FreeGrace

Neither will I. This is one very loooooooong post!!!!!! The same can be said of your view. The problem is that your view still doesn't show a rapture to heaven. You have to make huge assumptions. And I have proven from a number of verses that there will be just a (singular) resurrection. And NO resurrection verse includes any description of Jesus taking these freshly resurrected believers to heaven. So it isn't going to happen. That would be hard to imagine, not seeing the condition of today's church. What a mess. Good question! The SAME WAY Lazarus got to Abraham's bosom; angel escort in Luke 16. Where do you think the sou/spirit of believers go after death? Just stay in the stinking rotting body?? There is NO reason from Scripture to think there will be a trip to heaven in a resurrection body, esp since the Bible plainly states that there will be a singular resurrection when Jesus returns to earth after the Tribulation. Then, all believers will be either reigning with the King, or serving Him, on earth. No believer will be in heaven during the Millennium. That is, unless they can be, but God hasn't disclosed that detail yet. Jesus spoke of 2 Jews who died and both went to Hades, Laz to Paradise, which Jesus called "abraham's bosom" and the rich man to "torments". The prophet Samuel had died, when Saul went to a witch to talk to Samuel. The Bible SAYS that Samuel spoke to Saul and vice versa. Doesn't say Saul "only thought he was talking to Samuel". So we know that when people die, their souls/spirits leave the body. James 2:26. After the resurrection of Jesus, He took all the saints in Paradise (abraham's bosom) to heaven with him. This was no resurrection with glorified bodies. And Rev 6 speaks of souls under the altar singing and talking. And the scene is in heaven. Not difficult to figure out. Souls in heaven. Not glorified bodies. Rev 19a speaks of the souls in heaven (all dead saints) preparing for the wedding supper and 19b describes these souls preparing to leave heaven with Jesus back to earth. Because that will NEVER happen!! Every believer will receive their resurrection body when Jesus returns. 1 Thess 4:13-17 covers the event and includes those still alive. Nope. No clear verse to support that. And there are a number of verses that specifically refer to the resurrection as singular. None of this is about any resurrection or rapture. So what's the point? When Christ returns, some believers will receive reward, and others won't. But ALL will receive their glorified immortal bodies. That is what 1 Clr 15:23 says. So I reject any idea that includes multiple resurrections or a rapture trip to heaven. Simply by DYING and their souls/spirits going to heaven. Are you not familiar with how Paul distinguished between physical life and death? 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body (alive on planet earth) we are away from the Lord (not in heaven). v.8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body (dead) and at home with the Lord (in heaven). I just told you. They DIED and went to heaven. Like EVERY OTHER saint who has died. Do you have any family members who were saved and have died? Where are they now? Just like EVERY believer who died gets there. Based on Luke 16, by angel escort. Of course there are people in heaven. When people DIE, their souls/spirits go to heaven. 2 Cor 5:6,8 describes this. Of course my answers are "good". 👍 I use "repent" in the literal sense; to change the mind. Of course that is His plan. In FACT, all believers were PREDESTINED to be "in the image of Christ", per Rom 8:29. But that has nothing to do with rapture. I never said He didn't intend that. But that is irrelevant to any discussion of a rapture. OK, time to explain what God meant by "in OUR image". I'll get some popcorn. OK. Where or when will you provide the evidence? Wouldn't you object? There is no limit on any of this because none of this will occur. There will be just one resurrection of believers. No trip to heaven. I have shown clear verses on this. You keep wanting to fudge the truth. Those under the altar do not have resurrection bodies. They simply died and are in heaven, like every other dead saint. I am not really interested in what anyone claims about things that may be symbolic, or metaphors, or figures of speech. Only the writer knows what he was thinking. Neither you or I do, so I don't care because it doesn't matter. What matters is what the Bible says compared to what humans say. You have not been able to support any of your claims with plainly words verses. I have. I'm very aware of that fact. It shows that though many believed in Him, not that many became followers of Him. Also, Jesus performed His miracles all over Israel, and quite a number of the healings were to people that didn't live IN Jerusalem, so could explain the low number IN Jersusalem. Then your argument is with the Bible and Paul's writing. 1 Cor 15:23 SAYS one resurrection which will be at the Second Advent. Plainly. Totally aware of this. Why do you think or assume I don't have a grasp? It does. But it doesn't support your claims.

You're quite funny. But go ahead and continue to think that God causes people to believe. But it isn't true nor biblical. God, in His sovereignty, created a plan for salvation that involves freedom of choice, which really must grate on Calvinists. But that's God's plan, whether Calvinists like it or not. And 1 Cor 1:21 proves that salvation is not by election, or Paul would have worded it quite differently. How come you haven't addressed any of the verses I quote, much less explain how my use of the verses is in error?

Why do you say "there is hope"? Certainly NOT to everyone in humanity, according to your theology. For the majority there NEVER has been any hope. So how can you say "there is hope" when what your theology views as "the non-elect" there is no such thing? For them there is only an eternity in the LOF. Because God passed over them, for no apparent reason. Just really BAD DUMB LUCK. Wow. Please don't try to evangelize. All you'll do is lead people astray. What verse in the Bible tells people to "pray and ask God to save you. Believe that He can...". That is clearly not the gospel. It's gobbledy gook. Not even close to Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". Do you see the difference? If not, just wow. You have demonstrated the problem with Calvinism. No thinking of faith in Christ as an issue in salvation. Your proposed "presentation" leaves out the VERY mention of faith in Christ for salvation. You think praying for God to save you will work?? What about those unbelievers who are not "future elects", but "eternal non-elects"? Are you being truthful to them? Of course you cannot know who, even in your theological system who is and who isn't "one of the elect". So how do you avoid LYING when you don't even know who has been "chosen" or not? In the Greek, "repent" means to change the mind. That's what everyone does when they make a change in their thinking. Jews viewed Jesus as a blasphemous human, and not Deity. They had to change their mind about that. They had to change their mind about the FACT that He is the Messiah.

