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The broader meaning of Israel comes back to the nation. The 144,000 witnesses are of the Jewish people. Jerusalem is a real city and part of the real area that God will rule from, return to and restore the people of Israel to. Just because we realize that God has not yet brought them back does not mean we do not know He will one day. That has nothing to do with a particular century, it has to do with Israel being dealt with in that seventieth week of prophesy, leading to repentance and restoration of a remnant. God has not abandoned Israel. Neither has He restored the unrepentant Israel in 1948. Can anyone cite a verse that says God will restore a still rebellious and unsaved Israel? No. That will be after the vengeance.

Quote My thoughts: Isaiah 66:8 (KJV) Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. This prophecy was fulfilled May 14, 1948. In 1948 Israel was just a sliver of land, they did not have control of the mountains spoken about: Ezekiel 36:8 (KJV) But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. Canada became a nation in 1867 one day, does that mean they are a fulfilment also? The time of birth pains is yet to come so that verse says AFTER that also!! Quote Israel didn't even have possession and control over Jerusalem. In the 1967 war [six day war], Israel took possession and expanded its borders, to include "the mountains." And also finally regained possession and control over Jerusalem. The second prophecy has been fulfilled. Some control, they can't even so much as pray in the holy place! The mountains does not say anything about which mountains. Once God brings them back after the tribulation they will control all the mountains! Quote The gathering of the peoples from the North; South; East and West has already occurred. Briefly, the majority of Israeli Jews are Russian Jews, that fled the North {Russia]. Remember the massive Israeli airlift of Ethiopian Jews back to their homeland? People gather all the time. The issue is when GOD brings them back. That is not until after they get saved. Period. Quote We see anti-Semitism heating up globally, in France, Russia and Europe, now the US. abandonment of Israel with this anti-Semitic Jew hating administration. Jews are and will be fleeing back to their homeland in groves, when this persecution speeds up. That is a signature of the end times. It will get a lot lot lot lot lot worse before the end. That is not a sign that God restored them! When He does, no one will utter a word against His people. Now most of the world utters plenty! Quote Is Israel living in peace and safety presently? Good question, I've pondered it myself. They have a high tech 400+ mile security fence [and expanding] protecting their borders from terrorists. They have 100.000+ rockets pointed at them. How could they be living in peace and security I've asked myself? An Israeli citizen, Israeli military officer, the very last Mayor of Jericho, and excellent Bible teacher, named Amir Tsarfatti, claims they have never felt more safe and secure. I won't get into their global leading technologies, military strength and intelligence service {Mossad]. I know. I listened to him and Hibbs. I like a lot of what they say, but they are hung up on that false 'already gathered back by God' nonsense. If they feel safe they are DELUSIONAL! They are a war zone with unrelenting rockets, wars, threats, etc etc etc. Quote Ezekiel 38:11 (KJV) And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, Without walls, bars and gates; is not talking about national borders, but their cities. Back in the day all their cities we protected by these means, not so today. The AntiChrist will naturally seek the weakest spot to attack Israel. That in no way means that God has brought them back and is protecting them!

Canada became a nation in 1867 one day, does that mean they are a fulfillment also? The time of birth pains is yet to come so that verse says AFTER that also!! Some control, they can't even so much as pray in the holy place! The mountains does not say anything about which mountains. Once God brings them back after the tribulation they will control all the mountains! People gather all the time. The issue is when GOD brings them back. That is not until after they get saved. Period. That is a signature of the end times. It will get a lot lot lot lot lot worse before the end. That is not a sign that God restored them! When He does, no one will utter a word against His people. Now most of the world utters plenty! I know. I listened to him and Hibbs. I like a lot of what they say, but they are hung up on that false 'already gathered back by God' nonsense. If they feel safe they are DELUSIONAL! They are a war zone with unrelenting rockets, wars, threats, etc etc etc. The AntiChrist will naturally seek the weakest spot to attack Israel. That in no way means that God has brought them back and is protecting them!

To Barbarian Obviously the part of the beginning He was referring to was day 6 when they were here. Refresh my memory, do you believe in a real Eve that was actually taken from the created man's body by God after putting Adam to sleep? Yes or no?

Right, and some humans get mad when we do not believe them over God. I would call that pride.

I agree. It is a bit like the old saying 'Pee or get off the pot'.

Jesus believed in the beginning and the first created man and woman. So did everyone else in Scripture and nowhere does anyone contest that in the bible! The angels in Revelation in the end time makes the One who created the heavens and earth a primary focus in what he preaches. Jesus never scolded Moses when they met on the mountain when He was transfigure about how Genesis was all wrong! Peter was there and talked about creation after that, as was John etc. There is total agreement on this issue in the bible and with Jesus. We should care about some who profess belief that despise and fight this truth...why exactly? Some people may thing they are a different sex than they are or that they are an alien and be in a church. That does not make the disagreement with truth and reality of Scripture of no effect! It just makes many not all that close to the depths and riches of Scripture and the nature of God.

And many millions moved to Florida, and elsewhere also. God knew they would. That is not the time after the vengeance when He brings them back and destroys their enemies after the repent. That should be obvious. It is astounding to me that God knew they would get a country by the end time. How else could they be invaded and etc etc? Don't confuse that with the time when, after the Tribulation, and after they repent, God moves to restore them big time and in reality. Right now all we have is basically a secular nation there with a population that is probably no more Christian than their neighbors! For those who claim God already brought them back, and that the desert is now blooming like a rose, and that they are now in peace, and that we believers should support Israel etc. etc. I would ask if you really think one side is so righteous and good over the other side over there? I cannot blame God for how Israel has treated their neighbors, sorry. Says who? God did not bring them back yet, why blame Him? He knew it would happen, yes. He will save them when the time comes, yes. He will rule the world from Jerusalem, and return to earth on that mount of Olives there, yes. He will bring them back to that land one day and wipe out all enemies, yes. That day is not before they repent and so by what authority do you claim God restored Israel in 1948? Says...who?? The bible says when and how GOD will restore them and that is in the future and after they get saved. Until then, they have violently set up a secular nation there and all the resulting wars are prophesied. That does NOT mean God restored them.

When God brings them back is what I am talking about. That is after the vengeance. When they hear the 144000 not all of Israel will listen apparently. When the SEE Him whom they have pierced, then shall they mourn as for an only son and finally repent. Then God wipes out their enemies. Then He brings them back where they will be safe and the desert will really really blossom.

Some people say God can do anything and is not limited by what He said He did! I would say Jesus and the rest of the bible including angels are correct in confirming creation as per Genesis. One should not try to make God a liar just to get all things including Scripture and God to conform to their scientific beliefs. To paraphrase 1 kings 18:21 ' And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Science, then follow it'

Right, such as the return of Jews sent by God to Israel. Why do some people claim that already happened in 1948?

No. They aren't. Thought you would have known that. Go ahead and show the steps involved in assigning ages to those things. Or run away and pretend you know. Whatever.

Yes it is prophesy and also still in the future. It is part of the description of that last several years. That is not the time when God will bring a saved Israel back to the land! That would be, as stated several times here already, AFTER the vengeance. All we need to do is remember the proper times involved in the prophesy. In this case the particular prophesies about when God brings Israel back. I have heard people (most recently Jack Hibbs & co and jean Merkel etc) talking about how God brought His people back there is 1948 and now they are in safety, peace, desert blooming like a rose etc etc etc. Furthermore they make this issue a big deal and a priority. When I wrote them asking about it, I got no reply. So I raised the issue here to see if someone could mount a real biblical case or not. So far..no.

Let me guess all the water on earth turned to blood then also, and all trees were burned up, and the antichrist ruled, and all the stars went out as well as the sun? Ha The air force in Israel does not give them peace! Total canard. Having a small percentage of Jews convert to Jesus is not 'all Israel shall be saved'!

No. The fact that God will keep them safe and destroy their enemies is prophesy. Jer 23:3Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock from all the lands to which I have banished them, and I will return them to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and multiply. 4I will raise up shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or dismayed, nor will any go missing, declares the LORD. Ezekiel 28:25-26 “Thus says the Lord God: When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and manifest my holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they shall dwell in their own land that I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell securely in it, and they shall build houses and plant vineyards. They shall dwell securely, when I execute judgments upon all their neighbors who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.” Ezekiel 34:13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land. And I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the ravines, and in all the inhabited places of the country. Ezekiel 37:21-25 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Land-Permanently-Restored-To-Israel --etc This is all after Jesus returns and rules the world. That is when He brings them back. Many people seem to like to claim that God brought them back in 1948. The peace and safety in the great trib is a false peace. That is not what God is talking about in prophesy when He brings them back. That is not after the great white throne judgment either! And yes many say that! So don't claim nobody says that.

The peace and safety that God will bring after He brings them back to the land has nothing to do with the seven year period, it is after. Just like the enemies of Israel will not be destroyed until after that vengeance. That never happened yet and certainly not in the 1940ies!

No. He allowed them to be a nation, but if He gathers them after the vengeance then the time is not yet. Israel needed to be a nation for the prophesies to be true. How else can someone invade Israel and etc? But apparently the time when God brings them back is after His day of vengeance. It will be THEN that their enemies will be crushed. It will be THEN that they dwell safely, etc. etc. I do not think it is right to try and claim all those things (Israel is brought to the land by God and dwells safely etc) in prophesy already mostly happened. You know, asking people to support the secular nation, and believe God already brought them back there. God only does all that AFTER they repent and get saved.

Explain how light was there before the sun if you claim the sun must be what the light was! No wonder you run off!

No. The issue is when God will bring them back. That is future.

We could not say all who defy Israel today are humiliated! Nor have they all perished by any stretch of the imagination. That is future. As the verse you yourself posted says.."‘Israel My servant, the descendants of Jacob, whom I have chosen. I have summoned My servants from the ends of the earth; out of every nation.’ The Lord’s righteous people, now every faithful Christian, called out of the nations after the Lord’s Day of vengeance."

Right, after that God will bring Israel to the land. That is future.

All the posts so far have talked about the future, after the vengeance. Not 1948

In all the major parts of the bible I read about when God brings Israel back, it seems to still be the future. For example I don't think we could say they are at peace and safe now.

No. Because a day was later marked in a way that we recognize how much time is involved, and that was by the sun. There were mornings and evenings also after the sun and stars were made. Since we still have the sun today, we have a good idea that a day is not a million years here on earth. Plants were made before the sun and they cannot last millions of years before they get sun! There is no indication whatsoever that a day and morning and evening were not approx what we see today. Since a year was 360 days, we can allow for possibly a small difference in the length of a day. The point I was making to Barbarian was that he cannot limit what a day is defined as to the sun.

I found this in an encyclopedia " mor´ning : There are several Hebrew and Greek words which are rendered "morning," the most common in Hebrew being בּקר , bōḳer , which occurs 180 times. It properly means "the breaking forth of the light," "the dawn," as in Genesis 19:27; Judges 19:8 , Judges 19:25 , Judges 19:27 . Another word with the same meaning is שׁחר , shaḥar (Genesis 19:15; Nehemiah 4:21; Isaiah 58:8 ). משחר , mishḥar ("womb of the morning," Psalm 110:3 ) is a poetical term derived from. the same root. See HIND OF THE MORNING . נגהּ , nōghah , נגהא , naghhā' (Daniel 6:19 (Hebrew 20)), mean "brightness." השכּם , hashkēm , comes from השׁכּים , hishkı̄m , "to load an animal" (for a journey), and as the nomads are accustomed to do this early in the morning it came to mean early morning (1 Samuel 17:16 ). See BETIMES . In the New Testament ὄρθρος , órthros , is properly "dawn," and is used for early morning ( John 8:2; Acts 5:21 ), and πρωΐ́α , prōı́a signifies the same Matthew 27:1 . πρωΐ́ , prōí , "early," is an adverb and means early in the morning Mark 1:35 . Morning as an adjective is ὀρθρινός , orthrinós Revelation 22:16 , or πρωΐνός , prōinós (1 Esd 1:11; 5:50; Revelation 2:28; Revelation 22:16 )." https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/eng/isb/m/morning.html The light that broke forth in day one of creation, or day two had zero to do with the sun.