Charlie744

Thank you folks for the responses! It is great to see the knowledgeable and thought provoking comments regarding the 2300 days. This indeed is a very difficult time period to interpret and unpack - and this is only one of the nine identified (at this time) during my time studying Daniel. I am having quite a difficult time with chapter 11 - but the 2300 days issue allowed me to take a brief break..... I certainly look forward to reading more about the 2300 days issue .... it is such and interesting puzzle! Best wishes always, Charlie

RevelationMan, it is ALWAYS great to see that you take the time and consideration to respond to my comments!!!!! I do agree with you regarding your comments on those who have provided their interpretations - they are / were a strong starting point for me! Regarding the study of Revelation - I certainly will want to learn your thoughts and interpretations...... It would be such a mistake not to consider your thoughts along with many others here including DHChristian, etc. I also feel it might be necessary to apologize to all who may have felt that I was the only one who has heard or could hear from the Holy Spirit - NO, it is just the opposite - I meant that HE is the only one who can reveal to us God's meaning. Now, regarding your interpretations above for the 9 controversial issues found within Daniel, I am, unfortunately, finding myself on the complete opposite side of the spectrum........ Rather than attempt to address and discuss each of the issues, which would most likely take a lifetime, I would like to learn about your thoughts on the 2300 days. I would respectfully request that you might want to answer the same question I proposed to DH: 1) Why this does not point to the Messiah? Why doesn't this time frame point to the things He must fulfill during His first coming? 2) Does the 2300 days / years / 1/2 days, etc., period interpretation define the application of this verse? I am sure you will agree this is one of the most enigmatic time periods mentioned within Daniel - if we interpret this time frame incorrectly - days, 1/2 days or years as the Adventists do, OR we attempt to match it to one of man's actors or events in history (e.g., Antiochus), we will never see the Messiah in these verses (and specifically this verse). 3) What would it take for you to find this speaks / points directly to the Messiah? I look forward to your response.... very much, thank you, Charlie

