FreeGrace

I explained it clearly and thoroughly in my last post to you. I proved from the Bible that unbelievers will be resurrected after the millennial reign of Christ. Rev 20:4-6. They are the implied SECOND resurrection. Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all plainly say that the saved and the unsaved will be resurrected. So, the only issue left is what kind of body will the unsaved be resurrected in? Well, we already have examples in the Bible. There are 2 accounts from the OT where dead bodies came back to life, and numerous accounts in the gospels of people coming back from death. So, what is holding you back from the obvious FACT that all unbelievers will be resurrected back into their mortal bodies. So, when cast into the LOF, what do you think will die again? Obviously, the body. I did it in my last post and also in this post. You have all the info you need to understand. This is an erroneous statement. Kinda like demanding your own favorite words to prove something. Well, the Trinity is TRUE but the word doesn't occur in the Bible. That does not make the concept untrue. No one has a right to demand specific wording. You have the FACTS. So you don't need a cleanly worded statement that satisfies your specificities. When a mortal body is cast into the LOF, it will die. And since all unbelievers will have died by the end of the Millennium, it will DIE AGAIN when cast into the LOF. OK, So clearly indicates the Bible. Sheeeeeeeeeeesh.

Heb :27 says, "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,". So everyone will die. Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all say there is a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved. 1 Cor 15:23 says the resurrection for the saved will be "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, which ends the Tribulation. Rev 20:4-6. Since the Bible says there will be a resurrection for the unsaved, what other kind of body will they be raised in, other than their own?? Why would the Bible need to say what is quite obvious. They sure won't receive a glorified immortal body, like the saved will because the Bible doesn't say they will, and why would God give those who will be condemned for never having believed a body that won't die? Makes no sense. Rev 20:4-6 also notes the resurrection at the Second Advent is the FIRST resurrection, proving there will be another one. Which will be 1,000 years AFTER the FIRST one. So what ELSE is there that will die a SECOND TIME but the resurrected mortal body of the unsaved? The FACT that the lake of fire is also called the second death is the proof. What do you think will die AGAIN regarding unbelievers?

This definition doesn't address the soul. True for the body only. And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE. So says the Bible. Good grief! That's rather limiting. It seems then that you try to spiritualize everything. Is that right? The problem with that is that anyone can say nearly anything when they spiritualize. The Bereans didn't do that with Paul's preaching. They simply compared what he SAID with what Scripture SAID. This is a litotes, a literary technique: ironic understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of its contrary (e.g., you won't be sorry, meaning you'll be glad). Since Jesus said plainly that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, that even includes those who fail to overcome. The Bible teaches clearly that there will be only two resurrections, and everyone will be at one or the other, and they are 1,000 years apart. Those who miss the first one will clearly be present for the second one, and then cast into the lake of fire. One must define which "last day". There are several. It is clear that the two resurrections are 1,000 years apart, so these verses refer to the last day of life on the present earth. After all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire, the present heavens and earth pass away and there will be a new heaven and earth. This is the beginning of eternity. However, there is the "last day" of natural life on earth, after which Jesus Christ returns to earth, resurrects all believers in immortal bodies, who will either reign with Him or serve Him in His kingdom on earth. So believers will be in supernatural bodies, just like Jesus' resurrection body. There are 2 judgment days. One for believers, called the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Bema, and Great White Throne judgment for unbelievers. And they are 1,000 years apart. All believers will be resurrected just before the Bema and all unbelievers will be resurrected back into their mortal bodies just before the GWT. The lake of fire is a real place, where the beast and false prophet will be cast into at the end of the Tribulation. Then, at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ, Satan and all his fallen angel followers will be cast into the LOF to join the beast and false prophet. And all of them will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever". The second death is when the still mortal resurrected body of unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire. That body will literally die again. This describes the Second Advent of Christ. It doesn't all happen at once. Contradiction of terms here. Once completely destroyed, there's nothing left. The Bible also speaks of "everlasting PUNISHMENT". Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” If there is nothing left, how can the "punishment" continue on forever? It can't. So Matt 25:46 proves that the LOF is eternal torment, just as Rev 20:10 says it is. A new earth and heavens is the reference. Not that there will be nothing left of unbelievers. They will remain in the LOF forever, just as Matt 25:46 says. Nothing here to support your claim. The point? The point? v.23 states plainly when the first resurrrection will be: at His coming. v.24 doesn't say "the end" comes next. The key is "when He shall habve delivered up the kingdom to God the father, when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power". iow, at the end of the Millennial kingdom. Again, more than 1 "last day".

