adamjedgar

I agree with parts of your post, however, there is a bit of a misconception regarding the Old Testament law that i really think every one here needs to take a step back and consider... After the fall of man, no one on this earth except Christ has been able to keep the law. It is a fallacy that the Israelites of the OT were able to keep the law. No one has ever been saved by this method...the apostle states "even Abraham was saved by faith". This is where the entire historical fallacy of salvation by works has been completely misunderstood for thousands of years (not only New Testament times but also in the Old!). It was the Jews who made the law a burden...not God. This was Jesus point about this principle! The reason that the Gospel highlights this issue is because no one prior to Jesus understood it! God saying to the Israelites, you are being sent into exile is almost always because they [the Israelites] entered into Idolatry...they forsook the God of Heaven and his statutes and commands, and they worshipped other Gods. This is very different from the claim they did not keep the law! It means they broke their marriage vow to Him! (a human example of this is adultery...it is a parallel, it means the same thing as, idolatry). By forsaking God through idolatry, they forsook the very essence of his character. If we forsake the character of God, we disown ourselves from Him. This is exactly what Adam and Eve did in the garden of Eden when they disobeyed the command given to Adam in Genesis 2 (do not eat of the tree of good and evil)

I am aware of this, however, i am not sure if it relates directly to the law being a curse? The passage you are referring to is 1 Corinthians 6 and its talking about lawsuits among believers... 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

I am not following your question? It seems circular given the text i just quoted in Genesis chapter 2:15-17. You said...the law is a curse because we are held accountable to it. Jesus said (through his apostles) no mortal sinful man can keep the law. Jesus was able to be a sacrifice for us (justification) only because HE could keep the law perfectly. Adam and Eve were perfect/sinless in the garden even though the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was in the garden and God had already Commanded Adam not to eat of it The point is, God commanding Adam not to eat of the Tree proves that His commandments (the representation/or explanation of Gods character) existed before sin entered this world! From the above, I can actually summarise the law in a much more direct way... "THE LAW REPRESENTS AND EXPLAINS THE CHARACTER OF GOD" So when you say, the law is a curse, logically and remaining consistent with your claim, you are saying that God is a curse because we are told in the bible that we cannot live up to His character! I see a problem with that claim...it is also claiming that God intentionally put the tree of the knowledge of good an evil in the garden because he knew that Adam and Eve would sin! I feel it is then inadvertently claiming, even sinless people cannot refuse temptation and keep the law! That is very dangerous claim....as things get far worse... One would then logically conclude that the Messiah (the only person who perfectly kept the law) could not be a perfect sacrifice to "all creation" in this world because Jesus sacrifice cannot apply to perfect individuals who have fallen. I think that then leads to theological issues because if we read this claim in context with Hebrews 6:4&5, i would automatically then deduce that Adam and Eve cannot be redeemed via Jesus death, only their offspring "born into sin" can be! Hebrews 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen c away, to be brought back to repentance. The bible teaches that God is love 1 John 4 "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." Gods law is love... "the Ten Commandments show the actions that demonstrate our love to our Creator and our fellow man." https://www.ucg.ca/booklets/new-covenant-does-it-abolish-gods-law/ten-commandments-keys-law-love I do not see how one can come to the conclusion from all of the above that the law is a curse! That is claiming that God has intentionally cursed us (or intentionally provided the means by which he determined we would be cursed!)

That's interesting because the first command given to man was before sin immediately after Adam was put in Garden of Eden...(you are saying what God said to Adam below was a curse?) Genesis 2 15Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Absolutely and that is why the law IS NOT a curse...if one does not consider both Testaments of the Bible, then the lessons of the OT are ignored...the Israelites were repeatedly sent into exile because of apostacy (failing to keep God's laws and statutes) The new testent is not about throwing out laws, it's about teaching the gospel...the Israelites failed to do this

