FreeGrace

Absolutely nothing. That's what I thought. It is no big deal. So, what will you do when you find out that He died on a cross?

Big deal. How come EVERY depiction of Jesus is on a cross, NOT a pole? And WHY the big deal that He died on a pole away?

No. I pointed out what you haven't clearly made a point about your claim of a pole vs a cross. So, what is the big deal?

There is no "He could of". We know WHAT He did, and we know WHY He did it. The Bible tells us. God's plan required a legal execution, which is why none of the desires of the Jews to kill Him worked out. He went through a legal execution. You still haven't made any point of significance about why a pole should be used rather than a cross.

Nice. However, please then explain HOW He could have said "tetelestai" in the perfect indicative tense. According to Dan Wallace, author of Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics, the perfect indicative "speaks of an event in the past with results existing afterwards - the perfect speaking of results existing in the present". p.572-3 Another Greek scholar, Moulton, points out the perfect tense is "the most important, exegetically, of all the Greek tenses." p.573 "Or as Zerwick puts it, the perfect tense is used for "indicating not the poast action as such but the present state of affairs resulting from the past action." p.573 Point is: the ONLY REASON Jesus could use the perfect tense is because He had ALREADY PAID the sin debt for humanity. The ancient Greeks used the word the way we use the phrase "paid in full" today. His actions on the cross (death for our sins) was a completed action when He said it. If His physical death was necessary to pay our sin debt, He could not have said what He did. We also know that the death that paid our sins was spiritual because He asked in an instructive way (to us) "My God, My God, WHY have YOU forsaken Me?". Physically, death is separation of soul and body, per James 2:26. Spiritually, death is separation from God. Jesus was clearly separated from the other Members of the Trinity while He was on the cross bearing our sin. No doubt about it.

"wiped"?? Huh?? So let's not speculate. I'm sure it wasn't nearly as complete as what Lee Strobel. He was a professional at gathering FACTS and EVIDENCE. Why would you think I thought such a strange idea? You're failing to make a point. He didn't die from crucifixion. The Bible TELLS us how He died and I backed that up with what He said in John 10 about it. The FACT that He died much sooner than the other 2 shows that He didn't die from crucifixion, as they did. He dismissed His spirit. He was fully in charge the whole time He was on the cross. Up to the moment He left on His terms.

Lee Strobel, the former legal editor for the Chicago Tribune back in the 80's refutes that completely. What is clear from the text is that Jesus was dead much quicker than what was typical, which is why Pilate had to ask a centurion to confirm it. The other 2 on their crosses were still alive. That is why their legs were broken, so they couldn't lift up to breathe. Everything except your misunderstanding about the fact that Jesus dismissed His spirit. That's why He was dead so much sooner than usual. btw, unfortunately, it's almost unknown that the death Jesus died on the cross wasn't physical. If so, then what He said was wrong. His last recorded words, just before dismissing His spirit was "it is finished". In the Greek, the tense is 'perfect', meaning "completed with lasting results". If physical death was required, He simply couldn't and wouldn't have said that. He could have said, "it is ABOUT to be finished", but His words are accurate. When He said "tetelestai" the sin debt was ALREADY paid. So the death He died wasn't physical but spiritual. Meaning, He was separated from the Father and Spirit while bearing our sins. That is why He said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" He knew exactly why but said it to instruct us. Anyway, no charge for that valuable information. 😁

I corrected Locust on this. The Bible says differently. 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. v.6 means as long as we are alive on earth "we are away from the Lord". v.8 means after we die we will be "with the Lord".

Not what the Bible says. 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. v.6 means as long as we are alive on earth we "are away from the Lord". v.8 means after we die, we are "with the Lord".

Could you take the time to provide some understanding that you assume most on this forum don't have?

If you did, it was couched in total confusion. I still don't see any relevance to whether a pole or cross was used. But what I am absolutely not confused about is that every depiction of Christ's crucifixion uses a cross. So, whether a cross or pole, the mechanics are the SAME. The person has to lift themselves up to breathe. You've not proven that arms up vs side make a difference. What is really sad is your inability to understand that Jesus actively left His body on the cross to go and preach to the spirits in prison. You've seen the verses.

You're just trying not to get it. The point of the example was that a drowning man who grabs onto a lifebuoy while being pulled in cannot take credit. And you knew that, because that's the Calvinist charge against free will. Which is nonsense. Rather, your weird understanding of God's sovereignty makes Him a puppet master and certain elect humans puppets. That is a pathetic view of salvation. I reject that talking point because there are NO such verses that say that. And you have zero evidence for that unbiblical view. Or you would be quoting the verses that say what you say. This is what the Bible says: Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. This verse refutes Calvinism. It acknowledges that men can please God by faith and that men CAN believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him. If Calvinism were true, this verse wouldn't be in the Bible. As to believing that God exists, the Bible also says that NO ONE has any excuse for not Rom 1:19 - since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. If God is the One who causes belief, how can anyone be "without excuse". The ONLY REASON is that man is free to believe or refuse to. That is what makes man accountable. Did you notice that God has revealed Himself through His creation, which is why man is without excuse.

