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iamlamad last won the day on February 25 2017

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  1. Where else in the Scriptures is there ANY reason AT ALL for God to split off any portion of the 70 Sevens and put a gap of almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS in between? It is very simple: the FINAL week ends the Jewish age, with the church sandwiched between then and our future when the week begins. Again, don't take my word for it: go back and examine Dan. 9. It was Daniel, by the Holy Spirit, that put a GAP between the 69th and 70th. Then when you understand that the ENTIRE 70th week is in Revelation, that is added proof. It was not just the Christian Jews that escaped; Christian Gentiles would have escaped too - if there was any. In your weak analogy, why would you need to split the half of an apple in half again?! It's already BEEN split in two! You imagine the week was split When Christ died and rose from the dead. However, Paul and John show us an event that will divide the week (you say again) in our future. According to you, there is only a half an apple in the future: right? Well, when the man of sin enters the temple, that event will fulfill Dan. 9:27, and divide the week. Therefore the week will be divided TWICE! There is your quarter of an apple. I know, you don't think anything in our future is going to divide the week because that part is history. There is just something about division: it seems the WHOLE must be together when the division takes place - if we want to end up with two halves. In your argument then, God must have added a gap to push the SECOND HALF of the week into the future! This must be so for the five mentions of the 3.5 year period of time in Revelation. (As you said: we are still in the middle. Well, I think God pushed the entire week into the future, not just half of the week. the second half of the Seven resumes, and it won't resume until the Messiah returns and once again offers the Kingdom to Israel! HOW can you say this? Jesus does not return (to Armageddon) until AFTER the week has ended. Remember, His coming is in chapter 19! This is after the seals, trumpets and vials are finished. Daniel actually gives us info on the first half of the week: Dan 11: 36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. Daniel 12 is about the same timing as Rev. 12 The midpoint of the week on to the end.
  2. So you find ONE WORD (Desolate) in Matthew and imagine it relates to Daniel 9:27. That is a HUGE stretch. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (7 SEVENS), and threescore and two weeks (62 SEVENS): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after (the 7 SEVENS and the) threescore and two weeks (69 SEVENS)(Note that he did NOT write "in the 70th," but AFTER the 69: He, Daniel, is inserting a gap: what follows is AFTER the 69 but BEFORE the 70th - showing us THINGS HAPPEN in this gap) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people [of the prince that shall come] (this portion between the square brackets is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE; as such, it has no part in the subject of the sentence) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (they did: Titus didn't, but his soldiers did) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (the sentence in Hebrew doesn't stop here) 27 And he (the he that came and destroyed the temple: Jesus does not fit the context here: he did not stop the sacrifices; they continued on until 70 AD) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(here Daniel ends the gap: the 70th week begins here): and in the midst of the week he (the man of sin Paul talked about) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Beast of Rev. 13) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (the conclusion), and that determined (the judgment upon the Jews [God is going to completely shatter their power: they trust in their IDF]) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews of Jerusalem). Did the sacrifices continue on after Jesus death? Certainly they did. Did the sacrifices cease after Titus' soldiers destroyed the temple? Certainly NOT. In the new Testament, Jesus quoted Daniel and spoke of the abomination that Daniel wrote of. Jesus then said that when people SEE it - the abomination - they are to FLEE. We see that fleeing in Rev. 12:6 PROVING that Daniel was not talking about Jesus, but about the Beast of Revelation. God was NO LONGER ACCEPTING THOSE SACRIFICES! Did I say anything about God? GOOD GRIEF, Charlie Brown! You know as well as I that the sacrifices in the temple CONTINUED ON until 70 AD. You have to imagine that Jesus stopped them. I am convinced you also know they are going to START AGAIN when Israel builds a NEW TEMPLE! It's very simple: the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, NOT KNOWING He already came and made the ultimate sacrifice. Paul and John both TELL US there will be new temple. And with that new temple the daily sacrifices will begin once again. However, when the man of sin enters the temple, those sacrifices will STOP. John tells us that an angel will sound the 7th trumpet to mark that time in heaven. Then a second or two later those in Judea that see it will flee. But, your mind is made up, and I'm wasting my time. You and I can read the same scripture and come up with two different ideas about what that scripture is saying, because of preconceptions of all the other scriptures. Just so you know, Jesus Christ, the head of the church said these words to me when I read "midst" in Daniel 9:27: "You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation..." IF you would believe that was Jesus, you could learn something: there IS a midpoint of the week clearly marked in Revelation. If there is an exact midpoint, then there is the first half and the second half there also - and John proves this. He also said: "in fact, you could find the ENTIRE 70th WEEK 'clearly marked.'" Think about it! Jesus Christ, the head of the church said that we could find the entire 70th week clearly marked in Revelation. And I can assure you, the 70th week is marked by 7's. But, since your mind is made up, I am wasting my time. I am only here for the readers anyway! Have a blessed Christmas!