It is not the law which is the curse! Adam and Eve and all of creation on this world were cursed when they "transgressed the law"! The curse is death (the wages of sin). This is an unusual question because normally the claim by Sunday worshipping groups is that the law is a burden and Jesus has removed that burden by bearing it for us. Jesus did not bear the burden of keeping the law...he bore the burden of the weight of sin and suffered the consequences of it "IN PLACE OF US (justification). It is a theological error to try to claim God's perfect law is a curse. To make that claim also claims the law's author [God] is also a curse (this is a logical truth....it cannot be refuted because of the premise of your question). Clearly God is not a curse...the responsibility for bearing that is Satan, hence the laying of hands on the goat Azazeel on the day of Atonement before it is cast out into the wilderness!

i know this is going back a ways in the posts here...popular topic and moving so fast... I believe that is absolutely "an interpretation" of the new covenant, however, it is kinda based on something a little higher up the chain. Let me explain my thoughts on this... The 10 commands tell us that we should love the Lord Thy God (first 4 commandments) and thy neighbour as thy self (last 6 commandments). This is also the greatest commandment given to us by Jesus Love God: Commandments 1-4 1. You shall have no other gods before Me. 2. You shall not make for yourself an idol 3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain 4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God Love Thy Neighbour: Commandments 5-10 5. Honor your father and mother 6. You shall not murder. 7. You shall not commit adultery 8. You shall not steal 9. You shall not bear false witness 10. You shall not covet So if we are to link that with the interpretation of your question, then Loving God first allows us to then Love our neighbour. The Gospel is about loving God actually. The fruit of loving God is keeping his command obviously, however there is a second part of that which is loving your neighbour as yourself. that is my take on it anyways.

On a lighter note...we find God in nature...I think we need to add balance to our lives by smelling the roses. I started flying paragliders about 6 years ago. Seeing nature from just a few feet above tree tops has been a life changing experience for me...God's creation even in its tarnished state is an incredible witness for him

Perhaps one of the offspring of the "Nephilim" entered the ark secretly?

All good points. Just a little question about this view...how do you know who Jesus is?

I am not a theistic evolutionist...my personal opinion (and I am not alone on this) is that those guys are not Christian to be honest. The Bible doesn't tell us how the colour of skin came about...to try to make it up is pointless. We know why there are different languages and that it. I do not believe it's the mark of Cain as some fundamentalist groups claim...but honestly I have no scripture to offer to support the idea it's his mark.

You know it has actually taken me almost an hour to type out an answer for this question...I essentially came to the conclusion that such a question is based on vacuous interpretations. However, in an attempt at finding a credible means of engaging in dialogue under the circumstances and, after that ridiculously long passage of time trying to find appropriate words to respond to the above question you posted, i realised a simple truth...this is going to require very long and arduous discussion mostly off-topic to this O.P's original question. I believe that if you want to debate the number of individuals God created alongside Adam and Eve in Genesis 1&2, then perhaps you would consider posting a new question so it can be discussed in its own right and not detract from the O.P's question here.

You are personally attempting to make that correlation based on errant premise...the premise that "the perfect law of God is a curse". Paul states in the book of Romans in Chapter 4 (long before chapter 6 btw) Romans 4:13For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world was not given through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Romans 4:16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. Romans 4:9Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10In what context was it credited? Was it after his circumcision, or before? It was not after, but before. Your point about us being saved in Jesus....this has nothing to do with keeping the law...I state it again (ive done this so many times now it should be like a traffic light for you)...WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THE LAW! Gods first commandment was given in Genesis chapter 2 (please read this in your bible)... THIS COMMAND WAS GIVEN BEFORE SIN EVER ENTERED THIS WORLD. 16And the LORD God commanded him [Adam], “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Now i am going to throw your own logic straight back at you, and from that (without a single bible text quoted below) even you have to admit your conclusion is in gross error... You claim Gods law is a curse You claim the law maker is fallible and created a errant law you claim the law maker (God) is both fallible and cursed. The most fundamental theme of the bible proves both your logic here and therefore your claim is 100% false!!! The problem with developing a theology is that you cannot simply pluck out a random hypothesis, then seek to prove the hypothesis true when said hypothesis has a significant fundamental flaw in it..."that God's perfect law is a curse". I say again, in seeking to prove the errant hypothesis, you are seeking to prove God makes mistakes and that he is in fact fallible. I do not believe God makes mistakes...I do not believe God is fallable, I do believe God is perfect and all knowing I do believe that every command God makes is a reflection of himself and his character... perfect, I believe Gods 10 commandments are perfect so, its only logical based on my above premises, Gods law is not a curse!. It is Satan who has attempted to make that claim...that was the entire point of his treachery in the first place...that Gods law was not just and therefore God was not just! Now i am going to supplement that conclusion with another well known bible truth...I am not saved by the law...my works cannot save me. My works are but filthy rags. I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus dying on the cross for my sins. Jesus paid the price "for the wages of sin is death" for me...for the consequences of breaking Gods eternal law must be paid in full. I can now come bodly before the throne and be deemed righteous because i wear the cloak of Jesus Righteousness. Jesus attained that because He, and only He lived a perfect life according to the law! So the wages for my sin, remembering sin is transgression of Gods eternal law (10 commandments), have been paid in full by my saviour!