Yes, yes, of course God always knew His plan. To be biblically clear, switch the word "the elect" for "those who believe in Him".

Why include "eternal" to 'annihilation', because annihilation has an end point. When the entity ceases to exist, there is no more. Poof! So what does "eternal" have to do with annihilation? If something is eternal, that means the entity exists forever. The Bible is clear that condemnation will exist forever. Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This verse is the BEST verse to refute 'annihilationism'. We note that the devil will be cast into the LOF after the Millinnial Reign of Christ. He will JOIN the 'beast and false prophet' two human beings, who were cast into the LOF 1,000 years BEFORE. That's a lot of suffering, don'tcha think? The verse ends with this: They (beast, false prophet, the devil) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This isn't even about "smoke of their torment". It is clearly ABOUT their TORMENT. So, how long will this TORMENT be? The Bible SAYS: day and night for ever and ever. Hm. How long will that be? Well, the words "day and night" refer to a 24 hour day. A specific time frame. But there's more: for ever and ever. So, how long is that? Well, never ending is what it means. Never stopping. So the torment for those cast into the LOF will never end. Of course, those with their own agenda, driven by their own bias, will argue "day and night, for ever and ever" that "day and night for ever and ever" simply cannot mean never ending. And then comes out the list of verses that don't actually relate to Rev 20:10 at all. They just don't want to face reality here. But there's another huge flaw in the idea of annihilation. It aligns pretty well with what atheists believe. For them, at death, they believe that they will no longer exist. That means no conscienceness, no nothing. But we KNOW from Scripture that there is a holding cell for unblelievers, called Hades, where all unbelievers go after death, awaiting the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20:11-15. To cease to exist means to be free of ALL senses. So there can be NO sense of eternal condemnation, yet the Bible teaches that there will be a sense of eternal condemnation. Satan wants peope to believe that there are no consequences for behavior, and at death, there is no more. That means no more suffering, no more torment, no more anything. The Bible clearly doesn't teach any of that nonsense. No, God didn't breathe O2 into Adam's body. He placed the soul/spirit into the physiological body of Adam, and then and ONLY THEN did Adam "become a living being" human being. Gen 2:7 So you don't believe Adam is in heaven right now, and won't receive a resurrection body when ALL believers will receive theirs? So then, when you die, and therefore cease to exist, you won't receive a glorified immortal resurrection body, which is just like the one Jesus had when He resurrected. Your teaching is FAR from the Bible.

Please don't tell anyone, but I am superman. phony twisting is hardly "poetic". And "man-centered" is just another cheap shot, since everything I have claimed is backed up with plain language verses. But you keep ignoring those verses and just keep moving on to more and more Calvinist talking points. So I have a plan. After I finish this post. This proves that you fail to understand God's grace, and what free will even is. Pay attention: It is God's choice to save those who believe. If you disagree prove it's wrong by quoting a verse that God is the cause of man's believing. Actually, because it is God who OFFERS the two choices, your idea is all wet. And again, proving that you don't really understand God's plan at all. So, God offers man what fate he will choose. Why would that bother you? You know very well that there are NO verses that teach that God causes people to believe. Since it is His plan, you couldn't be more confused, and WRONG. He gives man a choice. And that really seems to bother Calvinists. As if Sovereign God isn't really isn't able to do that. FACT: God is able to do whatever He wants. And His plan is to give mankind a choice: believe that He exists and believe that He will save believers from the LOF. Your fantasies are fantastic. Wow. The Bible says so, and you show this kind of disrespect??? The Bible says so in plain language. Where have you been? Biblically correct. So, why will so many people be cast into the LOF? Can you explain it from the Bible? Well, there you go again. More nonsense fantasies. It IS enough, though you are unable to comprehend it. There is nothing more to do. All man can do is receive the free gift. Believe and receive. But no, to a Calvinist, God had to cause the idiot unregenerate to believe by forcing regeneration on him/her so he/she would believe. That is sheer puppetry. See there? You're WRONG again. By paying the full sin debt, no one has any excuse for not receiving the free gift of eternal life. That unbeliever consigned themself to the LOF. God allows people to choose where they want to go after death. That would only be your very faulty thinking. Because of what Christ did, no one has any excuse for going to the LOF. They will have sent themself there. What is blasphemy is all your very unbiblical nonsense. Yes, you are spewing what you believe, and I have corrected all the errors. Whether you have ears and eyes that are open to see your errors is another thing. Well, I don't think the plan that I mentioned at the beginning of this post will work. You've made it crystal clear from all you've fantasized about that you really aren't able to understand God's Word. Your mind is full of Calvinist talking points that you've been led to believe is "the truth". No, it's really just what "doctrines of demons" refers to, per 1 Tim 4:1. Satan delights in deceiving the "whole world" and that includes believers. You are as vulnerable as anyone, including me. But in spite of all the repeating I've done, you STILL show no capacity to follow and understand. You're just too steeped in the folly of your theology. You have shown you can't even grasp the simplest of concepts. That is why such debates will never be resolved this side of eternity, whether by Calvinists or Arminians. Both are blinded by their theologies, so truth cannot enter. What a sad state of affairs.

