Paul James

The fact that you keep repeating much the same thing to me makes it appear that you are attempting to proselytise me to your belief, and if that is so - end of conversation.

If the message in the dream is not absolutely clear to you that you need someone else to interpret it for you, I would seriously doubt that it came from the Lord. If you didn't experience love, joy, peace from the Lord through the dream, I would be certain that it is not from the Holy Spirit at all. If I got a dream like that, I would say to the Lord when I woke up, "That was a scary one, but you have not given me a spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind."

If that is what you want to do for yourself, you are quite welcome. No one is stopping you.

Three weeks after I received Christ in an AOG church, I was given a book about the baptism with the Spirit. One afternoon I was laying on my bed, reading the book. For the previous three weeks I had pleaded with God for the baptism with the Spirit, and hoped that it would come when I was baptised in water, and was disappointed when it didn't happen. Halfway through the book a sentence jumped out at me: "Why are you pleading and begging for something I gave you 2000 years ago? Just accept it!" So, I said, "Lord, I accept it!" Then I thought, well, now that I have the baptism with the Spirit I can speak in tongues, so I tried to put syllables and words together. It was strange and hesitant at first, then after around 10 minutes, the language started to flow out of me. It has never stopped until this day, 53 years later. I remember when I became deeply discouraged through things that went on in the Charismatic church I was with in the late 1970s, I decided to leave it, and stop being a Pentecostal. Two things happened - first, I couldn't stop praying in tongues, and realised that it was Biblical and not church-based, and secondly, I joined an Anglican church and found myself in a group of Anglican Charismatics who were totally different and refreshing because they had a love and joy that was genuine and true. When I moved to Auckland NZ in 1996, I became an elder of the Presbyterian church and remained there for 23 years until I moved to Christchurch. Even though they are a middle of the road evangelical church -neither Charismatic or strictly Calvinist and didn't have the gifts of the Spirit on their "menu", that didn't make any difference to how the Holy Spirit flowed through me, because my fellowship with with the Father and Jesus through the Holy Spirit, and that is not limited to a particular denominational church. I have had many wonderful and valuable experiences in the prophetic and tongues, and I am very thankful to God that He allowed me to have them over the years.

This is the way receiving the Holy Spirit at conversion which Paul expressed in Galatians, when he asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed, by faith or the works of the Law?"

It was the Holy Spirit, who was there from the beginning, flowing out of you. You can pray in tongues at any time you choose, because you have the ability.

Very wise, because many of these are cultish and not Christian, even though they seem to talk the talk. You will find that in their preaching, the true gospel of Christ is missing.

I looked through the posts and chose your one as the best one to quote - not that I am disagreeing with what you are saying, but rather to bring attention to those who interpret dreams and vision as their "special gift". I have to be honest and say that I believe that dream and vision interpretation is New Age mysticism, while saying that dreams and visions can truly come from the Lord, but are clear and direct so they can be known by the person having the dream or vision. I sometimes have dreams about people I know. I see that as a signal to pray for them. I won't know why they need prayer, but there was a reason why I dreamed about that person, so hold that person up before the Lord so that He will do His will in that person's situation, whatever it is. I have some really vivid dreams at times, which appear very logical while I am dreaming, but are seen as totally illogical when I wake up and remember the dream. Often I will say to the Lord, "That was a crazy one!" But I don't try to interpret it. If the logic of the dream remained the same when I woke up and it was a clear message from the Lord, then I was ask, "Lord, what do you want me to do about that one?" This is because the dream could be a word of knowledge which could be a warning either for me, or for someone else, and if for someone else, I would ask for a word of wisdom from the Lord to guide me in exactly how to share it with that person.

Then He is quite capable of knowing the mind of the Spirit, and understanding when the Spirit inspires a person to pray in his tongues language.

That is classic Pentecostalism as shown in AOG doctrine, which is using the Samaritan and the Ephesus experiences in Acts. Many have been genuinely baptised with the Spirit under that doctrine. But Paul, in Galatians seems to have a different view. He says, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed, by faith or the works of the Law? It seems significant that he didn't say "after you believed". It appears that he is going with what happened on the day of Pentecost and also with Cornelius' household - one, when the Holy Spirit first came, and two, when Cornelius and his household received the gospel and believed on Christ. Also, the Ephesus disciples had only the baptism of John, and so they had never heard the gospel of Christ, or of the Holy Spirit, and when Paul explained both, they were immediately converted to Christ and baptised with the Holy Spirit at the same time. So, how do we explain the apparent contradiction? My view is this: Every person who receives Christ receives the baptism with the Spirit at the same time. The ones who believe that it is a second work of grace, come to a place of faith where they allow the Holy Spirit to flow out of them with tongues and prophecy when they "receive" according to their faith. The ones who believe that they receive the Holy Spirit at conversion, move immediately into tongues ad prophecy according to their faith. These may happen later as they learn that they can use their faith to move in these gifts. But either way, their baptism with the Spirit is genuine, and their tongues and prophecies are of the Holy Spirit.

