Anne2

Hi Marilyn, I do agree with one aspect of what you say. I have come to think of this aspect of Christian unity in this way. Israel as a nation was made up of twelve tribes. Each tribe was given a blessing by covenant. Each having a portion of a whole (fulness) blessing which was to Abraham their father. When these twelve were in unity, each tribe shared in the operation of the blessing of the others. ie the fulness of the blessing. Divided they do not enjoy the fulness of the blessing. I think it can be the Same with the Church. Ge 30:27 And Laban said unto him, I pray thee, if I have found favour in thine eyes, tarry: for I have learned by experience that the LORD hath blessed me for thy sake. Ge 30:30 For it was little which thou hadst before I came, and it is now increased unto a multitude; and the LORD hath blessed thee since my coming: and now when shall I provide for mine own house also? Is the Blessing of Abraham full without the nations promised to him? No. Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11: is not just speaking of Jew's. "They" begins with Able and is inclusive of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Should we be surprised at this? Not at all Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Blessings to you as Well Marilyn

Ah, I think this post gives me a better idea of where you are coming from than your prior post to me. We do disagree if you are An israel onlyist.

My goodness FOF, what a full post. That took some time and effort. NICE! And thank you

Anne likes it :-)

Sorry John D But only one times "exactly itself" equals one. Essence one (the finger. Persons three (held up three times). 1+1+1 is three different/ or distinct ones. What is one, and what is three? The purpose and intent of the doctrine is what is overlooked here. It is like finding an obsolete piece of Machinery to perform a task, the equipment was not intended for. Then critiquing how poor or even downright useless the thing is. We can't put our own meaning into their terms, they just do not work. It is a divine mystery, and as such will remain so. But it's use was for a specific task, which functioned in it's purpose. Hope that makes sense.

Thank you as well. It's always nice to know I have been clear. Does not always happen LOL. Ok. Honestly I am not processing the relevance here. Sorry, I can be thick at times as well :-). Ok, so he was speaking to specific assembly of the Church. He did the same here Rom. 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. Again, I am not grasping the issue here. I do not know what you mean by personally. Do you mean not to take disagreement personally? I would agree with that. Paul did often speak to specific people. This in Romans may have some relevance to the discussion (not sure). Specific ministry..... Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. Specific foundation...... 18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. To those which Christ had not been named.....building on his own Apostolic foundation, an apostle to the nations... 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation: There is this. Before Cornelious..... Ac 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I am not surprised. I probably didn't say it well. What I mean is that Paul may not have said what was translated he Said. Rather It could have been that by his apostleship of the Church They were espoused, and through his apostleship they would be presented a chaste virgin. That God THROUGH his minsters does this work through them. The word I is not there in the Greek. Either way Even if it did say "I" it is God which works through them and in them. Hope that is understandable. He is talking about his ministry which God has called him to do concerning the Church. Which ministry is not from himself or his own power but God in him.

The Byzantine Greek does not have the word "I" there. But is translated that way. I don't have much Issue with that since it is his ministry as an Apostle to the Gentiles to preach the Gospel and discipline, install teachers etc. the entire Church. IT is the holy spirit working in each individual which purifies. So that is not really an issue.

Thank you. So, It is not an issue in the same with the Church.

Isn't Israel spoken of in the same manner.

We are the wife of the ketubah (covenant/ Betrothed) Distinct from a concubine.

All I can think to say: We should not forget the doctrine of the trinity is about God's nature. The persons of the Godhead. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy spirit. Gods eternal nature Jesus is God the Son from all eternity made flesh. A distinct theology of Christology. They did not attempt to mix the two. The Fathers did not intend that doctrine as an explanation. For neither they nor us could understand it with our finite minds. The doctrine was to respond to heresies in their day. The terms they used were simply for ways to think and speak about God's nature is all.

Sorry this is so long but I think it is relevant. It says he has given them glory, so that others will believe. What of his works? Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Ps 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Isa 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Ac 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Ac 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Ac 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. The body of believers 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I do understand. I have issues with that myself, and it has gotten me in trouble before. Sometimes I can do a fabulous job but there are times I have a real hard time with that. I am glad you were able to make it clear.

Good question. Thanks for asking...I am curious to hear Marilyns answer to this.

Thank you Marilyn. All I was familiar with was one essence and distinctions vs separate. The other terms I don't really get. The way I undertstand the doctrine the co-eternal part is God the Son has existed from all eternity, As well as God the father, and God the holy Spirit. That God the Son took on Flesh without ceasing to be God. But thanks for your response. It was helpful.

Isn't it one essence? Three distinct (not separate) persons? I do not know if what you say agrees with this or not.

He was sent to the Jew's first, as the wrath was coming upon Jew's by the law. John came preaching an escape from it. The twelve were sent into all nations.

Earthly Israel is distinct from the heavenly Israel. As per Paul Gal 4 And Hebrews etc.

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn. 15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The name, named on the sons of Joseph My name, AND THE NAME of my fathers Abraham and Isaac. One name to all three? The Israel of God? Ge 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: A double portion of inheritance. Earthly kingdom, and heavenly kingdom. 1Ch 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. 1Ch 5:2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph’s:)

I agree, I think the scripture makes that clear, as does the law itself. But these verses speak of not adding to, nor taking away from an established (or confirmed) covenant. These days some ask about about Abraham keeping Mosaic law. Some claim he kept the Sabbath etc. Is that adding to the Covenant sworn to Abraham? Then too, some seem to take away from it by implying the promises are based upon obedience to Mosaic law. As opposed to the notion that the law cannot disannul them. Just for thought I had as I wrote this post. Taking away from that covenant, takes away also from not only Abraham himself, as well as the patriarchs themselves. Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Even the redemption from Egypt was by the Abrahamic covenant. Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

Ge 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing,

Thank you. The covenant made with Abraham..... Chr 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; It is made immutable, by God's oath to him for offering Isaac 16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; Confirmed to Jacob for a statute <02706>....( Not torah), to Israel for an everlasting covenant 17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, 18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; And again Ordinance....in remembrance always. Ex. 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. 23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. 24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance <02706>to thee and to thy sons for ever. It is the covenant of Mercy De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

The promises To Abraham included Gentiles. De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Why is it that so many today think it is replacement theology when the church is a fulfillment of the promises to Abraham our father? But Israel applies the promises made to him as though it were to that to them? In Christ it is no different. It's all to fulfill his promise to the fathers

And all were gentiles.