DH, once again I would like to thank you for the interesting and time consuming response! I have been active on this sight for a brief period of time and have posted two issues - Daniel 11 and now the 2300 days, and it is quite enjoyable to have many respond with such knowledge and dedication to God's Word. As you are well aware, there is no shortage of interpretations with many of the chapters / verses within Daniel and that certainly allows for us to continue to search for God's meaning and understanding - He is not going to give us all the answers to the test... Unfortunately, I have only recently began my journey to learn and obey the Word of God. I see, not only from the quality and depth of the content of the replies but also from their own words, that just about all in this site have been studying His Word and have been on His path for some time. I wish I would have taken this road so much earlier. In July, 2019 I wanted to try and learn Revelation - I read through it once and came away in utter bewilderment. Subsequently, I had a brief conversation with an Adventist friend and he advised me to tackle Daniel first - and leverage that understanding to learn Revelations. I took his advice and here I am. After reading Daniel through at least 3 times, I cam away with almost the same level of confusion as Revelation. I did have some traction with the historical chapters but the prophetic chapters were "Greek" to me. I decided to take one verse at a time and read some of the interpretations and comments from folks all over the internet - from Augustine to Walvoord, Clarke, Gill, Henry, Barnes, and on and on. I came away with the following: There are perhaps 2 or 3 leading interpretations on the controversial issues found in Daniel (not in any order): 1) 2300 days, 2) times, times and 1/2 times, 3) 10 horns 4) 1 little horn 5) 3 horns plucked up 6) abomination of desolation 7) identity of the "he" in 9:27 8) 1290 days 9) 1335 days I may have left one or two out - if so, please let me know, but these 9 essentially are the cause for all the controversy in Daniel. But why do we still have at least 2 or 3 [usually] completely different interpretations of the same verse? The above mentioned folks are quite intellectual, scholarly, well educated and dedicated to learning the Word of God. How could I possibly decide who was right - so many others during the 20th century, and especially since the advent of the internet, have spent so much time and energy to consider...... I came away with three answers: 1) There is absolutely NO way I had the intellectual capacity, historical knowledge or theological understanding to offer more than those folks, 2) Despite the comment just made, and although I could not offer an alternative, I knew in my heart they did not have the correct interpretations for these controversial issues. They should be more of a consensus among them... theoretically, given all the recorded history and the collective studying of the best scholars over the past 2000 years, there should be relatively minor disagreements (I would think). We are getting too close to His second coming and He certainly desires that we come to know His Word - this is not a game of hide and seek for Him. 3) Having said that,the third take away must be that we have been attempting to interpret His prophetic Words in Daniel at a 6 foot level - a horizontal level, if you will. We are quite able to match the individuals and events in Daniel with an Alexander or Nebuchadnezzar or the break up of Alexander's empire into four territories because they can be found in our history books. However, our error, although more than reasonable and acceptable (so far), is to continue with that same approach - let's try and match those events after Greece to our history books - and this is where we begin to depart from each other's interpretations. This is due to our failure to recognize when or where God's prophecies are no longer meant to "match or fit" to our / man's historical figures or events. We fail to recognize these prophecies are meant to reveal His history - His coming of the Messiah, His Plan of Salvation. He has already got our attention by showing us in the historical section how He can reveal coming history. Now, He wants us to see His coming history. Consequently, if we might try and see Him in the prophetic chapters / verses of Daniel, we will find a completely new interpretation. I believe the one He wants us to see, and to be candid, I believe this is entirely purposeful - He has kept much of Daniel "shut up" until the time of the end. I think the end is right around the corner and it is time for Him to reveal even more of Himself. Since July, 2019 I have been able to study and complete (first phase only) the first 10 chapters of Daniel. Each one was a struggle with the prophetic chapters being so much more difficult. ONLY through the Holy Spirit could I even make sense of these verses - all of them. The answer is this: The Holy Spirit is the only one capable of revealing His Word, AND, He will reveal His Word if we try to find and recognize the Messiah in these prophetic verses - and not insignificant people like Antiochus or an anti-Christ (9:27) or some mythical covenant this anti-Christ will make some 2000 years in the future. Consequently, the 2300 mornings and evenings, as well as all the other controversial issues mentioned above, point and speak entirely to the coming Messiah, the Spiritual battle between the little horn and His Word and finally, His second coming. This is the sum of the prophetic verses we find in chapters 8 to 12 (certainly there is still some reference to man's kingdoms and kings, however, the transition from the physical to the spiritual moves quickly along after the middle of chapter 8). Therefore, the 2300 days ties to the Messiah, the cleansing of the Sanctuary, His Passover sacrifice and the verses within Daniel and other prophets which identify those things He must fulfill at His first coming. I certainly enjoyed your response but, unless I missed it, can you please let me know when the 2300 days begins and ends. I am well aware of the Adventist's view where they incorrectly apply a day-for-a - year principle AND assume the 2300 (year) period begins at the same time as Daniel's 70 week prophecy. And once again we see how we attempt to identify a man made event or time to interpret one of His most important prophetic verses in Daniel. The 2300 days is not meant to point to 1844 or an insignificant actor like Antiochus - this is ALL ABOUT HIM! So, I deeply apologize for this very long winded response but I am sincere and trying to be as respectful as I know how given my admiration and appreciation for the very talented group of true Christians on this website, such as yourself and RevelationMan and Marilyn and others. Two requests: 1) Can you let me know how your 2300 days begins and ends. 2) What will make you believe this verse is about Him and not Antiochus or anyone else? Best wishes always, Charlie