So, why are ALL the representations of the crucifixion have a cross and NONE have a pole. Not even one. You have no case whatsoever. And you can't explain why there is any signficance anyway.

You are excused.

So it seems you can't answer my question. Got it. That's ok. I didn't really expect one, since I can't imagine why pole vs cross is quite irrelevant.

Doesn't matter what one likes or not. That is what the Bible says. Sad, but you really seem serious. So, here are a variety of verses that refute your claim. New International Version When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. English Standard Version When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. Berean Standard Bible When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished.” And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit. Berean Literal Bible Therefore when Jesus took the sour wine, He said "It has been finished." And having bowed the head, He yielded up the spirit. King James Bible When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. New American Standard Bible Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. Legacy Standard Bible Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. Christian Standard Bible When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then bowing his head, he gave up his spirit. Holman Christian Standard Bible When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” Then bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. American Standard Version When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit. English Revised Version When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit. International Standard Version After Jesus had taken the wine, he said, "It is finished." Then he bowed his head and released his spirit. Majority Standard Bible When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, ?It is finished.? And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit. NET Bible When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, "It is completed!" Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. New Heart English Bible When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished." He bowed his head, and gave up his spirit. Weymouth New Testament As soon as Jesus had taken the wine, He said, "It is finished." And then, bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit. World English Bible When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. Your claim has been refuted by reality. Only if words don't really mean anything to you. What Jesus did was what HE DID. The voice is active, which means He performed the action of the verb. It has nothing to do with any of that. He means He RELEASED His own spirit, because His mission on earth was compete. He had nothing more to do. John 10:17 - The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life —only to take it up again. 18 - No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” From Jesus Himself. Your argument is with Him and His words. Jesus Himself said His life was in His hands. But you can believe what you want. Because they didn't understand. But what does that have to do with your argument against what Jesus said in John 10 and on the cross?

Each verse is clear about there being a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved. So, what do you think each verse says? Except "when He comes" refers to the Second Coming, as Heb 9:28 says. Your description is dizzying. Where do you get your info from? Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Please prove that the red words don't refer to the First Advent and the blue words don't refer to the Second Advent. Feel free to exegete the verse. You're going to have to explain yourself because what you say isn't true at all. How in the world could my view be a denial of Christ's resurrection??? Or His ascension to heaven?? And what do the 2 witnesses have to do with the Second Advent? I'll bet you think they will be resurrected after the 3.5 days. Yes, their bodies will rise from the dead and ascend to heaven a second time, but there is NO evidence that they received glorified immortal bodies. So don't assume they do.

Rather, my example reveals the gross error of Calvinist thinking. It proves the Calvinist claim that free will means men save themselves is WRONG. You are free to believe that talking point, but the Bible teaches that men believe from their heart, and when they believe, they are saved. Not before, and you know there are no verses that say what your talking points say.

Then you cannot believe (or understand) what Romans 2:14,15 says. But then, puppets don't have a conscience.

Again, you miss the point, I was comparing that example to the Calvinist claim that if man does the believing, he is saving himself, which is totally bizarre. When a person believes the gospel, it is comparable to a drowning man who knows he is drowning. The lifeguard who throws the lifebuoy is comparable to Jesus to "pulls the drowning man to safety" and gets all the credit for saving the life. But since that refutes the opinions and talking points of Calvinism, you won't admit it.

Since the Bible refers to the Bereans "who were more noble than the Thessalonians", it seems you don't believe the Bible, by your "if there were Bereans" comment. But I'm not surprised. Wow. Openly rejecting what the Bible says. All you say are talking points, with no verses to back up anything of what you post. You have revealed the problem with your theology. It's not biblical.

I am quite content to correct all your errors. I believe in truth over opinions. And I prove it by quoting verses that say what I say.

OK, here is the defining moment for you: so what? What does that prove?

Why is this detail significant? So, to be clear, you believe Jesus was nailed to a pole because of your experience with pole barns?? Really?? How come there are NO poles rather than crosses? Do you have any examples of Jesus on a pole, like the RCC? Or even off a pole, like evangelicals have?

No. Please listen more carefully this time. I believe what Eph 2:8 says in plain words: we are saved through faith. But it is obvious that you don't understand that, based on the talking points you keep repeating. Oh, there's that made up word, conjure up. So let me ask you: when you have a thought, did you "conjure it up"? All of man's thought come from his consciousness, whether you knew that or not. And from his consciousness, guided by his conscience, which was given by God, he makes decisions about what to believe or not. Since I'm very familiar with Scripture, it is easy for me to spot all the errors in your talking points, none of which you have quoted Scripture that supports your claims. But you favor your talking points over Scripture, it seems, since you seem rather uninterested in what the Bible says.