Liese

Thanks much for sharing!

If a husband has authority over the wife, and the wife is to submit to the husband in everything, is mutual friendship, and best friendship, authentically possible? Jesus was at some point able to call the disciples his friends; mature believers are able to be considered friends of God. Can those same hierarchical relationships similarly apply between Christian husbands and wives? I've heard it stated that these examples, or at least the marriage relationship, which contains the directive for one to always to submit themselves to the other, isn't quite equal, and thus contradicts the ability to develop a truly mutual friendship. I can understand friendship up to a certain level to be possible, certainly, and can even see fully mutual friendship ability, even if one has continual ultimate authority, depending on how they operate in it. But I can also see the wife feeling ultimately unequal, though she knows she's an equal heir.

What is biblical female and male / masculinity and femininity at core anyway - anyone have biblical references they're willing to share/debate?

I need understanding of what biblical female and male were created to be at core - the characteristics - rather, aspects of God - that He uniquely poured more of into one over the other. I'd say those might be considered as true biblical masculinity/femininity rather than the jumbled mess that culture has created for what the world has taught those should look like.

My hubby's been sharing the past few days seeking to go counterculture to the cultural genders - he sees how the culture affects our 'genderhood' and seeks the 'neither male nor female' to the degree that it aligns with the culture of Heaven vs. this world.

I'm a woman who highly appreciates being respected, by the way, because I don't read 'love' in 'love' unless it comes with a solid level of respect. Disrespected = unloved to me.

I believe when Ephesians speaks of wives needing to respect their husbands, and husbands love their wives, God was pre-cognizant of how heavy culture would play a foundational role. Men aren't socially taught to love, they're taught to respect, because they hang around the other guys; and so, to keep up appearances with the guys, a man also needs his wife to respect him in public, and private, so that he can feel good about how he's being treated, which is to say, treated in the manner he can go tell his guy friends the things they value hearing. Respecting hubby is step one, so that the way can be paved for him to then see beyond 'respect'. The greatest of these is 'love', the thing women tend to believe we know better, and what the 'head' most needs to learn (sacrificial love), which is tough for him to see clearly to until he gets the base culturally ingrained need of 'respect' met first, so he can be in a safe space to go deeper. Forgive me if I've gone sexist here (that'd also be cultural of me, eh?). Respect is different within the cultures and within the man. So if it were truly a biological/physiological need, its certainly needed by both genders in equal measure, and there is a core way of doing that which is consistent for both. However the cultural part is where things get jacked in terms of what it is to respect - people's mixed notions get mixed in there, such as, 'I'm offended if you call me ma'am' and 'It's disrespectful if you don't call me ma'am'; or 'It's disrespectful to ask a lady's age' when that's really just pride. My 8 cents.

Indeed!

I've learned in the last year that, opposite to what I've believed all these years about personality being different from character, personality is the expression of our character, and character is based on our current level of development based on things we presently believe, understand, 'know' experientially as a part of who we are. For example, someone is characterized by a 'shy' personality, among other characteristics. Shyness is actually a function of a set of beliefs about how we think we're viewed by others (typically some degree of 'less than' they), how we view others (typically as intimidating, in the case of shy folks), and how equipped we believe ourselves to be to combat the fearful or anxiousness-causing things may come at us. We can flip that for someone who's characterized as 'loud' or 'outgoing'. The combinations/degrees of the sets of beliefs are different for folks, which is why some folks can say, 'I'm shy in these contexts, but not in others', as example, because the differing contexts come with beliefs about what those contexts may be comprised of. Whereas, if our characters were perfected, we knew we were thoroughly, equally loved/accepted by God and were equipped with all we need, none of us would have shyness, or propensities to overseek attention, or feel that we're imposing, feel exposed in front of 20 people vs. 100 or 1, etc.

The bible references God creating male and female, which are both aspects of his character - but does the bible or God ever mention femininity or masculinity, or refer to those concepts by any other term(s)? By male and female, I understand those to mean how God biologically created our bodies and our biological wiring differently - i.e. body chemistry (different levels of testosterone/estrogen, dopamine, etc), which subsequently causes different brain processing, so that we think different ways in order to complement, representing and operating together in the differing aspects of God, such that men and women require equal value. But I don't see the bible pointing out socially taught behaviors - femininity/masculinity - that must go along with the biology God created. The full understanding of what femininity is, based on Wikipedia's definition: "Femininity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with women and girls. Femininity can be understood as socially constructed, and there is also some evidence that some behaviors considered feminine are influenced by both cultural factors and biological factors." The 'attributes' part of the definition of femininity I take to refer to what God physically created, and the resulting behaviors come out of the physical chemistry God constructed in us. But take the 'socially constructed' pieces from the definition; and also take the 'roles generally associated with women' - I believe we are to understand each other's different wiring, because I find that men and women work against those in each other, not recognizing them as aspects of God that they don't have/have as much of - but the social/cultural/role elements seem to hugely muddy up who men and women are 'supposed' to be. E.g. masculinity/femininity as social constructions caused toxic masculinity and femininity. Masculinity began defining men as 'masculine' strictly by 'not being like a woman - don't be like a woman, and that makes you a man'. Because that's how men were taught to be masculine, not only are they opposed to exhibiting any characteristics stemming from the subsequent behaviors of women's attributes (which isn't something that men actually need to try not to do/be), but men learned not to understand what really makes a woman female, and were trained not to 'like' the femaleness of women. Men were, however, trained to desire and seek after some of the socially/culturally constructed attributes of women, i.e. cultural beauty, sexiness, etc. Anywho - does the bible tell us what a woman or man are 'supposed' to be like? The question highly interests me, because I'd like to know at core how to really see my husband.

I was about to post a question in one of the forums (once I figure out which one is appropriate for the question): The bible references God creating male and female, which are both aspects of his character - but does the bible or God ever mention femininity or masculinity, or refer to those concepts by any other term(s)? By male and female, I understand those to mean how God biologically created our bodies and our biological wiring differently - i.e. body chemistry (different levels of testosterone/estrogen, dopamine, etc), which subsequently causes different brain processing, so that we think different ways in order to complement, representing and operating together in the differing aspects of God, such that men and women require equal value. But I don't see the bible pointing out socially taught behaviors - femininity/masculinity - that must go along with the biology God created. The full understanding of what femininity is: "Femininity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with women and girls. Femininity can be understood as socially constructed, and there is also some evidence that some behaviors considered feminine are influenced by both cultural factors and biological factors." (Wikipedia) The 'attributes' part of the definition of femininity I take to refer to what God physically created, and the resulting behaviors come out of the physical chemistry God constructed in us. But take the 'socially constructed' pieces from the definition; and also take the 'roles generally associated with women' -I believe we are to understand each other's different wiring, because I find that men and women work against those in each other, not recognizing them as aspects of God that they don't have/have as much of - but the rest of that muddies up who men and women are 'supposed' to be. E.g. masculinity/femininity as social constructions actually caused toxic masculinity, wherein a man is defined as 'masculine' strictly by 'not being anything like a woman - don't be like a woman, and that's what makes you a man'. Because that's how men were taught to be masculine, not only are they opposed to exhibiting any characteristics stemming from the subsequent behaviors of women's attributes (which isn't something that men actually need to try not to be), men learn not to understand what really makes a woman female, and trained not to 'like' the femaleness of women. Men are, however, trained to desire and seek after some of the socially/culturally constructed attributes of women, i.e. cultural beauty, sexiness, etc. I share all to say that I think the 'rules' for husbands toward wives and wives toward husbands are so mixed by culturalism, and thus they don't equivocally address what's real about who the husband as male and wife as female are. The rules do not work with my husband.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response, Jayne. I’m intaking the comments, and will further seek the scriptures shared to see what God is saying to me. To clarify what I think may be justifications from the members desiring the spiritual covering arrangement: —I’m the new step person to the family, in the marriage now under a couple years. The children are adults; I didn’t share in the mothering of them. I’m not called a ‘stepmom’ nor viewed as part of their covering. The arrangement is mutually desired (no dictation, I’m certain), was agreed upon prior to me meeting my spouse, and it’s now strongly highlighted due to recent circumstances. I’m desiring to speak my position on it, from as close a view as I can obtain from God/His word, since it will affect much within my life.

That is very kind of you to share this, @com7fy8