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iamlamad

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  1. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    If you notice, in Matthew 27 where Jesus rose, He resurrected the elders of the Old Testament: some were actually seen. But my point is, that caused and earthquake. In fact, it sets a precedent that when a resurretion takes place, and earthquake will take place. It is the same when the two witnesses are raised - but it is not them persay: they are raised when ALL the Old Testament saints will be raised: on the "last day" and at the 7th vial. i am convinced then, when the dead in Christ are raised, that will cause a worldwide earthquake. And that will be Paul's SUDDEN destruction. It is sudden; coming with no warning and happening around the world in the same instant of time. Paul goes on to show us that this sudden destruction earthquake will be the START of the Day of the Lord and His wrath. What you are missing is that this will occur just before the 6th seal in Revelation while the man of sin will not be revealed until chapter 11, 3.5 years later.
  2. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    Salty, if you wish to be left behind so you can see the man of sin turn into the Beast, I suspect God will give you your desire. As for most of the Body of Christ on earth, they will chose the escape all these things and fly away. My question to you is, since God has prepared a way of escape from His wrath, why are you so determined to go through His wrath? Would it not be much better to be in heaven during the time "all these things" are taking place on earth?
  3. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    Dougg, you should know, there will only be microseconds or less between the dead in Christ rising and those who are alive being changed and flying up to be together with the dead in Christ. It will all happen so fast it will seem as one event. The dead in Christ rising will start a worldwide earthquake, Paul's "sudden destruction" but those who are alive and in Christ will be snatched up just as the ground begins to shake. It will be those left behind that will be caught in this sudden destruction earthquake. there will be no escape because it will be worldwide. The truth is, Paul TELLS US when: his rapture will come just a moment before this sudden destruction earthquake that will start the DAy of the Lord and God's wrath. Your order is messed up, not following the scriptures.
  4. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    I cannot help it if you cannot recognize a parenthesis! That is on you, not me. The truth is, there will be FIVE events that start near the midpoint and go to the end of the week: 1. The city of Jerusalem will be trampled for 42 months. 2. The two witnesses will testify for 1260 days. 3. The fleeing will begin and last 1260 days. 4. Those that flee will be protected for time, times, and half of time. 5. The man of sin will get his 42 months of authority. Have you ever watched (or participated) in a race on a track, where because of the curved track, the runners have a staggered start: some appear ahead of others on their starting blocks. Well, these five events also have a staggered beginning: the city will begin being trampled perhaps 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. That would be because the MAN OF SIN will enter Jerusalem just before the midpoint (he must first arrived and be in Jerusalem to enter the temple which will be in Jerusalem) with his Gentile armies. (I believe Muslim armies.) Because he, the man of sin, shows us, suddenly the two witnesses show up, just 3 1/2 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and be revealed as the Beast of Revelation 13. They will begin testifying and will continue for 1260 days - which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that will end the week. They will lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, then be resurrected with all the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial that ends the week. This is what will happen, and the way it will happen. Therefore, 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis where John takes us on a SIDE journey down the path of the two witnesses through the entire last half of the week. But in verse 14, John snaps right back to the midpoint and sounds the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint of the week. Make no mistake here: the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven at the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God on earth. Ah! It's classical: posttribbers and prewrahters are forces to REARRANGE Revelation to fit THEIR theories. Sorry, no parenthesis in chapter 19. The church is there in heaven, having been raptured just before the 6th seal, and SEEN in the throne room in chapter 7. They are there in heaven for the marriage and supper, and then - THEN - Jesus descends to the battle, AFTER the marriage and supper have finished. The vials have the associated plagues and they will be poured out AFTER chapter 14! Your timing therefore is messed up. Its those pesky preconcived glasses again! I have a suggestion: throw all your preconceived theories into the trash and start over, this time following the TEXT as written! You will find Paul and John are in perfect accord; that the rapture is pretrib (the church seen in heaven as the great crowd too large to number) and the 70th week or "trib" starting at the 7th seal.
  5. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    I disagree. Your timing of events is messed up. People are thinking peace and safety TODAY. And the rapture will happen on a day just like today. the "falling away" is a poor translation: it will be a catching away as the church is "taken out of the way."
