Lanakila

Sorry to burst your bubble shilou God uses human instruments to do his will. Romans 13 says its governments job to restrain evil, and punish evildoers. We Christians that are in favor of a war with Iraq subscribe to just war theory, which is Christian philosophy of Thomas Aquinas, Augustine ect. Look it up on the internet with a google search, and you will get a bunch of hits. That doesn't mean we don't care for the Iraqi people, quite the contrary, we care so much we want to relieve them from this evil murdering dictator.

That is so beyond ecumenical isn't it? Wow, must have been the one organized by Oprah. My hubby as a Chaplain has to pray non-sectarian prayers when people are present by "no choice" of their own. In other words, at Battalion meetings, and ceremonies. He prays in the name of the Lord and does not mention Jesus, but of course God knows who he is talking to, and so do we, amen. There is a way to be non-sectarian and inoffensive to most (of course the atheist would still dislike it).

Pilate in John 18:38

The scriptures you give in 1 Cor are not the job of the Government to obey. These scriptures apply to the church. To apply them the way you did is committing the logical fallacy of equivocation. That is saying two things mean the same thing, when in actuallity you have to pull scriptures totally out of context to get that point of view. Romans chapter 13 is where you get to the job of the Government (any for that matter) Romans 13 1. Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. Our Military is being God's servant to bring wrath and punishment upon an evil dictator. To say that the Christian can't be a part of our military or even participate in government is extreme. A good study I would recommend to you Isaiah is Just War Theory of Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, Augustine. A Just War is a distinctly Christian philosophy, and goes outside of the church. America is not the Church.

Tarrier, funny you mention that about the funding of the UN. That is one thing that gets my goat bigtime. 70% you say, that is astounding. We pay most of those guys paychecks, and they get to tell us what to do, and hem and haw, about inspectors and inspections that aren't working. Its the democrats that want the UN on our side, because they want to cover their own backsides come next election time.

We are not being left behind by our military as 90,000 + National Guard and Reserves have been called up, and many more are on standby. They may not be as skilled as their active duty counterparts, but given a little time, they will be brought up to speed. We do need to be vigilent and watchfull of strange activities. Now I am going to be non-politically correct: we need to watch the Arab/Muslim communities too. I mean the FBI and other law-enforcement, as well as civilians living near those areas.

This replacement theology you are speaking of is called "Covenant Theology". Many denominations of the reformed stripe teach this. Some denominations have a looser hold on their individual churches, so they may not as a denomination teach this, but many members of that denomination actually believe it. This covenant theology also comes with it a a-mil or post-mil perspective. In other words they believe that we are already living in the millenium. To believe this you have to alegorize many, many scirptures.

I wasn't pointing any fingers, and I am not coming against anyone on this board. I am opposed to legalism the same way that Paul was in the NT. We aren't under law but grace, amen. I agree with Paul that we should not use that liberty to sin (God forbid). I have no guilt feelings at all on the issue of whether or not to celebrate Christmas. I don't see how celebrating Christmas is sinful though. We mix pagan with holy everyday when we go out into the world to earn a living. Most of us work with lost people so that we may earn money to provide for our families. This is not any more sinful than having fun on a certain day of the year. I don't worship the Christmas tree any more than I worship the steeple on the top of my church building. I really have no conviction on this at all. We don't celebrate Halloween, but I don't judge those Christians that do. Christians are different. My reasons for not celebrating Halloween have more to do with what I came out of before I came to Christ than obedience, so I don't judge those who (eat meat, celebrate that day). That is what the Apostle was teaching by the way, that we take into account where we came from (before Christ) when it comes to issues like this. A Messianic believer likely won't celebrate Christmas or Easter and that is totally understandable. We from the gentile background however have no real reason to abstain. Saying it mixes pagan with Christian doesn't work, because we have to do that everyday. We Christian's vote, use money, work in the world, ect ect ect, everyday. We are to be in the world but not of the world. I really have no conviction against owning a Christmas tree or putting up lights, giving gifts ect. I have examined my heart, and know where these things came from. So I feel I am the one being judged here. What WIP was talking about is principles in scripture. Yes, in some places we have principles that if followed we will be blessed, have a long life, ect. Some things aren't clearly taught as sin, but there are principles against them anyway for example smoking isn't mentioned in the scripture. I mentioned once before that the scripture about our body being the Temple of the Holy Spirit isn't clear enough on that issue, but we aren't to be held captive by anything. Addictions obviously hold a person captive, so therefore it would be a sin for a Christian to continue smoking, and not try to quit. Romans 14:3-5 3. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5. One man considers one day more sacred than another;