Thanks for bringing up Lazarus and the rich man. Too many believers excuse the account as a parable, even though Jesus mentioned actually people and even Abraham in the account. It is clear He was speaking of 2 real people during His time on earth who both died and went to Hades. Quite a glimpse of the afterlife.

It isn't the opposite. Eternal life is an eternal existence. Death is the experience of existence apart from God. It doesn't say "eternal" death. You have added that word to the verse. First, lol, "an eternity" isn't "millions of years". That's a good one. The basic meaning of death is separation, and refers to the separation of soul from body, as James 2:26 says. When a person dies, it is common to refer to the person as having "passed away" even though the body is still with us. The Bible describes the lake of fire as the "second death". If you take words literally, what does that refer to? Only one thing: the resurrected but still mortal body DYING again when cast into the lake of fire. So unbelievers will physically die two times. That's only the physical part. Rev 20:10 makes very clear that there will be an eternity of torment. That means conscious experience for eternity. We don't need theories. We have the Bible and context is always key. In the book of Revelation, John uses the words "for ever and ever" MOSTLY to describe God. Do a word search on "for ever and ever" in Rev. You'll see. And you should know that God is absolutely eternal. And there are no verses that show "for ever and ever" to be simply an exaggeration. The fact that John included "day and night" right before "for ever and ever" gives the whole verse context for TIME. We know that "day and night" refers to a 24 hour period, or 1 day. So adding "for ever and ever" easily means a day never ending. There can be no other obvious meaning. The context from Revelation mostly describes eternal God. The word "hell" refers to Hades, which is merely the holding tank for all unbelievers when they die. Their soul remains in Hades until the Great White Throne judgment, and after being judged, every unbeliever will be cast into the LOF. What is your version of Rev 20:14 - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. What can die twice?

Really?? You ignore EVERY point I made to you and you just keep chugging along with your own thoughts. Is that how you think discussions work? Well, they don't. I asked you a lot of questions. Since you don't even address or acknowledge my points/questions, nor fix the way you "cite" verses, why should I continue banging my head against the wall? I did notice how you tried to explain John 5:24, but you aren't even close. The words are very clear and in plain language. There is nothing about 'falling down'. The verse clearly SAYS "whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life". You've tried to twist it into something else that it DOESN'T SAY. Since that's how you "read" Scripture, there seems no point to continue. When believers twist what Jesus said, I lose interest.

I referenced v.6 and 8 in 2 Cor 5. Unfortunately, it hasn't been easy following some of your points. Trying to do my best. 2 Cor 5:1 doesn't say what you are saying above either. There is nothing about people in our household preparing our corpse to be dealt with cremation/burial. The "building of God", is in heaven. So I'm not sure of your point. In this verse, "dissolved" simply means to rot and decompose. We don't "have to". God takes care of it. It's not our choice. Rather, we "will put off our earthly body". Not, we MUST. That is an expanded explanation for WHEN believers receive their resurrection bodies. Yep.