  6. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    Let's set the record straight once again - since you have muddied the waters. The Textus Receptus and the Byzantine Majority have it as the day of Christ, Christos. Other Greek Texts have it as Lord, or Kuriou. I look at it this way: Christ IS Lord, so Day of Christ or Day of the Lord are two ways of saying the same thing. Paul used Day of the Lord in his first letter, so I like Day of the Lord better. What were they worried about? What had gotten them so upset? First, they were going through a very difficult time of tribulation. It was TOUGH to be a believer in Jesus at that time. Then they either heard a prophecy or obtained a forged letter supposedly from Paul telling them that the Day of the Lord had come and what they were experiencing was in fact not just tribulation, but they were IN the Day of the Lord. Revelation was not written yet. Perhaps they did not know that from the start of the DAY it would be only 7 years before Christ would return in POWER to destroy the enemies of God. Paul tells us they were upset - greatly disturbed. Why? It is simple! In Paul's first letter, he showed them that the rapture could come FIRST, and as a trigger for the DAY. In short, they thought now that Paul had been in error, or else they had MISSED the rapture! I think almost anyone there would be upset! Paul could have just said, no, the rapture has not come yet, and you are not in the DAY yet. Instead, Paul gave them a sequence of events that anyone could know for SURE the DAY had come. How? When the man of sin would be revealed, all would KNOW the DAY had come and they were in it. That's how to know for sure the DAY has come: see the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews. Anyone that sees that would know for certain the DAY has arrived and they were in it. However, Paul tells them there is a restraining force preventing that from happening! In fact, Paul told them WHAT (who) that restraining force would be, and then wrote, "and now you know...!" I find it amazing after Paul told us that many STILL don't know, because they simply cannot understand Paul. Perhaps this was one passage Peter was talking about when he wrote, "in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest..." In fact, some on this forum wrest over this passage! Yet Paul TOLD US who the restrainer is! In verses 6-8 he tells us in very plain language that there is a force restraining the man of sin and preventing him from being revealed before the proper time - but at the proper time this restraining force would be "taken out of the way." All we need do is find where Paul wrote, "and now you know" and BACK UP and look for something "taken out of the way." Is that difficult? No. In fact, it is easy if we use the first translations into English. It was KJV that muddied the waters here. 2 Thes. 2:3 Geneva Bible (1560) Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition, Could a "departing" fit the bill as something that is "taken out of the way?" Certainly it could! And we can know this is Paul's meaning, because in the latter part of this verse we read that the man of sin is now revealed - proving that the restraining force has now been taken out of the way. What then is it that is "taken out of the way?" If anyone reads Strongs, he makes this real easy! If we look up the first half of the compound Greek word "apostasia" we read this: of separation of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,... of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken Physical: of distance of place Therefore we see that in verse 3 Paul gets the restraining force removed, and the man of sin revealed. Then writes that the reader now knows who or what is doing this restraining. It is the CHURCH. But the CHURCH will be "taken out of the way" - which is Paul's theme. "However that gathering doesn't happen UNTIL... the "man of sin" is revealed" Sorry, but it is YOU that have this backward, thinking "the DAY" and the rapture are synonymous terms. What does Paul tell us comes FIRST? It is the APO-STASIA: where a part of the whole will be removed spatially a distance away from the rest of the whole - and it will happen so fast that the rest of the whole will appear stationary! This is not difficult, unless one wears very thick preconceived glasses! Paul is clear then: the departing must come first - the one restraining removed or departed - and THEN the man of sin will be revealed, and then all those left behind will KNOW: the Day of the Lord has come. Now compare with Paul's first letter: Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming - at a time when people are thinking peace and safety. SUDDENLY a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves. And if we read Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..." we know that when the dead in Christ rise, that event will cause a worldwide earthquake! It will be Paul's "sudden destruction! The in instant AFTER the dead in Christ are raised, Paul gives us a paradigm: a comparison between two groups of people according to their lifestyle: for those living in the light of the gospel, they get "salvation" (raptured) and get to "live together with Him" (So shall we ever be with the Lord). But those living in the darkness, not born again, they get "sudden destruction." That would be the earthquake seen at the 6th seal in revelation. It will be worldwide because the dead in Christ will be found worldwide. Paul tells us this worldwide "sudden destruction" earthquake will be the start of the Day of the Lord, and the start of God's wrath. So we see this progression: Dead in Christ rise Those alive in Christ rise Day of the Lord begins. That is, the systematic destruction of the planet, exactly as the Old Testament verses on THE DAY tell us will happen. We see this destruction begin with the trumpet judments - which will all come with God's wrath. Paul is in perfect agreement in his two letters. But it seems people WREST with Paul's letters and find them hard to understand. It is those pesky preconceived glasses getting in their way! Sorry friend, but it is YOU that have this backwards. You are simply using preconceptions and not reading the text accurately. More salt please!
  7. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    I disagree. Around the world, when one "falls away" two or three are born again. The church is GROWING world wide, not losing. Soon the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in and we will hear a loud trumpet blast! And just as Paul said, it will come FIRST before the man of sin is revealed.
  8. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    Well, I doubt if God will allow those in heaven to "check in" on those left behind, else I would agree right now to check in on you and see how your theory is working out: trying to find water while trying to avoid losing your head. Good luck on that!
  9. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    You think that, but it is absolutely not truth. You have failed to recognize that Rev. 11:4-13 are written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology. The truth is, the two witnesses SHOW UP suddenly about 3 1/2 DAYS before the midpoint, testify for 1260 days - taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. They lay dead those 3.5 days, then are raised up at the 7th vial earthquake. Their earthquake is the 7th vial earthquake. Just to set the record straight, JOHN HIMSELF, backed by the Holy Spirit, shows us the start of "the DAY" at the 6th seal, before the 7th seal begins the 70th week of Daniel. This is not "men's doctrine," this is Holy Ghost doctrine. Again, Paul shows us a pretrib rapture, backed by the Holy Spirit. I suggest to deposit your theories into file 13. You may find yourself going against the Holy Spirit. That would not be wise. Did you not notice that Paul also taught that THE DAY follows hard after the rapture? Did you not notice that the rapture comes a moment before the Wrath of God begins, and said wrath begins at the 6th seal, BEFORE the trib? Therefore, if you wish to be left behind - if you are that determined to see the man of sin turned Beast - I believe God will give you your wish. For the rest of the body of Christ, they choose to go out on the first load. Those left behind will become a part of the "remnant" of Rev. 12. Those that choose to escape all these things will be shouting up and down the golden streets of heaven, while those left behind are trying to find a drink of water, while also trying to avoid losing their head.
  10. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" How strange: you read "THE DAY" in this sentence - yet it is not there. Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. This is one of several Old Testament verses in THE DAY. Do you see anything like the rapture event in this? I don't! That day can only be the day from verse 1. WHY? You are making an assumption that millions of people just won't make. Why does it have to the talking about the same thing? Were they scared of the rapture? Did you not read that they were very upset thinking THE DAY had come? If THE DAY equals the rapture they should have been shouting for the rapture should come at any second! But they were very upset. Why? Because Paul had taught them in person that the rapture would come BEFORE the Day. They thought they were IN the day and had missed the rapture. HOw many times am I going to have to show you this from Strongs? You are doing well, but just not going far enough: APO: G575: of separation of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,... of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken I did not make this up! I copied it straight from Strongs via Blueletter Bible. Whether you like it or not, Apostasia CAN MEAN a spatial departing where of a whole, some part is taken away. Again whether you believe it or not, THE CHURCH, the Bride of Christ will not BE HERE to see the Beast. If you wish to stay behind, I believe God will see to it. Huh? Does "gone from the midst" or "taken out of the way" seem to you to be a one by one event, over a long period of time? That does not make sense: in Paul's argument it must be a SIGNIFICANT and easily recognizable event. A one by one falling away just does not fit the text. However, a sudden departing of the Bride of Christ to heaven sure would fit.
  11. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    You are doing it again! "Paul goes on to say the day, the moment the Lord comes and the moment of the gathering," You are right, when He comes, as shown in 1 Thes. 4, the gathering takes place. But that is NOT "THE DAY" Paul is making reference to! The rapture comes first, then THE DAY (that dark day of desctruction) comes - as if the rapture triggers the day. In fact, it does. What does the Old Testament say about THE DAY? Someone wrote "why do you desire the day of the Lord? It is going to be a dark day of destruction!" Does that sound like the day of the rapture? It does not to me! One is darkness, one is light. The Day of the Lord is when God systematically begins to destroy the earth and kill the sinners on the earth. If indeed Paul meant a falling away (from what Paul did not specify) you have said it comes one at a time. How then can you equate one at a time with "taken out of the way?" Do you imagine these are saying the same thing? Kicking the football goal is far more like the rapture: instantaneous! In my mind, rapture fits far closer to "taken out of the way" than people falling away from the truth. Next, for every one that falls away from the truth, if indeed some do, more come to the truth! The church in general has been growing steadily from its inception. There are more believers now then ever before. The fact is, hidden in the word "apostasia" the entity doing the restraining being "taken out of the way." That is fact whether you believe it or not. Your timing is far far off: this gathering of Paul will take place before the Beast is recognized. After all, it comes pretrib. Like it or lump it, it is truth. I'm out of time.