No need to shout. From the beginning, when humans are in the context, means from the beginning of humanity. So, other than the shouting, what is the point here?

Well, I gave you lots of points to address. Please don't ignore the bulk of my previous post. I didn't insert anything. The phrase "to be holy and blameless" is clearly about service and not about salvation. That is the stated purpose of God's choosing in eph 1:4. And I proved from v.19 that "us" refers to believers. So Eph 1:4 CANNOT be about God choosing to salvation, because it is believers that "God chose". And He chose believers to be holy an blameless. Is that NOT lifestyle? Of course it is. Just just won't admit that the verse is about service. Maybe you'd prefer the word "lifestyle". It is clearly not about salvation, since by definition, believers are already saved. Otherwise, the verse would say, "God chose believers . . . to be saved". The verse doesn't say that. It is about lifestyle that God has chosen believers for. This is just a twisted mess and has no relevance to my comments about Eph 1:4. I'm sorry that you resist the claim that God chose all believers for service. How weird, esp since the Bema (Judgment Seat of Christ, per 2 Cor 5:10) is ALL ABOUT being rewarded for service. Otherwise called lifestyle, faithfulness, obedience. I'm tired of repeating myself re: this verse. Why stop at the word "salvation" when the WHOLE POINT of the verse FOLLOWS the word? The verse is about the METHOD of salvation, or HOW someone is saved. God chose the METHOD. It's His plan, after all, don'tcha know. The method is "THROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT AND (EVEN) BELIEF IN THE TRUTH"> So you just can't escape the FACT that salvation is always linked to belief/faith. Never election. Where in the world do you get such nonsense?? I never said anything of the sort. It seems your imagination has gone hog wild. "no choice"?? Are you kidding? The entire plan of God is from HIM. Who else? His plan, His execution of the plan. What do you think of 1 Cor 1:21, that says in part, "God was pleased . . . to save those who believe"? This verse refutes your doctrine of election. If your doctrine were true, Paul would have written, "God was pleased . . . to save those He chose". Doesn't that sound more like what you believe anyway? Let's just see what you understand from Hebrews. 3:19 - So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief. Please answer who the "they" were, and what were they "unable to enter" due to unbelief. Thanks. Does this verse SAY that God causes certain men to believe? No. How about 6:44? “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. So, who does the Father "draw"? The very next verse actually TELLS us. v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. There it is in black and white, and some Kodachrome. Blue words show that everyone has been taught by God. This refers to Rom 1:19,20. Red words refer to those who "listened and learned" from the Father. Purple words are the learners who "come to Me". Are you aware that paying attention is a choice? Not all students pay attention, or listen and learn. Those who have will "come to Me", says Jesus. Again, we see free will at work. Believing is a choice, just as refusing to believe is a choice. Such phony nonsense. First, the red words are true of everyone in humanity, so why even bother saying all that stuff. Everyone is born spiritually dead and corrupt. But then you add a great big phony TWIST on it by thinking that non-Calvinists think they are giving God "permission" to save them. Tricky work, that is. And as phony as HELL. You can just knock that off. You really lose credibility when do go LOW like that. I know of no one who thinks like that. But obviously Calvinists do, or you wouldn't have added that kind of pejorative nonsense, as if to "expose" what non-Calvinists really think. So, enough of your tricks and deceit. Deal with what I SAY, and not what your fantasy thinks I believe. When God makes a promise, and I "take His Word" (trust/believe) in receiving eternal life and salvation, I am submitting to His authority. How you can't see that is really sad. I AM believing what He says. I'm not giving your so-called "permission" to do anything. I AM taking His Word for TRUTH and trusting Him AS TRUTH. All your theology does is lower God to that of a puppeteer, pulling strings to get some of the puppets to do things. Well, just more rubbish coming from all your fantasies of what non-Calvinists must think and claim. No one thinks like that, so where does your imagination come up with such nonsense? From all you've posted so far, it would seem you have no awareness of what Paul wrote: 2 Tim 3:15 - and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. This verse blows Calvinism right out of the water. It is believing the Holy Scriptures that makes one WISE for salvation, which is through faith in Christ. Not a thing about election here. Wisdom comes from God's Word, and believing God's Word as true. Could you please explain what this "eternal difference" may be? Salvation is obviously AFTER believing because of Eph 2:8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God I don't think that Calvinists even understand what the words "through faith" even mean. Do you? If you did, you wouldn't be a Calvinist any longer. Salvation is through faith. That means the faith precedes the salvation. Obviously. But your bias and talking points won't let the truth in.