If someone is accusing you of legalism you had better bet, that there is a good reason. We don't make this stuff up. My liberty in Christ is something I cherish and I won't be put under any mans legalistic bondage again. Being a Christian isn't a list of do's and a much longer list of don'ts. It is a relationship with a living, loving, Lord who happens to be with you and in you if you are his, amen. This reality changed my prayer life immensely by the way from one of duty, to one of joy. I don't go to church out of obligation and I don't read my Bible out of obligation and I don't skip the junk from hollywood out of obligation either. When we rent a umm video and it turns out to be junk (full of sex) or go to a movie and get the same junk we get up and walk out. The Holy Spirit in us convicts us and we don't stay even though we paid our money. But, do we stay away from all entertainment because its evil and sinful? No the answer is that we would miss out on a lot of good movies, and good times if we just decided they were all bad. The same thing goes with Holiday's which are of pagan origin. Some people don't celebrate their Birthdays either (JW's). We need to be careful that we aren't being so separated from all pagan practices that we are in a sense monks, with a high and mighty attitude. God is the one we should be trying to please, and if you are the one with the convictlon you are the weaker brother, in a sense. But, should you be a weaker brother when you should be eating meat instead of drinking milk? Obedience isn't legalism, when its obeying things written in scripture. Legalism is adding rules to the Christian life to make a person feel more righteous. Christianity isn't rules its a relationship. I obey God rather than men, myself. How about you? God didn't say in the NT that we are to practice ritual cleansing, or tithe jot and tittle, so I don't do it. In fact Jesus had alot to say to those Pharisees who kept the law, but their hearts were so far from God. God didn't tell us in the NT when to worship. Why must we try to add to God's Word? There is a curse to those that add to the Word, so I would be careful in this vein, if I were you.

If they actually get their hearts right with God, isn't that a good thing? Many people get saved around this holiday season. I myself was saved soon after a Christmas 17 years ago. Steve's exegete was excellent by the way. We are to live in the world but not be of the world. How that is applied in the individual Christian's life is just that: individual. We at one time did away with Christmas trees and tv's and movies ect, ect. Did this depriving ourselves make us more spiritual? No, to the contrary it made us very judgemental of the rest of the Christian church that did hold to our exact convictions. We got ourselves so far from God in our separated Christian bubble, and so far separated that we became like monks. If we want to be in the world but not of the world, we need to be careful that our convictions don't cause us to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. Again I highly recommend a book by Coleman called: The Pharisees Guide To Total Holiness. This book explains that where God is silent (like perhaps in the celebrating Christmas or not issue) we should remain silent. Its not our job to set up boundaries for other Christians. Let the Holy Spirit and God's Word be our guide and not other Christians or even churches. Being in the world but not of it is hard enough without someone telling you that you are all messed up, when God hasn't convicted you of any of this stuff. I pray for you my legalistic brethern that you may grow in the "grace" and "knowlege" of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Read Romans and Galatian's if you still have questions about this issue.

The New Living Translation is actually a paraphrase, but the verse you gave puts a better understanding of the new life that have in Christ than the former RSV. IMO

I am saying it is both, either one or the other, or even the world. In other words sometimes we are tempted by our own fleshly desires, sometimes its a lust of the eyes (world), sometimes its pride of life (our fleshly wisdom) God does not tempt anyone but we are tempted when we are drawn away by our own lusts. World, Flesh, Devil exclusive of each other or in combination that is what the scripture teaches Fabrice.

Ad hominen attacks on King James person have nothing to do with this debate, as do attacks on Wescott and Hort. We could get into the translators themselves if you want to do that, but that is a waste of time, either pro or con IMO.

Many people want to blame satan for everything Fabrice. (The devil made me do it) In my experience satan although alive and well on planet earth does not need to be involved in such things, because we in our flesh, let that dead man live. Remember my post on Watchman Nee's book? I still recommend that book, but if not just check out Romans 7 & 8. Paul is teaching us how to gain victory over that old man, that tries to act like it is in control.

Snowdoove I will too be your friend. If you would like my email or IM name just let me know. I soon will be lonesome too as my hubby is deploying to the middle east. For him alones advice is also good for me. Keeping busy either by helping others is what I need to do too. If I sit home alone all the time, I will also get depressed. Many people get depressed in the winter too, so maybe that has something to do with yours.