  12. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    Where we will disagree. In Matthew 24, Jesus begins where they were then. Verses 4 through 12 are church age events. Jesus does not get to the "end" until verse 13. Then, Jesus jumps over the first half of the week, and in verse 15, is right at the midpoint of the week. After all, Jesus is giving only a bare outline. These verses then, 24:4-12 cover seals in through 5 in timing: the church age. Just before the DAY starts, the signs in the sun and moon are seen, with the moon turning blood read. Seal 6 begins the Day of the Lord and God's wrath. Some say it starts with the first trumpet. I would not argue that. That way the signs in the sun and moon will show for a little time. The first half then of the week goes from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet, including all 6 trumpet judgments in the first half of the week. At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews. The daily sacrifices will cease at that point. At this time Adam's 6000 year lease ENDS, and suddenly the devil has no more legal hold to earth - so the kingdoms of the earth are taken from him and given to Jesus Christ - the rightful owner. At this time also, Michael drives the devil down from the heavenlies to earth where he is very angry. Also at this time those in Judea begin to flee. And Satan goes after them. But God protects them, so Satan turns to those that believe in Jesus - that is the REMNANT left that believe in Jesus - for the main load went out at the pretrib rapture! Then John sees the Antichrist Beast rise up from the water. Why then? Because when the man of sin declared he was God, or shortly thereafter, Satan possesses the man of sin and he becomes the BEAST of Revelation 13. Some unknown time after, the false prophet shows up. Then the image is erected, and the mark created, and soon after, the two begin to enforce worshiping the image or losing their heads - and taking the mark or losing their heads. So the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of begins. In Revelation this is now somewhere in chapter 14 or just after - between 14 and 15. In chapter 15 we see those beheaded begin to arrive in heaven. When this killing machine reaches a peak, God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath, which will SHORTEN those days of GT. The 42 months promised the Beast will continue, but the Beast and his armies will be helpless. Finally the 7th vials ends the week. But at that moment, the Old Testament saints rise - on "the last day." Probably those beheaded will rise at the same time. The two witnesses will rise at that time - for they too are Old Testament saints. So the 70th week ends. But Jesus is still in heaven for the marriage. the marriage has had to wait for the Old Testament saints to arrive. My guess is, it will take 30 days. Perhaps during the marriage, the signs in the sun and moon will be seen again, but this time they will not be seen at all, for total darkness will be upon the earth. then, after the supper, Jesus, the angels and the saints will all return to earth on white horses. He will light up the dark sky as lightning! Sorry, but prewrath theory does not fit what John has written so clearly.
  13. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    "So....there are then NO SCRIPTURES that prove your point." Joe, why would I say that if there are no scriptures? OF COURSE there are scriptures - it is just that you have not found them yet. First let me say that most pretribbers could not show correctly where the rapture is in revelation or even where the "trib" is in revelation, but they still believe it because it is what they have been taught. One way to know is to find a scripture that is time sensitive and in the correct order and then if the rapture and the "trib" can be found in such a passage, we would all know whether pretrib is right. But IS there a passage on the end time events in the right order and including both the rapture and the "trib?" Some think the Olivet discourse answers this nicely. I disagree. It does not show us the start of the "trib" but only the midpoint. I further disagree because the gathering in that discourse is not Paul's rapture. So where are the scriptures that show a pretrib rapture. I think Revelation fits that requirement. I know where the rapture will be in Revelation and I know where the "trib" begins in Revelation, and the rapture comes first. However, these points are not easy to see and a casual reader will miss both. When I study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, I see Paul's scriptures fitting perfectly before the 6th seal. I see the 5th seal as the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for the final church age martyr before judgment. that to me is a big hint for the timing of the rapture. Then shortly after John saw the 6th seal events take place in his vision, he saw a large crowd too large to number in heaven. Then after that he was the start of the 70th week. I have proved these things to myself, but for others? They might not know that Revelation is in perfect order as it is. They might not believe that the earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction." They might not believe that when John tells us the day of His wrath has come, that it comes right there at the 6th seal. They might not believe that God marked the 70th week with 7's. I trust John when He writes that the time for the marriage has come - RIGHT THEN, not later. I believe John when he tells us that the supper will follow the marriage, IN HEAVEN before Jesus ascends. Other don't believe these things. I trust Paul when he tells us that His coming triggers the start of the DAY. Others don't seem to see that. I believe Paul when he tells us that his rapture delivers us from the wrath just before it hits. I believe Paul that God's wrath will come instantly after the rapture. Again, I see that is just before His wrath at the 6th seal. I believe Luke when he tells us there is an escape from these things to come. I think this escape would include