DH, thank you for sending me the very informative and detailed link... unless I am mistaken, this is most likely one of the most widely accepted views for the 2300 days - which essentially focuses on Antiochus and his nasty dealings with the Jews. I would like to respond by asking you why the 2300 mornings and evenings (which definitely mean what they say and not years (day for year principle found in the Adventist interpretation), does NOT refer or apply directly to the Messiah? Thank you very much and I look forward to hearing your reply and others, it interested, Charlie Sorry for leaving this out (below), please note: Verse 13: Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? Verse 14: And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days (evenings and mornings); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. As a result of the crucifixion, the daily sacrifice will be taken away (no longer needed), it will certainly cause desolation, the sanctuary and the host would be trodden (the Messiah is crucified and He is the only one who is able to cleanse the sanctuary by becoming the Passover Lamb and forgive ALL sins). Consequently, the 2300 days must be applied to the Messiah. This prophecy is not about some very minor evil actor between the 3rd and 4th kingdom. Antiochus is / was not even a king anywhere near the stature of say, Nebuchadnezzar or Alexander. He is simply not important or relevant in God's prophecies - God is not going to spend His prophetic capital on such a minor character - he was just an evil little man who came to power and hated the Jews. The 2300 morning and evening phrase was specifically used to point to the daily sacrifices - it points to the final sacrificial lamb - the Messiah. As each we progress through each chapter of Daniel, the prophecies begin to leave the horizontal level (man's kingdoms and kings) to the vertical (God's coming kingdom and Jesus). Progressively, the verses reveal the coming Messiah (chapters 8 and 9). This is one of the most important things I have found in most of the interpretations of Daniel - they concentrate on the horizontal view and not the vertical - if you search for the Messiah in the verses (prophetic especially), you will see how they speak of the Messiah and not an Antiochus or the like.... Look forward to hearing from anyone / everyone and thanks, Charlie

I am sure this particular topic has been discussed in the past, but because I am a newbie I would kindly ask if I could get your current thoughts.... I am currently working on chapter 11 so I have run through the first 10.... Would you please comment on the following: 1) Would you please tell me what the 2300 mornings and evenings directly refers or relates to? What will be completed or accomplished at the end of this time period? 2) This may be addressed in your response to #1 above, but if not, what is the basis for your time period - days, years, 1/2 days, etc.? Please try and keep this as short as possible (dumb it down for me as I am not as "equipped" as those folks that have been responding to my Daniel 11 posts). If not, no problem and thank all of you in advance, Charlie

RM, thank you very much for the response and I am sincerely sorry to learn of your medical issues.. I hope you feel better, in the short run, and I will certainly pray for you in the long term... I am sure it is not easy to deal with them each day. I don't believe I may be able to get some folks to participate in brain storming for a new interpretation that what is currently out there and accepted, but I will keep this post open until I have exhausted my thoughts.... But what is interesting is your response to the 2300 days issue and your opinion.. As mentioned, I am currently attempting to study 11 - and I have completed a first run at the first 10 chapters, so I would like to open a brand new post for the 2300 days and see what everyone believes... You certainly have a definite answer and I am sure many others may also so I want to learn ... Please respond with your typical enjoyable and knowledgeable comments. Best wishes... see you in 2300 days, Charlie

Thank you very much for responding and I am sorry to put you through this... best wishes always, Charlie