  3. It IS the Holy Spirit - but He does not leave. Oh, He leaves in the believers in the rapture, for He has promised never to leave; the problem is, the moment after the rapture there will be no believers with Him inside: he will have no one to work THROUGH for a while, and this while will give the man of sin time to be revealed. I suspect after the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be here - but only as He was here under the Old Covenant. People can still be drawn to God. If you want to know what Michael does, at the midpoint of the week, at the sound of the 7th trumpet, He goes to war with Satan.
  4. I don't think they actually SEE Him coming. Most people don't think Jesus will be visible to sinners on earth: He will remain in a cloud. But they recognize all the signs for the start of the day, and they are right. No wonder they are scared. But do they actually SEE Jesus' face? John does not say this. You can say a moment or a second, but it's still before the sixth seal, which is during the 5th seal. Yes, I will agree, the church has been at the 5th seal all this time as martyrs are added. The 6th seal is still future. However, the 5th seal gives us a strong hint: they are told they must wait for judgment (the 6th seal) until the very last martyr will have come in. That is going to be at the rapture. The moment after the rapture, the next martyr will be a Day of the Lord martyr. So in effect, they are told they must wait for the rapture and THEN judgment will come. But by that time they will be included in the rapture. So the church is AT the 5th seal time, then the rapture will come and will trigger the DAy of the Lord - the 6th seal. I get this timing from 1 Thes. 5. Paul gives us timing information there. Remember Paul wrote in his rapture passage in 1 thes. that God is not going to set any appointments with His wrath. WE get caught up; wrath is for those left behind. Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord, then the "sudden destruction," and then no appointments. Paul is showing us that the moment after the dead are raised, WE get caught up, but those left behind get caught in Sudden destruction which STARTS God's wrath. The only place in Revelation that fits Paul in 1 Thes. 5 is just before the start of the Day of the Lord - the 6th seal. It was no mistaken then that John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter in Revelation. So what if Matthew mentioned the quake first? Rev. 11 tells us of a great earthquake when the Two witnesses rise. Actually, it is not JUST the two witnesses - I think the Old Testament saints rise at the same time - the time of the 7th vial where that worst earthquake EVER hits. It will be when God raises those bodies who died before the flood. The atoms or other particles that once made up those bodies could be spread thousands of miles, and could be hundreds of miles deep! When God instantly brings those bodies together, it is going to cause the world's worst earthquake - just what John describes. So - Yes, I am saying that the rapture will cause an earthquake. However, you pointed something out: God could not raise those at Jesus death until He rose. But God wanted the earthquake at His death. It is my believe that God put those bodies together and caused that quake, but they could not rise for 3 more days. It is only my opinion. There is not a great earthquake at the 5th seal You have to think this through: Several people who have had visions or supernatural dreams of the rapture speak of an earthquake the moment they are caught up. The dead in Christ will be raised SO FAST: and then those alive and in christ follow so fast after, the ground will only BEGIN to shake before we are caught up. Only those left behind will be caught in this earthquake. This is why I say the rapture is only a MOMENT before the earthquake. I also write frequently that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. I think the earthquake starts the Day of the Lord. However, some think it is the SIGN that the day is soon to follow. I would not argue that point. Many people thinks He comes AT the 6th seal. I think He comes a moment BEFORE the 6th seal.
  5. Then you have a real problem: HOw did the man of sin get revealed in verse 3b? Could it be you are not understanding Paul's intent here?