Since it seems your opinion is that salvation can be lost, EVEN THOUGH Jesus made it very clear in John 5:24 that whoever believes (present tense) HAS (present tense) eternal life. That means WHEN (the MOMENT) a person believes in Christ, they possess eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said He gives them (believers - Jn 5:24) eternal life and they shall never perish. So your opinion is in direct conflict with the very clear words of Jesus. Right. Seems you believe that believers can perish, even though Jesus said they shall never perish. Well, what is your opinion about it then? Your admitted failure to see how it is "only no longer being able to repent" doesn't mean it means something else, esp when that is exactly what the verse SAYS. What is the point here? That's what I've done. I have no idea what you've done. The point of the author here is to MOVE ON towards spiritual maturity, by the words "not laying again the foundation of . . ." iow, let's move from the basic doctrines to the advanced doctrines. The words are clear: "it is IMPOSSIBLE" . . . "to renew theme again unto repentance". Is this what drives your opinion about losing salvation? (the red words?) Read the 2 verses carefully. What, exactly, is "to be burned"? You've only got 2 choices: either "the land" that produces, or the "thorns and briers" that are rejected. "the land" is the producer of works; "herbs" or "thorns/briers". It's not the land that burns, but what is growing on the land. Believers either produce fruit, or junk. The junk will be burned up. Even Paul wrote about that in 1 Cor 3. v.12 lists what man "produces": Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Red words are pleasing to God, and blue words are rejected by God. v.13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Every believer will be evaluated at the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ. So "fire" doesn't always mean "buring in hell", as many assume. It refers to evaluation. v.14 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. iow, if the believer builds on this foundation the valuable things (gold, silver, precious stones, all of which please God) he will be REWARDED at the BEMA. v.15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Real clear. The green words plainly say that the rejected works (wood, hay stubble) will be burned in the evaluation, and "he shall suffer loss". The blue words REFUTE any notion of losing salvation. "but he himself SHALL BE SAVED, but as by evaluation (fire). There is no loss of salvation teaching here. God promises eternal life to those who believe in Christ, and God promises reward for faithful service. Seems you are making a distinction without a difference. It is the thorns/briers that will be burned. Not the believer but his rejected works. Just like 1 Cor 3:12-15 says. Why did you quote this? And why do you persist in leaving out the book and chapter number? You know it is rude to do that. And you left out the most important; what you think Paul was meaning. What is certain is that are no words that describe loss of salvation. So what do you think Paul was teaching?

The words "eternal death" does not occur together in the Bible, as the words "eternal life" do. The lake of fire is called the SECOND death because when the unbeliever is resurrected back into his/her mortal body, it will die again. But the immaterial (soul) will"be tormented day and night, for ever and ever". Rev 20:10

RIght. We have been born again, , therefore children of God, and since children, heirs of God. Rom 8:17a I don't recall Peter writing this. Paul did in 2 Cor 5:6,8. Yes, Peter knew his time was near and would die and go to be with the Lord.

The "all things" is a reference to the resurrection body of all believers. Correct. I don't know what you mean by the same thing. Paul said it in 2 Cor 5:6,8. Yes, our resurrection body is waiting for us in heaven, to be given at the Second Advent.

I sure hope that every believer who knows the words to that song have a huge problem with that song! The Beatles were known for being "anti-Christ". Even their manager once said, "I'm anti-Christ myself, but they (Beatles) are more anti-Christ than I am". iow, they are atheists to the core. And that song reflects that clearly. Since Jimmy Carter was known to be a Baptist SS teacher, one would assume his family were all familiar with the Bible and salvation. How that song got in is shocking. How sad!

It is that simple. The Bible has very clear verses in "plain language". There should be no confusion about what happens to believers when they die. Then that's the problem: teachers who are not teaching what the Bible says. Where does the Bible teach "blind obedience"? I am very grateful that the Holy Spirit included Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Application of this verse to EVERY teacher/pastor/etc will reveal whether they teach the truth or not. If they can't provide verses that clearly say what they say, then they are false teachers. This is a forum. For discussion. So this is the time and place for criticizing what is not found in the Bible. Seems clear enough. We praise God the Father, who through His great mercy, He gives us a new birth (being saved/born again/regenerated) into a living confidence that comes through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. iow, the resurrection of Christ proves the power behind the message of the gospel. Well, to be complete, He made a way for mankind to go to heaven through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. By grace. Correct. All sin must be paid for or there can be no salvation. But, Christ's death saves no one. It is only by grace through faith that we are saved. Eph 2:8 The text says that "everyone's chains came loose". Not just the believers. The jailer's question was clear; he asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul's answer was equally clear: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. His question was just the first above. Amen.