OK.... I can candidly confirm that I am completely lost!!!! I went back and read through some great comments from many folks to the original post by Revelations Man -Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step. So much information and knowledge here in this forum! Included in that discussion / thread I believe I saw a reference to the 2300 days (evenings and mornings).... not sure if I caught this correctly but I am not sure if / how this would relate to chapter 11... (if I misunderstood, please accept my apology). Unfortunately, I am still unable to understand 11. I have attempted to section 11 into at least two parts: Section 1 would begin with verse 5 and would begin sometime during the pagan Roman period (I know everyone / most / many contend this begins with the post Alexander powers). The second section would consist of the papal Roman period or power where the "little horn" comes to power. Then chapter 12 picks gets us to the end of time and the second coming. The basis for all of this is as follows: the last two chapters should address three things: 1) what will happen to Daniel's people (Jews), 2) the rise of the "little horn" and ALL his attempts / actions / events, etc. to corrupt the Word of God and His Plan of Salvation, and 3) the end times (chapter 12). Consequently, I am then attempting to take the first section of papal Rome and identify some actors and events that might be more easily identified and then try to fill in the blanks if you will. But as mentioned, I have having some serious difficulty. I am sure everyone will comment and reply that is because I am ignoring the starting point - post Alexander Greece and Antiochus, etc. (there are only four kingdoms and the last three are Medes - Persia, Greece and Rome. In both chapter 8 and here in 11 (first four verses), they are specifically identified, and in my opinion, are complete - they are behind us in the prophecies. And everything after verse 4 should provide details of the fourth kingdom only - those events and actors that are directly affecting the three areas of concern mentioned above - Daniel's people, little horn, and the end of times. Also, I might mention another point which I certainly can not prove and would not attempt: I believe there were approximately 400 years or so where there really was no further prophecies or prophets sent to the Jews prior to the coming of the Messiah. Essentially, it was dark for that time. To me this also identifies (bad choice of words) with the "transition" period from the 3rd and the 4th kingdoms - it is also a dead period and we might / should try and identify the meaning of verse 5 and beyond as beginning with the 4th kingdom. Again, this is why I am attempting to unpack and learn 11 by searching for the proper actors and events belonging to verses 5 to 21 initially (the reason I stopped at 21 is because I think this might refer to the little horn and then I can work back to verse 5...). Sorry for the long winded comments but if I am going to ask for anyone's assistance, and I see from the responses so far it is going to be difficult to get anyone to put aside the post Alexander beliefs, I should provide you my reasoning for my approach. Finally, I would welcome any comments or thoughts since there is obviously so much talent here, and thank all of you in advance! In an unrelated question (at least to me), does anyone what to offer their opinion on the 23000 mornings and evenings? I don't believe there is any agreement on this subject..... Thank you so much and I hope to hear from anyone soon, best wishes, Charlie

Thanks Marilyn, but you are able and willing to give me the interpretations that are currently "out there". I have mentioned that I am attempting to brain storm - assuming verse 5 begins in the pagan /papal Roman period / kingdom... I have already read the many interpretations "out there" - they don't work for me and this is why I am asking for those who would like to theorize and help me with a different / new interpretation that is more vertical than horizontal ..... Which is why I asked if you might be willing to give me your thoughts on 5 and 6 without any reference to any existing interpretations out there and where verse 5 starts with pagan /papal Rome.... Hope this makes sense! Thanks, Charlie

Dennis, very nice to hear from you again! I appreciate any comments you may have. May I take a similar approach with you that I have recently with Marilyn (assuming she has interest)? Can you tell me your opinion of who is identified in verse 21? Also, please assume this individual is someone coming after 1 AD.... Thanks again, Charlie