Who do you think God is? If the Holy Spirit inspires a believer to speak to him in a tongues language, don't you think that God would understand the language? And, I to talk to God as Paul says: I talk to Him from my understanding (mind), and I talk to Him from my spirit (tongues). I am not like the guy who said, "I accept good King James English. If it is good enough for Jesus and Paul, it is good enough for me!" In other words, does your God understand only English?

Any dream or vision that needs third party interpretation has to be suspect. All the dreams and visions shown in the New Testament were clear to the person receiving them and did not need interpretation by someone with the "gift" of dream/vision interpretation.

In Acts or the Apostles? Seems to be missing after the Day of Pentecost.

Show me anywhere in Acts and the letters by the Apostles where dream interpretation is taught as a gift of the Spirit. There are quite a number of New Age sites dealing with dream interpretation, and it is significant that Sigmund Freud was one of the pioneers of dream interpretation and the New Agers see him as their "guru". In the light of nothing said or taught in Acts or the Apostles about dream interpretation, and the fact that it is a central factor in New Age mysticism, I would have serious doubts about it.

If you have spent your whole christian life sitting under Cessationist teaching, and it has become so ingrained in you, I can understand that you know hardly anything about what I am talking about. If you have never interceded for anyone through the Spirit in an intercessory language that flows out of you, and then getting the absolute assurance that God has heard the prayer, and then found out later that a miracle has occurred as the result of the intercession then that is an area quite foreign to you, and you will never get to that depth of intercession.

Great. I just enjoy being with the Lord and having fellowship with Him. I don't treat Him like a vending machine where one pushes a button and out comes the spiritual horoscope.

Praying in tongues is not for getting guidance from God. I talk things over with the Lord all the time, because I share my life with Him, so that there is nothing He doesn't know about me, my desires, aspirations, and my opinions about things. But there are times when I don't know how to put my heart's desire into English, so I pray in tongues, because I know that as the Holy Spirit is inspiring the words, God understands them. The Scripture says, "Who knows the mind of the Spirit, unless the Spirit Himself?" Because the Holy Spirit is a Person and not just some type of liquid or indeterminate mist, He can inspire prayer through me, bypassing my finite mind. This is especially valuable with intercession where I know to pray for someone but not know the reason, and so the Holy Spirit inspires my tongues language accordingly. It is interesting when I am interceding for someone in tongues, the language changes, without me consciously changing it, and I am praying in a totally different language during the intercession, and when the intercession is over, my language changes back to my normal fellowship language. At times, when the language changes, while I am praying it, my mind is saying, "That's an interesting language!" In the time when I have spoken out in tongues for interpretation in church, it is, again, a different language. Of course, Paul lists "various types of tongues" in 1 Corinthians 12. At one time I was asked to pray for a guy's mother who was in a London hospital, and was having uncontrolled stomach bleeding and was in a life-threatening situation. I started interceding for her, and the language changed to the fastest oriental type language I have ever prayed. After the intercession was over, I was totally drained. I found out the next day that at the time of the intercession, the bleeding stopped and she was out of danger. The wonder of this was that I was praying in NZ at around 11am, and it was 11pm the previous evening in the London. I could never had accomplished at urgent and effective intercession just by praying with my mind in English. It took the power of the Holy Spirit though my tongues intercession that saved her life. For someone who has never prayed in tongues, has never experienced that level of intercession, and never will, unless they accept that the ability to pray in tongues is God's will for Christian believers.