i agree that these references show that people existed outside the garden of eden AFTER the fall of man, however, i dont see any correlation with the idea that was the case BEFORE the fall of man? Let me just explain why... God created man in his own image -Genesis 1: 26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itselfd and every creature that crawls upon it.” God rested from all his creation and sanctified the sabbath day and hallowed it...a 'holy convocation to the lord' (Leviticus 23, Numbers 28 & 29) is a term used in Moses time. It was a special day for us to commune with God. I do not see any logical conclusion where one can link: "let us make man in our own image" with the marxist claim in the 'satirical allegorical novel' Animal Farm by George Orwell: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" (ch 10 page 112) I believe that a loving God does not seek inequality in his creation of man It is not within Gods character to propagate racism or exclusion beyond that which an individual may select of their own accord. The point is, it is very obvious from themes and statements throughout the bible, God did not create 2 classes of society...we did that to ourselves, it was not Gods intention. One might say that this is one of the many lesser consequences of the curse of sin (the greatest being eternal death) Now i can already visualise the likely response to my above statement about "2 classes". What about the apparent exclusivity of the great nation of Israel, Gods chosen people? I would suggest that after studying the gospel being taken to the Gentiles, google search 'spiritual Israel'. I believe the Israelites were not chosen to be the only recipients of salvation, they were chosen to spread the gospel...the truth of the coming messiah...and in this they failed miserably, hence the giving of the gospel to the Gentiles to be spread to the world. kind regards, Adam

let me also add the following... you can also check the relevance of this in the beatitudes found in the new testament in Matthew 5:3-12, and luke 6:20-23 (these are cross references for Psalms 1) Psalm 1: 1Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or set foot on the path of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers. 2But his delight is in the Law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night. 3He is like a tree planted by streams of water, yielding its fruit in season, whose leaf does not wither, and who prospers in all he does. 4Not so the wicked! For they are like chaff driven off by the wind. 5Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. 6For the LORD guards the path of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

this is all irrelevant rubbish...that has absolutely nothing to do with the claim that the law is a curse! the curse is the wages of sin...i have already explained this...here is the "self evident " bible verse that tells us this ...Romans Chapter 6: 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? 23For the wages of sin is death [this is the curse], but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord [this is the salvation].

done that so many times but you always ignore it. not once have you ever addressed the factual biblical counter argument that disproves your interpretation. you instead leave those parts out and pretend they have not been presented. The apostle Paul himself said "there is no difference between Jew and Gentile" and yet you make the wild claim that a few of the 10 commandments apply to one party and not the other??? You do this because your foundation conclusions are in conflict with self evident bible truths. Therefore, in order to continue to support these conflicting conclusions, when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you simply ignore the evidence and explain away the error! Its a foolish endeavour and i point out what Samuel said to king Saul..."to obey is better than to sacrifice"!