  6. Isn't it clear that Paul said that the Lord can't come to get us until the man of sin is revealed and then He comes for us? What was it that was upsetting them? They were beginning to believe that the Day of the Lord - you know, that DARK day of destruction where God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world - had already come and they were IN IT. But what was so upsetting, they had Paul's first letter where Paul hinted very strongly that the rapture of the church would come before the Day of the Lord. (I challenge you to study 1 thes. 5.) Question: does Jesus COME for the Day of the Lord? NO! Study the 5th and 6th seal - the change from church age to judgment. Do you see any coming there? Well, there IS a coming, but John was not shown it, so it does not show up. In 1 Thes. 5, Paul tells us the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. So there IS a coming for the rapture, but Jesus comes only to the clouds, not to the earth. It is NOT his Rev. 19 coming. So just before the 6th seal events, jesus comes, the church is taken out of the way, and the next moment it is DAY OF THE LORD. Notice what Paul tells us: SUDDENLY - a sudden happened when people are saying peace and safety - suddenly the dead in Christ fly up from their graves! The raising of the dead in Christ is going to start a world wide earthquake. (Mat 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.) This earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." So a moment after the dead in Christ are raised, Paul tells us about two different groups of people and what happens in this next moment: those who are IN CHRIST will be caught up, and so forever be with the Lord. But those NOT in christ will be left behind in this worldwide earthquake - Paul's sudden destruction. It is ONE MOMENT in time for the righteous and the sinner; the church is caught up while the sinner faces sudden destruction. Then Paul tells us that this sudden destruction is the very WRATH of God! Remember, God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath: the appointments are to be set for the sinners. So Paul is telling us that WRATH follows the rapture. I like to say it this way: the rapture will TRIGGER the Day of wrath or the Day of the Lord. Therefore, by Paul I KNOW the rapture must come a moment before the 6th seal. Now, you quoted 2 Thes 2:5-8. Therefore you KNOW that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining him is taken out of the way. (Would God use such terminology for Michael? I don't think so!) So this is an absolute fact: the man of sin CANNOT be revealed unto the one restraining that revealing is gone: taken out of the way. Agree so far? Now, here is the problem with so many theories: notice carefully that at the end of verse 3, the man of sin IS REVEALED. (not in reality - but in Paul's argument.) Now, please tell us if you can, HOW IN THE WORLD did he get revealed? He CAN'T until the one restraining is departed or moved or gone or taken out of the way. It has been my argument therefore that SOMEWHERE in the verse 3a - the first part of the verse - we can find the restrainer "taken out of the way." Another proof that this was Paul's intent is in verse 6 where Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..." HOW, Paul? HOW can we know? Why would Paul write those words? I believe because for some reason - perhaps if Romans got ahold of his letter they would not understand - Paul DISGUISED the rapture so only those who got his first letter would understand. But we can know because HE TOLD US - but in a way that would take some study. He wrote, "and now you know" so readers would go back and find out HOW they could know. So is it POSSIBLE that "apostasia" could be used for the rapture? Strongs has proven it could. Next, it is possible that a falling away could be the restrainer "taken out of the way?" This would be VERY WEAK. So you wrote, "Isn't it clear that Paul said that the Lord can't come to get us until the man of sin is revealed and then He comes for us:. No, it is not clear at all! It is not at all what Paul is saying. It does not fit Paul's first letter either. Next, what is it that must come FIRST? It is the apostasia. Once the one restraining is taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin can be revealed. And here is Paul's argument in a nutshell: when someone sees the revealing - the man of sin declaring he is God - then they have conclusive proof THE DAY has come and they are no IN the day of the Lord. Therefore: Before we are taken two things must happen here: 1. a falling away 2. the man of sin revealed This theory is just not what Paul is saying. You should have said" Before the day of the Lord two things must happen here: 1. a falling away 2. the man of sin revealed
  7. At the rapture, a PART of the whole [population] will be SEPARATED from that whole by physical distance. It may not be the most common use of that word, but it can certainly fit the rapture. It also fits the context of the passage. Strong's wrote, "of separation." In a divorce, one SEPARATES from the other. AT the rapture, and part of the whole SEPARATES from the rest.
  8. Sorry, but your blog is probably no different than your posts here. Since John and Paul mention a temple, it is up to YOU to prove it is NOT an earthly temple. It is where the man of sin is going to declare he is God. The Church is judged first during the Seals This is pure speculation and not at all the intent of the Author. NO judgment comes up to seal 5, for they are crying out wondering WHEN Judgment is coming. In fact, God's judgment BEGINS with the 6th seal. It is the START of judgment and the START of the Day of the Lord. Since the 6th seal starts wrath, the church MUST BE taken out before the 6th seal. Therefore, the saints mentioned in Revelation after the 6th seal will be NEW believers (Gentile or Jew) and the Jews who will eventually believe in Him. The exception will be the 144,000 firstfruits. Israel is judged second during the trumpets Sorry but all of Israel does not make up 1/3 of the earth. So the judgment of the 6th trumpet must be worldwide.