Why are you shouting? The verse clearly and obviously about the METHOD of salvation, iow, HOW one is saved, which is "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth". It ALWAYS goes back to faith as the means of salvation. "belief in the truth". And, this one sentence quote is all you're going to address from my post?? No, He didn't "chose all who would be in Christ". He KNEW those who would believe. Please state truth, and not the Calvinist twist. Certainly God has always known who would believe, and He NEVER caused anyone to believe. That is a blatant false claim. And you know there are no verses that say what Calvinism claims. The verse teaches that God chose salvation to be "through sanctification by the Spirit and (even) belief in the truth". The verse doesn't say God chose who would believe, which is the REAL bottom line of Calvinism. They are positionally sanctified (holy) and justified through faith. But Calvinism, if logically followed, REALLY believes that justification comes through election. Even though there are NO verses that say that. When the Berean verification method is followed, Calvinism is revealed to contain untrue doctrines. I was hoping you would tackle at least some of the points in my previous post. But then, you'd be converted from Calvinism to being a Biblicist. 😉

I always pray for understanding. And I'll add you to my list. 👍 Where does this "plain teaching" come from? If Scripture cannot use plain words, why trust any other source? What do you mean that "now you receive that the plain teaching that I cannot agree with". From whom do you "receive" this "plain teaching"? All of my posts are simply responses to your posts. No, that is not the case. I don't use tricks or tactics. I simply respond to comments. I never disagreed with 2 Tim 2:12. Poor conclusion. Of course I care about what Jesus cares about. And that is TRUTH. Have you really thought about the words "rules the nations with an iron rod"? Doesn't sound much like gentleness and kindness. More like very strict rules/etc. And there is a very clear reason. When the King returns and resurrects all believers, the only mortals left from the Trib will be unbelievers. And not just every day average unbelievers. But the hardcore unbelievers who REFUSED to repent (Rev 16:9,11) during the pouring out of God's wrath. And all of them have taken the mark of the beast, which shows that their negative volition will not change. iow, The King will be ruling over an extremely hostile and angry mob. Every one of them. And this explains WHY there will be a world wide rebellion at the end of the Millennium. So God sends fire from heaven and FRIES the whole lot of them. Rev 20. Right! There it is: "as pottery are broken in pieces". This ain't no picnic during the Millennium. Growing up, I had a pretty pleasant and peaceful notion of life during the Millennium. Having finally read the Bible, I have repented of those notions. Well, there's where we disagree. For me, the "man-child" is the God-man. I will not repent of that. Without plain language that supports this claim, and plus the FACT of the 4 verses that specifically speak of resurrection in the singular, I do not see any kind of rapture in Rev 14. I see this as an opinion. No evidence from Scripture. And refuting Scripture as well. Of course they are. But the very clear verses that refute any notion of multiple resurrections or raptures to heaven prove that your claims are untrue. I do believe eternal rewards will be to "reign with Christ" per 2 Tim 2:12 or "share in Christ's glory" per Rom 8:17b. But they aren't the "man-child". Since the Bema will reward ALL faithful believers from every generation from Adam forward, of course non trib martyrs will reign with Christ. Can you prove this from Scripture? I see no effective difference. Kinda like a difference without a distinction. I know that all believers in history will be at the Bema, to be evaluated by the King. Sure you have. THE king Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ. The description is obvious. I don't have an "alternate" interpretation. I have the obvious understanding. How many believers/scholars/etc believe as you do about this "corporate" man-child/ I've been a believer for over 69 years, and I've never heard what you believe. Have any books been written about this that agree with you? Not "so many times", but monthly. 😁 My understanding of the God-man changes nothing and puts no limits on Christ. This refers to faithful believers being rewarded. This doesn't directly prove who the "man-child" is. I've known fully about eternal rewards for a very long time. But how many believers still don't understand anything or much about rewards. When did I say this "in essence"? I don't even understand what it means. Of course. You act as though I don't believe in eternal rewards. 😭 I'm not looking to gain any weight! It is the God-man who will reward His faithful servants. 2 Cor 5:10 explains it all. Yes, I have that. There will be eternal rewards. So far, none of the verses you quoted show that the "man-child" are rewarded servants. Yes, the faithful servants will be rewarded in eternity. You call this "plain teaching"? No, I call it opinion. The description of the 'man-child' describes the Lord Jesus, not people. It is in the singular, but you seem to play loose with language. Are you aware that of 32 English translations on biblehub.com only ONE translation, the American Standard, uses "man-child" in Rev 12:5. All the others use "male child" or similar. So I see no reason to accept your 'interpretation'. No one else does. Doesn't matter. All faithful believers will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema) per 2 Cor 5:10. Regardless of whether OT or NT. I FULLY agree that faithful believers will be rewarded. But there is no "man-child" in Rev 12:5. There is a male child, Jesus. What "clue" is there to indicate this (singular) woman is a collective? I'm into plain language. I've already addressed this. The "woman" is Israel, the nation. Jesus was born a Jew. Woman refers to the nation, not individuals. The Jews have been persecuted from their origin. That's pretty obvious to me. There are overcomers in every generation. But the male child came out of Israel. All unbelief is personal, therefore "private". What is the point? That is the natural understanding of the text. I'm still curious as to whether your viewes have been confined to any book. The text doesn't say "immediately" so why do you? Bingo. I still believe the male child is Jesus Christ. Jesus has been giving eternal life to EVERY believer from Adam forward. v.23 is specifically about the Second Advent. Believers from Adam forward were given eternal life. I'm not sure what is meant by "new humanity". Believers are a new creation, per 2 Cor 5:17. Maybe you are referring to all resurrected believers are a new humanity because all will have glorified immortal bodies, like Jesus' resurrection body. I see "male child" in Rev 125, which clearly refers to Jesus as the God-man. Christ was triumphantly vindicated at His resurrection. Of course I am well aware of that. But none of the verses you're pulling together support your view. That is exactly my point. "Cut straight the word of God". That means plain and clear language. Could you point out the book(s) that lay out your view? And how many scholars/Bible teachers/etc believe as you do? Of course I have. And I learned from the Bereans, per Acts 17:11, to "search the Scriptures daily to see if what whoever says is true. That requires plain language. Not metaphors, figures of speech, etc. Since I already am fully aware of faithful believers from all generations being rewarded at the Bema, I don't need to see them in "the male child" who will rule the nations with a rod of iron. I do need to see that Jesus Christ is the King of kings, who rules the nations with that rod of iron. I strongly disagree. The cause of the tribulation is the wickedness of mankind, coming to a head. And satan will be indwelling the ruler of the world. This means maximum evil and wickedness. That's the cause. I don't think your eyes are open. Just in this country we've seen a HUGE influx of evil over the years. Satan won't be limited until AFTER the Tribulation when Jesus returns and satan is locked in the abyss for 1,000 years, only to be released then, when he gathers the nations all together for the battle of Gog and Magog to destroy the King on His throne. At that time, he will be cast into the LOF, to be tormented day and night, for ever along with the beast and false prophet, who have been there already for 1,000 years. And after the GWT judgment, ALL unbelievers will be cast into the LOF as well. All of them to be tormented day and night, for ever and ever. There is no "rapture to heaven". No verse says so. Not in ANY of the resurrection verses/texts. It doesn't occur. There is no rapture to heaven in the Bible. All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent and stay on earth to reign with Christ or serve Him.