Sin hurts us. God wants what is best for us, and that is why we should not sin as it is not God's best. Smoking does polute God's temple, but the main sin in it is being under the control of a substance, instead of the Holy Spirit. (all things are lawful unto me, but I will not be under control of anything, my paraphrase) Addictions are hard to break, and nicotene is one of the hardest. I have seen people struggle with this for years and years.

But, Kenneth Copeland may be and likely is wrong. I don't remember Jesus healing everyone (I could be wrong).

Very good post Dr Steve. I prefer the NIV myself, and have studied this out and been on the KJV only side for a very long time. My pastor teaches from the NASB and it is good also. If you are really into researching this, Fabrice and RC I recommend you look into both sides of the KJV debate, not just the onlyist viewpoint. D.A Carson, and James White have some very good books on this topic. The onlyist view has some major flaws in it. This debate is raging on the Baptist Boards forum.

Amen Cat. Any religion that offers supposed salvation by works and especially without Christ is evil, no matter whether its adherants murder people if they don't convert or not. The world is focused on the religion of Islam right now, but Hinduism is just as evil and so is Buddhism ect. Salvation is only found in Jesus, amen. Man wants to work to get it (pride issue), and work will not ever restore that relationship that was broken by sin. All these religions do nothing with the sin issue.

Bernie, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Well, Fabrice Christians are responsible to be good stewards of the money we get. So, stealling isn't the right term IMO. Guilting and teaching the seed faith (prosperity) teaching isn't stealling it is false teaching for the purpose of gaining riches, which by the way is working in his ministry, and in those of others like him. Christians are supposed to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, and many aren't I am afraid.

IMO means In My Opinion, sorry. IMHO means in my honest opinion. This is my definition of the fruit of someone serving God. Or at least they are definetly trying. Some people try for years and never win a convert, but if they don't try to win people (Great commission) than I am a little more concerned, that something is lacking. We need to be about the "Father's Business" and that is winning men, women, boys and girls to Jesus, by all means, like Paul. The pastors job is to teach and instruct his people to do the work of the ministry, which is evangelism by every means possible.TV evangelists are missing this (not all) in my opinion, Billy Graham notwithstanding.

Not sure of the healings, that is what I mean about Benny Hinn. I do know this though the prosperity gospel is junk theology. The Bible does not teach that riches are the fruit of a Christian who walks with God. Jesus did not even have a place to lay his head, amen. The prosperity gospel only works in the west and America, because the rest of the world isn't rich, Christians included. Riches may or may not be the blessing of God, but the lack of them does not mean you're not blessed, and the antithesis is also true, riches does not necessarily mean the ministry is of God either. The fruit I was talking about is souls saved, and lives changed. I have watched Benny Hinn and he talks about Jesus alot, but I have not heard the gospel out of his mouth. I am sure someone will correct me, but like I said before I don't really like to watch him. For some reason it seems phoney to me (not sure why).

Fabrice I have a good book I would recommend to you. It is called: The Normal Christian Life, by Watchman Nee. George has it at worthybooks or you can order it from Amazon.com. The book of Romans Chapters 7 & 8 explain this very well Fabrice, and I would advice a study on those chapters using Watchman Nee's book. Paul had this same struggle with sin (we all do). Does that make you lost, no? Lost people don't struggle with sin, they just sin with no struggle at all. Knowing whether someone is a true Christian by their fruits is not judging, its knowing that there are wolves in sheep's clothing among us, blending in in the church. They will act like Christians at church and have a totally different lifestyle at home. Paul admonishes us to: Examine ourselves daily, so that we are sure we are in the faith.

You will know them by their fruits, Fabrice. I understand your confusion as you aren't here in the USA to hear both sides of an issue. The best bet is let God be these men's judge and keep your eyes on him and not men. Do I believe everything they say (even those things they say are from God), no? Does that mean God does not use them, no? There are thread on here about Benny Hinn, and the opinion is divided among true believers. I don't buy all the stuff he does myself and can't stand to watch him on tv, but that is just it my opinion. Billy Graham is a great man of God IMO. He has won more people to the Lord Jesus Christ than probably 25 regular Christians put together. That is some fruit there, huh. That is what I mean by you will know them by their fruits. Not only that Billy Graham's son Franklin has a great ministry going (Samaritans purse). Passing the faith on to the next generation is some great fruit too. Does that mean Billy is perfect and every statement he makes is excathedra? The answer is no, and when he admitted that he believed there are aliens on other planets (maybe, not sure on this might be a rumor) he was not accurate IMO. So in other words, keep our eyes on God, and our own hearts right, because He is coming back soon, amen. :lightbulb: