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iamlamad

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iamlamad last won the day on February 25 2017

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  1. It is strange you don't understand it, for it is what untold millions of believers today believe. Agreed: those that are alive and "In Christ" won't go first - it is the DEAD in Christ that goes first. But it is almost a moot point, because the time between the dead rising and those who are alive rising will be a very short time indeed, perhaps milliseconds. What have I added? There is ONE (1) (Count to 1) resurrection for the just. Jesus of necessity was a part of that resurrection, for He was Just. His was called "the firstfruits" meaning there will be more to follow. OF COURSE then He was the first to be resurrection in this firsts or most honorable of resurrections! ALL the righteous must be in this first resurrection. Our difference is, you imagine it is a one time event that will take place after the tribulation. I don't. Your theory doesn't fit all the end times scriptures. OF COURSE we are not without hope! Jesus gave PAUL the revelation of Christ in US, the hope of glory. Of course MUCH of what Jesus said fits all believers today, such as the beatitudes. However, most of His words on the end times was directed to the Jews. This is not a difficult concept. It is a truth of Scripture: the 70th week is for DANIEL'S people, not the church.
  2. Jesus was almost always talking to Jews about THEIR time. The Gentile church of today did not exist. The parable of the tares will come at the end of the 70th week of DANIEL. Go back and look: it is for DANIEL and HIS people. The 70th week or "the trib" as some say has nothing to do with the church. The church will be gone. It is at the END when the parable of the tares takes place. Perhaps it takes place at the sheep and goat judgment, or at the moment Jesus descends. It has nothing to do with the church or the rapture of the church. My rapture theory is Paul's rapture theory because he wrote it. You said it has nothing to do with "the tribulation." I disagree. I think the rapture is the TRIGGER for the start of the DAY, and when the DAY starts, that is the trigger for the start of the WEEK. The DAY is wrath, and Paul talks about wrath. Therefore it IS connected. Did you notice, just 3 verses after paul's classic rapture verse about those alive being caught up, Paul mentions the Day of the Lord. just two verses between. Why would Paul do that? Because the rapture and the DAY are back to back events that cannot be separated. The rapture ENDS the age of grace. The "time" or dispensation then becomes "the Day of the Lord." The age of the church will be over. Then when Paul tells us about those who are alive and in Christ getting "salvation" or being raptured, while at the same moment those not in Christ get left behind and suffer the sudden destruction. Immediately then Paul talks of God setting no appointments with His wrath. Why? Because WRATH (judgment) follows the rapture. The "wheat" will be the Jews and Hebrews that make it through. One third will make it.
  3. I would only suggest that doctrine must take in ALL scripture, not just chosen verses. For example, what are you going to do with 1 Thes. 4 & 5 that show the rapture of the Gentile church of today coming only one moment before the wrath of God begins? Then God's wrath begins, according to John, at the 6th seal. Those scriptures together put the rapture before the 70th week begins. That is why untold millions believe in a pretrib rapture. Then, add to that - John SAW the raptured church already in the throne room of heaven in the next chapter in Revelation - the great crowd too large to number. Then add to the the other scriptures that show us God is not going to have His church here during the days of His wrath. It all spells "pretrib." Therefore, since the Gentile church of today did not even exist when Jesus made those comments, I MUST conclude that His comments on "the last day" are not referencing the Gentile church of today. More proof: in Rev. 14 the 144,000 are seen in heaven. How did they get there? John does not tell us. I can only conclude they too were raptured - somewhere around the midpoint of the week. Now, concerning the days of great tribulation (GT) that Jesus spoke of - WHERE are those days in Revelation? Did you notice that the beheaded don't even begin to show up until chapter 15? Those days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not begin until after the warning not to take the mark in chapter 14. Why then would John show us people coming OUT of GT years before he STARTS the days of GT that Jesus spoke of? The truth is, he did not. In chapter 7, before the 70th week begins, John was not taking about the days of GT that Jesus was talking about. Did you notice that those two words "GT" was NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He had to add that the days He was talking about would be WORSE than any other time ever on earth. But John just used those two words - GT. Did you also notice that John used those two words together in his chapter on the letters to the churches? It was directed to a church and to people existing at that time - around 95 AD! John CERTAINLY was not intended that God would keep the people in that Jewish