FreeGrace

Not when the human spirit is dead (non functioning). You are assuming a dead human spirit cannot exist. Well, we have plenty of evidence of dead human bodies still existing, even thousands of years. So you have no case for a disappearing human spirit. Doesn't matter what any of us "think". That is only opinion. We must stay with Scripture and what it says. When a person dies, the body goes through decomposition, but that doesn't mean they disappear, since bones that are very old are still being found. Death doesn't mean disappearance. We cannot make a parallel between the physical and spiritual, since the Bible doesn't. So any claim being made is only an opinion. Spiritual birth is clearly states in Eph 2:5 - made us alive (human spirit) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (spiritual death) —it is by grace you have been saved. Yes, so let's just stay with Scripture. What we "prefer" is just opinion. And you seem to be assuming that "in death it ceases to exist". We certainly know that the body doesn't 'cease to exist' when it dies. It very slowly decomposes, but bones are still being found that are thousands of years old, proving that your opinion doesn't hold up. The verse says nothing of what you say here. Eph 4:24 - and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. This refers to the human spirit, where the Holy Spirit resides in us. Where else could He reside, since the body is corrupt, according to the Bible? And the "new self" simply refers to the "new life" of the human spirit, which has beeen "made alive" at regeneration, per Eph 2:5 - - made us alive (human spirit) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (spiritual death) —it is by grace you have been saved. Wow. That is a stunning statement, given the clarity of Eph 2:8, which specifically says that we are saved THROUGH FAITH. And you think that "faity is NOT a requirement"?? Really? Everyone is free to think whatever they want, but Matt 25:46 is more than clear that an eternity in the LOF is a punishment. How can ceasing to exist be a punishment, when the person (consciousness, etc) doesn't exist? Impossible. There are no verses that support your opinion. The Bible teaches that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected. So the bodies aren't "destroyed". Only the unsaved will experience another physical death, when they will be cast into the LOF which is called the "second death", because their still mortal resurrected physical body will certainly die again. The Bible absolutely disagrees with what you "hold" to. Again, just another opinion. Adam and Eve were created "good", as all of creation was called. But they were free to make choices, and chose to disobey God. They became sinners. You are free to "hold" to any opinion you have, but I hold to what the Bible says. Matt 25:46 clearly indicates that an eternity in the LOF is punishment. So, can you explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist? This paragraph is rather convoluted and impossible to understand. The concept is very simple and clear. Adam/Eve were created with a living human spirit. When they disobeyed, their human spirit DIED. That doesn't mean it disappeared, as you opine. Romans 5 teaches that the sin nature is passed by the father (Adam). So everyone is born spiritually dead and in need of being born again spiritually, which occurs when a person puts their trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Your claim that faith isn't a requirement for the spiritual re-birth is shocking and totally against orthodox Christianity. It is faith that is at the central in Christianity. Is this an agreement with what I said? Because the rest of your post clearly indicates you don't agree with it. I am looking forward to your explanation of how "eternal punishment" from Matt 25:46 can occur if the person's soul (consciousness) doesn't exist. I hope you'll answer.

It seems logical that while the human spirit died "on the day" Adam ate the fruit, it didn't just go away or disappear. It is that humans are born with a living soul and body, but a dead human spirit. So, Adam was created trichotomous (in the image of the Triune God), but all humans are born dichotomous (soul and body alive, but dead spirit). The words "born AGAIN", "RE-generation" and "made alive" all point to the human spirit being given life again. But not a "new" spirit, but rather, the dead spirit being made alive once again. So, because of this, all humans need to be born AGAIN, which is through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. However, it is clear that the beast and his false prophet will have been in the lake of fire for 1,000 years BEFORE Satan will be. Rev 20:10. And "they" (beast, FP, Satan) "will be tormented day and night for ever and ever". So we clearly know that 2 humans will be tormented for eternity. Immediately following is about the Great White Throne Judgment, where ALL unbelievers will be judged, and then cast into the same LOF. Why would they get less than the beast and FP? Rather, they would get what all who have preceded them into the LOF got. Notice that the verse onlhy says that God "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". It doesn't say that He has ever or ever will do that. There's a big difference. The LOF is also called 'the second death'. Since all unbelievers will be resurrected in order to appear before the GWT judgment (Dan 12:2, John 5:24, Acts 24:15) what dies twice will be their physical still mortal resurrected body. The soul, like the souls of the beast and FP, will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever". The conversion refers to the NEW birth, or RE-generation of the human spirit when the person puts their trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Believers are "new creatures" (2 Cor 5:17) precisely because of becoming trichotomous because of being born (spiritually) again. The soul, as you accurately noted at the beginning of the OP, contains the intellect, emotions, conscience and will. All of that will be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever'. If the soul ceases to exist, there will be no emotions or consciousness. And that contradicts Scripture. Matt 25:46 - Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. If the soul ceases to exist, there can be no 'eternal punishment' and Matt 25:46 cannot be true. The word eternal/everlasting would have no meaning in such a case.