Marilyn, once again, I would like to thank you very much for taking the time and effort to respond..... I would kindly ask you to read my responses to the previous emails within this group / topic. Essentially, I do not believe the current interpretations are ........ God has already spent His prophetic capital on the first three kingdoms. By this chapter (11) He is not interested in predicting man's battles or conflicts with each other - been there, done that especially in chapter 2 - man will always kill and destroy their fellow man because chapter 2 is man living without God. As we move forward in Daniel we see His emphasis is shifting from horizontal to vertical, from man's wars and conflicts to the more important spiritual battle (Satan and God). He specifically identifies four kingdoms - and the last two are Greece to Rome (both pagan and papal). He is not going to spend His important verses on some unimportant transitional group (s). The final kingdom will include His coming Messiah, the important issue of what will happen to Daniel's people (His people the Jews), the completion of the 70 weeks prophecy of chapter 9, and of course, the most important conflict being the coming of the little horn (papacy), and all his corruption and murderous acts against His people (all true Christians) until the end of times. In chapter 7, we have a list of four kingdoms, while in chapter 8 we have only three - the last being Alexander. There is a purposeful shift / emphasis from kingdom to king - because the final king of the fourth kingdom can only be Jesus Himself. At this will only take place at His second coming. Everyone between Alexander and His second coming will not be a king but a power against Him - principally the "little horn". Consequently, chapter 11 verse 4 takes out right out of the third kingdom and king - Greece and Alexander, respectively. Not too sure about this but there seems to be a 400 year or so period before the Messiah where there really is no mention or activity of the Jews - no more prophets, etc. There is silence from a Jewish writings / prophets, warnings, messages, etc. The Tanakh has been finished and complete. The next event is the coming of the Messiah and this also will correspond with Daniel. From verse 4 to 5 is the same symbolic period of no mention or activity - it has no importance to God's Plan of Salvation - just a mindless, warring period between the final two kingdoms. So, verse 5 should begin within the pagan / papal fourth kingdom. My problem is to identify what and who are the characters and events in this verse... There are more than a few options / possible characters / events depending on exactly when verse 5 starts: time of crucifixion with Herod as KOS or his son Agrippa 1, is the daughter of the KOS berenice (daughter of Agrippa 1) or is that Judah / Israel. Does verse 5 start at the time of Constantine and where the agreement is when he will agree with the northern barbarians to accept Christianity (in name only), or so on... This is why I am seeking some smart, learned folks... but I do NOT want to try and change peoples views on Daniel 11 - I want to ask them, if they are willing, to first, accept there is no current interpretations out there and let's take one verse or two at a time and discuss some possible alternatives. I mentioned in my first email that I have completed the first 10 chapters, and believe me, they look nothing like the interpretations out there. This does not mean mine are correct....... Since you obviously have tremendous knowledge regarding Daniel, would you mind taking a little time going down my rabbit hole - just with the first two verses -5 and 6? - but accepting that this must refer to "a " period within the pagan / papal Rome kingdom. Thank you very much and I hope you might be willing and interested - you never know what might come from this.... Charlie

If you folks do not mind, can I ask two questions to try and start this process (for those who are interested in this...): Verse 21 -- In your opinion, who is this vile person who will come by flattery? Again, please assume a clean slate (not someone from post Alexander transition period or Antiochus)... Is this the papacy? Verse 5 & 6 --- (Question 1 first: Could the first few verses be a "summary" and not the beginning of a detailed account events, activities? If not, could these verses be speaking about: KOS = Agrippa 1, One of his princes above him = Roman prince stationed in Syria above him, End of years they shall join together = Rome would merge / join together the two powers into one post the "end of years" (after the vision or crucifixion), Kings daughter of the South = Berenice (daughter of Agrippa 1) who would travel to Rome in support of the Jews (but to no avail). Judah would not retain any power and essentially be swallowed up by Rome, Out of her roots (Judah), one would come - could this be the beginning of the 3 revolts against Rome which would eventually result in the destruction of the second Temple and Masada, etc. This is just one of the theories I would like to explore with someone and take it as far as it can go. If it falls by its own weight, fine, but we will learn much and then take another theory..... Thanks for your consideration, Charlie

First, thank you so much for all your time and effort! You certainly are well versed and knowledgeable .... I guess you must really enjoy Daniel!!!! I have just posted a short response to - I believe Sister.. and hope you might take a look at it... Don't want to sound ignorant, but I trying to take one verse or a couple of verses at a time without any assumptions --- except that post Greece and an Antiochus is not within Daniel 11. I have read so many of the interpretations out there and none work for me.... Daniel 11 and 12, in my mind, must speak about the events / characters that have a significant relationship with the coming Messiah, Daniels people, the little horn and what this little horn and his power will corrupt and challenge God's Word until His second coming. The history lessons are done with... chapter 2, 7 and part of 8... His messages have been clearly moving away from the "horizontal" and quickly to the "vertical" - the spiritual warfare and not the physical conflicts among man and man's four kingdoms.. Chapter 11 and 12, in my mind, must begin in the pagan / papal Rome period since that is when the Messiah comes and also the little horn..... Essentially what I am saying is that ALL the existing interpretations I have see focus entirely on the "horizontal" - man's view of man's conflicts. They attempt to "fit" man's events and characters the best they can to fit the verses in Daniel 11.... and to some extent, they seem to fit quite well. But that can not be what God is meaning for us to see there - I am more than sure He wants us to see Him, His people, the little horn who will come to power and corrupt His Word - nothing else could be more worthy or important of a message than this... Consequently, I am trying to find folks with excellent knowledge and thinking ability as yourself to possibly try and start off with a clean slate and see if there is an alternative to what is out there.... So, if there is an interest on your part and willing to spend a little time and consideration, I would like to suggest to anyone in this string to begin by thinking if there are other possibilities to the characters / events just for verses 5 and 6... I am now going to try and respond to other responses and hope to offer some possibilities for those who might be interested to think about...Again, thank you so much for your time and consideration, Charlie