church alive for 2000 years so they could face the days of GT that Jesus spoke of! No, the truth is, there has been, was in John's time, and will be again, days of GT that are in the church age. When martyrs are being killed, it is certainly GT for them! How could it get any greater? They cannot be killed twice! All John is telling us in chapter 7 is that at the time of the rapture, there will be days of GT - meaning, saints will be martyred around the planet. John was not in any way making reference to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. Beside, although the number of beheaded will seem great - perhaps more than the 6 million killed in the holocaust - it will CERTAINLY not be a crowd too large to number. Consider, we have had close to 50 generations since Jesus ascended. The last few generations of believers could be many hundreds of millions of believers. When all these generations of believers who have passed rise up, and then the generation that is alive in in Christ added - it will be a crowd too large to number - not for God, of course - but for John. It is going to be a crowd of many billions. The number of martyrs of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will be very small in comparison. It will probably be small in comparison to those martyrs of the church age under the altar at the 5th seal. In other words, make no mistake here: that great crowd, too large to number is OF COURSE the raptured church. The timing fits what Paul wrote, and the size of the crowd leaves no doubt: it must be the just raptured church - raptured just before God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. That last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. Not sure what you are getting at: "last day" vs "last days." I will agree, there will be a resurrection after the 1000 years, but that will be the resurrection of the damned. The resurrection Jesus spoke of at the last day will most certainly be the last 24 hour period of the 70th week of Daniel that finishes out the time of the Jews and Hebrews. The 7th vial will be poured out to end the 70th week and end the last day. And that is when God will raise up the Old Testament saints - including those before the flood. God forming those bodies again as they were before they died - will cause a HUGE earthquake - the worst ever earthquake - exactly like we see at the 7th vial. The particles (Atoms or quarks) that used to make up the bodies of those before the flood could be separated by thousands of miles - in all directions but up. The earth will quake violently when God raised them up. I am trying to tell you that the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14 -17 is the resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20 as the rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years. Sorry. I hear SO MANY try to make the 7th trumpet the last trumpet, I suspected that was your meaning. Indeed, I AGREE with this. It is the resurrection for the just. Our difference is, you are trying to force TIMING on that resurrection, when there is none. It is written in chapter 20, but it does not all happen in the timing of chapter 20 - that is - after the 70th week has finished. Did you catch that? "the last day" has to have a reference, such as the last day of the feast, or the last day of the age. Most bible students agree it is the last day of the age - being the last 24 hour day of the 70th week of Daniel. The angel told Daniel that 70 weeks (of years) were destined for Daniel's people - all the descendants of Jacob. Does that mean time ceases to exist after the 70th week? No, it only means one "age" ends and another begins. One dispensation ends and another begins. Here it will be the age of man ruling earth ends and the age of God ruling the earth as King begins. In other words, that famous "last day" comes and goes, but days continue on. It was only a "last day" of one age or dispensation. That last day ends at the 7th vial. The 70th week of Daniel is OVER at that time. But notice, Jesus has not returned! No, the events written in chapters 17 and 18 take place AFTER the week has ended and BEFORE Christ returns. The events of chapter 19 take place also - the marriage and supper - before Christ returns. But finally, in the last part of chapter 19, Jesus descends to the Battle of Armageddon - WITH His saints. They were in heaven for the marriage and supper. In the first verses of chapter 19 all those that will participate in the marriage are already there - in heaven. HOW did they get there? WHEN did they get there? The answer is, different groups got there at different times. And ALL are there before Jesus descends. The truth of scripture here totally destroys a posttrib rapture, if people are honest with scripture. At the time of this resurrection when the dead in Christ rise is the time of the rapture. This is without moving anything or adding stuff to support a made up doctrine. I beg to differ: you are thinking that all involved in that resurrection are resurrected at one time - and at the timing of chapter 20. You are mistaken. John writes of it in chapter 20, but really gives NO TIMING for it. The truth is, JESUS resurrection was a part of that "first resurrection." Remember, His was the "FIRST-fruits." Does that not hint strongly that there will be more to follow? Therefore I disagree with you.