Without question! Again, without question. But this in no way supports the claim that God elects to salvation. Yes, it is. And saving faith is placing one's full trust in what Christ did on the cross. It's not some mystical magical kind of faith that is mechanically different from any other trust in any other thing or person. Seems Calvinists think it is. It isn't. At its core, it is simply trusting the promise of eternal life made by Jesus Christ. May I suggest that you might be confused. To be justified is to be saved, born again. They are the SAME THING. But Calvinists have this "order of things" that are not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that EVEN the Gentiles had "the law written on their hearts" in Rom 2:14,15. Do you understand what that means? It means God has given a conscience to everyone, so that everyone is able to discern right from wrong. So all wrong choices are free choices, just as all right choices are free choices. God doesn't pull strings on puppets, as Calvinism's doctrine of election indicates. Here's the truth. I'm clearly NOT mocking God. Calvinism does by its unbiblical doctrines, like election to salvation, which is nothing more or less than God pulling the strings of certain (elected) puppets. You can deny this analogy, but it FITS perfectly. Denial will get you nowhere. Without question. Do you honestly think that there are people who think they helped God come up with His plan of saving mankind? Do you really know some like that? God's plan is clearly communicated in 1 Cor 1:21: "God was pleased . . . to save those who believe". No election involved. So, once again I will ask you to show me ANY verse that indicates that "God causes the elect to come to saving faith". If you can't come up with just 1 verse that in plain language says this, you have failed to defend your theology. It is Calvinism that has it totally backward. Throughout Romans 3 and 4 we read that justification is based on FAITH, and never on election. If your theology were correct, salvation WOULD BE based on election. Paul wrote that on the basis of FAITH God CREDITS or IMPUTES righteousness to the believer. Gen 15:6, Rom 3:28, 4:3,9,11,12,1316,22,24. These verses SAY that God credits righteousness to those who believe. iow, believe and THEN righteousness is credited or imputed to the believer. So I don't have anything backward. Calvinism does. To correct another error of yours, I NEVER said that God "can't save you until you have saving faith", but your very DULL ears have a hearing problem, common among the Calvinists. They don't hear straight, which is why it is so hard to get them to even understand truth. God's plan is to save ONLY those who believe, which is what 1 Cor 1:21 says plainly. So quit accusing me of FALSE claims. Your accusations are what is FALSE. And responding to God's promise is hardly making me the author/etc of my faith. That is just a bunch of baloney. Titus 2:11 says that grace offers salvation to all, meaning obviously everyone. But Calvinism ignores the truth in favor of their errors. Do you realize how one receives the gift of eternal life? I'll bet not. So I'll let the Bible speak and answer the question. John 3:15 - that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. This proves that the gift is possessed WHEN a person trusts in Christ's work on the cross. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 Tim1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. A perfect summary in this long list of how to receive eternal life. Through faith. And you CAN'T even quote 1 verse that says our salvation/eternal life is on the basis of election, even though that is what you believe. Well, the Bible says differently than what you believe. Are you kidding? When a swimmer gets a severe stomach cramp in deep water and begins to drown, and a lifeguard throws out a lifeline to the drowning swimmer and then pulls the swimmer in, which saves his life, do you honestly believe that the swimmer takes credit for grabbing the lifeline and saving himself? He would be laughed off the stage. And rightly so. No one thinks like a Calvinist, except other Calvinists. I guess you probably are thinking of HOW to change this scenario that supports your theology. But no dice. What I have presented is real life. Believing God's promise is literally taking Him at His Word. That is what glorifies Him, when His creatures trust Him. Calvinism seems to have no idea what that is all about. They think puppetry but deny it when it is pointed out to them. Because Calvinism either has a mental block about freedom of choice (free will) or they actually hate the idea. Doesn't matter to me which way you or other Calvinists think, it's all still wrong. Here's another thought provoking point. Calvinist election to salvation makes faith or believing a by product of regeneration. It would also make righteousness a by product of that same regeneration. When NEITHER are true. Both are by faith. One more point to munch on. Saving faith is man's response to God's love and grace rather an merely a by product of election.