I finally decided to read this thread to see what's been posted. I once planned to make a list of every verse that clearly indicates the impossibility of Jesus being the "only God". But there are just too many verses. Finally, the whole issue of who "God" is can be easily understood from the first chapter and verse of the Bible. Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth. elohim: God, gods, divine beings, judges Original Word: אֱלהִים Part of Speech: Noun Masculine Transliteration: elohiym Pronunciation: eh-lo-HEEM Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem') Definition: God, gods, divine beings, judges Meaning: gods, the supreme God, magistrates, a superlative Word Origin: Derived from the root אֵל (El), meaning "god" or "power." So, the very first refence to God is in the plural form. Then, to solidify that fact, we have a discussion: Gen 1:26 - Then God (Elohim) said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” Gen 1:27 - So God (Elohim) created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. So, v.26 is obviously a discussion BETWEEN Persons. In v.27, the singular pronoun "him" (singular) emphasizes the fact that "God" is One in unity and character. I don't know how the "oneness" ilk explain Gen 1, and I don't care. The obvious is glaringly obvious. In the NT, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all said to be God. So Gen 1:26,27 easily refers to the fact that God made man with 3 parts: body, soul and spirit, which is plainly stated in 1 Thess 5:23. So, the "oneness" people do not believer or understand the Bible.

English Standard Version Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— Berean Standard Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” Berean Literal Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree"-- King James Bible Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: New King James Version Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” ), New American Standard Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— NASB 1995 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us— for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE “— NASB 1977 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— Legacy Standard Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— Amplified Bible Christ purchased our freedom and redeemed us from the curse of the Law and its condemnation by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS [crucified] ON A TREE (cross)”— Christian Standard Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. Holman Christian Standard Bible Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed. American Standard Version Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Contemporary English Version But Christ rescued us from the Law's curse, when he became a curse in our place. This is because the Scriptures say that anyone who is nailed to a tree is under a curse. English Revised Version Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: GOD'S WORD® Translation Christ paid the price to free us from the curse that God's laws bring by becoming cursed instead of us. Scripture says, "Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed." Good News Translation But by becoming a curse for us Christ has redeemed us from the curse that the Law brings; for the scripture says, "Anyone who is hanged on a tree is under God's curse." International Standard Version The Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!" Majority Standard Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: ?Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.? NET Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree") New Heart English Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree," Webster's Bible Translation Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Accursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Weymouth New Testament Christ has purchased our freedom from the curse of the Law by becoming accursed for us--because "Cursed is every one who is hanged upon a tree." World English Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” Literal Standard Version Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us, for it has been written: “Cursed is everyone who is hanging on a tree,” Berean Literal Bible Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree"-- Young's Literal Translation Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, 'Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,' Smith's Literal Translation Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having been a curse for us: for it has been written, Cursed every one hanging upon a tree: Douay-Rheims Bible Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written: Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Catholic Public Domain Version Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, since he became a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is anyone who hangs from a tree.” New American Bible Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,” New Revised Standard Version Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— Only 1 out of all the English translations on biblehub.com usede "pole". Do you claim to have more understanding of the Greek language than all the translators who used "tree"? Matt 17:35 - When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. stauroó: To crucify Original Word: σταυρόω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: stauroó Pronunciation: stow-ROH-o Phonetic Spelling: (stow-ro'-o) Definition: To crucify Meaning: I fix to the cross, crucify; fig: I destroy, mortify. Word Origin: Derived from the Greek noun σταυρός (stauros), meaning "cross." You have no point. Jesus was hung on a cross. Which is why EVERY depiction of Jesus being crucified, plus ALL the depictions of after His crucifixion and body taken down is a CROSS. NEVER a pole.

Nor did I. You brought up your father's death, which is what I was referring to. But has NOTHING to do about a pole vs cross. The importance is the fact that He paid the sin debt in full for everyone.

Only the fact that John 19:36 says: For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” A quote from Psa 34:20. So what? Jesus had to die BEFORE the cross killed Him, because He would have lasted long enough, like the other 2, to have His legs broken to hasten death. So AFTER paying the sin debt for everyone, He dismissed His spirit in order to prevent His bones from being broken. He was in charge the WHOLE TIME. John 10:17,18 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life —only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” Now, that should end this irrelevant discussion, and let's get back to "selective rapture", the title of this thread.