  4. Sorry, I meant chapter 20, not chapter 12. Yes, I will agree we have been raised to sit together in heavenly places in Christ. But we both know our bodies are here on earth. This is speaking of AUTHORITY - not physical reality! We WILL get to heaven physically, but not until the rapture. And by that time, that is chapter 20, the church will have been in heaven for some time, and then returned to earth to sit on thrones. John saw the church in heaven in Rev. 7, before the 70th week begins. Therefore the resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place before the week even begins, proving that the first resurrection saints will come in waves separated by TIME. The words of Jesus in John 6 are very clear. Certainly they are, but to WHOM are they directed? You cannot take verses directed at Jews and imagine they are for the church, or vice versa. Jesus was talking to Jews before the Gentile church of today began - even before the Jewish church began! The truth is, the words of Paul as the when the rapture comes is clear, and is proven by John seeing the church in heaven. This "last day" could refer to the Day of the Lord - an extended period of time - or the last 24 hour day before the week ends. I suspect it is the latter. You err yet again! The 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the last day. Axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong. Sorry, but the moment you attempt to move the 7th trumpet from chapter 11 to chapter 16, I know your theory is wrong. You cannot move seals, you cannot move trumpets, and you cannot move vials. My question is, WHY TRY? Throw your theory out and form a new one leaving Revelation exactly as written. You cannot improve on perfection. Finally, I am not the one confused. I don't ever attempt to rearrange Revelation.
  5. You are imagining that because John wrote it here in chapter 20, then here in chapter 20 is where it must happen. Those seated on thrones are the raptured church plus the raptured Old Testament saints. But John does not even hint as to WHEN they actually rose. What he is telling us is that these three groups (add the beheaded) were all a part of the first resurrection. We have to go elsewhere in scripture to find out WHEN they rose. We must form doctrine from the entirety of end times scripture, not one isolated text. Some people imagine that the Old Testament saints - ALL of them - were raised when Jesus rose (Matthew 27). They are mistaken. Others think the Old Testament saints rise with the church. They too are mistaken. The rapture is limited to those who lived IN CHRIST. No Old Testament saints could, because Christ had not yet come. Most people forget about the 144,000. They were seen IN HEAVEN in chapter 14, shortly after the midpoint of the week. Then there are some, like you, that imagine all of these groups are resurrected at the same time - in the timing of chapter 20, which would be after the week has finished and after Jesus has returned. This is also a mistaken theory.
  6. Repeating again: "Repeating. Again: The false messiah, I mean the Red Dragon, will cast out of his mouth water (words) as a flood against the Church of the Lord JESUS." So PROVE TO US with scripture that the "woman" of Rev. 12 is "the church." That is all we have to see. Convince us.
  7. Mostly I just spent hundreds of hours meditating on these scriptures - waiting for God to reveal. I'm really slow: when He has revealed things, it took me FAR too long to get it!