Praying in tongues is an act of faith. Therefore it is something you do. If something happens to your mouth and tongue involutarily, then one has to question whether that is really of faith. Faith is a choice of action. You choose to do it. These are the steps of faith: 1. Believe that it is God's will for you. "Be not unwise, but understanding what the will of God is" 2. Ask directly for the gift. "Everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God." 3. Receive the gift. "He who asks, receives". You say to the Lord, "I now receive the ability to pray in tongues." 4. Step out in faith and start speaking an unlearned language. You do the speaking. The difference between speaking nonsense and praying in tongues to the Lord is your faith, who you are praying to. It may have been that the Holy Spirit was helping you over a mental block about doing something different and strange. But now, you can decide when and where you want to pray in tongues. You don't have to hype yourself up into some emotional high, because tongues is not an "ecstatic" gift as some incorrectly describe it. It is speaking an unlearned language to God, just like you are speaking English to a friend. The best times I have had is walking along an isolated beach, with my hands in my pockets, just chatting to God in tongues. Then I get thoughts about what to pray, and so I change to English. When I have done that, I go back to tongues until the next set of ideas of what to pray in English. So, I feel neither high or low but just normal, because prayer in tongues does not need to be hyped up, ecstatic, or emotional, to be prayer in faith.

So, you do support a person in his private prayer room, praying in tongues to God. How about my close friend in a prayer meeting being told by a Ghanaian brother that he was praying in the brother's own rural village dialect, and speaking about the wonderful works of God? And when I was praying in tongues during a church service one Sunday night, Mrs Samuels, a NZ Maori friend told me that I was praising God in the Maori language? How would you explain those if God did not approve of people praying in tongues during church services without interpretation? Of course, Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14, that those who spoke in tongues during the church service were giving thanks well. He wouldn't have said that if he thought that God didn't generally approve of people praying and worshiping God in tongues during church services. He was saying that for others to be edified, it is better to prophesy, and pray quietly to themselves with tongues rather than speak it right out loud. When I was a member of Pentecostal churches in the first 12 years of my Christian life, I knew that there was a major difference between a person praying in tongues, and speaking right out to everyone in tongues. And when a person spoke right out in tongues, there was always an interpretation. Most Pentecostals I know and have associated with for the next 40 years know the difference, and I have never observed a whole group all speaking out together in tongues, causing the chaos that some have described. But then, most NZ Pentecostals don't subscribe to the Faith movement of the US where most of the Youtube videos of people manifesting wacky, out-of-control stuff in those services. I have never seen that in any NZ Pentecostal or Charismatic church or conference that I have attended - and that is over 53 years!

You are a New Zealander Like me. You may have heard of the Christian Centre in Palmerston North that existed from 1970 through to 1985, when it divided into the New Life Church, and the Palmerston North Christian Fellowship. During a Sunday night service, at the altar call, a person whom I know personally was praying in support of people being ministered to. He was sitting a couple of rows back praying in tongues. The NZ Maori lady, a Mrs Samuels, told the person that he was speaking in Maori and God was giving her encouragement. She understood every word that was spoken, and the words were of praise and glory to God for His wonderful works. At a church prayer meeting, my close friend Terry was praying in tongues. A Ghanaian visitor by the name of Badhu stopped the prayer meeting and told my friend Terry that he was praising God in his own village dialect. I know that my friend was uneducated and knew only English. Please explain how these events could have happened if both those persons was just speaking jibberjabber.

What do you think Paul mean when he said, "I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all, yet in the church I wold rather speak two words in plain language so that all will be edified"? So if he didn't speak in tongues in church, then where did he speak it?

Yes, you can babble any nonsense you wish. The creators of Star Trek made up a whole Klingon language with words and meanings. So no surprises there! But when a genuine believer who believes that the ability to pray in tongues is God's will for him or her, asks God directly for it and receives it by faith, knowing that God will not give him something different ('if a child asks for bread will the father give him a stone?"), and then starts speaking a language he has never learned to God in faith while in his private prayer room, he is right out of range of anyone who can say he is not praying genuinely in tongues, in a language that God understands and appreciates. Of course, you can always tell God Himself that those who pray in tongues in their prayer rooms are just speaking babble, and see what He says about it.

You could ask those who have been praying in tongues to the Lord for years and see what they have to say about it. If you have never prayed in tongues because of being taught for years that it is not of God and that anyone who speaks or prays in tongues is in the flesh or even the devil, then I would wonder if you would have the knowledge or experience to make that comment.

So, pouring cold water on those who prefer to worship the Lord with tongues is loving Jesus with all one's heart and loving their neighbour as themselves? Just askin'...

That has nothing to do with the question I put on the thread. When a person is praying in private to God, who is he showing off to? I have been associated with Pentecostals and Charismatics for the last 53 years and I have never encountered anyone speaking in tongues just to show off. But I have seen many worshiping the Lord with tongues, with their eyes closed and hearts lifted up to the Lord. If you are calling that showing off when you were in the service, I wonder where your heart and eyes were at the time?