I have no problem with that. trouble is, i dont think we are on the same page and hence its not possible to interract in a manner where consideration is given to the very obvious problems that exist in your theology. Whenever a problem is highlighted, you explain it away without specific supporting bible texts...instead relying on reasoning of related principals ...using the exact the same flawed theology as the very statements you are trying to support! We cannot use personal interpretations (based on flawed theology) as a support for the flawed theology...its circular and self defeating! If we want to support our theology, then we must use self evident texts from the bible as our foundation...and build upon these self evident texts. If, during this process, we encounter a brick wall where it is plainly obvious an irreconcilable conflict with self evident foundation principles occurs, then our theology is wrong! The theology that the law is a curse, is conflict with biblical truths (self evident texts that state the exact opposite of this claim). We cannot explain away old testament truths by claiming that they no longer apply. Those truths do not make sense to some modern theologies because the modern theologies cannot accept that they must keep the Sabbath! So what the theologian must do is first do is throw out the idea that he doesnt need to keep the sabbath. Ignore that issue completely and just accept that Jesus kept the Sabbath himself and he is our teacher. Teachers teach us what we are supposed to do! If you do this, then the law is no longer a curse! The wages of Sin is the curse...Its that simple!

Matthew 24:38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. As has been pointed out before, the covenant is not about a new law! The covenant is about salvation...i do not understand why you keep ignoring this irrefutable biblical truth? The promise was given after the fall in Genesis Chapter 3, again to Noah, again to Abraham, again to the Israelites at Sinai, and again to the Gentiles (spiritual Israel). It is then explained again in Revelation 14:12 12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

sorry for the language barrier issues...its clear english is not your first language and you are misinterpreting the inferences in my responses. I suspect that this is probably why our theologies are also explained very differently and the origin of the perception that what you say appears to be quite unorthodox.

oh goodness where on earth do you get that from? You do realise what the name Eve means yes? (ie that Eve was called this as she is the mother of all humanity) "In chapter two of the book of Genesis, God decided it would be good for Adam to have a companion and helper. Causing Adam to fall deeply asleep, God took one of his ribs and used it to form Eve. God called the woman ezer, which in Hebrew means "help." Adam named the woman Eve, meaning "life," referring to her role in the procreation of the human raceSo, Eve became Adam's companion, his helper, the one who would complete him and share equally in his responsibility for the creation. She, too, was made in God's image, displaying a portion of the characteristics of God. Together, Adam and Eve alone would fulfill God's purpose in the continuation of creation. With Eve, God brought human relationship, friendship, companionship, and marriage into the world." (https://www.learnreligions.com/eve-mother-of-all-the-living-701199) If you actually read the timeline in the book of genesis, it is very clear that no other persons existed before the birth of Cain and Abel. Seth came after Abel! You then go on to quote genesis chapter 3??? ah hang on, we are in Genesis 1 & 2 here. There is no evidence in Genesis 2 that Adam was actually created inside the garden itself...it a claimed by scholars that he was in fact created OUTSIDE the garden! Genesis 2: 15Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it. In terms of sin, we inherit sin because we are all descendants of Adam...that is the entire point of the statement in scripture "Romans 5:12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned." Can you please provide specific scriptural references that prove your claim other people existed outside the Garden of Eden before the fall of Adam and Eve?