  8. I am convinced (because of Paul's writing) that in John 6, Jesus was talking to Jews about THEIR resurrection. At this time God was going to "wait and see" if Israel would accept Him after His death and resurrection - whether or not He would turn to the Gentiles at that time. In other words, the church of which we are a part did not exist at that time. I see the Old Testament saints rise at the world's worst earthquake - at the 7th vial. Imagine God bringing together the particles of those bodies of saints before the flood. Those particles could be thousands of miles from the burial site. When God pulls those bodies back together it is going to cause one awesome earthquake - and we see such an earthquake at the 7th vial. At this time the church will have been raised for over 7 years. The two witnesses? Yes, if you study chapters 11 -13 and study the 5 mentions of the last half of the week - given in days, in months and in years - you will discover that ALL 5 are countdowns for the last half of the week - the 1260 days of the Two witnesses included. It appears at first reading that they are killed before the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint - but that is not the intent of the Author. 11:1-2: the man of sin enters Jerusalem, bringing his Gentile (Muslim?) armies with him. They will trample the city 42 months 11:3: The two witnesses show up, just 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet sounds and marks the midpoint. They will testify for 1260 days. 11:4-13: Written as a parenthesis (NOT IN CHRONOLOGY) where John takes the reader down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only - a SIDE journey not in John's chronology. Their 1260 days of testifying will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week, marked by the 7th vial. They will be killed and lay dead those 3.5 days. Then the 7th vial will be poured out, and ALL the Old Testament saints will rise - including the two witnesses: Enoch and Elijah - the two men who have never yet died. They are Old Testament saints and will rise with the rest of their fellow saints. 11:14-15: The 7th trumpet sounds, marking the midpoint. The 6000 years lease given to Adam will have expired and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth. He looses and Jesus gains the kingdoms of the world. Michael goes after Satan to cast him down. This trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare he is God - stopping the daily sacrifices (the temple will then be polluted) and dividing the week into two halves. 12:6: those in Judea begin to flee, having seen the abomination Jesus spoke of. 12:14: the woman (those who fled) will be supernaturally protected for 3.5 years. 13:5: The Beast (probably the man of sin now possessed by Satan) is given 42 months of authority. This is John's Chronology. Each mention of the 3.5 year period of time is for the last half of the week. Each verse of mention is the START of a countdown to the end of the week. NONE of these countdowns begins and ends in the verse of mention. Each will be parallel paths to the end through chapters 14, 15, and 16. Most of the countdowns will end at or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. Only the 42 months of authority will extend past that, because the beast will not be taken until Jesus returns some unknown time after the end of the week. It may be on the 1290th day. If people do not recognize or understand 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, their theory of the week will be messed up. The truth is, John was very careful with his chronology. New bodies? No, God puts their OLD bodies back together - then changes it into a resurrection body.
  9. Christ as the firstfruits. The church as second, third, fourth etc fruits - as the second wave: a crowd too large to number The 144,000 as the next wave, probably around the midpoint of the week. The Old Testament saints along with those beheaded and the two witnesses as the next wave - at or near the 7th vial.
  10. God never told John so John never told us. We can only speculate. I don't like to speculate on what is not written. Will then remain in their flesh and blood bodies forever? I don't know.
  11. You can think that if you wish, but you will be in error. The first resurrection covers the resurrection of all the righteous - including Jesus Himself. You are thinking of it as occurring at one point in time, while God thinks of it as the resurrection of the righteous - whenever they are resurrected. How about the two witnesses? Which of the two would they be a part of? WHEN will they be resurrected? Do they fit your theory?
  12. Sorry, but those people were already there in Rev. 19. Sorry, no catching up there. Some of them were in heaven in chapter 7 as the raptured church. John did not see their arrival, but saw them soon after their arrival. Others arrived at the 7th vial that is poured out on "the last day." Just so you know, God's throne is not floating in the clouds somewhere. It is on a planet. Enough people have been there and returned to tell us that. "Heaven" as it is used in scripture is more than just the air we breath and the expanse above what we breathe. Sorry again, but the entire 70th week is still ahead of us. Did you not read Paul where the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God - and stop the daily sacrifices? Did you not read Daniel how that event that stops the daily sacrifices will divide the week? Hint: there must be a whole week to divide it and get two halves - as seen in Revelation. As you said, we don't agree on much.
  13. You are thinking "first in time." And you are right, for the second resurrection comes a thousand years later. But you are also thinking this is a one time event that comes after the tribulation. In that you are mistaken. ALL the righteous have or will take part in this resurrection. If you wish to find the timing of Paul's rapture, you must get it from Paul - for no one else got his revelation. Error comes when people try to find the timing for the rapture of the church in the Olivet Discourse - or some obscure verse in the Old Testament. There is only one other place one can get a hint of Paul's timing, and that is the great crowd, too large to number. By the way, I am waiting for you to show us where the rapture is in relation to the start of the 70th week - in Revelation.
  14. Finally: you have written something I can agree with! 😉 "I think you and I will continue to disagree on these things."
  15. since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. NIV Yes, we will all be together at the marriage and supper. But we certainly will not rise up together. You are in error once again.
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