This is the summary of Spurgeon's understanding of the Arminian claim about free will: "Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved." First, I'm not a Calvinist, nor an Arminian, although both camps accuse me of being in the other camp. Whatever. It is obvious that 2 of the 3 point above are in error. Of course everyone has a will. Those who would argue against that aren't rational and there is no point trying to have a discussion with them. Paul even noted the fact in 1 Cor 7:37 - But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. Now, about the 2nd point: man's will is "entirely free". Well, let's see about that. But first, we must know what that even means. I've seen Calvinists use the ridiculous argument that man cannot change the weather, as if that's what a "free will" is. Well, that's not even rational. So, let's understand the simplicity of man's will. The will can be thought of as the "decider" in the intellect. When options are presented, or are available, the intellect considers each of the available options, and DECIDES which one to CHOOSE. This is actually how people live; making many decisions every day, based on what options are available. It starts in the morning: the choice of whether to get out of bed or not. Then comes what clothing to put on, then what to eat for breakfast, and it goes on and on. All of the choices in these things comes from 'free will'. The better term is "freedom of choice". For that is what it is. So, freedom indicates the availability of options from which to choose. If an option isn't available, that choice or option isn't available, and the person isn't free to choose that option. Very simple. Regarding the gospel, the issue is one of trust. Do you trust that God exists, and that what He promises is true? So, what are the options when the gospel is presented and understood? Whether to accept it as true, or to reject it as not true. So, 2 options are in play. And the Bible says that "men REFUSE to believe" in Acts 14:2 and 19:9. So the FACT that man CAN refuse to believe, means man is able to believe. The Calvinist claim of "total depravity" is in error by going too far. Of course man is unable to save himself, but that doesn't mean, nor does the Bible say that man cannot believe the gospel. And since there are 2 verses that specifically say that man REFUSES to believe proves that man CAN believe. It makes no sense to agree to only 1 option available. If there is only 1 option, that isn't even a choice. That's where we can get into the idea of puppetry; the puppeteer pulls all the strings and the puppet does ONLY what the puppeteer causes. That is basically Calvinism in a nutshell, though Calvinists strongly argue against that. But it is obvious beyond doubt. They just don't want to admit it. Also, if man is unable to believe, then no one is accountable for disbelief. If it is God through regeneration causing belief, then God alone is responsible for who believes. Where does the Bible teach that? Nowhere. Now for the 3rd point from above: "Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved". No they don't. That is just a silly idea. Willingness is a choice. How does one "make themselves willing"? It's simply a choice. Let's ask the obvious question: how does anyone make a choice when presented with options? Do they somehow "work themselves up" before they can make a choice? I certainly have never experienced such "mental gymnastics" before making a choice. For me, and for everyone else, making a choice is a natural action. We evaluate the choices (options) and go with what seems best. How is that "making ourselves willing" to choose from among the available options? It isn't, plain and simple. So, the Bible is clear; men REFUSE to believe and men believe. Both are a choice. It is that simple. The Bible teaches that man is accountable and responsible for his actions. That proves that man is free to choose from among available options. So neither Arminians nor Calvinists are correct regarding what free will is. Man's will isn't free unless there are available options from which to choose.

I'm curious why some believers have such strange ideas about what happens to believers after death. When I ask where their ideas are taught in the Bible, I get jo answers. So it seems these believers just make up stuff. Weird.

Seems you think we take our sinful nature to heaven with us. Why?