  9. Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people. What exactly do you mean by "the trib.." I find Jesus saying: Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" To pinpoint what He was talking about He mentioned "tribulation here: 21 For then shall be great tribulation... WHEN is "then? It is after the abomination event that will divide the week. We know that during the church age there is "tribulation," but not any specific time. John said that he was in "the tribulation," in Rev. 1:9 (most English translations leave out "the" but it is there in all the Greek manuscripts.) It seems much of the church world associate "the tribulation" with "the 70th week." Both Daniel and Jesus spoke of an event called the abomination of desolation. Daniel tells us such an event will divide the week. He backs that up with two times mentioning "time, times, and half of time" or 3.5 years. John backs this half week up 5 more times, in days, in months and in years. Therefore, we can be ABSOLUTELY SURE that there will be a week of 7 years, and two half weeks of 3.5 years. Another verse calls this time "Jacob's trouble." We know Jacob had to work an extra 7 years for the woman he loved. Therefore I cannot understand why anyone would make such a statement: "Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people." Can you show us any kind of special "tribulation" in Revelation that is NOT INSIDE the 70th week of Daniel? Please, show us scripture. I agree, the 70th week is for Daniel's people. But reading the events of the 70th week it seems God uses the SAME PERIOD OF TIME to judge the world. But the Beast kingdom will reestablish order of a sort in the world after the trib, so that people can buy and sell again, and life will go on on a debased level. I could not DISagree more. A statement like this totally ignores John's chronology. There is some LITTLE time after the days of GT are shortened when angels pour out the bowls of God's wrath - some little time before the end of the week and then a little more before Jesus returns and captures the Beast and False Prophet. But when Jesus pours out the bowls, the beast's kingdom is pretty must FINISHED. He and his armies are rendered helpless. The ONLY think he will accomplish is to kill the two witnesses and perhaps send gifts. There is going to be a great earthquake to end the 70th week - an earthquake so great the mountains disappear, and all the cities of the world are destroyed. Thinking out loud: When the angel army of 200 million kill 1/3 of earth's population, this MUST be world wide, because Jews and Hebrews don't make up 1/3 of the population. I disagree with much of your post.
  10. Sorry, but this is just not what my bible says. The "Rapture" is the CHURCH being caught up - a mostly Gentile church. It is going to take place: When the final martyr of the church age has been murdered. (See Seal 5) When the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. (Rom. 11:25) WHEN will Paul's rapture take place? Paul tells us in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST before wrath. We see God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal, so Paul's rapture (the rapture of the Gentile church of today) will be just before the 6th seal and Day of the Lord. This is plain in scripture. It is almost impossible to see with thick preconceived glasses. Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ WHICH return? He is coming twice more. It is impossible to squeeze two scriptural comings into one - although SO MANY try. Paul tells us He is coming NEXT FOR the Gentile church (1 Thes 4 & 5). He will then come WITH the Gentile church as shown in Rev. 19, over 7 years later. there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance. This will be His THIRD coming; coming WITH the Gentile church what was raptured 7 years before. I also disagree with this concept: There is no "rapture" in Rev. 19. If I have missed it, please point it out. He is coming to Armageddon, to fight, not to catch people up. The latter will not go up in the Rapture There will be a gathering of the Jews and Hebrews, as told in Matthew 24, but no rapture. All the righteous Jews and Hebrews NOT a part of the Body of Christ (the church) will remain on earth in natural bodies as a part of the Mellennial Kingdom of Christ. AGain, if I have missed a scripture where Jews are raptured, so me. I do believe the 144,000 will be caught up, but there is no verses telling us that: only John showing them in heaven in chapter 14. Pre-wrath, but post-trib. Pre wrath is scriptural, post trib is not. What CAUSES "the trib?" What do you mean by "the trib?" Let's narrow it down to the days of GREAT tribulation Jesus spoke of. WHEN will these days be in the book of revelation? First, lets ask what CAUSES those days of GT? John tells us: forcing people too bow to an image, and forcing people to receive a mark, when they KNOW taking that mark will doom them to fire and brimstone forever and ever. Readers, can you SEE this? GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people to receive this mark, for they cannot buy or sell without it! Without much doubt, the only drinkable water will be found in stores, so people will be VERY THIRSTY. These things are what will cause the days of GT. So the question is, WHEN or WHERE in Revelation? First, Jesus said the days of GT would come AFTER the abomination. Jesus also told people to FLEE when they see the abomination. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6, so we can KNOW (no doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of MUST COME after Rev. 12:6. But, John does not tell us about the mark and the image until chapter 13, so we can KNOW (no doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of must come after chapter 13! But, God does not give His warning about taking the mark until chapter 14, so we can KNOW (no Doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of cannot come until AFTER the warning in chapter 14. How amazing then, we see the beheaded (those who refuse the mark) BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15. How then can anyone imagine days of GT in the seals? Well, it is only imagination, not scripture. For the readers: Perhaps you don't know how this "prewrath posttrib' theory got started. Mr. Van Kampen called up Mr. Rosenthal all excited and said, "I have found it!" He imagined he had found a secret all others had missed. So what was it he found? Well, he put two scriptures together (as if they were related) and suddenly a new theory emerged! Matthew 24 tells us of cosmic signs in the sun and moon that come AFTER the days of GT. But in Joel 2, cosmic signs in the sun and moon come BEFORE the day of the Lord. The order, then, as Van Kampen perceived it, would be Days of GT FIRST, THEN cosmic signs in the sun and moon, and THEN the Day of the Lord. Therefore, since he knew the start of the Day of the Lord was at the 6th seal, and the cosmic signs were there to prove it, the days of GT MUST BE before the 6th seal. So what is the problem with this theory? Just about everything. Neither of these men understood that these cosmic signs in the sun and moon will come TWICE: first for the sign of the Day of the Lord, (Joel 2 and Rev. 6) and then again for the sign of His coming (Joel 3 and Matthew 24.) We have then TWO different signs (the really are different) for TWO different events and at TWO different times - over 7 years apart. WHY are they different signs? For the 6th seal signs, the moon is red as seen at a lunar eclipse, and the sun black as seen in a solar eclipse. In other words, both the sun and the moon are SEEN (else how would anyone know the color?) In comparison, the signs AFTER the days of GT are very simple, neither the sun or the moon can be seen. Not even the stars can be seen. It is total darkness - yes, even at 12 noon, total darkness. THAT is the sign of Christ's coming as seen in Rev. 19. What am I saying? The rapture will CERTAINLY be prewrath, but it is also going to be pretrib or pre 70th week.
  11. Do I have to do your homework for you? Here is Strong's on APO: "of separation of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,... of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed of a state of separation, that is of distance physical, of distance of place My friend, this is exactly what will happen at the rapture. Now, when we add the standing part, one group out of a whole departs - while the whole is left standing. This fits perfectly with Paul in his first letter: the rapture comes first, then the Day of the Lord. I am going to believe Paul here. By the way, can you explain why several of the early translators used "departing?" You know, since it is a bad translation? Perhaps they knew better than you.
  12. 1. I agree, as long as we both understand, ownership does not mean physical possession. Jesus can and does remain in heaven after the kingdoms of the world have been transferred to Him. After all, He has granted the Beast 42 months of authority. 2. Are you saying that Christ, who has just retook the kingdom from Satan, that He now gives Satan authority to act for 42 months? I did not say it, john said it. It is good you understand this. It is scripture. And just WHO are these saints that Satan is given authority over for 42 months This is really very simple: all those LEFT BEHIND at the rapture plus all those who turn to Christ after the rapture. Are these saints the great multitude that no man could count that came out of the "Great Tribulation"...Rev 7:9. No, could not be, for they were seen in the throne room! God is not going to take the church up for a quick peek and send us down to His wrath! We STAY for 7 years. which you say starts at the 7th trumpet. Jesus said those days would start after the abomination, and Daniel tells us the abomination will divide the week. In Revelation we see those days begin after the warning in chapter 14. Good lord, there has to be billions of them. 7 plus billion today. The rapture may take half (adding in the kids). that would leave 3.5 Billion. Then the 6th seal will take 1/3 of that. Now there is only a little over one billion left for the days of GT. A few of these will be saints. It's harvest time: God is going to harvest with the just and the wicked during the last half of the week and after. Remember, the rapture comes BEFORE THE WEEK. A moment after the rapture and MOST OF THE WORLD will be unsaved. The rest of mankind, those who were not killed by these plagues, even then did not turn from what they had made with their own hands — they did not stop worshipping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. because during the trumpets, people just don't repent!! Does this include all alive on the earth? Or does it just include those that worship idols? I think the latter. EVERYONE on earth is not going to fit into this group. Some will have their names written in the book of life - but compared to the rest, it will be a small group. Sinners always outnumber the saints. Look, we have to work with what we have. I am not going to try and rearrange to fit some theory. Others find no problem with that. I think our difference here is that you think this verse includes the entire population. I don't think so.