So kind of you to respond and take the time and consideration to provide this... I have read many of the interpretations which promote the identical or near identical beliefs or interpretations. But as mentioned in my email / message, I do not believe Daniel 11 brings post Alexander and Antiochus into the final vision. I have a few reasons for this but I do not want to create a disturbance with anyone who is committed to the current views. I am asking anyone to assist me in identifying a different interpretation - essentially, assume there were no current interpretations attached to Greece or Antiochus and begin a clean slate....... Because there can be so many rabbit holes, I am trying two approaches: 1) begin with verses 5 and 6 only and see what other options (individuals and events) the characters / actors could represent. For example, could the KOS be either Herod or his son Agrippa 1 and the prince is the Messiah. End of years is after the vision / crucifixion, the Christian Jews will attempt to spread the Good news to the gentiles (north) but it will meet with significant problems and eventually will be taken over by papal Rome (it will not retain its arm), but a branch out of its root (Church), would come Constantine who will gain the army and .... This is just one option / thought to work on... but you can see how many options there are or could be (which is why I am looking for some bright folks to help me).... but not to argue about whether the current interpretations are solid.... 2) go through just verses 5 to 21 verses and see if we can identify a verse that is unequivocally identified to an event or person. Then work backwards within the first 21 verses and see if we can identify all the pieces of this puzzle and where they fit nicely. However, this requires an individual who is willing to walk with me down this path and brain storm (without changing their current views, but willing to explore). For example, if verse 21 is the little horn or papal Rome, we can then start working back to verse 5.... I hope this helps you understand what I am attempting... there are so many very interesting options and interpretations for Daniel 11 and with God's help, we can have them... For what it is worth and I do not want to spend time with those that feel comfortable with Post Alexander and Antiochus views, chapter 11 / 12 is the final message to Daniel and I don't believe God is going to spend anymore of His prophetic capital on a very minor actor like Antiochus or a post Alexander period (transition) to the fourth kingdom! Greece has been addressed and now it is on to Rome (both pagan and papal). This is where He is going to complete the 70 week prophecy and the little horn power which will take us out to His second coming.... Hope you still might want to explore, thanks, Charlie

Thank you very much!

I am attempting to complete a commentary on the book of Daniel - completely new interpretations from anything that is "out there". I have completed chapters 1 -10 but I am having significant difficulty with chapter 11. Most scholars, commentaries, etc., begin after verse 4 (Alexander) with one of the rulers of the four territories split from Alexander's Empire. My initial thought is that God is done with them. I believe the verses 5 to 21 at least should consider the Pagan / Papal period and the coming Messiah and the Jewish people (Daniel's people)........ not some relatively insignificant individual as an Antiochus or the transitional kingdoms (post Alexander) - they really do not have much important to God's Plan of Salvation and I do not believe He would spent that much prophetic capital on such..... But I need some serious thinking partners with this... Hope there is some interest in challenging the long and maybe stale interpretations...... My initial plan is to try and identify some verses within 11 that unequivocally point to a specific or definite time or individual and then try to fill in the in-between activity / verses. I will say that unless we can correctly identify the identities in verses 5 and 6, we will not unlock the message of Daniel 11 ....... So, if you would like to brainstorm on these two verses initially..... great!!!!!! Hope this makes sense and I look forward to your assistance and abilities. Best wishes always, Charlie