Very well said! You do not because it is not a biblical concept. It is closely related to the view of atheists, who think that after death there is nothing. That means no consequencees, but the Bible is very clear about consequences. 👍

Does this mean salvation can be lost? This is not about loss of salvation. It is about the fact that those who drift toward the law will not be restored to repentance. That has nothing to do with salvation. This was only applicable during Jesus' earthly ministry. Check the context. Jews were ascribing Jesus' miracles to Satan. The miracles came from the Holy Spirit. So, basically, they were calling the miracles from the Holy Spirit as being from Satan. iow, these Jews were SO NEGATIVE towards Jesus as Messiah, they would NEVER believe in Him. These Jews SAW the miracles and still refused to believe in Him. It is an error to misunderstand "final condition" as "end of life" or "where they will be after death". The majority of English translations have: "become worse to them than the first" or "than the beginning". So it refers simply to "life after returning to entangling again in the corruption of the world". The point is about God's divine discipline, per Heb 12:11. It will be painful for those who return to the corruption of the world. This refers to "the sin unto death" as Paul indicated in 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (euphemism for physical death). God's discipline began with weakness, progressed to sickness, and culminated in physical death. Examples, 1 Cor 5:5, Acts 5:1-10, etc. God takes home some of His children who refuse to cooperate. This isn't about spiritual death at all. It is about physical death. See above. Here is absolute proof that salvation cannot be lost. I ask anyone who thinks so to address these 2 verses and show me where my error is. John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. So, believing and having (possessing) are in the same tense, which means they occur at the same time. So Jesus' words here prove that the possession of eternal life occurs WHEN a person believes in Christ. John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Here, we learn WHO gives the gift of eternal life; Jesus Himself. And He tells us the RESULT of being given eternal life, which occurs WHEN a person believes in Him: they shall never perish. This is an ironclad promise by Jesus Himself about those who have received eternal life. These 2 verses prove that none of the verses above them can refer to loss of salvation. So, after seeing these 2 verses, those who STILL believe that salvation can be lost are in disagreement with what Jesus taught.

Right. What I said . . . What's to interpret or speculate on? The words are quite plain and straightforward. Where do you think all those angels ARE? Sure. Christ went . . . where? That's the point. You haven'given your speculation about where. I just go by what the Bible says. I believe I covered on that, by mentioning fallen angels in prison (the abyss). I guess you don't realize that you said nothing different than what I said. You just gave more detail. One, there is no speculation. Just the plain words of Scripture, again. Two, explain how the plain words of Scripture are inferior. I don't understand that. I see the problem with your inferior speculation clearly. v.11 begins a list of communication gifts, for the strengthening of the growing church. v.9-10 describes where He went after His death and before His ascension. But v.11 and 12 are clearly about spiritual gifts specifically for the body of Christ and their edification. Always a good idea to check context, and the truth will become clear. 32 - God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 - Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 - For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, Paul tells us that Jesus was exalted to God's right hand (heaven) and then says that David did not ascend to heaven. He was referring to when David died. Why assume, conjecture or speculate that Paul was referring to WHEN Paul was writing?? Since you believe that all OT saints are still in Paradise, in Hades, what verse informs your speculation? Where do you get "former foes"? Of course Christ triumphed against Satan and sin when He died on the cross. And that is what He preached in Hades. The Bible does say anything about "former foes". I think you have some SPECK-ulation in your eye. Interesting how you "form" verses to align with your SPECK-ulations. "relatively more with the Lord"? Are you aware of where Hades is? Center of the earth, which is FARTHER away from heaven than those on the surface of the earth. I think your SPECK'S need adjusting I am convinced that heaven is a real place, not jus some "spiritual ethereal place" that can't be seen. Both Paul and John were taken to heaven and saw many things and John described souls under the altar who were talking and singing. The Lord has a real physical body and dead people are said to be "at home with the Lord", who is in heaven, according to the Bible. Acts 3:21 - Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. The previous edition of the NIV says "He must remain in heaven until . . . " The Greek word means "to retain, contain". This verse states clearly that Jesus stays in heaven until the Trib is over, when He will return to earth to reign as King. It means we are on earth and not in heaven. That doesn't make sense. Rev 19 reveals otherwise. Yes, of course Sam was in Paradise. That was OT times. He is now "at home with the Lord" since Jesus took all the saved from Paradise up with Him to heaven. There are no verses that support your SPECK-ulation. Both are in heaven with the Lord, awaiting His return to heaven and all of them following. But I didn't need to interpret (or SPECK-ulate) on anything. I provided straightforward plain language. Written in OT times, so of course all saved people went to Sheol, in Paradise. This doesn't support your SPECK-ulation. I've provided straightforward verses in plain language. Not SPECK-ulation.