I just couldn't resist another go round on what you said here. 😊 Amazing how close someone can be to truth yet be in strong opposition to it at the same time. Absolutely both Jeremiah and Isaiah used the words "tohu wabohu" FOR EFFECT!! They were warning their people of coming disaster, as in the land becoming an uninhabitable wasteland. The VERY SAME TWO WORDS that Moses used in Gen 1:2 after writing "but the earth became . . .". Moses was simply describing the state of the earth at a point later in time from v.1 so Jeremiah, FOR EFFECT, quoted what Moses wrote in Gen 1:2 to SCARE his people of the coming disaster. Unfortunately, the majority of English translators FAILED to grasp this "effect" that Jeremiah used in his warning. They just simply translated the 2 Hebrew words the same lame way translators did with Gen 1:2. But English translators had no such bias when translating Isa 34:11 New International Version The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation. New Living Translation It will be haunted by the desert owl and the screech owl, the great owl and the raven. For God will measure that land carefully; he will measure it for chaos and destruction. Berean Standard Bible The desert owl and screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and raven will dwell in it. The LORD will stretch out over Edom a measuring line of chaos and a plumb line of destruction. King James Bible But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. Christian Standard Bible Eagle owls and herons will possess it, and long-eared owls and ravens will dwell there. The LORD will stretch out a measuring line and a plumb line over her for her destruction and chaos. Holman Christian Standard Bible The desert owl and the screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and the raven will dwell there. The LORD will stretch out a measuring line and a plumb line over her for her destruction and chaos. Contemporary English Version Owls, hawks, and wild animals will make it their home. God will leave it in ruins, merely a pile of rocks. Good News Translation Owls and ravens will take over the land. The LORD will make it a barren waste again, as it was before the creation. As in before creation of mankind. Majority Standard Bible The desert owl and screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and raven will dwell in it. The LORD will stretch out over Edom a measuring line of chaos and a plumb line of destruction. NET Bible Owls and wild animals will live there, all kinds of wild birds will settle in it. The LORD will stretch out over her the measuring line of ruin and the plumb line of destruction.

Those with open eyes and ears and use them see the truth. You've been shown. You bet he was! He was warning the people of what was coming and he described it as TOTAL DESTRUCTION, which is obvious in Jer 4. I wish you would read it. There is no way Jeremiah would use words that describe total destruction in a text about creation. How come you don't understand that? It is you that seem to be unable to grasp what is so simple to understand. Yes, the first sentence is about that. However, the next sentence really says, "but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland . . ." Clearly showing an unknown time gap between creation and v.2. You're just losing all credibility here by such a silly statement. My FACTS come from the writing of Moses, about 1400 BC, Isaiah about 700 BC and Jeremiah about 600 BC. I'm using the words THEY wrote. That's why I don't bother with ANY English translations, except to note some of them were honest enough to translate "tohu wabohu" correctly in Gen 1:2. The majority weren't honest or smart enough to know. I'm so tired of all your fantasies about some mythical land that never existed. That is what the Bible says, which is why I say it. Original creation was perfect, and nothing like the fantasy you imagine. I've repeatedly corrected YOUR error about that. But is seems you aren't teachable on that point. Ex 20:11 uses the Hebrew word "asah" for "make", not create. Maybe word meanings have no meaning for you, but they do in Genesis. In Gen 1:1 "created" is 'bara'. In Ex 20:11 the word is 'made', because the Hebrew is 'asah', unlike Gen 1:1. You mean Mark 10:6? Jesus was speaking of the beginning of the human race. Not the universe. Science acknowledges that the earth is much older than 6,000 years, so you comment here is quite bogus. No, silly. The earth was damaged and God didn't tell us by what or whom. Why is that concept so hard for you to accept, other than your extreme bias regarding an old earth? Just your own biased opinion. Why do you feel the need to ask such asinine questions? We know from Psa 33:6,9 that God is powerful enough to simply speak things into existence, including the universe. Maybe you just don't believe that, and really do think that He couldn't do it all in one moment, so He "assembled" (built/made) the earth in steps or stages or by processes. Well, I reject all that. He simply spoke everything into existence immediately. But then, for unexplained reasons, the earth BECAME an uninhabitable wasteland. It's just too bad that you seem mad that God wouldn't tell you what happened, but He didn't. So just let it go. Yawn. Why don't you leave all the AD dates and join me in 1400 BC, 700 BC and 600 BC to understand what Moses meant by "tohu wabohu"? Well, that's quite naive. There are many who believe what I believe, because of the same FACTS that I've been presenting. Why would I have to speak to Moses? What kind of inane question is that? But I have read what he wrote, and compared it to what Jeremiah and Isaiah wrote when using the VERY SAME TWO WORDS that Moses used, and there IS context with Jer and Isaiah. You're the one blaming God for not giving you the juicy details of how and why the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland. So you reject it just because you weren't given what you seem to DEMAND what to be given. No, you'll stick with poorly translated English translations. Not me.