the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week. Paul tells us, since we are justified by His blood, we are saved from His wrath. Just by this verse I know the rapture must come before the 6th seal. I believe John when he tells us that God will deliver us from the hour of temptation that is coming. Therefore, when I see all these end times scriptures, only pretrib fits. OF COURSE pretrib will also be before His wrath, for that is scripture. But pretrib also means before the 70th week of Daniel begins. Sorry, but for the above reasons, the day of redemption for the church will be at Paul's pretrib rapture. "Scripture says nothing about this Day being before the GT, or before the 70th week......Unless of course there are "TWO Days of Redemption"." OF COURSE there is more that one day of "redemption." the church comes on one day. The 144,000 have their day. Those that will get beheaded will have their day. The Old Testament saints will have their day. These are NOT all on the same 24 hour day. To say that the Gospels are not for the church in any way is absurd. I did not say they are not FOR the church. I said they are not pointed towards the church. The church we are a part of did not exist then! Of course the church LOVES the gospels. They are amazing and wonderful. And of course we follow the commands of Jesus because they are for all. Jesus HEALED at least one Gentile. But the end times scriptures? No, they are for the Jews. You should know that because Daniel said it was for HIS people: the Jews. Jesus proved it was for them because He mentioned the abomination that will divide the week. If you can find ANY scripture that shows this 7 year period is FOR the church, show us. ""come unto me, ALL YE that are heavy laden" Of course this scripture is for ALL just as Jesus said: Jew or Gentile. But How about this one? "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." How about this one from the Olivet discourse? Luke 21: But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. Can you see the church in this verse? No, this was Jesus speaking of the end of the JEWISH age, that is the 70th week. If you say that Math 24 is only for the Jews for example, then will only the Jews experience the wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, pestilences, famines, earthquakes....etc, etc....... you make a very good point here, but in fact, Jesus was talking about the world here, NOT THE 70TH WEEK. He had not yet arrived at the end times. These are world events BEFORE the 70th week, proved by His words, "the end is not yet." This is your best point so far, but it does not make your case. will only the Jews SEE the AoD Another good question. My guess is, it will be broadcast worldwide. But like most cameras today that are online, most Gentiles will not be paying any attention to what is happening in a Jewish temple. Only those in Judea will flee to the mountains. Revelation covers the 70th week, but also much more. I believe the world will be fooled by the Beast just as John tells us. I think the days of GT will be almost world wide - as in the Mark and the image. Others certainly disagree on this point. All these things will CERTAINLY be in the Middle East nations. Again we disagree on many points.
  14. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    Hi Joe! Have not seen you for a while. What we must do for every scripture is see who WHOM is being addressed. You are assuming that these scriptures are referring to the church. Since in the gospels Jesus was talking to Jewish men, why would you assume that? I submit that the Olivet discourse is Jesus telling them about the end of the JEWISH age, which is none other than the 70th week of Daniel. There will be PEOPLE there, Jews, Hebrews, Gentiles and even believers in Christ that were left behind. Will some Jews get "redemption?" Of course they will! Will some Gentiles get "redemption" during or after the 70th week? Of course they will! The church, however will get redemption FIRST, because we are caught up before the 70th week begins. Where do I find this? Putting all the end times scriptures together I can come to no other conclusion. OF COURSE Paul was speaking to the church in Ephesians. We KNOW most of the Jews and Hebrews are still rejecting Christ and will go through their 70th week - because God created it JUST FOR THEM. It is THEIR week. His purpose is to crush Israel so thoroughly that they have ONLY GOD to call out to - and then He will come.
  15. iamlamad

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    I will answer this only for the readers: Because of the context, "apostasia" has to have the same meaning as the one restraining or holding back or preventing the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is God until the proper time (the exact midpoint of the week). Translating apostasia as a falling away cannot meet this requirement. Next, in Paul's argument, he is explaining that they are NOT in the day of the Lord, and how to know when the Day of the Lord has come. First, according to Paul, there must come a very significant departing. If it was the rapture, would that be sufficient that all who read Paul would recognize it as what Paul was meaning? I think so. Perhaps half of the world's population will suddenly disappear! That would be VERY significant. On the other hand, Paul could not have meant a one by one falling away (from what Paul did not tell us) because in this scenario NO ONE would know how many would have to fall way to be "significant." The sealing? For those that read and believe what they read, we all know the sealing is for those Hebrews that will be left behind at the rapture and are sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments. No Gentile believers will be sealed. The big question is, WHY were they left behind? John did not tell us! But we can guess that at the time of the rapture they were NOT born again! Could it be that the rapture event convinces them that Jesus really WAS their Messiah and after the rapture they BECOME believers?
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