There is not any verse that makes 1 Cor 15:23 say other than what it already clearly says. Yes, by claiming there are multiple resurrections/raptures, is an attempt to "get around" 1 Cor 15:23. There is no getting around it. Jesus and His disciples raised to life people during Jesus' ministry on earth. They weren't the singular resurrection where ALL believers will receive glorified immortal bodies. That's the difference. Every believer who dies is "at home with the Lord", which is Paul's description of where the dead are. Not their bodies, but their souls. Again, I ask for any verse that plainly describes any "enjoying an early rapture", or even a "strategic rapture". There aren't any. All you have is conjecture. Why wouldn't it be? Any more than 1 resurrection for all believers at the same event is a clear statement. Obviously it is the last word. And I gave 3 other verses that also state there is just 1 resurrection for the saved, so you're actually resisting against 4 verses, not just 1 Cor 15:23. It's the most popular because it is obviously what the Bible indicates concerning where the dead are. You still haven't shown ANY verses that plainly say what you say. When I apply the Berean verification method to your claims, they fail verification, as there are no verses that say what you say. And you're asking me to defend "the most popular belief"?? I've given plenty of verses that say that there is just 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the lost. That alone refutes your claims. Because before Christ's ascension, all saved people went to Hades, to the compartment called "Paradise", and all unsaved people also went to Hades, to a compartment called or described as "torments". Jesus referred to Paradise as "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16. When Christ died, He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison. 1 Pet 3:19 - in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison. The Bible also describes Jesus as taking believers to heaven after His resurrection. Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 - (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? Where else do you think some or all dead saints are, other than heaven? Don't forget 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. This couldn't any more clear about where the dead in Christ are right now. I'm curious about your answer to where some or all of the dead in Christ are, if not in heaven. And please include Scripture that says what you say.

Of course I admit that. In fact, I have been pointing out consistently that EVERY saved person in history who has died is NOW in heaven. So what? Doesn't support your claim. Oh, good grief. When I say "dead saints" I'm not talking about their bodies, which are in the ground on earth. No soul ever dies. I strongly reject the doctrine of annihilationism. All souls will exist forever, the saved with God and all the unsaved in the LOF. The problem is that we simply can't fully understand all that Paul wrote, because the Bible doesn't address the status or condition of souls in heaven. They are without their physical body, but they are also described as talking and singing in heaven. So what do you do about that? And again, there is only 1 resurrection of bodies, given at the Second Advent. So we DON'T KNOW how souls in heaven appear. No they aren't. Why didn't Paul include the concept of "rapture" in 2 Cor 5:6,8? 6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. I'm going with what Jesus said about how Lazarus got to Paradise - carried by angels. Except you are forgetting one tiny thing. What about all the living saints on earth who will survive the trib? You're leaving them out of the Bema, and Paul said ALL OF US will attend the Bema. 2 Cor 5:10 Well, that ignores all the surviving believers on earth. That isn't any "reward" granted. That is how ALL saints get from heaven back to earth. Therefore, your conjecture isn't logical. There is no rewad attached to the return with Christ. And you still have the problem of what God does with the non-rewarded saints still in heaven. And there's nothing in the Bible that says that. Not seeing a point here. Please summarize and show the differences/similarities and include the point. Jesus brings every saint in heaven with Him because that is the ONLY WAY for every believer to receive their glorified immortal resurrection body. Seems you keep forgetting that. The word never occurs in the Bible, so what word/words in those verses leads you to think of "rapture"? What verse shows disciples asking Jesus about ANY "raptured ones"? Since the word doesn't occur in Scripture, it seems this is just more conjecture. This is a description of the Second Advent when all the living believers will be caught up to the sky and receive their changed (resurrection) bodies. 1 Thess 4:13-17 Conjecture. Every saved person in history will be at the Bema. It will occur AFTER all have received their resurrection bodies. Think about this bit of logic. Just like in the military, ribbons and awards are placed on the UNIFORM. Why would there be any difference at the Bema?