Could you cite the verses that SAY election is to salvation. Do you know why he said that? Many people are aware that the Bible does not teach election to salvation. He was just trying to defend what he believed. Afraid? Really? When the "doctrine" is closely examined, it reveals a theology of puppetry. iow, God unconditionally chooses from among all of humanity He wants to save, and then regenerates them (strings the puppets) so that they will believe the Gospel. I know that sounds harsh, but that is exactly what that doctrine is about. Man has no say at all in the matter, even though the Bible is extremely clear that salvation is THROUGH FAITH (Eph 2:8) and that man believes from the heart (Rom 10:10). Just as REFUSING to believe the gospel is a choice, so is the other option; to believe. In my many years on various forums, Calvinists are quite closed minded about anything that challenged their doctrines. I'm not being mean, but honest. If one really does think through that doctrine, the result really is puppetry. Oh, yeah, and what about all those non-chosen types? How great is that? In fact, the doctrine of election to salvation would GIVE everyone in hell the legitimate EXCUSE for being where they are: God simply didn't choose them, but did choose other SINNERS. All without any conditions. iow, His choice is arbitrary. Anyone can "be sure" or "certain" of any untrue idea or doctrine. Your certainty doesn't make it true, no matter how long you believe it to be true, or how hard you try to defend it. But the bottom line is that there are no verses that in plain language teach that God chooses anyone for salvation apart unconditionally. What is clear from the Bible is that salvation and eternal life are THROUGH faith, meaning the FAITH or belief comes BEFORE salvation/eternal life.

Excepe for one small teeny tiny thing. You have NO proof or evidence of your opinion. Faithful believers, of course. But NOT some "corporate man-child". Since you have no evidence or proof of what you claim, I'm not interested in changing my opinion, which MORE ACCURATELY fits Jesus Christ as the "man-child". You weren't in John's mind when he wrote Revelation. So you don't have 'inside information' on what he wrote about. Neither was I. So I don't spend time in texts that are full of metaphors, figures of speech, etc. We have no idea what they refer to. And it doesn't matter. We do have enough very clear verses to fully understand the order of things during end times.

Huh? Your statement doesn't make sense. What is this "age" that is before the eternal age? Don't you know that during the Millennial reign of Christ, ALL believers will have their resurrection bodies, which are ETERNAL. I'll do you one better. By the resurrection event at the return of Christ, there will be NO immaturity in any of God's children. All will be in their resurrection bodies, glorified and immortal. Why do you think that glorified believers will continue to grow spiritually when they aren't in their corrupt physical bodies any more? More made up stuff. Where do you get resurrected believers during the Millennial reign being "disciplined"?? And now you contradict yourself. What does this mean? At the resurrection, when all believers receive their glorified immortal bodies, just like Jesus'. At that time, no one will continue to "mature". They will have reached unto "the image of His Son". Rom 8:29 A promise of rich reward to faithful believers during their life on earth. I reject that opinion outright. And you have zero evidence for your guesswork. At the Second Advent, ALL believers receive their glorified immortal bodies and won't need to be disciplined. That ends at the Bema, which is when Christ returns to earth. So during the Millennium, ALL believers will either reign with Christ or serve Him. Because it is not a biblical word, it's more liable to confuse than instruct. Yes I have. But you don't read my posts, as you indicated above. The word is not in the Bible, like the word "sanctification" or "spiritual growth" or "spiritual maturity" are. And so the use of it will only confuse lots of people. Yeah, there you go! Confuse, obfuscate, and smokescreen.

I'm beginning to wonder what you really do know about. Some what you claim is pretty far out. So the only way to determine what you know is to state some facts. Excuse me? What's this about "temporarily suffering loss"? Please use Scripture when claiming what you think Scripture says. So I'm supposed to guess about some specific verses you are thinking about, and give you my opinion? I have no idea what you are even talking about. We strongly disagree about the "woman" "man-child" are, so why should I bother when we're not even in the same book, much less the same page? So you are quite willing to have some plural pronouns refer to "the man-child", which is a singular term. We just keep moving farther and farther apart. Actually reading my posts would help a lot.

I only do it when it FITS. Except I don't have to "interpret" since I have verses that are straightforward and in plain language. What do you have? Rev 14, which is anything plain language. It's all symbolic, metaphors and figures of speech. Thanks for making my point. He rules the nations. Don't forget it. Yes, He will have helpers, but He is THE king. No it's not. You are only "reading it into" your Bible. So now you flip way back to ch 1 in your attempt to salvage your pot. To be "Ruler of the kings of the earth" easily means He will rule over all the nations, who will have their own kings. Yes, thank you for making my points. Sure do. Paul taught about eternal rewards through endurance. There is NO "corporate" man-child. Hardly. You haven't and can't prove your claim (case) about this so-called "corporate" man-child. Of course it's about faithful believers. But they aren't called a "man-child". So now we have a "corporate" woman as well as a "corporate man-child". Nope. If you can't see the obvious reference to Israel producing the Messiah, I think there's not much hope for you to understand Scripture. This is very figurative language and anyone can claim it means whatever they NEED it to mean to support their own "private interpretation". I'm not that interested in verses so full of figurative language, metaphors, etc. Kinda like being all over the map here. Pulling verses from a wide variety of verses. I don't even have an opinion. I KNOW what the plain language of Scripture SAYS and I believe that. Never. I KNOW what 1 Cor 15:23, Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 SAY. One singular resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. Period. Your opinion violates all these verses. You haven't proven any of these are your so-called "corporate man-child". I'm fully aware of faithful believers who will be richly rewarded. But there is no "early rapture" to heaven for anyone. Or the Bible would have plainly made that clear, and you have no clear verses.