  13. "Departing" is a good definition. Several translations used it. If you are departing, you are moving AWAY from something. It is not a moving away from a standing, it is a part of a whole moving way SO FAST the rest of the whole seems just standing in one place. You are right, it is very simple. You really should read Strong's on "Apo."
  14. If John was caught up to heaven, and we KNOW he was, then that was still church age! In fact it was around 95 AD in the church age. You know this! You are trying to make the transitional phrase "after this" or "after these things" MUCH more that the Author. John is only showing us that God was changing from one part of the vision to another. The truth is, if the church age ended in 4:1 then we would not have the rest of the book! John was very much alive through all chapters of Revelation, because it was a VISION received during his lifetime. Now, perhaps we should talk about VISION time: what time is John displaying during his narrative of the vision shown to him. We know it goes at least a thousand years plus past our time now. I see a distinct change of TIME between the 5th seal and the 6th: the 5th seal - martyrs of the church age while the 6th seal is future to us today. I guess you don't see that. Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are (the Churches), and the things which will take place after this. John CERTAINLY accomplished this. But take note that there is no "only there" so this does not preclude God from including some history while he is showing John things to come. Now, be honest with the scriptures: DID John write things that are still future to us today? In other words, DID JOHN accomplish what God said here? You know He did. The "after these" (Greek.. meta houtos) is the trigger that separates the parts of the outline of Revelation 1:19. This is opinion only and is not really truth. You THINK it is truth, I do not. Are there still martyrs: people being killed for their love of Jesus? this is the first occurrence which comports to the outline of the book as laid out by Yeshua. Opinion only: it must be proven be scripture. Are there still people being martyred? You know there are. Perhaps you should read the 5th seal again. it would take some real expositional gymnastics to derive that all 6 seals are opened in the time of the churches. NO one I know of thinks all 7 seals are opened. I agree with you here. I believe the church has been at the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age, all this time, and when the rapture comes, it will trigger the 6th seal events. By the way, I think you meant after all 7 seals. a forged letter claiming to be from Paul that the tribulation period had started. John used the term, "Day of the Lord." (I know some Greek Texts have "Day of Christ." Paul used "Day of the Lord" in his first letter. They were very aware that the rapture had not taken place yet.) Since the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 is the day of Christ and our gathering unto Him I have never seen biblical proof that "the day of Christ" is different from the Day of the Lord, or proof that the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture. Again, better to stick with what John said: HIS COMING are our gathering to Him. the departure of verse 3 and the taken out of the way in verse 7 pertains to the church I could not agree more! Good job on this passage! The departing comes first, before the man of sin is revealed. When people see this revealing, then they will know the DAY has arrived and it present. And that likewise comports with "after these" of Revelation 4:1. It was 95 AD when God dictated to John the messages to the churches. Yes, I agree, the rapture will be LONG after 95 AD. I have a suggestion: what was REALLY happening in chapters 2 and 3 was that God was dictating to John (in a vision) messages to give to the churches. Keep in mind, NINETY FIVE AD (some say 65) so chapters 2 is God dictating. John is writing AFTER THE FACT, so knows there is a change in what God is doing in the vision; no more dictating: that part is over; now God is going to change the vision and in the vision John is called up to heaven. (Did He REALLY go?) This is actual factual: what REALLY happened. Then, on the other hand, there are people that IMAGINE chapters 2 & 3 are the church age and the church age ends at the last verse of chapter 3. It is myth. John is still in the church age in 4:1: the ONLY thing that changed was God's direction in the vision.
  15. I know, many people insist the two witnesses testify in the first half, and the other 4 instances of the 3.5 years is for the second half of the week. I disagree. First because of where in John's narrative He first mentions them: right at the midpoint. Next, because it just makes sense that if four of the mentions of the 3.5 years is for the last half of the week, so they would be the 5th mention. Next, during the first half of the week, God will have 144,000 witnesses: He will not need two more. But the 144,000 are caught up to heaven around the midpoint of the week, so it will be during the second half of the week where God will want and need the two Witnesses. Finally, because Jesus Christ, the Head of the church said to me that every time He (through John's writing) mentioned an event that started at the midpoint and went to the end of the week, he always included the 3.5 year period of time. It was not some kind of "impression" nor did I eat too much pizza: He spoke words to me and I heard them.
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