Not true. Our difference is that I don't use conjecture. You called 1 Cor 15:23 a "general statement". That seems to be an excuse to not take it straight up literally. Well, the verse is a straight up statement about resurrection. There is no room for finding ways to "get around" it. I'm only pointing out how much you presume, etc. Actually, no, there's not such a thing. When we have straight forward verses on the resurrection that make clear there is only 1 resurrection which will be "when He comes" speculation, conjecture and inference all go out the window. I would need to see the context. I never said that was. But given all who are there, the scene is obviously in heaven. And since the Tribulation isn't over at that point, there has been no resurrection yet. So that shows that the 144K have died, most likely by martyrdom. ALL dead saved people are in heaven NOW. And none of them have been resurrected yet. Because there are NO verses describing such an event. Every dead saint is in heaven. Why would anyone need to speculate as to how they got there. Jesus even told us how the poor man Lazarus went to Paradise; escorted by angels who carried him. That is not a rapture. OK, I need context for what you are referring to. Please show me where they were "taken". Lazarus was taken to paradise by angels. That was no rapture. Oh, it is very selective. When verses/passages are NOT clear, plain language, I'm very skeptical about what people say about them. You mean there's some kind of "equal value" beyond "the verses" to understand?? What verses haven't I seen yet? I've already asked for any verses that describe a trip to heaven in resurrection bodies. And I have acknowledged that the souls of ALL believers go to heaven at death, but the Bible does not call or describe that as a rapture.

Mistakes are different than sins. Eph 2:8 states the full truth, "we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH" (in the finished work of Jesus Christ). Is there a verse that says this? 1 John 1:9 tells believers that IF we confess our sins, He will forgive us and cleanse us. To repent and "turn from it" falls under the category of human effort. Another word for it is lifestyle. Lifestyle won't save anyone. Is there a verse that says this? That would suggest that ultimately there are no more sins to turn from. Does the Bible teach sinless perfection? If so, what verse(s) says this? This indicates that one's lifestyle is the determining factor in going to heaven. Jesus said in plain words in John 5:24 that "whoever believes" (present tense) has (present tense) eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 He said, "I give them (believers) eternal life (when they believe, per Jn 5:24) and they shall never perish". It seems your claims are contrary to Jesus' own words. Jesus already told us the truth. As I've shown you from the Bible. If you think it is Jesus telling you what you have posted, you might really need to figure out just WHO it is that is telling you all these things. 1 John 5:19 - We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. Rev 12:9 - The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Absolutely context is very important. Prior to v.47 Jesus said 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Prior to that Jesus said, in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Prior to that Jesus said in John 3:15,16 15 - that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It seems that what is really presumptuous is making claims that the Bible doesn't make. There is zero evidence for any kind of rapture. Every one of these "too many passages" requires conjecture. There are no straight ward verses in plain language. Every saved person (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes". Straightforward and plain language. No mention of a rapture to heaven. Remember what occurs WHEN the saints from heaven who will be accompanying Christ back to earth; wedding supper. The only logical placement of the Bema is AFTER the defeat at Armageddon and the wedding supper. Believers will be evaluated for "whatever they have done while in their bodies, whether GOOD or BAD" per 2 Cor 5:10. So abiding in Christ prepares the believer for reward at the Bema. Rewards have nothing to do with resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear; all believers will be resurrected at the same event: "when He comes". Reward will be issued at the Bema.