There is nothing in this or any other verse that says that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation. And 1 Cor 1:21 is very clear about what pleases God: For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. We have established that you believe Calvinist theology. The people of Israel were chosen by God, yet reading through the OT it is clear that a whole lot of them were never saved. So, I don't agree with your blanket statement. And this issue is that there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses who He will save. The Bible is crystal clear that there IS a condition, and that condition is believing in the finished work of Christ on the cross. 1 Cor 1:21 The Bible is clear here as well. Abraham BELIEVED God and He (God) imputed righteousness to him (Abraham). Rom 4:3 - What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Gal 3:6 - So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” James 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. The faithfulness of Christ in going to the cross was for humanity, everyone. And that saves no one. Everyone is saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. I will state it the way the Bible does: Eph 1:4 "God chose us (believers. . . to be holy and blameless (service). v.19 defines "us" as "us who BELIEVE" Yes Very misleading. Christ died for everyone and the Bible says so in plain language. Since God is omniscient, He has always known who will believe and who will REFUSE to believe. So God has always known who He will save. In fact, "God is pleased . . . to save those who BELIEVE", per 1 Cor 1:21. Absolutely NOT. Believing on Jesus Christ comes from the heart, per Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Easy peasy. I know what Scripture SAYS about salvation. Receiving eternal life DEPENDS on believing the gospel promise. John 3:15 - that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” john 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. Since man can REFUSE to believe, he is JUST AS ABLE to believe. Or prove the opposite; refusing isn't a choice between options.

Did Spurgeon know that election is to service? That is what is written in the Bible. Absolutely! And the Bible is quite clear as to HOW God determines who will be saved. 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. The verse doesn't say "God was pleased WITH the foolishness of what was preached", but THROUGH it. iow, God was pleased to save those who believe. It is and has always been about choice. The fact that the Bible says that men REFUSE to believe proves that they ARE ABLE to believe. Refusing is only an option when there is the ability/capacity do DO something. Does it make sense or sound logical that a quadriplegic can REFUSE to get out of bed on their own power, when they DON'T have the ability or capacity to do it in the first place? Of course not. That would be idiotic.

Rather, what is not seen by you are any verses that support your claim (opinion). And I've been asking and asking. This is blatantly untrue. Absolutely the quality of the believer's walk has EVERYTHING to do with the quality/quantity of their eternal reward. I cannot imagine where you thought I believe what you claim here as my view or "assumption". You aren't even close to understanding my beliefs, even though I've been very clear about them. So far, so good. 👍 Nope. Please quote any verse that supports (says) what you say. The resurrection IS the transfiguration of the body. We have NO such details. Rather, we have this, regarding what will happen at His coming: 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. The "position of honor" will vary widely among believers. Some won't even have a "position of honor". Just another opinion that is wrong about what I believe. Which I'm correcting as I wade through your post. There will absolutely a huge difference between reward of believers at the Bema. Please adjust your viewpoint about what I believe before you post another highly inaccurate post.

Oh, do you mean when you gave your opinion? Rev 12:5 refutes your opinions. The "man-child+ wil rule the nations with an iron scepter. That is none other than the King, the Lord Jesus Christ. Not some corporate something or other that you opine.

Like an offer that is received. I think you forgot the free gift offer. Think Titus 2:11 Quite true. Until one realizes that they are lost and unsaved, why would they think they need to be saved? The only time a believer isn't sinning is when he/she is in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1:9) and filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18). When a person is filled with the Spirit, 1 John 3:9 applies. But, when a believer is grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they are out of fellowship and NOT filled with the Spirit.

lol. You and I have on this for quite a few posts now, and you haven't ever been this confident about having clearly worded verses about being chosen for salvation The Greek word is a different word (even different root) than the election verbs. Further, the point of v.13 isn't being chosen for salvation period. But God choosing the METHOD of salvation: "THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth (faith)". That is what the verse is about. iow, it is God's choice about how one will be saved: The conjunction "and" between 'sanctification' and 'belief' has a wide semantic field, and can be translated as "EVEN". So "sanctification of the Spirit" is "belief in the truth". This clearly isn't about salvation. Yes, God chose the nation or people of Israel, but reading the OT clearly shows that many in that nation were not saved. Peter was writing to Jews, and noting the fact that God had chosen the people of Israel as His own. Not about salvation. Still not about salvation. Many Jews in the OT were not saved. Thank you for noticing being chosen is about SERVICE. Another very clear verse about being elected to service: "elect according to the foreknowledge of God, through sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thess 2:13, which is belief in the truth) UNTO (for) obedience (SERVICE). When the adjective is used, it provides NO information as to the PURPOSE of said election. Paul was referring to Jews here anyway. There is no election in this verse. The closest we come is "called" which means "to invite" in the Greek. Another adjective which doesn't add anything to understanding the purpose of election. It's simply a description of believers. No verse says that God causes people to believe. Rather, Rom 10:1o says that man believes from the heart. Proving that believing comes from within ourselves.

I never said "everything" as you exaggerate here. Of course there is no election or spiritual growth UNTIL there is salvation. But I have been responding to your posts about election being to salvation, which you STILL HAVE NOT shown from Scripture. v.28 refers to spiritually mature believers (they love God). v.29 refers to ALL believers being predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, which will be fulfilled at the Second Advent and the resurrection, where all believers will receive a body just like His. 1 John 3:2 - Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. I don't think you really understand what the Bible teaches. The gift of God is eternal life, given on the basis of faith in His Son. John 3:15,16, 5:24. Only when "faith" is a noun is it a gift of God. Certainly God wrote the Bible for our benefit and instruction. So yes, that's a gift. But the action of believing (a verb) is NOT a gift in ANY sense. It is a response to God's offer of eternal life, the real gift.