins. It is up to God how many times He wishes to cover an event with scripture. He did say that He would gather all of Israel BACK to Israel in other passages: I chose to believe this gathering is for that purpose. This is only your opinion - I might add an opinion that cannot be proven - I choose not to believe it. Revelation makes prefect sense as written. I don't think God gave us authority to rearrange it to fit some theory. Most definitely it does: God chose to introduce John to the dragon first (chapter 12) because it will be the dragon behind the Beast and false prophet in proceeding chapters. When Satan in great anger goes after the "remnant" (the main load went out at the pretrib rapture) he will use the Beast and False prophet to accomplish this, as seen in chapter 13, and as carried out in chapters 13 - 19. If we read Paul, " For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them," it seems most likely that they are THINKING peace and safety and imagining that they are living in peace and safety. It is the opposite of "sudden destruction." The point then is, the rapture will come when people are feeling safe and at peace. That fits pretrib FAR better than posttrib.
  13. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Absolutely true, but the point is made, AFTER physical death, people still have full control of these areas of seeing, hearing, speaking etc. I might add, when the disciples saw Jesus walking on the water, they thought they were seeing a SPIRIT, not a soul! We ARE a spirit being, because God is a spirit being and we are made in His likeness. We possess a soul, which is our mind, intellect, will, emotions, ETC, because GOD has a soul with these same attributes.
  14. Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Of course this is just more of your theories that cannot be backed by sound exegesis. It is clearly written that Jesus went to heaven to prepare abodes, houses, mansions for us, and will then come and get us and take us there. You can ignore this passage if you choose, but it is still there. In fact, MANY people have been to heaven an seen these mansions and returned to tell us about them. Again, you can ignore all these testimonies if you choose. But then, since you don't expect to be in heaven during the 70th week, I guess you won't need a house there. The Bride of Christ will - and will certainly enjoy them during the 70th week. If a builder makes sidewalks of gold, how would you imagine He would build houses? "Mansions" was good enough for the KJV translators, so I will just go with them. Only in your mind, and only because you cannot believe the scriptures as written. Pretrib is the truth; there is simply no way it is heretic.