Just trying to get you to clarify your thoughts. I still have no idea why you are so hung up on how Jesus died. In my long years on earth, you are the only one who has mentioned a pole. Do you belong to a "pole" group or something? Jesus died by dismissing His spirit. It is that clear in the Bible. He did not die from crucifixion, or he would have still been alive, as were the othert 2, and had His legs broken, like they did, in order to hasten death. But that would have violated prophecy.

That is exactly what I posted. Which was in regard to this: On 1/29/2025 at 2:24 PM, Locust said: as for Jesus knowing he was done is little different than it was for my father . in the same minute that he died he said he was dying. What in the world are you trying to say here? And what does your father have to do with Jesus's death?

The "blood and water" that came out from the spear was actually blood and serum, because after death the blood separates from the serum. It was proof that Jesus had died. Are you going to answer my last post?

Well, you keep making a big deal about dying on a pole is quicker than on a cross. And Jesus was already dead when the soldiers came to break the legs of all 3. Huh????>? I guess there's no use in more discussion. Seems you aren't even on a page. Nothing you posted above is relevant to Jesus when He died. He "gave up" His spirit. That means volition was involved, as in He chose to die so He could go to "preach to the spirits in prison". Or are you not familiar with that? 1 Peter 3:19 - in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

Oh, about zero. This is about as clear as mud. Do you believe that the 2 thieves were hung on a cross and Jesus on a pole? If so, so what? Please TELL ME. Jesus dismissed His spirit. That is how He died. He did that right after He said "tetelestai", which means "paid in full". He had accomplished His mission and left, as He had other things to do, like "preach to the spirits in prison". I guess your 'point' is that He died because of how He was crucified.

Who cares? What difference does it make? None.

My only intention is to provide truth. What is the point in any of this? Of course the Bible doesn't include every detail. So what? You're still not making any significant point yet. You've made a claim about Jesus being on a pole, even though there are NO such depictions anywhere. And there is graffiti dated near the end of the first century that depicts Jesus on a cross, not a pole, with a worshiper kneeling before the cross. And Jesus with a donkey head. So obviously it was mocking the crucifixion. And you tried to explain it as "the church" being dishonest. And yet, you STILL to this day, have NOT explained why a pole makes any difference at all. Much less, any evidence for your view. So, if all you want to discuss are details that the Bible left out, I'm not interested. Either get to the point, please, or this conversation is over.

The point of 1 Cor 14 is that no one benefits from hearing but not understanding someone speaking in a language they don't know, except the speaker. So if there is no one with the gift of interpretation, the speaker should only speak to God (in prayer). I don't know. I've not been to churches where people claim they are speaking in tongues. From others who have heard people doing it, they have described it as babbling. Paul said that speaking in tongues edifies the person speaking, but not anyone else, unless there is someone who has the gift of interpretation, and explains what was said, so that others can benefit (be edified). Like the miracle and healing gifts, that were common during the first century, and were used to give credibility to the gospel message, I believe the gift of tongues was a way to instruct the congregations before the written canon was completed. So, once the canon was complete, the need for such spiritual gifts was no longer needed. Without these spiritual gifts, the establishment of churches in the first century would have been much slower.

From your posts, I've noticed that you don't see a lot of things that are in the Bible.

OK: for the one who has died is freed from sin. So your answer is "yes", everyone in humanity will go to heaven. Except you have totally missed the entire context of Romans. Paul didn't write that epistle to unbelievers but to believers, those who are in Christ. I suggest that you read ch 1 to understand to whom Paul was writing, and then study ch 6 quite a bit more carefully. Oh, and read Rev 20:10-15 to see what happens to those who never believed and therefore never given the gift of eternal life. If you do these things, your perspective should change dramatically.

I see no more reason to continue a discussion with you. Nothing of what you've posted is biblical.

That would be total blasphemy. Do you believe in universalism, whereby every person will eventually be in heaven? Just asking.

Every Bible. I can't even imagine where your questions are coming from.

I did. Romans 4. Apparently you haven't read it.

Please stop. My sides are hurting. 😂

It seems to me that you have quite an over-active imagination. The graffiti was mocking those who worship Jesus. And you claim that graffiti came from the church of that time???!!!

Sorry but this isn't even close to the truth. EVERYONE who has put their faith in the Messiah/Christ IS saved. From Adam forward. The Bible doesn't refer to saved people as "the elect". The bodies of everyone who has died are in the ground. It is the bodies that will be resurrected. The saved at the Second Advent and the unsaved at the end of the Millennial Reign, just before the GWT judgment. ps: where are you getting your information from?

Yes, it does. But v.14 forbids speaking in tongues in church if there is no one to interpret.

You're very welcome! It seems to me the person speaking doesn't even understand what is being said, based on 1 Cor 14:14 - For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. That's why the person needs to pray for understanding, in order to speak in church.