I have an illustration that i think better explains what the cloak of Jesus righteousness actually is and why the new covenant is not about Jesus throwing out the law. Modern christians who worship Sunday (and its almost exclusively this group) are forced to take the new covenant line because its the only way they think they can rationalise the theology that one does NOT have to keep the Sabbath. It is a universal con that is of the devil and Revelation 14:12 proves it "12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (these are all the commandments of God, not just 1 or 2 of them) Now for my illustration... If you read my previous post, you notice i say that the cloak of Jesus righteousness is a magic trick...the gatekeeper thinks that the sinner before him is actually Jesus and therefore the sinner is judged righteous and let in. If you recall the story of Jacob and Esau, how did Jacob steal Esaus birthright? He placed animal skins over himself such that Isaac thought that Jacob was in fact really Esau (even though his voice was clearly the voice of Jacob). Isaac ignored the voice of a person who did not deserve the be given the birthright and in doing so gave the blessing to Jacob! That ignoring of the voice of Jacob is the entire point of all of this... - We are sinners - We (like Jacob) are not worthy or deserving of the birthright that is rightfully to be only given to the firstborn - Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, only to him is the birthright to be given, only he is worthy to receive it because only he has kept the law perfectly. - through our faith and belief (that the trick can work) we take on the animal skins (the cloak of his righteousness) and "boldy come before the throne" (Hebrews 4:16) to receive the birthright blessing - The Father sees Jesus and chooses to ignore the voice of Jacob (the sinner underneath) and places his blessing upon us...we receive our birthright...salvation! The birthright story in Genesis 27 is the most wonderful illustration of exactly how the cloak of Jesus righteousness really works. Jacob knew all of the commandments of God, he didnt receive the birthright because he perfectly kept all of Gods commands...he received the birthright because he had faith that the cloak being placed over him would be good enough to cover his shortcomings (ie that he was not in fact the firstborn), faith that he would be judged and deemed worthy and therefore receive it! Now i the legalists will argue oh that was an awful deception! However, we are looking at this from a sinful perspective so I have to ask, are we not all doing exactly the same as Jacob when we take on the cloak of Jesus? Are we not putting our hands up for something that we are not deserving of? That is the point actually, that is the meaning of Grace i think. WE go bodly in before the throne as pretenders, God sees through the deception just like Isaac did but he chooses to ignore "the voice of Jacob", the unworthy, is satisfied with the righteousness of Jesus covering us, and pronounces his blessing upon us anyway! That story of Jacob and Esau and the birthright is a wonderful analogy given to us 2000 years before the incarnation of Jesus...righteousness by faith was not a brand new concept in the new testament...here it is found in Genesis chapter 27!

The law is not cursed.. the law is perfect The wages of sin (transgression of the law) is a universal truth that applies to all creation. You keep thinking that without sin the is no law. You have it backwards! I repeat a text I have quote that proves the historical wives tails about this completely bogus.. Genesis Chapter 2... God "COMMANDED" Adam ... do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In the day you eat it, you shall die (death is transgression of the law). What no one here has yet pointed out is that none of this is about 10 rules, or 600 bylaws.. it's about a single one...obedience! Samuel said to king Saul, to obey is better than to sacrifice. God wants obedience...that is all he has ever wanted. This nonsense about the law being a curse is in all honesty going to prevent people from being saved! God cannot save anyone who follows in the footsteps of Cain, nadab and abihu, king Saul, or indeed Ananias and Sapphira! The truth is, you cannot be saved by a set of rules because you cannot perfectly keep them...but, that does not change the absolute irrefutable fact that the rules are there! You are saved because Jesus, the one man who could keep them perfectly, places his costume on you...essentially that sinful dirty evil little person(you) now looks like Jesus...so the gatekeeper lets him in! That is how this thing called the cloak of Jesus righteousness works...it's the most wonderful form of magic there is...true magic that can only come from the being that created everything from nothing and who has always existed.

God made his covenant with the children of Israel. The promise originally given to Abraham is that he would become a nation. ..ie the Israelites ..is children of Israel. Your claim the Sinai covenant didn't apply to them all is ridiculous. The covenant to the Israelites builds upon the promise given to Adam and Eve. I don't know how you can be so blind to the point of these promises and covenants? The point was, God was going to send a saviour to redeem his people back to him for their transgression. Do you not understand that this happened BECAUSE GODS ETERNAL LAW HAD BEEN BROKEN! All have sinned and fall short because of Adam. The covenants were promises of salvation. You seem to think these promises were exclusive...that is because the wivestails you have been taught tell you that prior to Jesus death only Israelites could be saved. That is a bogus theology...how on earth do you think the mixed multitude also left Egypt and were given the same 10comnandment speech by Moses at Sinai? Do you not make the connection between them, the parable of the good Samaritan, and the Gospel going to the Gentiles? They are all required to be under the covenant given at Sinai because it's based on the same promise given to Abraham and to Eve! You keep saying the two covenants are different ..quote proof of that please and I will then show you exactly why you are listening to wives tails.

What? I don't think you have understood the point at all. The law was only a burden because the Pharisees and Sadducees made it a burden. How a person can possibly believe that a perfect God cocked up with the law and therefore changed it. That is heresy of theistic evolutionary proportions...they believe God was still learning when he initiated the evolutionary process. Honestly, I don't think you have thought this through very well at all.